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Negate Magic Shouldn't Have An AoE Cap
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rhubbert_ESO✭✭✭Everyone I have talked to in my guild of 100+ is supportive of AoE caps. I use Negate Magic a lot. I think it would be OP if it could be used to stun more than 6 mobs for 10+ seconds... it would be so easy to get through a lot of vet dungeon mobs.Iris Umbra// Stamina Nightblade // Aldmeri Dominion1 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Which would you rather stand in: A DK Standard or Negate Magic.
If you say the Standard, you're enemies are doing it wrong. Just saying.
Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭@Luvsfuzzybunnies It seems like you are really frustrated with certain things happening in your PvP-campaign but please don't take it out on these people or let it cloud your judgment regarding this specific ability. If someone is stupid or distracted enough to just stand in the big black bubble he should be silenced. BTW the bubble isnt all that big so if they're not asleep they should be able to walk out. This isn't some high-elite player speaking or something but the only thing i read from you is noobnoobnoob. Chill out a bit and don't take everything as an insult.
@Mykah as i said, the AoE isn't all that big and it does no damage so how is this OP, i mean, this is the most expensive ultimate a sorc has.1 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭then give us a real Ultimate instead.
Negate magic is the most useful Ultimate in Cyrodiil atm.
At least assuming you are fighting in a group, against a group. Groups that use it, win. Those that don't, don't.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/2 -
ruzlb16_ESO✭✭✭dbetterton_ESO wrote: »Negate magic is the most useful Ultimate in Cyrodiil atm.
At least assuming you are fighting in a group, against a group. Groups that use it, win. Those that don't, don't.
Not so much, really. Silencing a random 6 people out of a group of 24 isn't great, especially since (once again) Storm Atro will stun those 6, damage them, and then proceed to stand there damaging them again. Removing ground spell effects is nice, but not 250 ultimate nice.
And once again, as we've said, we don't care if you move it to another tree so everyone can have it, so it's not like we're just saying 'sorc needs buffz!'. With a cap, the ultimate is, on a cost-for-cost basis, inferior to most other possible ultimate choices most of the time. It is entirely possible to cast Storm Atro every 10 seconds; negate generates no ultimate of it's own and so cannot be cast as regularly, does no damage, and will now only effect 6 random people out of a zerg of 100+. Not the healers, as we'd hope. Not even necessarily the majicka DPSes. Random, so it's entirely possible for it to land on the stamina-build melee DPSes, for whom it does nothing at all. Stun from the atro means 6 players doing nothing regardless; silence from negate means some players may be inconvenienced if we're lucky with the RNG.
We will simply start using the Atro more, since it's superior in every single respect, reducing Sorc even more into a cookie-cutter class with only 2-3 plausible build options.1 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭dbetterton_ESO wrote: »
@dbetterton_ESO
I 100% agree at the moment. But this is going to be a monumental nerf.
I was referring to the post Nerf skill which I can't imagine slotting if you plan to do large scale PvP.0 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »Not so much, really. Silencing a random 6 people out of a group of 24 isn't great
Atm it's not capped at 6 people is it? It certainly doesn't seem to be.
And it does much more than "silence" them. It prevents all heals, all ability casts, all ultimates (no DK standards) and even (unless I've been bugged) drinking pots. It basically renders any enemy inside moot (not mute). And they are then REALLY easy to kill.
This is based on experience with both sides of a negate magic.
What does a Storm Atro do? Give me an easy target to charge my Ultimate. Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/1 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@dbetterton_ESO
Yup, right now its not capped. Or if it is capped, the cap is really high.
All those things you listed ARE "Silencing." Thats what the effect is referred to as in game.
Read my earlier posts though. After the nerf, I'll drop this thing on 20 people and ONLY 6 OF THEM will stop healing, damaging, ect. The other 14 will receive no effect at all. That's just plain silly. Worse, its random. I could hit 6 stamina bashing DKs and not hit any of the healers or Sorcs.0 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭@dbetterton_ESO
Yup, right now its not capped. Or if it is capped, the cap is really high.
All those things you listed ARE "Silencing." Thats what the effect is referred to as in game.
Read my earlier posts though. After the nerf, I'll drop this thing on 20 people and ONLY 6 OF THEM will stop healing, damaging, ect. The other 14 will receive no effect at all. That's just plain silly. Worse, its random. I could hit 6 stamina bashing DKs and not hit any of the healers or Sorcs.
Those stamina bashing DK's will no longer be able to drop standards, drink pots or use any of their Magicka based skills (talons).
And even with a cap, any AOE heals will be "dispelled" so that will negatively effect everyone in the area. So, even capped, it should be VERY effective. Right now anyone not running it in a group setting is hurting their group - I doubt that will change even with a 6 person cap.
As someone in your faction, I hope you and your guild's sorcs don't drop it for the silly and useless Storm Atro.Edited by Talcyndl on May 15, 2014 5:33PMTal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
ruzlb16_ESO✭✭✭dbetterton_ESO wrote: »Atm it's not capped at 6 people is it? It certainly doesn't seem to be.
atm it's not. Our argument is that it's only effective so long as the cap doesn't apply to it at all (or if the cap is specifically larger than 6 - like 20 or so). Post-cap, however, it will be as above. This is why we've stressed it's just about worth using atm despite it's enormous ulti cost.
Post-nerf, Storm Atro will achieve more than Negate before you even have a chance to start builing your ultimate on it, because the stun+damage is more effective than the silence, and the larger radius is meaningless when you can only hit 6 targets regardless. Plus, it costs 25% less ultimate, it generates ulti with it's attacks, it has a synergy, and while you're lobbing spells at it build ulti you're not lobbing them at me.
A 6-man cap on this particular skill is effectively removing it from the game, tbh. It's utility, and most utilities should be either exempted from AOE cap, or else have a specifically higher cap included (like the AW tab ones do).1 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Hope this is the conclusion of a lot of DC and AD folks on Wabba.
Can't wait to not have to watch out for the dark dome of doom.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/2 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »the larger radius is meaningless when you can only hit 6 targets regardless.
Except it doesn't (won't) just effect those six targets. It will still dispel all AOE in the area. Don't know how you guys run your groups, but AOE heals are rather important for ours. Losing the major heal for the front line push makes a HUGE difference. Certainly more so than some random DK coming in and dropping a Standard.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
Niffo✭✭✭Buff Sorcerers! They're the lowest health/armour class in the game.
How unexpected it is to see Nord asking for Sorcerers to have uncapped AoE while no one else does.Edited by Niffo on May 15, 2014 6:18PM1 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Assuming this is nerfed to only effect 6 people, we don't know how that will work. Will it just select a random 6 at the beginning and then only effect those particular players as long as they are in the radius. Alternatively, it could use a mechanic that added new players to the 6 when any of the original group die or leave the area.
Either way, it will still function as a very useful area denial spell.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@dbetterton_ESO
That's exactly the kinds of questions I was asking in the beginning of the thread.
I have to wonder exactly how this cap is going to affect it the skill. Heck, it could be that the 6 target cap only affects the stun on monsters. That would be relatively sensible and balanced since effectively shutting off an entire pull in a dungeon or trial is a bit OP.
It could also be that only 6 targets get "silenced" for the duration, as in they cannot cast spells for 6 seconds after being hit, but that all effects in the area (without target limit) still get dispelled. If so, that's actually not that bad. And it actually makes the morphs a bit more useful since more spells will be getting dispelled (since the targets can still cast, unlike currently) effectively healing you for more.
The problem, which is recurring with ZOS, is that they simply haven't given us enough information about the way these things work. Because it could also be that 6 targets get silenced and everyone else is able to willy nilly continue to fire off spells in the bubble, which would bad.
So I really need more information.0 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Even worst case scenerio it will still be the best Ultimate for a wide range of group encounters. It will certainly be better than Standard (also to be capped at 6) in most group on group situations. It may not make the Sorc casting it feel like a super badass killer. But it will wipe groups and help his team A LOT.
We all but require our Sorcs to slot it. And I don't see that changing even with the possible nerfs.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@dbetterton_ESO
Well to be fair I don't think Standard should have an AoE cap either. I think that's ridiculous. Really no ground based AoE should have any kind of target limit in my opinion. PBAoEs? Maybe. Fine. Projectile AoE's? Maybe. Fine. Something you can just walk out of? Never.
But I think you'll reconsider your stance after you see the new Negate Magic in action, if it works the way I fear.
Or maybe not. We're left playing a guessing game since ZOS refuses to give details in their patch notes.0 -
fanningeagleub17_ESOSoul ShrivenLuvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »@Luvsfuzzybunnies
I'm not sure what your rant has to do with Negate Magic or AoE Caps.
You seem to be randomly spewing nonsense about general class balance.
If you'd like to continue doing so, I suggest doing it in another thread. You're off topic and if it continues I'll be reporting it as such.
Anyway, this isn't a Sorc thing. I also think Caltrops should have a much higher target cap or none at all since its an AoE. Nova and Dragon Knight standard should have no caps. Basically anything ground based that can be moved out of.
Don't be mad at me for pointing out your logic of I can't kill everything they must be OP( I need a buff in this case since all other aoe abilities will have a cap but I dont want mine to have one). I killed you haha stfu noob that you seem to say everyone else has. You call for nerfs on most other classes but say sorcs are fine. I get it you play a sorc and want to be able to kill everything(you say you want it balanced but your arguments prove otherwise). You're biased towards your class as has been stated and why not be you play that class, and you want it to be good right? I am just trying to point out how hypocritical you are being. Then to try to defend your crying by saying I'm just making suggestions... What are all the other people who are proposing good fixes for the abilities you so vehemently defend doing? Oh thats right they are gonna change the game for the better and make your class slightly less powerful so then you threaten to quit. Omg don't let him quit we need him he is defending the OP abilities and accusing others of being bad we need him here. So I say report me if you want for being off topic when I am clearly saying that all aoe abilities need a target cap(which happens to be on topic). Maybe more than 6 targets but whatever it is it needs to be standardized for all AOE abilities not just the templar heals. So sure I could have just come out and said that plainly but I chose to poke fun a bit for you insisting that sorcs are fine as is except they need to not have AOE caps.
TL:DR
The jist of the post is. If someone speaks against your point of view is it incoherent babble you don't understand cause it's not gonna help you. Sorry you couldn't see I was posting on the hypocrisy of your laments of other classes while crying for buffs to yours. Which is pretty well on topic if not for any other reason to disagree with your OP AOE should have a target cap on it.
Not quite sure why you think that all AOE's need caps and that they are OP. Doesn't it seem stupid that if there's a HUGE RED CIRCLE indicating danger and you continuously stand in it that this is extremely poor play and should be punished? While some AoE abilities most definetly need some balance tweaks and possibly additional game mechanics for counter play (for example they could add a snare immunity period after you dodge roll/break a snare which would balance dark talons) it's fairly ignorant to say that ALL AoE abilities are OP.
Also, sorcerers are definetly a balanced class if not on the weaker end. Not sure why you think they're overpowered. Sure, the lightning dash may be annoying to play against but it's not OP. Sorcs are squishy AF and need a way to escape melee champions, and more specifically DK's before they dark talon and then *** them. And, I don't think the OP thinks that ONLY negate magic should not have a cap. I believe he thinks that all AoE utility spells shouldn't have caps because it ruins the spirit of them (negate magick creates a "no zone" for the enemy. If you limit it to 6 or cap it at all it ruins a lot of it's utility/usefulness). I personally am against AoE caps in general. It's a bandage fix that simply pleases people who are unable to adapt to the situation (don't change their load out to counter their enemies). Yes, some AoE abilities need some balancing but putting a cap on them is an awful way to go about it and simply pleases bad and unorganized players.
And just FYI the OP didn't "cry for nerfs on other classes while asking for a buff to his." He simply pointed out a huge downside of the change and gave an example of how it will destroy a huge aspect of the game and make noob zergs unbeatable by a smaller team regardless of how organized they are. Defending the AoE cap is about as ignorant and unintelligent as it gets. I'd think about how solid your own argument is before flaming another persons post for lacking logic.1 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@fanningeagleub17_ESO
Well said.
And yes, I don't like AoE caps on any ground based AoEs. I think Standard, Nova, ect. should all be uncapped. I like them even less on utility AoEs than I do on damage AoEs, because....well they do no damage. I'm not sure how else to express it but capping it just seems so unnecessary.
That said, I think the ultimate gain from AoEs (nerfed in this patch) was a good change.
That's what was making Negate OP. The fact that I could lay it down every few seconds and just walk through zergs spamming Impulse. That was OP and needed a change.
Again though, they screwed up by nerfing the part that didn't need to be nerfed (target cap).
The biggest problem in this game right now is Ultimate gain from a variety of sources and Ultimate reduction. These things should be once in a while abilities, not part of your usual rotation.0 -
Most useful and powerful ultimate in the game, hands down. The list of things it does is pure gold. It removes dk standards already placed for one.
An ultimate that can remove someone elses ultimate... Def the most powerful in the game.1 -
Tintinabula✭✭✭✭✭
✭Im against any kind of cap. However choosing your pet area of effect bubble or ring or whatever you want to call it(we all know its an aoe ) doesn't float with me. Whats good for the goose I say. 0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@dbetterton_ESO
That's exactly the kinds of questions I was asking in the beginning of the thread.
I have to wonder exactly how this cap is going to affect it the skill. Heck, it could be that the 6 target cap only affects the stun on monsters. That would be relatively sensible and balanced since effectively shutting off an entire pull in a dungeon or trial is a bit OP.
It could also be that only 6 targets get "silenced" for the duration, as in they cannot cast spells for 6 seconds after being hit, but that all effects in the area (without target limit) still get dispelled. If so, that's actually not that bad. And it actually makes the morphs a bit more useful since more spells will be getting dispelled (since the targets can still cast, unlike currently) effectively healing you for more.
The problem, which is recurring with ZOS, is that they simply haven't given us enough information about the way these things work. Because it could also be that 6 targets get silenced and everyone else is able to willy nilly continue to fire off spells in the bubble, which would bad.
So I really need more information.
Youre assuming they know how their skills work.0 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Please make more threads about the AoE cap, because 2 isn't enough already.
[EDIT] I can't read: Please continue talking about the dreamy uncapped AoE because talking about uncapped AoE for 3 months isn't enough already.
Edited by Lava_Croft on July 18, 2014 11:22AM0 -
bugulu✭✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »Please make more threads about the AoE cap, because 2 isn't enough already.
Please check the date when the thread started. I know reading comprehension and lack of noticing details severely lacks in today's masses but still....Edited by bugulu on July 18, 2014 8:20AM1 -
Imo it would be ok if they just change it so that it wont be affected by immovable anymore.
1. Out of 6 people mostly 4 of them have immovable running. Makes it only 2 people affected.
2. This is not the kind of CC which should be countered by "immovable"2 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭So I know there is a long on going thread of people railing against AoE caps in general, but I wanted to take the time to focus on one ability in particular: Negate Magic.
I think its down right absurd to place a cap on this ability. Its an area of denial ability that does absolutely no damage.
For those who don't remember, this ability also used to damage opponents in the radius (in early Beta.) Back then, it was pretty much the single best Ultimate available to the Sorcerer.
Then, it received a justifiable nerf. Now it simply dispels effects and silences enemies (also stunning monsters.)
In PvP, its a great Area of Denial zerg busting technique. Smart Sorcs use it on gaps when a zerg is rushing into a keep. The other day, a group of DC was trying to take Arrius Keep from us where we held a scroll. They broke down the inner gate and rushed in to the right where they all grouped up in a corner, away from the LoS of the NPCs.
The plan seemed to be to group up and then push out all together. I saw that coming so I lead my group over there, dropped a negate magic on them in the corner, and we started slaughtering. Most of them died and the remaining few rushed out of the AREA OF EFFECT and back out of the keep.
And that's the part that keeps this skill balanced. You can leave the area. It doesn't do any damage. It just keeps you from casting spells while you're in that little bubble.
With a cap of six targes I honestly can't imagine myself using this any more. What good will it do me to drop this thing on a group of 20 players when 14 of them can still freely hit me? How does the skill decide who gets silenced? What if it silences 6 bash spamming stamina based DKs? What good has that done me if the healers and the ranged DPS can still fire off spells to their hearts content?
I suppose AoE caps are not the end of the world on some of the abilities that already have them (Impulse for example.) But I really, for the life of me, cannot understand adding a cap to an ability that doesn't do any damage.
If you're going to cap this skill, you really need to add back the damage component or you'll see it completely fall to the wayside in PvP.
This is an excellent point.
Within; Without.0 -
Halrloprillalar✭✭✭✭✭dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO wrote: »Imo it would be ok if they just change it so that it wont be affected by immovable anymore.
1. Out of 6 people mostly 4 of them have immovable running. Makes it only 2 people affected.
2. This is not the kind of CC which should be countered by "immovable"
Then negate would truly be OP. I'm more in favor of removing (or at least relaxing) the aoe cap on it"nerf rock, paper is fine" - scissors
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