Vampire/Werewolf - A reworking approach

ElliottXO · May 2014

Hi folks,

This post here is not to discuss any nerfs or bugfixing, as we all know some abilities and ultimate cost reduction needs to be fixed anyway. This is merely an approach to enhance the Vampire and Werewolf experience. To make it more distinguishing from the human players.

My problem at the moment is the following: there are far too many Vampires and Werewolfs, which people already describe as "Twilight Online" or "Underworld Online". The reason is: there is basically no commitment, you simply receive an additional skill line. Especially Werewolfs in regards of PVE suffer no disadvantages, but also basically don't receive any advantages. Vampires on the other hand are not really forced to be played as Vampires. Another poster here described Vampirism as a "walk in the park". Daytime/Nighttime does not matter, feeding does not really matter (in PVP that health regeneration debuff is not a real debuff, since most direct encounters don't last very long).

Now you might disagree with me, but I believe that the Vampire population should not account for more than 10% of the players, and Werewolfs should also not account for more than 10% of the players. I kind of feel stupid joining a party with 3 Vampires. To sort out the "real" Vampires and Werewolfs from the ones who just take it because there is no commitment, I am looking at a couple of SIMPLE features to implement to enhance the experience.

Werewolfs (in addition to the existing skill line):
- Werewolf form considerably stronger than human form (a transformed Werewolf should be able to take on 2-4 players by himself in PVP, or 1-2 players if they are equipped with Fighter's guild abilities)
- After Werewolf form expired, the player gets a 10-20% debuff on stats/partial stats for the same duration, making him vulnerable after the transformation
- Random Werewolf transformation on taking damage 1/200, 1/500 or 1/1000, whatever seems most suitable (regardless on how many ultimate points you have, but your points get reset to 0)
- Ultimate cost to be adjusted (seems to high at the moment)

Basically, I like the idea of the random Werewolf transformation on taking damage because it will add some bestial randomness to playing a Werewolf. If you have bad luck it forces you into Werewolf form on some trash mob and junks your ultimate points. I am not sure if Werewolf form receives a health buff, but I would say it needs double the health and about 20-30% more damage than the "average player", to compete with 2-4 players in PVP? Anyway, you guys probably have great ideas. Keep in mind it should be "easy" to implement, since it will be already hard to balance.

Vampires (in addition to existing skill line):
- 10% stat debuff during daytime, 15% stat buff during nighttime (e.g. if daytime accounts for 2/3 of the total time, I am not sure on this one; so vampires would be considerably stronger during the shorter night, and slightly weaker during the longer day)
- In addition to the health regeneration debuff every stage of Vampirism adds another 25% fire damage taken while keeping the other advantages (125% more fire damage on stage 4)

My concern at the moment is, even if they fix the absurd ultimate cost reduction there will be no real reason to maintain stage 1, because frankly the health regeneration debuff is not really a big issue. At the moment being a well fed Vampire makes no real sense. Or am I missing something?

What do you guys think? This is not an approach to nerf or make things unviable, but to add commitment to these choices. You want to be a Vampire? Then be a real Vampire and deal with it, also during daytime.

Besides, I don't understand why Vampires/Werewolfs can use Fighter's guild skill line (yes I know they were in Skyrim, but screw that).

This here is an open discussion. Please keep the "nerf that, nerf this" in the other threads. I am talking about commitment!

AlienSlof · May 2014

I agree totally. Plus, Bethesda always get the vampirism the wrong way around - a well-fed vampire should be considerably stronger than a starving one. Why else should they need to feed at all? Maintaining a stronger form would mean more reason to feed, which adds to the commitment and roleplay aspect of being a vampire. The condition would simply HAVE to be managed properly to remain strong.

I used and made vampire mods for Morrowind and Oblivion, which enhanced the experience, but also made it more difficult in places. In Morrowind, my vampire couldn't step outside during the day at ALL, in Oblivion, he could, but it came with a serious cost to his strength and abilities.

I'm still trying to get my characters vamped, but for me, it's all about the roleplaying aspect, nothing to do with trend, twilight, underworld, etc. It's more to do with the fact I always play a vampire in Elder Scrolls games, and I want do do likewise in this one.

nudel · May 2014

Good post OP. Glad to see some positive suggestions for balancing. I will follow up your wall of text with a wall of text

I have yet to play a werewolf in ESO so my perspective is limited. However, I did fool around with werewolves in Skyrim and they were by default pretty underpowered, suffering from a lot of the same problems I see associated with werewolves in this game:

-- Can rarely use Werewolf Form
-- Super squishy with poor damage
-- Lose all armor and skills, which only exacerbates point 2.

With Skyrim, I used a few mods which added new perks to the game in an attempt to make werewolves more viable in higher difficulty settings and leveled content. I think some of these same perks could help out werewolf in ESO since it suffers from so many of the same problems that plagued werewolf players in Skyrim. So throwing these suggestions out there for the community to chew on.

1) Razor Claws: Attacks in werewolf form ignore 25% of enemy's armor per rank.

2) Animal Vigor: Increased health regen in Werewolf form.

3) Full Moon Rising: Health increased by __ if in Werewolf form and ___ if in Human form. (obviously the bonus would be less in human form)

Point 1 makes the werewolf more into the glass cannon that it's meant to be. Considering they can't benefit from many of the armor and weapon related perks and traits that reduce armor and spell resist on targets, this is a good balance to help buff their damage. Besides they have giant claws. They should be able to pierce armor more often. Combine this with bleed and they should be able to put out some decent dps. Also more/faster kills = more time in werewolf form thanks to Devour.

Point 2 helps compensate for the fact that they don't benefit from armor. Makes them a little more survivable in a believable way. Due to the nature of overcharging, this might also include some sort of spell resist/ armor, but I don't know how balanced or realistic that could be. The mod I used did have that though and it did make a difference.

Point 3 would be a nice way to give a little more benefit to being a wolf not in werewolf form and also tie in the moons. I like the idea of Forced Transformations that you presented, but personally I'd prefer they tie in to the moon or day/night cycle. The mods I used had Forced Transformations and it really did make being a were more exciting even in human form. Kinda like how vamps are aware of their vamp stage and need to feed or not. Forced Transformations would make you very aware of the moon and whether it was a good idea to do a certain quest during a high chance for transforming. It was fun, but again not everyone would like this.

It seems all the skills (on paper anyway) revolve around charging up and reducing your Ultimate, which is kind of a waste for an entire skill line imo. It's like they wanted the Ultimate to be super powerful and desirable so they made it expensive and then designed the passives around making it more affordable. In doing so, they missed out on a lot more creative solutions for those passives. And the Ultimate is rather weak so nobody uses it anyway. As you said, werewolves should be able to take on a few players at once. They should be something that makes you pause before charging into a battle in PVP. Not overpowered, but certainly able to take on 2 or 3 at once.

Mods from which I shamelessly stole ideas and skill names

Werewolf Perks Expanded
Tales of Lycanthropy

nudel · May 2014

As for the Vamps/Weres being able to use the Fighters Guild line, I kinda agree it can get a little silly. I propose not that they be locked out of the Fighters Guild, but that a third World line be added: Dawnguard. Make it so only non-Vamp and non-Were could be part of it. You would lose access to the skill line if you gained access to Were/Vamp (completing the quest and becoming full). It could be full of counters for were and vamp specifically, which would make it desirable and help alleviate some of the Underworld/Twilight feel people complain this game is taking on.

A quick balancing for vamp stages would be to scale the Fire Weakness as you increase in stage. So stage 1 vamp has maybe 40% weakness, stage 2 has 50%, stage 3 has 60%, and stage 4 has 70%. Being a stage 4 would be a lot more dangerous, especially in Cyrodiil and your racial bonuses/ jewelry slots wouldn't be able to completely negate it.

Also I would love to see a Hate system added when they add in the justice system. Make it so that town/ city guards are more likely to arrest or outright attack vampires that are very obviously vampires (i.e. stage 4 vamps). This would necessitate feeding before venturing into a busy city unless you've already fed recently. Stage 2 and Stage 1 would be able to blend in easily and avoid notice. But the higher stages would risk running into trouble with authorities.

Gedalya · May 2014

Here is a thought; lets not change a thing.

Nox_Aeterna · May 2014

Newsflash , most of the time , unless they add something that makes you not be able to interact with NPCs , there was never any reason to feed in ANY ES game :P.

Gedalya wrote: »

Here is a thought; lets not change a thing.

I agree with this , in part , for now , they should fix all the bugs with both skills lines.

After that when ALL the skill trees are almost without bugs , we can work balance.

God knows im waiting to see the DKs stop being godly themselves.

nudel · May 2014

@Nox_Aeterna‌ I would agree with you if ZOS had that sort of policy. But considering we're only one month into launch and they've already nerfed a quest boss, changed the drop system for all non-quest bosses, and made plans to buff/nerf specific class skills in the Craglorn patch, I do not think they share that view. If they're going to buff and nerf early in launch when skills are broken and quests are buggy, then I seen no harm in offering suggestions as to what those changes might look like. If you can't beat em, join em.

Altheina · May 2014

Good preposition OP. You might wanna /feedback this so it gets to be read by the devs

ElliottXO · May 2014

Gedalya wrote: »

Here is a thought; lets not change a thing.

Great to have you in this discussion. Here is another thought: how about you make a poll that ZOS shouldn't change anything in this game anymore and see how many people you get to agree with you.

Gix · May 2014

I'm waiting for the crime system...

Who knows?

ElliottXO · May 2014

@nudel‌

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Newsflash , most of the time , unless they add something that makes you not be able to interact with NPCs , there was never any reason to feed in ANY ES game :P.

Gedalya wrote: »

Here is a thought; lets not change a thing.

I agree with this , in part , for now , they should fix all the bugs with both skills lines.

After that when ALL the skill trees are almost without bugs , we can work balance.

God knows im waiting to see the DKs stop being godly themselves.

I wouldn't even care if they delay craglorn to fix the current content. That does not mean I have to wait to publish my opinion.

My current feedback: it's too convenient to play vampire/werewolf right now. I mean not even a difference in day and night?

If somebody ever played a Nosferatu in vampire bloodlines he knows what I mean ;-)

antmck2011rwb17_ESO · May 2014

I agree that the werewolf skills need an overhaul. It was a lot of fun in Skyrim running around as a werewolf attacking on-sight. As long as I fed now and then I could stay in werewolf form for a long time - and I did. I don't know if that would work here in an MMO.

My problem is that werewolf transform ultimate takes waaay too long to charge, and doesn't last that long anyway. So, you still need to invest in good weapons and armour and their skill lines. If you want to play as a werewolf (as I do) then why should you be forced to do this? Your werewolf form is your primary attack mode and so the skills should reflect this. You shouldn't need and really good armour or weapons. Being a werewolf should cover this. Werewolves should be stronger too. They should be able to take on a small group of enemies at lest. I can't count the number of times a group of 3 or 4 have killed me. If being a werewolf is this bad then what's the point? You spend most of your time in non-werewolf form anyway. (I was going to say human form, but not everyone is human - I'm an Argonian normally.) Also, there needs to be some AOE in werewolf skills.

I think werewolf should have a increased sense of smell. They should be able to smell prey long before they can be seen.

jdandrews108b14_ESO · May 2014

AlienSlof wrote: »

I agree totally. Plus, Bethesda always get the vampirism the wrong way around - a well-fed vampire should be considerably stronger than a starving one. Why else should they need to feed at all? Maintaining a stronger form would mean more reason to feed, which adds to the commitment and roleplay aspect of being a vampire. The condition would simply HAVE to be managed properly to remain strong.

Vamprsm is a disease remember, one that attacks the brain. Vampires who neglect to feed grow stronger in the connection to their daedric powers, but it also begins to whittle away the sanity of the person, hence where a bloodfiend comes from.
It forces the vampire to find a balance between feeding and not feeding to stay sane.

I really like the random WW transformation aspect, sounds really cool.
Sadly the animation for transform takes about 25 seconds which is enough to kill you at Veteran Rank content if you don't use it at the right time, not to mention it bugging out a few times if hit by a stun before the transformation completing.
If it was a much quicker transform time, this could work really well.
And as a WW myself, poison damage is a very huge bane to us in PvE as most spiders and lower level creatures now hit much harder.

Vampires I don't see as having as much a problem. Mainly there are too many "...meh, who cares" aspects about them that make it ok to just have it.

jircris11 · May 2014

Vamps are considerably stronger then a WW, WW needs to gather a stupid amount of ulti in order to even access his WW line to lvl it, where a vamp just needs to kill things with essence drain on the bar. I do not agree giving vamps a day time weakness though, seeing how (especially in pve) the fire weakness gets your butt kicked often. Af got dawnguard, in TES lore the group is not around yet. i am not even sure if order of stendarr is around.

I know the original dawngaurd were a bunch of thigs and mercs, nothing like what you see in skyrim. What ZO (bethesda does not work or run this game) needs to do is balance the vamps and WWs better. Bring the WW skills up to par, or at least lower the cost for transformation. I play both and honestly..my WW feels so much weaker and leveling the tree is a pain in the butt.

AlienSlof · May 2014

jdandrews108b14_ESO wrote: »

Vampirism is a disease remember, one that attacks the brain. Vampires who neglect to feed grow stronger in the connection to their daedric powers, but it also begins to whittle away the sanity of the person, hence where a bloodfiend comes from.
It forces the vampire to find a balance between feeding and not feeding to stay sane.

Now this IS interesting, considering that in ES lore vampires came about on a daedric prince's whim. It would certainly explain why different clans have different traits - three distinct clans in Morrowind, each with traits that passed down through blood, yet a different type in Oblivion, and another in Skyrim (the Volkihars)

This is something I'll keep in mind when I write my ES themed stories that follow my main vampire character.

Vaerth · May 2014

I think they should remove Vampire and Werewolf from the game. This is suppose to be about the war in Cyrodill and Cold Harbor, not twilight. I would like to see people play as the race they chose, and not becoming werewolves and vampires. Half the game is Vampires. Everywhere I turn Vampires one after another.

Silverbolts anyone?