Are you fed up of the constant nerfs & nerf threads for PvP balance?

playsforfun · August 31

Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.

ItsNotLiving · August 31

No

I’ll vote yes as soon as Yandir or Yolnahkriin come on to the forum to complain.

LadyGP · August 31

No

The fact there are so many of these threads (and ball group threads) and not a single acknowledgment from Zos about them tells you everything you need to know.

Just a thought - maybe there is a problem that needs to be addressed and ignoring it hoping it will go away might not be the best strat.

- xcatguy

DenverRalphy · August 31

While I will sometimes sigh in mild frustration when sifting through mulitple PvP centric nerf/buff threads, I don't begrudge anyone for posting or replying to them.

Though I wouldn't hate it if there were a forum channel specific to PvP focused threads.

Four_Fingers · August 31

Yes

Yes, because the nerf cries come from the same 5 or 6 people, ad nauseum.

playsforfun · August 31

Yes

DenverRalphy wrote: »

While I will sometimes sigh in mild frustration when sifting through mulitple PvP centric nerf/buff threads, I don't begrudge anyone for posting or replying to them.

Though I wouldn't hate it if there were a forum channel specific to PvP focused threads.

There is one they all come to general discussions though because they think they get heard more because no one use the PvP thread or know it exists like yourself

playsforfun · August 31

Yes

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Yes, because the nerf cries come from the same 5 or 6 people, ad nauseum.

Exactly this, always the same few posters

LadyGP · August 31

No

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Yes, because the nerf cries come from the same 5 or 6 people, ad nauseum.

Funny, the ball group defenders come from the same 4-5 people, you being the main one.

LadyGP · August 31

No

playsforfun wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

While I will sometimes sigh in mild frustration when sifting through mulitple PvP centric nerf/buff threads, I don't begrudge anyone for posting or replying to them.

Though I wouldn't hate it if there were a forum channel specific to PvP focused threads.

There is one they all come to general discussions though because they think they get heard more because no one use the PvP thread or know it exists like yourself

PvP section is where threads go to die - everyone knows this. Zos may "look" at the threads but they hardly ever talk in there and I can't really think of a single thing zos implemented based on feedback there.

Don't hate the PvPers because they have to come here to be heard. Also, maybe if ZoS would have made PvE/PvP rulesets more detailed for sets/skills you would have ended alot of these nerf/buff battle conversations years ago.

Lucasl402 · August 31

No

playsforfun wrote: »

Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.

PvE players ARE NOT victims of the PvP players. They just aren't.

Sets and skills are nerfed because they are over performing. It's just that the PvP players typically know how to make builds better than most PvE players and can get more out of them, so the OP nature of something is more obvious in a PvP environment.

Four_Fingers · August 31

Yes

LadyGP wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Yes, because the nerf cries come from the same 5 or 6 people, ad nauseum.

Funny, the ball group defenders come from the same 4-5 people, you being the main one.

This thread didn't even mention ball groups, but somehow, you always manage to make it about ball groups.

I rest my case.

Ingenon · August 31

I am okay with folks that play ESO grumbling about things they do not like.

Separately, I wish for every update that ZOS would have someone (does not have to be a ZOS developer) post the dummy parse for every class (on the Target Iron Atronach, Trial). And my dream would be if every update every class dummy parse would be within 10% of every other class. And my dream would be if class mastery buffs made it so that no subclass/vampire/werewolf build got more that 10% higher on the dummy parse than every class build. Folks would still post that for specific trials, dungeons, arenas, etc. that there would be a meta build. But most players could "Play How You Want". Well, at least for PvE. Fixing balance for PvP in my opinion would require specific Battle Spirit adjustments.

tomofhyrule · August 31

No

I realize a lot of people don't understand this, but PvP is also a part of this game.

If things are overperforming, they should be brought back into parity. And yes, this affects PvE as well - there are groups that can clear vAS+2 in under a minute, which is ridiculous. Power Creep has just gone in one direction, and too much of it just means the meta shifts all at once.

Yes, the U35 nerfs were devastating. But that only means that things shouldn't release broken, which means the Combat team needs to actually take account of how things are performing while they're on PTS, and not just let things release that can do everything.

After all, the reason that Heavy Attack builds are looked at the way they are is because of things being overpowered in PvE.

I really have a feeling that a lot of the "waa stop with the balance" people really would have no issue if ZOS put in a skill that was essentially 'does 1 Billion damage in 1000 meters for zero cost,' because "the PvE bosses don't complain."

Freelancer_ESO · August 31

I think with both the upper areas of PvP and PvE you don't want to end up excessively catering to it but, at the same point you don't want to leave it excessively broken.

Look, most of the time you are going to have some meta builds that are going to be better than others.

However, you don't want to drive the margins on those builds so high that other builds don't work at all.

I think the reality is that the reworks and class mastery have put a significant amount of effort and focus into trying to make all of the class focused and WW builds more competitive especially when it comes towards high level PvE.

They've had some success in that regard but, it has at times come at the cost of the balance getting messed up in other areas of the game.

Sooner or later, some of that is probably going to need to get cleaned up which is going to mean that things will need to be nerfed.

DenverRalphy · August 31

Lucasl402 wrote: »

playsforfun wrote: »

Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.

PvE players ARE NOT victims of the PvP players. They just aren't.

Sets and skills are nerfed because they are over performing. It's just that the PvP players typically know how to make builds better than most PvE players and can get more out of them, so the OP nature of something is more obvious in a PvP environment.

PvE players are quite capable of theorycrafting and making builds to squeeze out every last bit of power they can out of them. The only difference is that the monsters in PvE aren't capable of screaming for nerfs.

Horace-Wimp · August 31

Yes

PvP is for players that can't handle PvE. ESO is a PvE game that just happens to have PvP for some reason.

BardokRedSnow · August 31

Yes

I voted yes because I wanted no class nerfs and for Zos to just buff classes instead that were underperforming but since Zos caved and went back to their old meta, it is what it is.

Now that nerfs are on the table we may as well level the playing field

Destai · August 31

Yes

Absolutely.

And it's one of the primary reasons I've no confidence in this game's combat direction anymore. They literally just overhauled WW and DK, and now they're getting nerfed. And as someone who's been around for most of the game's life, it's a tired cycle. It really is.

It's just unreal that people can come here, demonstrate the impact of their nerfs, show parse, show proof, and they keep making the same moves. There's no reason why ZOS can't show their parses to justify their decisions. Maybe they're not parsing to test their changes. Their decisions feel more driven by analytics and aggregated player feedback than actual lived experiences.

valenwood_vegan · August 31

Yes

Destai wrote: »

Absolutely.
And it's one of the primary reasons I've no confidence in this game's combat direction anymore. They literally just overhauled WW and DK, and now they're getting nerfed. And as someone who's been around for most of the game's life, it's a tired cycle. It really is.

Yeah this. I've gotta clarify that I'm not trying to "blame pvp'ers", as it's part of the game and it's valid for them to voice their concerns. It's a directionless combat team and years of feeling like we're still in beta. I had a bit of hope with the class refreshes, but I can't do literal years of this cycle. By the time they get to the later classes (if they even follow through), the original refreshes will have been tinkered with and nerfed such that they'll need refreshes. Although communication from parts of zos has improved under the new leadership, communication from the combat team has not, significantly exacerbating the issue.

And then it's made even worse by the lack of any real content. It feels like the only direction anymore is to take the same old classes and skills and throw them in a pot and shake them around every few months. And for what? Why would I invest in changing my build when it's just going to be tossed in the pot again before there's anything new to even do with it. Maybe I'm just burned out, but then so are a lot of the people I've played with.

Destai · August 31

Yes

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

Absolutely.
And it's one of the primary reasons I've no confidence in this game's combat direction anymore. They literally just overhauled WW and DK, and now they're getting nerfed. And as someone who's been around for most of the game's life, it's a tired cycle. It really is.

Yeah this. I've gotta clarify that I'm not trying to "blame pvp'ers", as it's part of the game and it's valid for them to voice their concerns. It's a directionless combat team and years of feeling like we're still in beta. I had a bit of hope with the class refreshes, but I can't do literal years of this cycle. By the time they get to the later classes (if they even follow through), the original refreshes will have been tinkered with and nerfed such that they'll need refreshes. Although communication from parts of zos has improved under the new leadership, communication from the combat team has not, significantly exacerbating the issue.

And then it's made even worse by the lack of any real content. It feels like the only direction anymore is to take the same old classes and skills and throw them in a pot and shake them around every few months. And for what? Why would I invest in changing my build when it's just going to be tossed in the pot again before there's anything new to even do with it. Maybe I'm just burned out, but then so are a lot of the people I've played with.

Yeah, I'm not trying to blame PVPers either. Frustration about ball groups or insurmountable strategies is warranted. But as a PVE player, it feels like there's always something. And all too often, it comes back to us, where our creativity and diversity is impacted. I have the controversial opinion at this point - largely due to how ZOS handles things - is that don't even bother balancing anymore. Try that approach for the next 10 years.

And you're right, every team but the combat team has improved their communication. To date, they haven't been able to articulate to us what is left before combat is truly finished. To your point, feels like we're still in beta TBH. To their credit, they've better explained how PTS works, but the same underlying problems still exist.

Kilthor69 · August 31

Yes

LadyGP wrote: »

The fact there are so many of these threads (and ball group threads) and not a single acknowledgment from Zos about them tells you everything you need to know.

Just a thought - maybe there is a problem that needs to be addressed and ignoring it hoping it will go away might not be the best strat.

- xcatguy

The problem is the PVP'ers complain nerf everything and when it happens double down on the complaints that balance is off. I think it is time to stop listening to the PVP'ers and start concentraing on PVE sections again. Time to go back and create new areas and new stories.

playsforfun · August 31

Yes

Kilthor69 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

The fact there are so many of these threads (and ball group threads) and not a single acknowledgment from Zos about them tells you everything you need to know.

Just a thought - maybe there is a problem that needs to be addressed and ignoring it hoping it will go away might not be the best strat.

- xcatguy

The problem is the PVP'ers complain nerf everything and when it happens double down on the complaints that balance is off. I think it is time to stop listening to the PVP'ers and start concentraing on PVE sections again. Time to go back and create new areas and new stories.

This is the issue they just keep coming back with screaming to nerf something else it's cycle that just keeps repeating

playsforfun · August 31

Yes

Destai wrote: »

Absolutely.

And it's one of the primary reasons I've no confidence in this game's combat direction anymore. They literally just overhauled WW and DK, and now they're getting nerfed. And as someone who's been around for most of the game's life, it's a tired cycle. It really is.

It's just unreal that people can come here, demonstrate the impact of their nerfs, show parse, show proof, and they keep making the same moves. There's no reason why ZOS can't show their parses to justify their decisions. Maybe they're not parsing to test their changes. Their decisions feel more driven by analytics and aggregated player feedback than actual lived experiences.

This is why I made this post because I want to show them how much they are disrupting the other side of things & how bad it is getting within the community because of it, people are leaving left & right because of the constant nerfs to their play styles when being told play how you want to, PvP is the minority in this game & we already know how this poll ends up as it's basically a PvE v PvP poll but it demonstrates how much people are fed up of it, too many nerfs in such a short space of time, this is an nearly 12 year old game we don't need the nerf hammer so hard & fast, I understand why they are doing it but the minority shouldn't come over the majority.

Oceanchanter · August 31

Yes

Yeah, because the only legit concern about nerfs are WWs and DKs.

Which, mind you, werent planned to be that imbalanced for this long (we were supposed to get Warden's refresh this or last month) but life and layoffs happened.

The rest is just whatever is a subjective grudge of some PvP players have that week against a specific skill they fell victim to because someone found a creative way to use it.
(Its never the skill they like to spam a lot)
Like calls for Sorc's Negate to be nerfed/"be done something about it cause it's brainrot"
Maybe 3, or generous 5, people will agree, then "ZOS doesn't listen", "ZOS ignores us", "ZOS refuses to acknowledge what we say" cause there's no update on live or PTS servers 3-4h later.

We should really have a dedicated cathegory for "nerf this and nerf that" posts so they won't clutter general discissions.
A dedicated complaining space for PvPers

Arunei · August 31

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I realize a lot of people don't understand this, but PvP is also a part of this game.

If things are overperforming, they should be brought back into parity. And yes, this affects PvE as well - there are groups that can clear vAS+2 in under a minute, which is ridiculous. Power Creep has just gone in one direction, and too much of it just means the meta shifts all at once.

That's because ZOS has created an environment where the power creep thrives. Every major update brings either new OP Sets/a Mythic, or existing Sets/Skills get buffed somehow, and nothing has ever been done to balance all that out. Thus slowly but surely the power creep grows higher and higher over the years. Does anyone remember when like....60k was considered enough DPS for Vet Stuff?

If ZOS introduced something like a soft damage cap, or balanced every new Set/change to existing stuff to all roughly be within the same 5% of each other when it comes to DPS, then we'd see power creep slow down quite a bit. There are things ZOS can do to counter power creep they just...don't do it. Nerfs don't accomplish anything, if they did power creep would have been ended years ago; the people who contribute most to the power creep are never affected by nerfs. Which isn't to say they're bad people or that it's their fault or anything. My point is nerfs to lower effectiveness of things in PvE because of power creep will never stop the power creep.

Lucasl402 wrote: »

playsforfun wrote: »

Nearly every post these days on this forum is a nerf this & nerf that for the sake of PvP, I for one am getting sick of seeing it & having nerfs in PvE & PvP for the sake of PvP balance to the point I am questioning if I should continue playing the game I have played since beta if the nerf hammer is going to keep effecting builds I do, mats ain't cheap & it's time consuming.

PvE players ARE NOT victims of the PvP players. They just aren't.

Sets and skills are nerfed because they are over performing. It's just that the PvP players typically know how to make builds better than most PvE players and can get more out of them, so the OP nature of something is more obvious in a PvP environment.

Except they are. Things overperforming in PvP shouldn't affect PvE if the thing isn't OP there, but more often than not that winds up being the case. It's one thing if something in PvE truly is overperforming and needs adjusting, it's another thing entirely when it's working fine for PvE but in PvP it's deemed "too stronk" and the nerfs get applied globally to that thing.

ZOS has numerous ways of separating PvP and PvE and time and again they don't make use of them. Sometimes they do, but it's not often.

Soarora · August 31

Yes

Look, I understand PvP balance doesn’t feel great for PvPers and they deserve to enjoy the part of the game they play. But it’s not even one thread per topic. Like, okay… DK and WW got nerfed. Then this happened:
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697979/streak-needs-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread in response to that thread instead of just posting in that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698461/no-streak-does-not-need-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697936/sorcs-need-nerfs-in-pvp-same-as-dk-and-ww#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698698/if-sorc-gets-a-fantastic-burst-heal-from-scribing-nb-arc-should-get-a-fantastic-cleanse-too#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc (and DK and WW): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697811/pvp-has-become-exhausting-along-with-the-state-of-the-game#latest
- A thread complaining about people wanting DK and WW nerfed because now it'll just be sorcs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697864/now-we-have-only-sorcs-in-cyrodil#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698546/less-nerfs#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698724/pvp-balance-should-not-be-drastically-considered-more-than-pve-balance-not-again#latest

It's not like it's a PvPer problem, it's a person problem. I've been in topics where there's an explosion of threads and it's exhausting trying to remember what argument was where all whilst just arguing with the same people over and over.

Edit: But I do want to add that the part that I see exclusively with PvPers is quickly moving onto the next thing to cry nerf about. U51 isn't even live and immediately you all have moved onto sorc. Pattern recognition triggers and it makes it seem like sorc will be nerfed and you'll just start complaining about DK again or nightblade or some specific proc set.

Luneca · August 31

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I voted yes because I wanted no class nerfs and for Zos to just buff classes instead that were underperforming but since Zos caved and went back to their old meta, it is what it is.

Now that nerfs are on the table we may as well level the playing field

ZOS was going to do that anyway because power creep is now officially a part of the content cycle. Where it followed before as an effect of content being added, it now is the content.

That's a big distinction and why I say that balance will never be achieved. It's no longer about how right and wrong something is, but whether the changes bring interest and a cyclical playerbase back into the game.

That's definitely a poor approach long-term, but cycling players has worked for them in the past so I have no doubt that they think it's a sound one currently.

It's just a shame that the consequences will be a net loss of players over time.

Daoin · August 31

No

because why say yes

Destai · August 31

Yes

Soarora wrote: »

Look, I understand PvP balance doesn’t feel great for PvPers and they deserve to enjoy the part of the game they play. But it’s not even one thread per topic. Like, okay… DK and WW got nerfed. Then this happened:
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697979/streak-needs-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread in response to that thread instead of just posting in that thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698461/no-streak-does-not-need-a-cc-nerf#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697936/sorcs-need-nerfs-in-pvp-same-as-dk-and-ww#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698698/if-sorc-gets-a-fantastic-burst-heal-from-scribing-nb-arc-should-get-a-fantastic-cleanse-too#latest
- A thread complaining about sorc (and DK and WW): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697811/pvp-has-become-exhausting-along-with-the-state-of-the-game#latest
- A thread complaining about people wanting DK and WW nerfed because now it'll just be sorcs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697864/now-we-have-only-sorcs-in-cyrodil#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698546/less-nerfs#latest
- A thread wanting less nerfs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698724/pvp-balance-should-not-be-drastically-considered-more-than-pve-balance-not-again#latest

It's not like it's a PvPer problem, it's a person problem. I've been in topics where there's an explosion of threads and it's exhausting trying to remember what argument was where all whilst just arguing with the same people over and over.

Edit: But I do want to add that the part that I see exclusively with PvPers is quickly moving onto the next thing to cry nerf about. U51 isn't even live and immediately you all have moved onto sorc. Pattern recognition triggers and it makes it seem like sorc will be nerfed and you'll just start complaining about DK again or nightblade or some specific proc set.

This totally validates why I feel like they should stop balancing PVP. It's just not doable. There will always be something. And even if were doable, ZOS has clearly demonstrated they either cannot or will not fully separate said balancing. I'd rather see them get PVE to a point where more playstyles are relevant - and worth investing in - than keep trying to balance PVP.

We've had a decade+ of this, it's time to try something different. And FWIW, this is why I think Vengeance is great.

OsUfi · August 31

No

No. But then I also think power creep is out of control. I wouldn't mind soft or hard caps to bring dps back to 100k dps being about max. Nothing to do with PvP. I just think everythin went crazy this last couple of years and the game could do with a huge power nerf.

ketsparrowhawk · August 31

No

Plenty of buff requests for Necromancer, Nightblade, Arcanist, Templar lately.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Are you fed up of the constant nerfs & nerf threads for PvP balance?

Are you fed up of the constant nerfs & nerf threads for PvP balance? 132 votes