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Stop Balancing ESO Around Group Size
The upcoming Update 51 shield changes are a perfect example of what I think is becoming a really unhealthy direction for ESO's PvP balance.
If a mechanic is available to every player, then the baseline assumption should be that every player is allowed to use that mechanic effectively. Balance the mechanic itself if it is too strong — don't arbitrarily make it weaker because someone decided to bring more people.
The scaling shield nerf based on group size is especially difficult to understand. Once you get into the 10–12 player range, you're effectively being told that shielding becomes dramatically less effective simply because you have more people around you.
Why?
Those players aren't exploiting some external system. They're using abilities and mechanics that the game explicitly gives them. If shields are too strong, then nerf shields. If a particular interaction is broken, fix that interaction. But creating a separate ruleset where a mechanic becomes increasingly ineffective depending on how many people are grouped together is a terrible precedent.
And it creates an absolutely bizarre balance situation.
A group of 4–9 players could potentially become more effective and harder to kill than a full 12-player group, simply because the larger group is being subjected to stronger scaling penalties.
Think about how backwards that is.
You could have 12 coordinated players fighting a smaller group of 6 or 7. The 12-player group has more people, more damage, more healing, more resources and more potential coordination — yet because of artificial group-size scaling, they can have a harder time surviving and a harder time killing the smaller group.
Meanwhile, the smaller group gets to use those same mechanics more effectively.
So the larger group is simultaneously less effective defensively while still being the larger target.
And then you're potentially creating situations where the smaller group has an easier time killing the larger group than the larger group has killing them.
How does that make sense?
If the goal is to discourage large groups from overwhelming smaller groups, this isn't necessarily accomplishing that. You're just creating a situation where the optimal group size becomes some arbitrary number below the maximum.
Why would 8 players be entitled to significantly better functionality than 12?
Why should the game encourage players to split a group into smaller groups purely to avoid mechanical penalties?
That's not addressing the underlying balance problem. It's incentivizing players to manipulate group size.
And this is where the inconsistency becomes even more obvious.
How is it reasonable that a solo player can use Magma Shell and become effectively immortal against a coordinated 12-player group, while that same solo player can potentially use an overtuned DK leap-bomb setup and instantly wipe or devastate that entire group?
What exactly is the balance philosophy there?
If the argument is that large groups shouldn't be able to overwhelm individual players, then why is it acceptable for individual players to have mechanics that can completely invalidate a large group?
You can't have it both ways.
A 12-player group isn't automatically abusing the game simply because it has 12 players. Coordinating that many people, positioning correctly, communicating, maintaining buffs, managing resources, and actually functioning as a group is itself a gameplay investment. If there are mechanics that make organized groups too powerful, then those mechanics should be addressed directly.
Don't punish the player for taking advantage of a system the game intentionally put at their disposal.
And if ZOS is going to start balancing mechanics around "group size," then they need to actually consider what group size means in ESO.
Because a 12-player group isn't necessarily 12 isolated people.
There are plenty of large "zerg guilds" where multiple full groups are communicating together in the same Discord call. You can have three full 12-player groups — roughly 36 players — operating together, communicating targets, coordinating pushes, and synchronizing abilities.
There are groups that do exactly this.
And some of these groups can coordinate things like repeated Negate usage and other extremely powerful group mechanics across multiple parties.
So what exactly is the meaningful distinction here?
If ZOS is concerned about the power of a coordinated 12-player group, then why would the solution be to disproportionately nerf mechanics for that one group size while ignoring the fact that multiple 12-player groups can operate as one larger coordinated force?
If three groups are effectively functioning as a single 36-player organization because they're all communicating in the same Discord, then the problem clearly isn't as simple as "12 people in a group = bad."
You can't solve a coordination problem by looking exclusively at the number displayed in someone's group roster.
And that's why I think the philosophy behind these changes needs to be reconsidered.
Balance needs to be for ALL players.
Not just 12-man groups.
Not just solo players.
Not just small groups.
And certainly not based on whichever group of players happens to complain the loudest on the forums.
There is a huge difference between saying:
"This mechanic is too strong and needs to be nerfed."
and saying:
"I can't solo kill a coordinated group of players, therefore that group needs to be mechanically nerfed."
The second argument is ridiculous.
Of course you can't necessarily solo kill a coordinated group.
They're coordinated. That's the entire point of grouping.
You shouldn't be entitled to kill a competent group of players simply because you're playing solo. If someone wants to play solo, that's completely fine. But the game shouldn't be redesigned around the expectation that a solo player must have a reasonable chance of killing a coordinated group simply because they don't want to group themselves.
Likewise, a coordinated group shouldn't be punished for coordinating.
If shields are too strong, nerf shields.
If Magma Shell is too strong, address Magma Shell.
If DK leap-bomb is too strong, fix DK leap-bomb.
If Negate stacking is too powerful, address Negate stacking.
If a particular interaction is broken, fix the interaction.
But don't take a perfectly functional mechanic and arbitrarily make it worse because more players are using it.
This is also why I think the direction of these changes is a slippery slope.
Today it's shields and group size.
Tomorrow it could be another perfectly legitimate mechanic that gets artificially weakened because a certain number of players are using it together.
Eventually we're not balancing abilities anymore. We're balancing around the complaints of whoever is most upset about losing to them.
And that's a dangerous way to design a PvP game.
The loudest players on the forums shouldn't determine balance simply by complaining the most frequently. PvP is complicated. There are interactions, counters, builds, coordination, positioning, resource management and a huge number of variables that don't show up in a simple "this killed me, therefore it's broken" argument.
If something is genuinely overpowered, nerf the thing.
Don't create increasingly convoluted restrictions based on whether someone is solo, in a small group, or in a large group.
ESO should have a consistent ruleset where players are encouraged to understand the systems, build around them, and use them intelligently. If a mechanic is available to everyone, players shouldn't be penalized for learning how to exploit its strengths within the rules of the game.
Otherwise, we're going to end up with a PvP environment where the answer to every balance problem is simply:
"You used this mechanic with too many people, so now it doesn't really work."
That's not good balance.
That's just putting artificial limitations on gameplay instead of fixing the underlying problems, just because some people who don't even understand the game won't stop complaining that a coordinated group is killing them when they aren't putting in even nearly half the effort to learn the mechanics of the game themselves.
Balance the mechanics, not the number of people using them. And stop penalizing the players who actually put the most time and investment into learning and mastering your game's systems.
If a mechanic is available to every player, then the baseline assumption should be that every player is allowed to use that mechanic effectively. Balance the mechanic itself if it is too strong — don't arbitrarily make it weaker because someone decided to bring more people.
The scaling shield nerf based on group size is especially difficult to understand. Once you get into the 10–12 player range, you're effectively being told that shielding becomes dramatically less effective simply because you have more people around you.
Why?
Those players aren't exploiting some external system. They're using abilities and mechanics that the game explicitly gives them. If shields are too strong, then nerf shields. If a particular interaction is broken, fix that interaction. But creating a separate ruleset where a mechanic becomes increasingly ineffective depending on how many people are grouped together is a terrible precedent.
And it creates an absolutely bizarre balance situation.
A group of 4–9 players could potentially become more effective and harder to kill than a full 12-player group, simply because the larger group is being subjected to stronger scaling penalties.
Think about how backwards that is.
You could have 12 coordinated players fighting a smaller group of 6 or 7. The 12-player group has more people, more damage, more healing, more resources and more potential coordination — yet because of artificial group-size scaling, they can have a harder time surviving and a harder time killing the smaller group.
Meanwhile, the smaller group gets to use those same mechanics more effectively.
So the larger group is simultaneously less effective defensively while still being the larger target.
And then you're potentially creating situations where the smaller group has an easier time killing the larger group than the larger group has killing them.
How does that make sense?
If the goal is to discourage large groups from overwhelming smaller groups, this isn't necessarily accomplishing that. You're just creating a situation where the optimal group size becomes some arbitrary number below the maximum.
Why would 8 players be entitled to significantly better functionality than 12?
Why should the game encourage players to split a group into smaller groups purely to avoid mechanical penalties?
That's not addressing the underlying balance problem. It's incentivizing players to manipulate group size.
And this is where the inconsistency becomes even more obvious.
How is it reasonable that a solo player can use Magma Shell and become effectively immortal against a coordinated 12-player group, while that same solo player can potentially use an overtuned DK leap-bomb setup and instantly wipe or devastate that entire group?
What exactly is the balance philosophy there?
If the argument is that large groups shouldn't be able to overwhelm individual players, then why is it acceptable for individual players to have mechanics that can completely invalidate a large group?
You can't have it both ways.
A 12-player group isn't automatically abusing the game simply because it has 12 players. Coordinating that many people, positioning correctly, communicating, maintaining buffs, managing resources, and actually functioning as a group is itself a gameplay investment. If there are mechanics that make organized groups too powerful, then those mechanics should be addressed directly.
Don't punish the player for taking advantage of a system the game intentionally put at their disposal.
And if ZOS is going to start balancing mechanics around "group size," then they need to actually consider what group size means in ESO.
Because a 12-player group isn't necessarily 12 isolated people.
There are plenty of large "zerg guilds" where multiple full groups are communicating together in the same Discord call. You can have three full 12-player groups — roughly 36 players — operating together, communicating targets, coordinating pushes, and synchronizing abilities.
There are groups that do exactly this.
And some of these groups can coordinate things like repeated Negate usage and other extremely powerful group mechanics across multiple parties.
So what exactly is the meaningful distinction here?
If ZOS is concerned about the power of a coordinated 12-player group, then why would the solution be to disproportionately nerf mechanics for that one group size while ignoring the fact that multiple 12-player groups can operate as one larger coordinated force?
If three groups are effectively functioning as a single 36-player organization because they're all communicating in the same Discord, then the problem clearly isn't as simple as "12 people in a group = bad."
You can't solve a coordination problem by looking exclusively at the number displayed in someone's group roster.
And that's why I think the philosophy behind these changes needs to be reconsidered.
Balance needs to be for ALL players.
Not just 12-man groups.
Not just solo players.
Not just small groups.
And certainly not based on whichever group of players happens to complain the loudest on the forums.
There is a huge difference between saying:
"This mechanic is too strong and needs to be nerfed."
and saying:
"I can't solo kill a coordinated group of players, therefore that group needs to be mechanically nerfed."
The second argument is ridiculous.
Of course you can't necessarily solo kill a coordinated group.
They're coordinated. That's the entire point of grouping.
You shouldn't be entitled to kill a competent group of players simply because you're playing solo. If someone wants to play solo, that's completely fine. But the game shouldn't be redesigned around the expectation that a solo player must have a reasonable chance of killing a coordinated group simply because they don't want to group themselves.
Likewise, a coordinated group shouldn't be punished for coordinating.
If shields are too strong, nerf shields.
If Magma Shell is too strong, address Magma Shell.
If DK leap-bomb is too strong, fix DK leap-bomb.
If Negate stacking is too powerful, address Negate stacking.
If a particular interaction is broken, fix the interaction.
But don't take a perfectly functional mechanic and arbitrarily make it worse because more players are using it.
This is also why I think the direction of these changes is a slippery slope.
Today it's shields and group size.
Tomorrow it could be another perfectly legitimate mechanic that gets artificially weakened because a certain number of players are using it together.
Eventually we're not balancing abilities anymore. We're balancing around the complaints of whoever is most upset about losing to them.
And that's a dangerous way to design a PvP game.
The loudest players on the forums shouldn't determine balance simply by complaining the most frequently. PvP is complicated. There are interactions, counters, builds, coordination, positioning, resource management and a huge number of variables that don't show up in a simple "this killed me, therefore it's broken" argument.
If something is genuinely overpowered, nerf the thing.
Don't create increasingly convoluted restrictions based on whether someone is solo, in a small group, or in a large group.
ESO should have a consistent ruleset where players are encouraged to understand the systems, build around them, and use them intelligently. If a mechanic is available to everyone, players shouldn't be penalized for learning how to exploit its strengths within the rules of the game.
Otherwise, we're going to end up with a PvP environment where the answer to every balance problem is simply:
"You used this mechanic with too many people, so now it doesn't really work."
That's not good balance.
That's just putting artificial limitations on gameplay instead of fixing the underlying problems, just because some people who don't even understand the game won't stop complaining that a coordinated group is killing them when they aren't putting in even nearly half the effort to learn the mechanics of the game themselves.
Balance the mechanics, not the number of people using them. And stop penalizing the players who actually put the most time and investment into learning and mastering your game's systems.
3
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hollow_winds✭✭✭Disagree.
Shield nerf is a long time coming and well overdue. Those that run 12 man groups and rely on shields will just have to adaptPC NA
Necro & NB Main
1vX & Bowgank Style24 -
hollow_winds wrote: »Disagree.
Shield nerf is a long time coming and well overdue. Those that run 12 man groups and rely on shields will just have to adapt
Yes a SHIELD NERF. Not group size nerf. You post the same thing on every thread and never have an actual argument other than "disagree" because you think everyone should just play solo like yourself.6 -
hollow_winds✭✭✭LoganSpencer1 wrote: »hollow_winds wrote: »Disagree.
Shield nerf is a long time coming and well overdue. Those that run 12 man groups and rely on shields will just have to adapt
Yes a SHIELD NERF. Not group size nerf. You post the same thing on every thread and never have an actual argument other than "disagree" because you think everyone should just play solo like yourself.
No need to get hostile when someone disagrees with you. I also have never said "everyone should just play solo", if I have, can you please link me the quote and I'll stand corrected.
You're calling it a "group size nerf" when technically, it's both. You run a group of 12, you won't have as strong as shields as you're used to. I'm calling it a shield nerf because that's what it is. They aren't nerfing anything else you receive in 12 man groups, just the shields. Sorry you don't like the change but everyone that PvP's on this forum has had to adapt to some sort of nerf more than once. Just what it isPC NA
Necro & NB Main
1vX & Bowgank Style6 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Is this not the same exact topic as the thread you already made? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698492/game-mechanic-nerfs-need-to-be-for-everyone-not-a-penalty-for-group-size-and-skill#latest[PC/NA] Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS), Semi-retired Trialist, and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore.
Current GM of Hard Dungeoneers
Tanks: Sorcerer - Necromancer - Templar
DPS: Frost Warden - Stamarc - StamDK - Hybrid NB Healer
Ex-Healer: Warden - Arcanist
Dungeons: 34/34 HMs - 28/28 Tris10 -
Is this not the same exact topic as the thread you already made? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698492/game-mechanic-nerfs-need-to-be-for-everyone-not-a-penalty-for-group-size-and-skill#latest
And your point? Does this make you feel better about something? The same 4-5 people make group play complaint posts every single day, are you copy pasting the links to all of them as well?0 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LoganSpencer1 wrote: »Is this not the same exact topic as the thread you already made? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698492/game-mechanic-nerfs-need-to-be-for-everyone-not-a-penalty-for-group-size-and-skill#latest
And your point? Does this make you feel better about something? The same 4-5 people make group play complaint posts every single day, are you copy pasting the links to all of them as well?
My point: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698830/are-you-fed-up-of-the-constant-nerfs-nerf-threads-for-pvp-balance
I'm not out to get you, repeat threads in general is clearly getting frustrating and yes, this isn't the first time I've made such a comment. I couldn't care less about your argument itself, I'm not a PvPer, this isn't my problem.[PC/NA] Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS), Semi-retired Trialist, and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore.
Current GM of Hard Dungeoneers
Tanks: Sorcerer - Necromancer - Templar
DPS: Frost Warden - Stamarc - StamDK - Hybrid NB Healer
Ex-Healer: Warden - Arcanist
Dungeons: 34/34 HMs - 28/28 Tris8 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭✭The reality is that the “treat every group size exactly the same” argument only really works in a genuinely competitive and balanced PvP game with skill-based matchmaking. ESO is none of those things, especially in 2026.
The average Cyrodiil player is a middle-aged adult logging in after work. They are not going to spend hours optimizing comps, support sets, ult rotations, movement and comms just to survive against a 12-man ball group. When highly optimized groups spend hours farming pugs, it is basically the MMO equivalent of smurfing.
And at this point, ESO PvP should be balanced around fun and keeping people playing. If casual players log in and find four ball groups farming third floors for hours, eventually they just stop logging in. Cyrodiil cannot afford that anymore. The casual pugs are the majority of the population; they are the ones actually filling the campaign and giving ball groups, small scalers and 1vXers something to fight in the first place.
You cannot afford to have the majority of Cyrodiil’s population quit because they are getting effectively smurfed on for hours every time they log in. Ball groups are not what keeps Cyrodiil populated. Small scalers and 1vXers are not what keeps it populated either. It is overwhelmingly the casual pug population that fills the campaign and creates the environment everyone else gets to play in.
There also need to be incentives to run smaller coordinated groups. A 12-man does not simply have more players; it gets disproportionately more value from support sets, healing coverage, buffs, ultimates and role specialization. A very strong 6- or 7-man can still be statistically overwhelmed by a mediocre 12-man simply because of that scaling.
That is why shield and healing downscaling makes sense. It does not make 12-mans weaker than smaller groups. They are still much stronger. It simply reins in the exponential gap and gives groups a reason to stop at 6, 7, 8 or 9 instead of the optimal answer always being “bring 12.”
Twelve players should be stronger than six. They just should not be exponentially stronger, especially at the expense of the casual population keeping Cyrodiil alive.
TO THE PVP COMMUNITY: OUR ABSENCE IS FEEDBACK. DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE JULY 20TH VENGEANCE TESTS.20 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭One of the best changes they have done.
Actually, it might not even be enough. We shall have to seeEdited by Alchimiste1 on August 31, 2026 10:16PM10 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »One of the best changes they have done.
Actually, it might not even be enough. We shall have to see
it will 100% NOT be enough lmaoTO THE PVP COMMUNITY: OUR ABSENCE IS FEEDBACK. DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE JULY 20TH VENGEANCE TESTS.6 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They need to go even harder with this change, starting at a much smaller groups size (4-5).@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2700+ CP ||| @ReactSlower - PC/EU - 1300+ CP ||| React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
ContentTwitch.tv/reactfaster
Youtube.com/@ReactFaster9 -
hollow_winds✭✭✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »The reality is that the “treat every group size exactly the same” argument only really works in a genuinely competitive and balanced PvP game with skill-based matchmaking. ESO is none of those things, especially in 2026.
The average Cyrodiil player is a middle-aged adult logging in after work. They are not going to spend hours optimizing comps, support sets, ult rotations, movement and comms just to survive against a 12-man ball group. When highly optimized groups spend hours farming pugs, it is basically the MMO equivalent of smurfing.
And at this point, ESO PvP should be balanced around fun and keeping people playing. If casual players log in and find four ball groups farming third floors for hours, eventually they just stop logging in. Cyrodiil cannot afford that anymore. The casual pugs are the majority of the population; they are the ones actually filling the campaign and giving ball groups, small scalers and 1vXers something to fight in the first place.
You cannot afford to have the majority of Cyrodiil’s population quit because they are getting effectively smurfed on for hours every time they log in. Ball groups are not what keeps Cyrodiil populated. Small scalers and 1vXers are not what keeps it populated either. It is overwhelmingly the casual pug population that fills the campaign and creates the environment everyone else gets to play in.
There also need to be incentives to run smaller coordinated groups. A 12-man does not simply have more players; it gets disproportionately more value from support sets, healing coverage, buffs, ultimates and role specialization. A very strong 6- or 7-man can still be statistically overwhelmed by a mediocre 12-man simply because of that scaling.
That is why shield and healing downscaling makes sense. It does not make 12-mans weaker than smaller groups. They are still much stronger. It simply reins in the exponential gap and gives groups a reason to stop at 6, 7, 8 or 9 instead of the optimal answer always being “bring 12.”
Twelve players should be stronger than six. They just should not be exponentially stronger, especially at the expense of the casual population keeping Cyrodiil alive.
Well said as I type this from my office at work currently, lol.PC NA
Necro & NB Main
1vX & Bowgank Style3 -
So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it0
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Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).
@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)
People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.
Things to change:
1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)
Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on August 31, 2026 10:39PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)1 -
also the same like 4 forum warriors making these weird arguments as always, but as we all know, cry the loudest and most often until mom and dad says "jfc fine just take it and leave me alone"0
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Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).
@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)
People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.
Things to change:
1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)
Thank you, but group scaling shouldnt be a thing period. If group scaling is going to be a thing, why is even playing in groups allowed? Just as a consolation? This is an MMO, not a 1 on 1 fighter game. Many people play explicitly FOR the group coordination and optimization. What is the point of attempting any of that if people want to say it shouldn't be allowed? Why should healers not be able to play the game... and uh heal people in their group?
Also people keep making discussions about shields scaling off hp; well what should they scale off of? Offensive stats? Then you just have 90% of cyrodiil being unkillable magsorcs who also 2 shot you. Which one do you want? The 50k hp tank who cant do anything but stand there, or the 10k spell damage sorc who also is spamming 40k hardened wards on itself?
I'm only seeing a lot of people basically just complain that people play in groups and that it shouldn't be allowed, which in this type of game is just such a nonsensical argument.0 -
hollow_winds✭✭✭LoganSpencer1 wrote: »So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it
Could you please link where anyone has ever said this? You sure do insult a lot of people on this forum just for not sharing your same view on something. I’ve even said in other threads that ballgroups should exist in the game so I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say herePC NA
Necro & NB Main
1vX & Bowgank Style6 -
hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it
Could you please link where anyone has ever said this? You sure do insult a lot of people on this forum just for not sharing your same view on something. I’ve even said in other threads that ballgroups should exist in the game so I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say here
..chimpanzee literally just did, not 3 comments before yours0 -
hollow_winds✭✭✭LoganSpencer1 wrote: »hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it
Could you please link where anyone has ever said this? You sure do insult a lot of people on this forum just for not sharing your same view on something. I’ve even said in other threads that ballgroups should exist in the game so I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say here
..chimpanzee literally just did, not 3 comments before yours
I read their entire comment and no where does it say what you’re implying. No where does it say “solos should kill a ballgroup”, no where does it say “good players bad”. It mentions balancing current day Cyro which with this nerf is what Zos is attempting to do. You’re a known ballgroup player so of course you won’t agree with it. I enjoyed using Azureblight to wipe ball groups and when Zos nerfed it I had to adapt. It’s part of the game 🤷🏼♂️PC NA
Necro & NB Main
1vX & Bowgank Style6 -
hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it
Could you please link where anyone has ever said this? You sure do insult a lot of people on this forum just for not sharing your same view on something. I’ve even said in other threads that ballgroups should exist in the game so I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say here
..chimpanzee literally just did, not 3 comments before yours
I read their entire comment and no where does it say what you’re implying. No where does it say “solos should kill a ballgroup”, no where does it say “good players bad”. It mentions balancing current day Cyro which with this nerf is what Zos is attempting to do. You’re a known ballgroup player so of course you won’t agree with it. I enjoyed using Azureblight to wipe ball groups and when Zos nerfed it I had to adapt. It’s part of the game 🤷🏼♂️
ok so you just have no idea whats going on, as if i didnt already know that0 -
hollow_winds✭✭✭LoganSpencer1 wrote: »hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it
Could you please link where anyone has ever said this? You sure do insult a lot of people on this forum just for not sharing your same view on something. I’ve even said in other threads that ballgroups should exist in the game so I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say here
..chimpanzee literally just did, not 3 comments before yours
I read their entire comment and no where does it say what you’re implying. No where does it say “solos should kill a ballgroup”, no where does it say “good players bad”. It mentions balancing current day Cyro which with this nerf is what Zos is attempting to do. You’re a known ballgroup player so of course you won’t agree with it. I enjoyed using Azureblight to wipe ball groups and when Zos nerfed it I had to adapt. It’s part of the game 🤷🏼♂️
ok so you just have no idea whats going on, as if i didnt already know that
I guess not. Either way, I’m not going to argue with you. You have your stance and I have mine. I’m for this shield nerf and agree with Reacts point above as well. It’s long overdue and will be healthy for the game
Have a good night 🤙🏻PC NA
Necro & NB Main
1vX & Bowgank Style3 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭✭LoganSpencer1 wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).
@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)
People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.
Things to change:
1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)
Thank you, but group scaling shouldnt be a thing period. If group scaling is going to be a thing, why is even playing in groups allowed? Just as a consolation? This is an MMO, not a 1 on 1 fighter game. Many people play explicitly FOR the group coordination and optimization. What is the point of attempting any of that if people want to say it shouldn't be allowed? Why should healers not be able to play the game... and uh heal people in their group?
Also people keep making discussions about shields scaling off hp; well what should they scale off of? Offensive stats? Then you just have 90% of cyrodiil being unkillable magsorcs who also 2 shot you. Which one do you want? The 50k hp tank who cant do anything but stand there, or the 10k spell damage sorc who also is spamming 40k hardened wards on itself?
I'm only seeing a lot of people basically just complain that people play in groups and that it shouldn't be allowed, which in this type of game is just such a nonsensical argument.
It’s not about group play “not being allowed.” You’re just wrong about what people are actually arguing for.
Yes, some people play Cyrodiil specifically for group coordination and optimization, but plenty of people don’t—in fact, most players aren’t running around in optimized 12-man groups. Cyrodiil has to be enjoyable for those players too.
The proposed changes also aren’t suddenly going to make ball groups incapable of farming unoptimized pugs. You’ll still be stronger, you’ll still have the advantages of communication, composition, support sets, ult coordination, healing, movement, target selection, and everything else that comes with organized play. So if part of the appeal is inflating your ego by smurfing unoptimized pugs, don’t worry—you’ll still be able to do that. The difference is that the gap might finally become a little less absurd.
And if your group is actually half decent, you should be completely fine. Judging by your negate thread, though, where you were complaining about counterplay while playing inside a 12-man ball group, I can understand why you feel so strongly about anything that reduces that advantage.
That’s the whole point: Cyrodiil has to be fun for everyone, not just you and not just highly optimized groups. Group coordination should give you an advantage. It just shouldn’t give you such an overwhelming, multiplicative advantage that the majority of the campaign population exists primarily as content for organized groups to farm.
TO THE PVP COMMUNITY: OUR ABSENCE IS FEEDBACK. DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE JULY 20TH VENGEANCE TESTS.6 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).
@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)
People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.
Things to change:
1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)
For the small-scale groups in the example you gave, you are barely affected by the current version of the shield nerfs in the first place. The meaningful penalties only start becoming significant as group size increases, so using casual small-scale groups as the main argument against group-based shield scaling is pretty misleading.
TO THE PVP COMMUNITY: OUR ABSENCE IS FEEDBACK. DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE JULY 20TH VENGEANCE TESTS.3 -
LadyGP✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »hollow_winds wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »So your guys' arguments are "players are bad, so good players existing as bad because the bad players will quit" and egotistcal solo players who think they should be able to kill 12 mans, got it
Could you please link where anyone has ever said this? You sure do insult a lot of people on this forum just for not sharing your same view on something. I’ve even said in other threads that ballgroups should exist in the game so I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say here
..chimpanzee literally just did, not 3 comments before yours
I read their entire comment and no where does it say what you’re implying. No where does it say “solos should kill a ballgroup”, no where does it say “good players bad”. It mentions balancing current day Cyro which with this nerf is what Zos is attempting to do. You’re a known ballgroup player so of course you won’t agree with it. I enjoyed using Azureblight to wipe ball groups and when Zos nerfed it I had to adapt. It’s part of the game 🤷🏼♂️
ok so you just have no idea whats going on, as if i didnt already know that
I guess not. Either way, I’m not going to argue with you. You have your stance and I have mine. I’m for this shield nerf and agree with Reacts point above as well. It’s long overdue and will be healthy for the game
Have a good night 🤙🏻
Don't worry... these people aren't trying to have an honest conversation with you. They are intentionally misunderstanding what is happening and what the problem is - they just like to pretend we are stupid.LadyGP/xCatGuy
PC/NA
Having network issues? Discconects? DM me and I will help you troubleshoot with PingPlotter to figure out what is going on.5 -
hollow_winds✭✭✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).
@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)
People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.
Things to change:
1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)
For the small-scale groups in the example you gave, you are barely affected by the current version of the shield nerfs in the first place. The meaningful penalties only start becoming significant as group size increases, so using casual small-scale groups as the main argument against group-based shield scaling is pretty misleading.
Agreed. Most PUGS aren’t running strict comped builds with a dedicated shielder in their group let alone all of them running their own shield. Some PUGS may be affected but not in the way ballgroups will bePC NA
Necro & NB Main
1vX & Bowgank Style1 -
Faltasë✭✭✭✭✭You know buffing the individual buffs the group too right? So like... in relation to your title, all buffs are group size buffs lol.
XBOX 2015-2019
PC-NA 2019-2022, 2025-present
Please keep fixing the combat. It's good to fix the combat.
Auri-El is the one true God.2 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
✭@TheAwesomeChimpanzee
[/quote]
The proposed changes also aren’t suddenly going to make ball groups incapable of farming unoptimized pugs. You’ll still be stronger, you’ll still have the advantages of communication, composition, support sets, ult coordination, healing, movement, target selection, and everything else that comes with organized play. So if part of the appeal is inflating your ego by smurfing unoptimized pugs, don’t worry—you’ll still be able to do that. The difference is that the gap might finally become a little less absurd.
[/quote]
This part here I completely agree with. Good ball groups will still do well. They just won't be as strong and that's okay. They have only gotten stronger over the years when compared to non-optimized groups.Edited by Alchimiste1 on September 1, 2026 2:38AM4 -
The proposed changes also aren’t suddenly going to make ball groups incapable of farming unoptimized pugs. You’ll still be stronger, you’ll still have the advantages of communication, composition, support sets, ult coordination, healing, movement, target selection, and everything else that comes with organized play. So if part of the appeal is inflating your ego by smurfing unoptimized pugs, don’t worry—you’ll still be able to do that. The difference is that the gap might finally become a little less absurd.Alchimiste1 wrote: »
[/quote]
This part here I completely agree with. Good ball groups will still do well. They just won't be as strong and that's okay. They have only gotten stronger over the years when compared to non-optimized groups. [/quote]
Yes, it will be totally normal and rational that a 4 man group can still stack every shield ult and be unkillable to a 12 man but the 4 man will be able to kill the 12 man because they have no defense!!! super high iq i agree too wow!0 -
hollow_winds wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).
@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)
People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.
Things to change:
1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)
For the small-scale groups in the example you gave, you are barely affected by the current version of the shield nerfs in the first place. The meaningful penalties only start becoming significant as group size increases, so using casual small-scale groups as the main argument against group-based shield scaling is pretty misleading.
Agreed. Most PUGS aren’t running strict comped builds with a dedicated shielder in their group let alone all of them running their own shield. Some PUGS may be affected but not in the way ballgroups will be
yes nerf things just because pugs cant figure out how to use them too!!!!! omg why didnt they think of this earlier!!!0 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »LoganSpencer1 wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »This change will ironically be awful for pug groups trying to combat the comp groups since it targets all shields not just the ones which are causing issues. (for example if you're just trying to chill and chat to friends in a group whilst smallscaling around the map, now your solo shields are nerfed for no reason).
@LoganSpencer1 is correct that this type of mechanic should not scale based on group size and it will be an overall loss for the game and cause yet more erosion of pug groups whilst 'balls' move onto the next broken thing without issue (or even just kick their worst 2 players and get stronger / run with 3 extra players and split the group into 2)
People are frustrated with the power of groups quite rightly but making the wrong change hurts the situation because we're looking at months and months of knock on issues which will basically never be fixed based on the current track record.
Things to change:
1. Set scaling in groups
2. HoT Stacking / Power of HoTs
3. AOE shields scaling on HP
4. The power of ulti gain in groups (sets and buffs available)
Thank you, but group scaling shouldnt be a thing period. If group scaling is going to be a thing, why is even playing in groups allowed? Just as a consolation? This is an MMO, not a 1 on 1 fighter game. Many people play explicitly FOR the group coordination and optimization. What is the point of attempting any of that if people want to say it shouldn't be allowed? Why should healers not be able to play the game... and uh heal people in their group?
Also people keep making discussions about shields scaling off hp; well what should they scale off of? Offensive stats? Then you just have 90% of cyrodiil being unkillable magsorcs who also 2 shot you. Which one do you want? The 50k hp tank who cant do anything but stand there, or the 10k spell damage sorc who also is spamming 40k hardened wards on itself?
I'm only seeing a lot of people basically just complain that people play in groups and that it shouldn't be allowed, which in this type of game is just such a nonsensical argument.
It’s not about group play “not being allowed.” You’re just wrong about what people are actually arguing for.
Yes, some people play Cyrodiil specifically for group coordination and optimization, but plenty of people don’t—in fact, most players aren’t running around in optimized 12-man groups. Cyrodiil has to be enjoyable for those players too.
The proposed changes also aren’t suddenly going to make ball groups incapable of farming unoptimized pugs. You’ll still be stronger, you’ll still have the advantages of communication, composition, support sets, ult coordination, healing, movement, target selection, and everything else that comes with organized play. So if part of the appeal is inflating your ego by smurfing unoptimized pugs, don’t worry—you’ll still be able to do that. The difference is that the gap might finally become a little less absurd.
And if your group is actually half decent, you should be completely fine. Judging by your negate thread, though, where you were complaining about counterplay while playing inside a 12-man ball group, I can understand why you feel so strongly about anything that reduces that advantage.
That’s the whole point: Cyrodiil has to be fun for everyone, not just you and not just highly optimized groups. Group coordination should give you an advantage. It just shouldn’t give you such an overwhelming, multiplicative advantage that the majority of the campaign population exists primarily as content for organized groups to farm.
"most people are bad, so youre not allowed to be good, or the bad players will quit!!!!" omg oh noooo!!!!0