Imbalances in crafting progression

Ruddertail · May 2014

Here's something that bugs me about the crafting system. Alchemy, Woodworking, Clothing and Blacksmithing all progress in a "natural" way; the more you do it, the better you get at it. Researching traits takes a long time, but so does discovering alchemical properties unless you use addons. Regardless, these are all balanced and progress according to player effort and time.

Then we have Enchanting. To level enchanting efficiently, you need to harvest three kinds of runes - already more than any other profession requires - and then make enchantments. But this barely levels up your skill at all. Neither does deconstructing glyphs you find. Instead, you need to find a partner to trade enchantments with in order to level the skill at any acceptable rate. Why is this one so different from the others?

Then we have Provision, which is the worst of the lot. Rather than logical progression - make more to do better - provisioning is RNG-based. You have to find ingredients in boxes rather than being able to craft them, and unlike traits that you research and alchemical properties that you experiment with, the recipes are also produced by RNG in containers. If you don't find a blue recipe, you'll never be able to make blue food. It'd make more sense to experiment like in alchemy, research raw materials to discover recipes, or possibly to "upgrade" your food by using some sort of condiment items. This is not the case though, and thanks to the nature of RNG it can be excruciating to level up to produce the best types of food.

The latter two are simply not appealing to level due to these imbalances, and they can't be explained by "they're better", either. The crafting system is very balanced in its results, crafted potions are good, as is crafted gear, crafted enchantments and crafted food. None really stand out. So why these differences?

makosdv · May 2014

I definitely agree regarding Enchanting.

I just hit lvl 40 and my skills are:
Alchemy 30
Blacksmithing 23
Clothing 22
Enchanting 13
Provisioning 50 (hit 50 at lvl 28 or something...)
Woodworking 22

I've put the same amount of effort into each, but Enchanting clearly doesn't level "normally". You have to use the partner "exploit" to actually get it to level and then it seems it levels too fast. The crafted-item-swapping method really seems like a "bug" to me, but ZOS obviously designed it that way.

Provisioning was super easy to level. Although now, I can never seem to find the right ingredients I need. For example, I have stuff to craft lvl 45 food... but not lvl 30, 35, or 40...

Grim13 · May 2014

I'm vr6... I'm nearing 50 on Clothing, Blacksmithing, and Woodworking... Enchanting is at 18. I've deconstructed EVERYTHING I've come across, picked up everything I find in the world, made a glyph any time I had the appropriate items, and put a skill point into any enchanting slot the moment it became available. Level 18. I can make Glyphs for levels 35 to 40 something, lol. Clearly, the balance on Enchanting is off.

Ruddertail · May 2014

Provisioning was alright IF you leveled it from launch when recipes were common, including blue ones. (the purple ones aren't really worth it anyway)

Trying to do it now on a new character is a study of cursing the RNG. The recipes sold in my guild are level 1 (gap) level 6 (gap) level 9, and they're incredibly rare to find, even as greens.

AlexDougherty · May 2014

Blacksmithing needs a serious exp boost, it lags ridiculously behind the others.
Alchemy is a tad troublesome at times, unless you have the addon which tells you the properties of the ingredients (also called cheating).
Provisioning I've had no problems with, found a Food vendor yesterday in Ebonheart, only sells one half of the common ingredients, but it helps, and that has levelled up the most. It's also particulary useful due to boosting health and magic and stamina for limited time, which is why I have a 40+ stack of Trotters pie or equivalent on my characters.
Enchanting needs a vendor where you can trade runes of one type for another for a fee. To keep it as random as possible we shouldn't be able to choose the rune just it's type, and the level should stay the same.

Lupinemw · May 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Blacksmithing needs a serious exp boost, it lags ridiculously behind the others.

Yeah it doesn't I hit 50 with no issue at all. Any craft always depends on if you are doing it alone or with friends. I'm part of a good, friendly guild who make stuff for others to decon. So its been easy. One of the great ways is to find someone who doesn't want stuff in your guild and is willing to give it to you for free, if its Vet rank stuff as well you'll find the levels jump very quickly.

I don't do some crafts so I often send people stuff instead of coming back to empty/decon my bags.

Iluvrien · May 2014

My main is level 34 and is currently working on Enchanting, Clothing and Woodworking (in that order) and all 3 skills are currently in balance. In fact, I can actually create glyphs for a higher level range than I can create Clothing or Woodworking items, primarily because of a higher number of skill points spent in the profession.

My opinion on the speed of Enchanting levelling is that it is tough, but that the issue of an imbalance between crafting level and character level is not a fault of the Enchanting system, but of the levelling system.

It is almost ridiculously easy to level in this game. I have only played LotRO and SWTOR before this, however it took a lot longer to get to this level in those two games, in terms of actual hours played.

The primary focus of my character has been crafting, he has picked up quests when he nears a quest hub on one of his foraging trips. As such his pace has been comparatively slow and unhurried, with a fair amount of time spent wandering through areas infested with Kagouti and Alit (and other such creatures that drop white glyphs). There has not been a single occasion when I have have wanted to create a glyph for a new armour/weapon set that I have been insufficient level to do so.

Truly, and with no intention of dismissing the OP or any other such anti-social action, I see no issue with the Enchanting system as it is... apart from the comparative paucity of jewellery items to be enchanted (especially at low levels).

Ruddertail · May 2014

Iluvrien wrote: »

It is almost ridiculously easy to level in this game. I have only played LotRO and SWTOR before this, however it took a lot longer to get to this level in those two games, in terms of actual hours played.

LotrO I can agree with but SWTOR feeds you XP boosts like a drip constantly, you can miss entire planets of content by doing all the quests.

kitsinni · May 2014

I agree enchanting is way off. Even with someone helping you with glyphs it can take forever. Provisioning I was 50 in the teens but recipes were everywhere in the beginning and my guildies gave me all kinds of mats. It is dumb though that you can only cook new foods by getting lucky and finding the recipe. You pretty much have to go through the game looking in every single bag, barrel and crate. It can get old fast when you want to do a quest but feel like you have to search every place there could be a mat.

@Iluvrien Level 34 in this game is the equivilant of about 15 in SWTOR. Don't think of 50 as cap think of 50 as 1/4-1/3 of being at level cap.

Lywen · May 2014

Yes. I've a character below 20 that has Provisioning 50... It seems a little strange to get so high in that craft so quickly when the others take much longer to progress. - And Enchanting really is a problem currently. I can never seem to find enough of the Potency. So I have plenty of Essence, a few Aspect, and... Potency? Currently I have 4 I can't use because I can't level up high enough to do so. - I just got a hireling, so maybe that will help fix that issue a little. (And I heard they should be fixing this some in updates? Making Potency/Aspect more common?)

doggie · May 2014

I actually enjoyed lvling Enchanting to 40. I purchsed glyphs from the trader and sold my own crafted glyphs. If I needed money for a bank upgrade I stopped buying for a day or two and saved up.

It's the only tradeskill that's made me feel ESO is a MMORPG. Provisoning and alchemy I leveld up without much effort in a day or two.

Blacksmithing took me a few weeks deconstruction all materials I found. Reached it at around lvl 45. I'm Vr 6 now after two weeks off the game.

I enjoy the trait progressing in Blacksmithing, it's better than nothing but it's too passive in my opinion. Just log in and start research come back 6-12 days later and it's done. Nothing you can do to improve it.

Way too passive in my opinion, getting the research items is not hard you can get someone to craft one for you after all, it's not like you need to find a drop. I've found every single trait on a drop or in guild store though, but I send traits to players who ask for them in guild channels.

I hope we'll have further progression in Blacksmithing, but a more active one.

Vuron · May 2014

Lywen wrote: »

Yes. I've a character below 20 that has Provisioning 50... It seems a little strange to get so high in that craft so quickly when the others take much longer to progress. - And Enchanting really is a problem currently. I can never seem to find enough of the Potency. So I have plenty of Essence, a few Aspect, and... Potency? Currently I have 4 I can't use because I can't level up high enough to do so. - I just got a hireling, so maybe that will help fix that issue a little. (And I heard they should be fixing this some in updates? Making Potency/Aspect more common?)

I had the opposite problem with Provisioning. I had already leveled clothing, blacksmithing, and alchemy before I decided to start provisioning somewhere around VR8.

I only had 1 low level recipe that I had learned. It was a level 15 recipe that required guar eggs. I had higher level recipes, but you can't use anything else until you hit level 20 in the craft. I spammed zone chat offering to pay very well for low level recipes, searched the guild stores, joined trading guilds just to check for recipes or eggs and none could be found. I paid a huge amount to someone that happened to have 25 eggs and it got me a few levels. I had to farm the starter area for hours and hours, managed to get my hands on a few other recipes that required different ingredients, and was finally able to hit level 20. The process probably took about 6-8 hours of actual game time.

Once I was finally able to hit level 20, I hit level 50 in less than an hour. Does that make sense?

Moonchilde · May 2014

I have a character I'm experimenting with regarding this:
At level 18 I've got Clothing and Enchanting at 11, Alchemy at 25, and Provisioning at 33. This is using only what I find and use myself with no help. But its absolutely EVERYTHING I can find in the zones I can adventure in.

Note that Enchanting would still only be 9 if it weren't for skill raises from books read before I left Stonefalls. I can no longer level Enchanting in any significant way, creating glyphs with the runes I can find only advance the skill by a tiny sliver. I break down all the ones I find, and its just a wee bit larger of a sliver.

I cannot use the more advanced glyphs I have found without raising my Aspect or Potency improvement, which unlocks at rank 15. The stretch from 11 to 15 at this rate will take a very long time. I'm in Deshaan now, so unless I find runes that I can use which advance the skill faster, I'll be going back to lower level zones to farm and grind this skill.

If its any help for documenting this, I can post progress here.

TigerLotus · May 2014

I think there is an imbalance in the amount of different glyphs as well.
I can only speak for the first two zones, but I have hardly found any
round glyphs - and without them I can't craft anything.

Tarukmockto · May 2014

Yeah, it seemed like early zones I couldn't find many Aspect Runes also. About the time Aspect Runes became more plentiful, Potency Runes became harder to find. Such is life.

Iluvrien · May 2014

Ruddertail wrote: »

LotrO I can agree with but SWTOR feeds you XP boosts like a drip constantly, you can miss entire planets of content by doing all the quests.

Both of these are true, LotRO took time. SWTOR was faster... this seems faster still! (I didn't miss any planets, even though I could have done).

kitsinni wrote: »

@Iluvrien Level 34 in this game is the equivilant of about 15 in SWTOR. Don't think of 50 as cap think of 50 as 1/4-1/3 of being at level cap.

I really don't think of 50 as cap in this game. However I only included my level for context (i.e. that I am several tiers into Enchanting and so have an idea about how it progresses).

Even before early access was finished, I was seeing VR players on these forums, some of whom seemed to be complaining, loudly, that Enchanting must be broken based on the fact that they couldn't create glyphs for their level. I continue to see this zone and even, occasionally, in guild channels.

There seems to be a prevailing view that you should be able to Master something like Enchanting quickly. I do not believe this to be true, and have had no trouble in providing glyphs for myself or my guildmates (those who aren't VR at least).