Thank you for the diversity

Icy · May 2014

Dear ZoS,

I just wanted to thank you for such an amazing range of characters in Elder Scrolls Online.

I can only speak for the quests and races of the Ebonheart Pact (and only up to Eastmarch) but so far I’ve helped an inter-racial couple (Dunmer-Argonian), I’ve helped a woman find her missing wife, I’ve chatted with male and female “entertainers” in the Ebony Flask Inn, I’ve spoken with female and male generals, and female and male farmers, and none of these characters ever makes a “thing” of who they are or why they’re here with regards to their gender. Characters who are leaders in this game are there purely because they’re good at what they do; female or male has nothing to do with it.

And do you know what? It’s wonderful!

It’s wonderful that all this is so normal; so normal, in fact, that you might even miss it unless you took a fresh look at the Tamriel ZoS has brought to life (like I did, prompted after something I read about a MMO competitor).

So, I’d like to say thank you ZoS, for making a world where gender so much better than normal, I didn’t even notice until now.

Thanks,

Icy.

(What do other people think about the other alliances? Is there just as much range of gender and relationships?)

Matt.vanelsenb16_ESO · May 2014

Yep, you help a gay male couple somewhere along in grahtwood or greenshade on the AD side of things, and I remember a few other encounters where you had to save a woman's wife or help a man's husband. And just like in the EP, you'll find your fair share of both male and female commanders and high-placed people.

david271749 · May 2014

Matt.vanelsenb16_ESO wrote: »

Yep, you help a gay male couple somewhere along in grahtwood or greenshade on the AD side of things, and I remember a few other encounters where you had to save a woman's wife or help a man's husband. And just like in the EP, you'll find your fair share of both male and female commanders and high-placed people.

It's funny that there were no gays in Tamriel after this period in time.

NoMoreChillies · May 2014

pity that same diversity does not apply to players builds

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

pity that same diversity does not apply to players builds

That's a failing on the part of the players who lack imagination. I'm still finding interesting build variations within each of my characters. But stop hijacking the thread.

I'm a huge fan of how well the characters are developed, even if we only see them for one quest.

TheBull · May 2014

Awesome post. ESO needs to toot it's own horn more.

Ser Lobo · May 2014

I think the NPC interaction is top notch. The characters are often 'in their world', so to speak. And there is a LOT of diversity.

Spoiler: your main quest line for your first alliance leads back into Coldharbor, and many (and I mean, MANY) of the NPC's you've helped along the way show up. It's a real nice treat.

Along this front, the best thing I think Zenimax could do to improve the whole experience, is player companions (look default to everyone else, but to the player they would have their own story) and more expansion of the player's main quest in the new zones (instead of the magick teleport in time moment).

MaxBat · May 2014

I agree - characterization, writing and the quests in the TESO are quite good. In fact, this and the soundtrack are my two favorite parts of the game and why I keep playing.

As to gay males, give women fair play. There is that "special relationship" budding on a certain ship in the Daggerfall Covenant ... don't want to throw out a spoiler ...

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

MaxBat wrote: »

I agree - characterization, writing and the quests in the TESO are quite good. In fact, this and the soundtrack are my two favorite parts of the game and why I keep playing.

As to gay males, give women fair play. There is that "special relationship" budding on a certain ship in the Daggerfall Covenant ... don't want to throw out a spoiler ...

There's a female-female couple in Grahtwood as well. And they're pirates!

fyrefenix · May 2014

lusty argonian maid lifts -her- tale and her breton boss lore book 2 was so funny

MaxBat · May 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

There's a female-female couple in Grahtwood as well. And they're pirates!

What is up with these pirates?!!

Long days at sea, warm nights under the stars ... oh, the mind does wander ...

ShedsHisTail · May 2014

Many of these are reasons why ESO was given a "Mature" rating and I applaud the Devs for holding their ground on those issues and taking the higher rating even though it almost certainly means lower sales.

That's called integrity and it's one of the major reasons I still believe they'll make this game even more fantastic in the future.

MaxBat · May 2014

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Many of these are reasons why ESO was given a "Mature" rating and I applaud the Devs for holding their ground on those issues and taking the higher rating even though it almost certainly means lower sales...

Meh ... no. Seriously, I doubt this has any effect on sales. None. Not even a little bit.

They wrote the game they wanted? Great. It's fun? That's wonderful. Let's not make them martyrs or something.

Rosa Parks they're not.

brandon · May 2014

I love that they pay attention to all of the different things

Fleymark · May 2014

I thought this was going to be a sarcastic post about the current state of classes and weapon/armor/attribute diversity.

But since we have female generals and some gay couples makes me forget the other problems.

/rolls eyes

The fact that anyone cares so much about insignificant crap like this in a game, or is so hyper pc and oversensitive to it IRL that it permeates everything they do, including when playing a fantasy game that it inspires an actual thank you on the forums is just LOL to me, frankly. And explains a lot about the current state of western civilization.

ShedsHisTail · May 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

I thought this was going to be a sarcastic post about the current state of classes and weapon/armor/attribute diversity.

But since we have female generals and some gay couples makes me forget the other problems.

/rolls eyes

The fact that anyone cares so much about insignificant crap like this in a game, or is so hyper pc and oversensitive to it IRL that it permeates everything they do, including when playing a fantasy game that it inspires an actual thank you on the forums is just LOL to me, frankly. And explains a lot about the current state of western civilization.

I wish there was a way to derisive noises on the internet.

Noswell · May 2014

I don't know about all of that, but me and another man ran around for the first two months with our Rings of Mara on and z-snapped our way to victory.

bean19 · May 2014

@OP - Great post. I've also been impressed by this.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

pity that same diversity does not apply to players builds

That's a failing on the part of the players who lack imagination. I'm still finding interesting build variations within each of my characters.

Wait until you hit Veteran levels and you have to use a min/max build to survive.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

I thought this was going to be a sarcastic post about the current state of classes and weapon/armor/attribute diversity.

But since we have female generals and some gay couples makes me forget the other problems.

/rolls eyes

The fact that anyone cares so much about insignificant crap like this in a game, or is so hyper pc and oversensitive to it IRL that it permeates everything they do, including when playing a fantasy game that it inspires an actual thank you on the forums is just LOL to me, frankly. And explains a lot about the current state of western civilization.

Yeah! How dare people use a forum for this game to talk about its excellent treatment of same-sex couples and women! We're only here to gripe about petty virtual goods and whine about how whatever-class-just-killed-me-in-PVP is overpowered.

bean19 · May 2014

MaxBat wrote: »

Meh ... no. Seriously, I doubt this has any effect on sales. None. Not even a little bit.

They wrote the game they wanted? Great. It's fun? That's wonderful. Let's not make them martyrs or something.

Rosa Parks they're not.

I agree with you that this has no effect on sales, but I bet it has a very real effect on gay kids who are told that there is something wrong with them by their families and/or religions. I also think it has an effect on girls who see the heroes and leaders in this game are not all men. Positive role models in art are a big deal for kids and how they view their self-worth.

Eventually, I hope you're right that this isn't a big deal and that we only remark on games when they don't have strong messages of diversity, but we aren't there yet. . . and while I agree that ZeniMax isn't risking their safety like Rosa Parks, the Freedom Riders, or thousands of gay men and women who have chosen to live their lives out and proud in the past decades filled with hate and often violence, it's still a really cool thing to do. If they get just one gay kid to not hurt his/herself because this game shows them that they are not the outsider their family or church tells them they are, then it's awesome.

Fleymark · May 2014

We need some touching and inspirational movie music.

Bookwyrm · May 2014

This topic is win. I love the characters in this game. They're unapologetically themselves, and it's awesome.

MaxBat · May 2014

bean19 wrote: »

I agree with you that this has no effect on sales, but I bet it has a very real effect on gay kids who are told that there is something wrong with them by their families and/or religions. I also think it has an effect on girls who see the heroes and leaders in this game are not all men. Positive role models in art are a big deal for kids and how they view their self-worth.

Eventually, I hope you're right that this isn't a big deal and that we only remark on games when they don't have strong messages of diversity, but we aren't there yet. . . and while I agree that ZeniMax isn't risking their safety like Rosa Parks, the Freedom Riders, or thousands of gay men and women who have chosen to live their lives out and proud in the past decades filled with hate and often violence, it's still a really cool thing to do. If they get just one gay kid to not hurt his/herself because this game shows them that they are not the outsider their family or church tells them they are, then it's awesome.

My comment was directed to the suggestion that Zenimax made some (significant) sacrifice in sales by either putting this content in the game or going for a mature rating. Like I said ... Meh.

As someone who has been active in the movement to eliminate gender-based discrimination in employment and education settings, and as someone who was once blasted on the Bethesda forum for daring to suggest there was a gender bias in certain Bethesda titles (very true story), I'm happy to see (1) more diversity in relationships and (2) stronger and more realistically intelligent women in TESO (and in Skyrim, too). In a industry long dominated by men, this is a refreshing change.

But do I think Zeni made a huge sacrifice for the equal rights movement? No. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. Glad the content is there, but - as I said - it's not like they're an African-American woman fighting for her human dignity.

JD2013 · May 2014

MaxBat wrote: »

bean19 wrote: »

I agree with you that this has no effect on sales, but I bet it has a very real effect on gay kids who are told that there is something wrong with them by their families and/or religions. I also think it has an effect on girls who see the heroes and leaders in this game are not all men. Positive role models in art are a big deal for kids and how they view their self-worth.

Eventually, I hope you're right that this isn't a big deal and that we only remark on games when they don't have strong messages of diversity, but we aren't there yet. . . and while I agree that ZeniMax isn't risking their safety like Rosa Parks, the Freedom Riders, or thousands of gay men and women who have chosen to live their lives out and proud in the past decades filled with hate and often violence, it's still a really cool thing to do. If they get just one gay kid to not hurt his/herself because this game shows them that they are not the outsider their family or church tells them they are, then it's awesome.

My comment was directed to the suggestion that Zenimax made some (significant) sacrifice in sales by either putting this content in the game or going for a mature rating. Like I said ... Meh.

As someone who has been active in the movement to eliminate gender-based discrimination in employment and education settings, and as someone who was once blasted on the Bethesda forum for daring to suggest there was a gender bias in certain Bethesda titles (very true story), I'm happy to see (1) more diversity in relationships and (2) stronger and more realistically intelligent women in TESO (and in Skyrim, too). In a industry long dominated by men, this is a refreshing change.

But do I think Zeni made a huge sacrifice for the equal rights movement? No. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. Glad the content is there, but - as I said - it's not like they're an African-American woman fighting for her human dignity.

Whilst I agree to a certain point, there are parts of the world where women and indeed gays and lesbians are indeed fighting for their dignity and in some cases, merely to stay alive.

Fleymark · May 2014

MaxBat wrote: »

bean19 wrote: »

I agree with you that this has no effect on sales, but I bet it has a very real effect on gay kids who are told that there is something wrong with them by their families and/or religions. I also think it has an effect on girls who see the heroes and leaders in this game are not all men. Positive role models in art are a big deal for kids and how they view their self-worth.

Eventually, I hope you're right that this isn't a big deal and that we only remark on games when they don't have strong messages of diversity, but we aren't there yet. . . and while I agree that ZeniMax isn't risking their safety like Rosa Parks, the Freedom Riders, or thousands of gay men and women who have chosen to live their lives out and proud in the past decades filled with hate and often violence, it's still a really cool thing to do. If they get just one gay kid to not hurt his/herself because this game shows them that they are not the outsider their family or church tells them they are, then it's awesome.

My comment was directed to the suggestion that Zenimax made some (significant) sacrifice in sales by either putting this content in the game or going for a mature rating. Like I said ... Meh.

As someone who has been active in the movement to eliminate gender-based discrimination in employment and education settings, and as someone who was once blasted on the Bethesda forum for daring to suggest there was a gender bias in certain Bethesda titles (very true story), I'm happy to see (1) more diversity in relationships and (2) stronger and more realistically intelligent women in TESO (and in Skyrim, too). In a industry long dominated by men, this is a refreshing change.

But do I think Zeni made a huge sacrifice for the equal rights movement? No. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. Glad the content is there, but - as I said - it's not like they're an African-American woman fighting for her human dignity.

This post just made my night. Seriously... Belly laughed to tears. Rofl

concobar · May 2014

You guys try not to break your arm patting yourselves on the back. Look at what all the diversity has brought Tamriel.... war and more war. This is a game not a pride rally, truly no one cares whose *** you play with in your own home.

I would be more impressed if Zeni would fix all the broken class skills and quests.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Ohioastro · May 2014

bean19 wrote: »

@OP - Great post. I've also been impressed by this.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

pity that same diversity does not apply to players builds

That's a failing on the part of the players who lack imagination. I'm still finding interesting build variations within each of my characters.

Wait until you hit Veteran levels and you have to use a min/max build to survive.

Every single thread in the game forum doesn't have to address your pet peeve.

robacooperb16_ESO · May 2014

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Beerbong_Ginn · May 2014

I liked this one part where a female kahjit had a crush on a female dunmer and she kept trying to show her affection by bringing her dead skeevers, rubbing her head up against her, etc.

concobar · May 2014

robacooperb16_ESO wrote: »

concobar wrote: »

You guys try not to break your arm patting yourselves on the back. Look at what all the diversity has brought Tamriel.... war and more war. This is a game not a pride rally, truly no one cares whose *** you play with in your own home. [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

See, this is a perfect example of the problem... I say people dont want to hear about your sex life, what ever it may be...

You say I should die and call me names...

I am curious about what it is you think i am ignorant of? How does me saying I do not want to hear about your sex life make me a bigot? You seem very angry.

robacooperb16_ESO · May 2014

concobar wrote: »

See, this is a perfect example of the problem... I say people dont want to hear about your sex life, what ever it may be...

Which is one of the standard "dog-whistles" I here from certain corners. It's somewhat akin to the standard "I'm not racist but..." line.

You say I should die and call me names...

Not you, but bigots like you. See big difference, larger scale and all. Personally I'd be more than happy to see the bigotry/ignorance/hate die and not the person. But sadly I suspect folks like you and @Fleymark won't change until you leave this mortal coil.