Templar DPS Poll - How are you dealing with the Biting Jabs nerf?

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

The move nerf wasn't intended as it is despite it being a ninja edit later added. It was meant to be an internal cd, which I could totally handle. That universal one though, hell no.

Also the move wasn't overpowered, not when you compare it to sorcs and especially dk class skills, they're actually pretty identical.

Lilth · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

Lalai wrote: »

As I've said in other postings.. that isn't to say that Templars are amazing, or out DPS other classes, or come close to the DPS of Sorc/DK. Saying they're unplayable though, is simply not true.

What I have gotten from the posts is that if you want to play as pure melee it's impossible with the nerf because it is locking you out of using any other ability in that skill line during the cool down (correct me if I am wrong). Like you, I have almost the same play style with my templar so I don't notice it hardly at all. I can see where it's a problem if you aren't built around caster dps as a templar but play as all melee.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

Thank you. Seriously thank you, so much

Lalai · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

Lilth wrote: »

Lalai wrote: »

As I've said in other postings.. that isn't to say that Templars are amazing, or out DPS other classes, or come close to the DPS of Sorc/DK. Saying they're unplayable though, is simply not true.

What I have gotten from the posts is that if you want to play as pure melee it's impossible with the nerf because it is locking you out of using any other ability in that skill line. Like you, I have almost the same play style with my templar so I don't notice it hardly at all. I can see where it's a problem if you aren't built around caster dps as a templar but play as all melee.

Right, personally I haven't hit that issue. I've been able to stop the animation mid-cast to block a heavy attack I see incoming.. and since I am constantly circling targets I kill, the conal aoe's and such are never a problem. There is a slight delay (which again, the dev tracker shows posts saying they're reverting) after the skill finishes before I can use another skill, but it hasn't prevented me from either moving out of damage or blocking a hit. Maybe it does to others, I dunno. I just think all these things are rather silly when Zeni has said they're undoing the delay and instead going with an increase in magicka cost.

Update: Looking at the dev tracker today, it seems the post has been pushed out of it by other recent postings. The response was in the initial thread asking if biting jabs was nerfed, if anyone was actually interested in that.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

Lilth · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

@Khivas_Carrick‌
I hope they fix it. They have reverted back on a few changes that were over the top since the patch so there is a little bit of hope that they will fix this. I don't see how they intended for it to work as it is now for melee. I don't play a melee templar but from what I have read, it sounds painful now =x

Mortosk · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

So.......notice a trend here? Everyone that's ok with these changes/not ok but are still playing are either using staffs or nontemplar skills.

Ggnore zos.

Ggnore

Ya I probably should have put a 5th option in that said "The change doesn't effect me, because I use a a destro staff..." or something to that effect. Poll was really intended for melee DPS templars, my bad.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

All melee that isn't dual wielding kinda sucks. Stamina builds aren't as good as magicka ones, but that has nothing to do with class balance but rather weapon and attribute balance

someuser · May 2014

I don't like the changes, but I will continue playing my Templar.

LordEcks wrote: »

Class based AoE Damage breakdown:

Templar
Restoring Light
None. This isn't even a damage tree.

Aedric Spear
Puncturing Strikes (and its morphs) - Cone AoE Damage.
Explosive Charge (Focused Charge Morph) - Target based AoE damage at point of impact.
Spear Shards (and its morphs) - Placable target based AoE damage.
Sun Shield - Point Blank AoE damage. Extra damgage at effect end with Blazing Shield morph.
Radial Sweep (Ultimate) - Point Blank AoE Damage.

Dawn's Wrath
Reflective Light (Sun Fire Morph) - Long ranged target based AoE
Solar Barrage (Solar Flare Morph) - Point Blank AoE Damage.
Unstable Core (Eclipse Morph) - Target based AoE damage at effect end.
Searing Light (Blinding Light Morph) - Point Blank AoE damage.
Nova (Ultiamte) - Placable target Based AoE damage.

Other non class available options include:
Fire Rune & Meteor from Mages Guild line.
Dawnbreaker from Fighters Guild line.
Undaunted Necrotic Orb undaunted line.
Shatter Soul Ultiamte Soul Magic line.
Virtually ever weapon skill line other than 1H Shield or Resto staff has at least 1 AoE attack.

So my question to you is this... in what world are Templars missing AoE? Or is it that you simply do not like any of these options?

Edit: Up until nearly VR levels you can simply faceroll your way through the entire game with Reflective Light spam from range with any magicka based build.

Literally stand at max range and spam Reflective light 5 or 6 times. You will finish this before any of the mobs get close to you thanks to the inherent snare. Also be sure to cursor target different mobs on each recast so that all of them also get the DoT effect too and not just the direct damage component.

I have yet to find any group of 3 mobs that can survive this. Boss mobs will survive it, with none of their helpers in tact and maybe at half life. At this time you can consider using any of the other 4 buttons plus ultimate on your bar.

@LordEcks great post, I mostly agree. Plenty of great AoE and Bleed options available for Templars.

I voted that I don't like the changes, but will continue to play the Templar class. As LordEcks stated in the above quoted post, pre-vet (I never played vet content so pre-vet is all I know anyhow) Templars can faceroll most mobs out there and solo pretty much everything (I know I do).

HOWEVER, I dont like the fact that after I use bitting jabs, there is a "cool down" where I can't seem to use my normal bow attack. I never personally spammed bitting jabs, but I do use it as a finishing move or when I get swarmed. Not being able to immediately use my OTHER abilities (I can only confirm the bow attack) really sucks and I don't like it at all. If they just wanted to put the cool down on bitting jabs and only bitting jabs (so you can't spam it) I would be 100% ok with it personally.

Kind of like the shield bash nerf, bitting jabs should not be able to be the one and only attack ability one uses...

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

Those aren't bad options but they're also not as good add biting jabs were, nor were they said in mind of a guy swinging a weapon in a stamina build, so I go back to my previous statement that melee and stamina builds suck and that needs to change

jquestb16_ESO2 · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

As I have said before in other posts the issue isn't with the biting jab cool down the problem is when you use it causes all your skills on your bar to go into cooldown so if you use it you can't do anything after you cast it for 1.5-2 seconds.

Garetth · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

Tootall2186 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

Tootall2186 wrote: »

Use your other utilities at our disposal to make up the dps difference. Then learn to play with more than one skill.

Would you mind posting your melee DPS build? Which ability did you substitute for biting jabs? Or are you still using it, and just coping with the 1.2 seconds of vulnerability after each cast?

I still use it. But I wasn't one of the people who would run in and spam the ability in the first place. I always used a multitude of our skills, mages guild, fighters guild, weapon skills depending on the area I'm in or group sizes I'm going against.

I'm mainly a healer but with my build I can easily switch between dps or heals. Wearing all light armor, and being used to playing an SD engi in gw2 over the past 1 1/2 years, I've been used to ranged/semi close ranged combat and using skills for mobility as well as dps.

I just recently started using aurora javelin and reflective light coupled with volcanic rune with hilariously fun success then impulse if I have some close ranges troubles.

If you want to play solo in Vet levels it was our only viable/sustainable dps so whether you used it or not or you think other skills replace it is n/a. Your opinion means nothing. Now move along.

Garetth · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Queripel · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

I never used it at all to vR2 on my 2 hand melee heavy armor Templar. I did however finally have enough of it with being mana and stamina deprived when they upped the difficulty in 1.1.2. - My Templar was not capable of surviving any fights.

I haven't been able to get back since as I'm suffering from DCs and 301 errors.

Frustrating.

I'm not redoing another character. If they fix the Templars lack of mana and stamina regen to a level of parity with other classes and they make weapon based melee styles competitive with mana powers and they fix the game stopping bugs and if I'm not captivated by another better more stable game I may return one day.

The crap part is I have almost 3 months of sub left here. I stupidly bought 3 months more just prior to 1.1.2 thinking things would be getting better not worse. I feel cheated. This game is the buggiest POS I have ever bought in all my gaming experience.

At least Wildstar opens on Saturday. That game is both fun and works lol.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

You know the game is still fun but I can't say you're wrong here either

LordEcks · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

TL;DR - Annoying nerf, hope it gets fixed. Until it does if this is breaking you then consider other options, they exist.

Garetth wrote: »

This is total BS! You have never played a Templar you piece of ***.

Was debating whether to dignify that with a response... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your age isnt any higher than your VR level.

My post was directed towards @zeuseason 's comment that he felt there was a lack of AoE in Templar. I personally find that Templar has more than most. Not all of that is straight up AoE I'm aware.. most of it was provided for references, but there are enough options for straight up AoE DPS that Biting Jabs is not the end all be all attack.

Now with that out of the way, I apologize for somewhat going off of the topic. I personally think the Biting Jabs nerf sucks, despite the fact that I dont use it. I respec'd after the update to a melee build to test out what people were talking about. The delay is there, and it is annoying, but unless your a die-hard min/maxer I don't feel its class breakingly bad. Your mileage may vary.

In VR content the 1 second delay could easily get you killed if you have an over-reliance on too many BJs. My point again is that there are other options. I havent the patience (or desire) to prove or disprove whether or not BJ spam is the only mathmatical DPS solution. Especially not in a game where (at least in my opinion) per second DPS means far less than individual survivability / mechanics.

For the record I have two templars (amongst other characters). One of which is my main.

Anvos · May 2014

I don't like the changes, but I will continue playing my Templar.

I'll put don't like, but I don't think that a class should be propped up or unviable due to one ability and NB and Templar need a look at to bring them up to par.

dcincali · May 2014

I will level up/play another class while the nerf is in effect, since I can't play my Templar effectively anymore.

I have a vr12 melee temp and can tell you from personal experience the "aoe" in our class is laughable... I run him as a healer more often then melee now due to the lock out. Not what I intended to play him as, was more forced into the roll since the lock out. All these other temps running around with destro staves are just wannabe mages.

Nox_Aeterna · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

Already unsubbed and 10 days to go.

If they fix it before the end , i will resub , if not , i will give them the months they seem to need to balance this game right.

Elad13 · May 2014

I don't like the changes, but I will continue playing my Templar.

Isn't AOE = area of effect? So a attack that targets 1 or more enemies isn't that different then like impulse that just blankets the entire area and can hit like 10 enemies? I play a DW templar...Red gaurd...I loved the sword and board but they killed that entire line for me as being effective. I still have some AoE from mages guild. ..but that whole target area is not like just running in the middle of a group and hitting the skill like 8 times over and over...so could someone explain how all these templar skills that target 1 or 2 enemies is AOE? I guess I just have the worst build ever but now at v9 with 3 respect because of nerds it's just too late to change...now I know end game if just other play through my other 3 builds just hold no interest to me to get so high.

ExiledKhallisi · May 2014

I don't like the changes, but I will continue playing my Templar.

Biting jabs was not even close to our best skill.

ExiledKhallisi · May 2014

I don't like the changes, but I will continue playing my Templar.

I kill 3enemies at range before they get to me using the first skill in the dawns wrath line and aurora javelin...I thought biting jabs was rubbish.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

Allow me to repeat something that's been said and repeated at least 26 times thus far in this thread: For ranged Templars or people that used Staffs, the changes didn't mean *** for them. For us melee folk, we got pooped on after being pissed on. Tis not fun thine friend.

traigusb14_ESO2 · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

Fighting Sword and board VR2 almost 3. Don't use biting jabs. I may have morphed it to whatever one people don't use anyway.

I almost never use "must use" builds anyway, so when it became the "must have" skill I stopped using it at like level 20.

Wraithseer_ESO · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

The nerf coincided with my templar going ranged, so i didn't felt it really. I still use 2h build sometimes, and use biting jabs. It will be better when they fix it.
In the meantime, look at the spear shards, guys. It does relatively good damage, controls 1 target, and even can be used as single-target stunlock with blazing spear morph.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2014

I will give Zenimax until my sub expires to revert it.

My 2H sword swings do more damage that Spear Shards, which is actually impresive all things considered. Also it's bad to use imho because this is an action RPG and that move requires archaic point and click controls, similar to my DWrath Ult. Frankly, if it was an aimed move similar to how a bow works, I'd spam the hell out of it for *** and giggles alone.

reagen_lionel · May 2014

I really dont even use bitting jabs that often. Im not really an ability spammer to begin with.

Hakurei · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

alternative skills to use (non wep skills): volcano rune in combination with solar barrage. better cc and decent aoe dmg. If you dont have solar barrage maybe throw in spear shards (though its dmg is meh) and dont forget to use your melee wep for additional dmg when they are knockdowned by volcano rune. For single target vampires bane, power of light, piercing javelin etc. and dont forget to use your melee wep.

In all seriousness, if you are quitting cause only biting jabs is ninja nerfed (and reverted soon anyway).... one trick pony much?
Also ditch shield/1h for now if you want dps. dual wield skills are better for that now.

Tootall2186 · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

Garetth wrote: »

Tootall2186 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

Tootall2186 wrote: »

Use your other utilities at our disposal to make up the dps difference. Then learn to play with more than one skill.

Would you mind posting your melee DPS build? Which ability did you substitute for biting jabs? Or are you still using it, and just coping with the 1.2 seconds of vulnerability after each cast?

I still use it. But I wasn't one of the people who would run in and spam the ability in the first place. I always used a multitude of our skills, mages guild, fighters guild, weapon skills depending on the area I'm in or group sizes I'm going against.

I'm mainly a healer but with my build I can easily switch between dps or heals. Wearing all light armor, and being used to playing an SD engi in gw2 over the past 1 1/2 years, I've been used to ranged/semi close ranged combat and using skills for mobility as well as dps.

I just recently started using aurora javelin and reflective light coupled with volcanic rune with hilariously fun success then impulse if I have some close ranges troubles.

If you want to play solo in Vet levels it was our only viable/sustainable dps so whether you used it or not or you think other skills replace it is n/a. Your opinion means nothing. Now move along.

And your opinion that you think you need it to kill things in vet levels also means nothing. Maybe you should learn to play the game instead of spamming one skill

just because you have problems leveling doesn't mean everyone does.

I've had zero problems during my travels in vet levels so far. And like I and others have stated you can still use this skills and mow *** down with it. But even without this you can burn things down before they even get to you. But you'd know that if you learned to use some other skills at our disposal.

L2p or pick another class if it's too hard for you.

Bangstin · May 2014

Poll is missing an option - I'm unable to adapt and just cry on the forums

zgrssd · May 2014

I don't mind the changes, and I will continue playing my Templar.

Mortosk wrote: »

On the EU server it was fixed with today maintenance.

And no, that was NOT because of your "Ultimatums" about quitting.