warsulxan wrote: »

buff others is better

Grasshoppermouse wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

I would be perfectly happy if all these changes were pvp only and they left everything the same in PvE

I also would be happy if all these changes were in PvP only, but since the devs rarely separate PvP and PvE despite having the ability to do so, we have to contend with the reality that they won't be.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

warsulxan wrote: »

buff others is better

These ppl aren’t going to stop unless sorc is deleted altogether. Then it will turn out it wasn’t the reason they weren’t doing well and they’ll blame something else. It’s always been this way. It’s not about reason

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well, just to summarize some sorcerer PvP history:

U40 - sorcerer WINS 1v1 tournament on PC NA. It even win with templar at finals, despise the fact that 1v1 arena is most favourable environment for templar. Conclusion: sorcerer is definetely the strongest PvP class U40.

U40 - clear S tier

U41 - hardened ward buff, now also heals you. Also 10% stam + mag.

U41 - clear S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes.

U42 - scribing is introduced - sorcerer can now use sciribing spammable to become even more powerful. Other classes benefit as well, but sorc benefits the most.

U42 - S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes

U43-45 - no change

U46 - sublclassing is introduced, hardened ward is nerfed - ZOS realizes that if they not neft ward, absolutely everyone will use it.

U46 - of course subclassing is stronger than sorc.

U47 - no change

U48 - There is 1v1 pure class tourmament on PC EU - sorcerers got places 2 and 3, beaten only by 1 templar in most favourable environment for templar, which is closed arena.

Conclussion: if subclassing gets disabled, sorc is strongest PvP class, which is absolutely expected considering U40 sorcerer didn't need buffed ward to be S-tier.

U49 - DK gets OMEGABUFF, wrongly called "rework" (infinite sustain, 8% more healing, 10% more dmg, 25% more dmg whip, minor heroism, 100% stronger dots, 10% more crit dmg, minor breach) - DK of course becomes strongest class. Sorcerer is second.

U50 - class masteries got introduced, sorcerer receives the strongest ones. Conservetion of energy not only gives them hardened ward heal 2.0, it gives them heal on every skill + infinite sustation

U50 - DK and sorc are S+++ tier, other classes are like 3 tiers below, almost nobody plays other classes.

U51 - DK getting nerfed, Sorc getting little nerfed.

U51 prediction - Sorc again the strongest class, dk close second. Other classes will be closer, sure, but still can't touch DK and sorc.

Conclusion looking 10 patches behind: even if you completely remove Conservation of energy, sorcerer can still use font of power and calculated defense and still be strongest PvP class. Even if he can't kill DK, he can always run away with streak.

Root cause of the problem:

Ppl cannot understand that sorc biggest strength is his mobility. Considering sorc is most mobile class, it SHOULD be the weakest class when caught. Then sorc players lose some 1v1, and they cry about sorc lacking burst heal, weak spammable, etc. - they don't understand that sorc relies on mobility, they want to win 1v1. That is why sorc is the most problematic class.

Mage is not supposed to beat knight in 1v1 melee fight. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

We can also look back even further:

U30 to U32 - Dark Convergence, Hrothgar's Chill and Plaguebreak are released around this time and are hard carrying every single class in the game. Didn't matter what class you were on, as long as you had those sets, you could perform well in PvP.

U33 - Resto staff is BiS back bar, and allows for every class to be competitive. Every class was performing in PvP during this patch.

U34 - Savage Werewolf proc-sorc becomes meta due to the build being made public and savage werewolf being insanely overtuned and having interactions that it never should have had (working at range, working with modifiers like overload, and tick stacking with large individual ticks). Oakensoul also released, that was a huge carry for every class (remember perma corrosive DK and unkillable 1 bar necro bombers running rampant in this meta? I remember these builds, they were extremely overpowered and basically just got a slap on the wrist compared to what Sorc gets next patch.)

U35 - ZOS guts everything about Sorcerer, from damage, to healing and more, so much so that ZOS had to panic buff 2 abilities (prey and armaments) directly and 2 more (pets) indirectly by 100% or MORE in the final week of that PTS just to have the class playable on a heavy attack build for PvE and this was during a period where big changes did not happen mid-PTS cycle. Sorcerer vanishes from PvP overnight.

U36 - No changes, Sorcerer is so dead that the kill Sorcerers quest in PvP is an instant-abandon.

U37 - No changes, still the same as U36.

U38 - ZOS gives Sorcerer some small and long overdue QoL improvements (pets mostly, but curse also made unblockable) and also allows Hardened Ward to scale off max health. Sorcerer gains 1 viable PvP build (40k+ health with draugrkin boosted Crushing Shock for damage). Not a top tier class and still weak to sustained pressure just now with a cushion against most burst, but at least it now has a build, so some Sorcerers return to PvP.

U39 - No change, remains the same as U38.

U40 - No change, remains the same as U38/39 while most players have also figured out by now that NB is the undisputed king of PvP due to the buffs it received in U35 and is unmatched this patch (especially open world) until PTS for U41 drops that has massive buffs for Sorcerers so people jump on Sorc in preparation for the incoming buffs.

U41 - ZOS overbuffs the numbers on Hardened Ward, gives it a heal, increases mag scaling, makes Curse fully AoE (undodgable) and a few other buffs. Ward is clearly overperforming and carrying the class. So much so that "tournaments" ban ward specifically just like they ban cloak from NB (the only reason NB doesn't "perform" in these tournaments and also part of the reason I never take these tournaments seriously for balance arguments since they constantly neuter different aspects of all classes that always ends up with biased results, take the U40 tournament where other classes had half their skills banned while Sorc was basically left almost full strength because organizers didn't think it was strong, well of course it wins when its basically "full power" while only having to verse what are essentially half classes every time).

U42 - Scribing introduced, Sorc gets a burst heal (although unneeded due to ward still being overtuned), a spammable option with actually relevant secondary effects.

U43 - ZOS adjusts mag scaling slightly and reduces the heal on Ward and curse is made blockable. Sorc still top tier alongside NB, just no longer pushing ahead of NB. Otherwise no change.

U44/45 - NB and Sorc still the top tier classes in PvP, although 2h Health Wardens with charm start making an appearance alongside them as the warden build gets figured out.

U46 - Sub-classing introduced, everyone is immediately on Animal Companions + Assassination + either Restoring Light, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, or whatever the best line to keep is from their class. Sub-classing immediately takes over the meta.

Late U46 to U48 - Subclassing remains the meta, but now Warden becomes the must have base class specifically for scribed charm. Storm Calling still a popular line, but Sorcerer as a class only remains as the base class of choice for Sorc mains with everyone else jumping on Warden specifically for Charm.

U49 - DK refresh essentially turns DK into god-mode since there's no other refreshed class in the game. DK is unmatched in PvP.

U50 - Class masteries introduced alongside WW refresh, WW is on par with DK, and Sorcs masteries are enough to lift it into third, but the masteries also happen to synergize with WW pushing WW ahead of DK because of this interaction with the masteries that should have not been allowed in the first place.

Proposed changes for U51 - DK receiving the tiniest of nerfs that will make almost zero difference to the overall strength of the class (especially when accounting for the raw buffs as well as ease of use given to landslide), Sorc receiving some nerfs, but none of the nerfs actually directly target the reasons CoE was so strong (health costs and core combat), so problem builds will remain largely unchanged while other Sorc builds will fall off quickly resulting in seeming like more sorcs, but realistically it will just be more of the same problematic builds and less other builds, WW receives nerfs to it's sustain, it now shifts to third place overall with arguments to be made that DK wolf may come out ahead of any other wolf in PvP, rivaling sorc wolf.

Conclusion looking at 20 patches in the past: Mobility is clearly strong, but it is also clearly not enough on its own, especially when so much generic mobility has been given to every class over the years. There has been zero adjustments to streak across the past 20 patches, yet sorc has fluctuated from unplayable (when it only had mobility and nothing else) to top tier (due to other areas being given overtuned buffs) despite Streak remaining the same that entire time.

Root cause of the issue: Other players cannot understand or accept that Sorc NEEDS to have that mobility and that the other classes not designed around that mobility should NOT have access to mobility that is even remotely close to Sorc, otherwise something has to give.
Other players cried for years about Sorcs running away to reset the fight like they expect the Sorc to just stand there like a training dummy and just take their damage when the class was clearly not designed for that, so ZOS tried to placate these people by introducing far too many low investment speed/mobility options (on top of the gap closers and CCs that already existed that were effective against Sorc but people just refused to utilize) that were all generically available to every class without understanding why so much generic mobility on top of existing strong soft counter options has only caused balance issues across the entire game (including the desync issues that forced the melee range increase a few years ago).

If Sorc is to be the mobility class relying on escaping/distance to heal up and reset or to try and line up it's multi-GCD combos, it needs to be THE mobility class, not just a mobility class, THE mobility class. That means other classes need to learn to not complain about Sorcs running away because that is the intended design of the class while other classes are designed differently where all of them (with the exception of NB) rely on raw mitigation and healing instead of avoiding damage (NB is supposed to rely on stealth to avoid damage, not speed, as mobility is Sorcerers intended design but this is another topic and one that was made it's own issue in U35 when ZOS gave NB brawler abilities that made every actual brawler class jealous).

The current state of Sorcerer is literally a case of be careful what you (generic "you" not specific person) wish for. Non-sorcs in the past cried about sorcs running away/creating distance to defend itself or try to set up a combo, instead of just standing there like a training dummy, so ZOS caved in and gave everyone options to easily chase down Sorcerers, completely neutering what was supposed to make Sorcerer unique all because non-sorcs refused to even try the existing options. Well something had to give, either the generic speed/mobility options were heavily nerfed back to more balanced values or ZOS heavily restricted access to them (something non-sorcs would never accept) or Sorc had to be given tools to defend itself in close quarters since it could no longer reliably escape/create distance since every class had near capped (or capped) mobility.

Heavy armor/high mitigation/high healing knights should not be able to chase down highly mobile mages. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well, just to summarize some sorcerer PvP history:

U40 - sorcerer WINS 1v1 tournament on PC NA. It even win with templar at finals, despise the fact that 1v1 arena is most favourable environment for templar. Conclusion: sorcerer is definetely the strongest PvP class U40.

U40 - clear S tier

U41 - hardened ward buff, now also heals you. Also 10% stam + mag.

U41 - clear S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes.

U42 - scribing is introduced - sorcerer can now use sciribing spammable to become even more powerful. Other classes benefit as well, but sorc benefits the most.

U42 - S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes

U43-45 - no change

U46 - sublclassing is introduced, hardened ward is nerfed - ZOS realizes that if they not neft ward, absolutely everyone will use it.

U46 - of course subclassing is stronger than sorc.

U47 - no change

U48 - There is 1v1 pure class tourmament on PC EU - sorcerers got places 2 and 3, beaten only by 1 templar in most favourable environment for templar, which is closed arena.

Conclussion: if subclassing gets disabled, sorc is strongest PvP class, which is absolutely expected considering U40 sorcerer didn't need buffed ward to be S-tier.

U49 - DK gets OMEGABUFF, wrongly called "rework" (infinite sustain, 8% more healing, 10% more dmg, 25% more dmg whip, minor heroism, 100% stronger dots, 10% more crit dmg, minor breach) - DK of course becomes strongest class. Sorcerer is second.

U50 - class masteries got introduced, sorcerer receives the strongest ones. Conservetion of energy not only gives them hardened ward heal 2.0, it gives them heal on every skill + infinite sustation

U50 - DK and sorc are S+++ tier, other classes are like 3 tiers below, almost nobody plays other classes.

U51 - DK getting nerfed, Sorc getting little nerfed.

U51 prediction - Sorc again the strongest class, dk close second. Other classes will be closer, sure, but still can't touch DK and sorc.

Conclusion looking 10 patches behind: even if you completely remove Conservation of energy, sorcerer can still use font of power and calculated defense and still be strongest PvP class. Even if he can't kill DK, he can always run away with streak.

Root cause of the problem:

Ppl cannot understand that sorc biggest strength is his mobility. Considering sorc is most mobile class, it SHOULD be the weakest class when caught. Then sorc players lose some 1v1, and they cry about sorc lacking burst heal, weak spammable, etc. - they don't understand that sorc relies on mobility, they want to win 1v1. That is why sorc is the most problematic class.

Mage is not supposed to beat knight in 1v1 melee fight. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

We can also look back even further:

U30 to U32 - Dark Convergence, Hrothgar's Chill and Plaguebreak are released around this time and are hard carrying every single class in the game. Didn't matter what class you were on, as long as you had those sets, you could perform well in PvP.

U33 - Resto staff is BiS back bar, and allows for every class to be competitive. Every class was performing in PvP during this patch.

U34 - Savage Werewolf proc-sorc becomes meta due to the build being made public and savage werewolf being insanely overtuned and having interactions that it never should have had (working at range, working with modifiers like overload, and tick stacking with large individual ticks). Oakensoul also released, that was a huge carry for every class (remember perma corrosive DK and unkillable 1 bar necro bombers running rampant in this meta? I remember these builds, they were extremely overpowered and basically just got a slap on the wrist compared to what Sorc gets next patch.)

U35 - ZOS guts everything about Sorcerer, from damage, to healing and more, so much so that ZOS had to panic buff 2 abilities (prey and armaments) directly and 2 more (pets) indirectly by 100% or MORE in the final week of that PTS just to have the class playable on a heavy attack build for PvE and this was during a period where big changes did not happen mid-PTS cycle. Sorcerer vanishes from PvP overnight.

U36 - No changes, Sorcerer is so dead that the kill Sorcerers quest in PvP is an instant-abandon.

U37 - No changes, still the same as U36.

U38 - ZOS gives Sorcerer some small and long overdue QoL improvements (pets mostly, but curse also made unblockable) and also allows Hardened Ward to scale off max health. Sorcerer gains 1 viable PvP build (40k+ health with draugrkin boosted Crushing Shock for damage). Not a top tier class and still weak to sustained pressure just now with a cushion against most burst, but at least it now has a build, so some Sorcerers return to PvP.

U39 - No change, remains the same as U38.

U40 - No change, remains the same as U38/39 while most players have also figured out by now that NB is the undisputed king of PvP due to the buffs it received in U35 and is unmatched this patch (especially open world) until PTS for U41 drops that has massive buffs for Sorcerers so people jump on Sorc in preparation for the incoming buffs.

U41 - ZOS overbuffs the numbers on Hardened Ward, gives it a heal, increases mag scaling, makes Curse fully AoE (undodgable) and a few other buffs. Ward is clearly overperforming and carrying the class. So much so that "tournaments" ban ward specifically just like they ban cloak from NB (the only reason NB doesn't "perform" in these tournaments and also part of the reason I never take these tournaments seriously for balance arguments since they constantly neuter different aspects of all classes that always ends up with biased results, take the U40 tournament where other classes had half their skills banned while Sorc was basically left almost full strength because organizers didn't think it was strong, well of course it wins when its basically "full power" while only having to verse what are essentially half classes every time).

U42 - Scribing introduced, Sorc gets a burst heal (although unneeded due to ward still being overtuned), a spammable option with actually relevant secondary effects.

U43 - ZOS adjusts mag scaling slightly and reduces the heal on Ward and curse is made blockable. Sorc still top tier alongside NB, just no longer pushing ahead of NB. Otherwise no change.

U44/45 - NB and Sorc still the top tier classes in PvP, although 2h Health Wardens with charm start making an appearance alongside them as the warden build gets figured out.

U46 - Sub-classing introduced, everyone is immediately on Animal Companions + Assassination + either Restoring Light, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, or whatever the best line to keep is from their class. Sub-classing immediately takes over the meta.

Late U46 to U48 - Subclassing remains the meta, but now Warden becomes the must have base class specifically for scribed charm. Storm Calling still a popular line, but Sorcerer as a class only remains as the base class of choice for Sorc mains with everyone else jumping on Warden specifically for Charm.

U49 - DK refresh essentially turns DK into god-mode since there's no other refreshed class in the game. DK is unmatched in PvP.

U50 - Class masteries introduced alongside WW refresh, WW is on par with DK, and Sorcs masteries are enough to lift it into third, but the masteries also happen to synergize with WW pushing WW ahead of DK because of this interaction with the masteries that should have not been allowed in the first place.

Proposed changes for U51 - DK receiving the tiniest of nerfs that will make almost zero difference to the overall strength of the class (especially when accounting for the raw buffs as well as ease of use given to landslide), Sorc receiving some nerfs, but none of the nerfs actually directly target the reasons CoE was so strong (health costs and core combat), so problem builds will remain largely unchanged while other Sorc builds will fall off quickly resulting in seeming like more sorcs, but realistically it will just be more of the same problematic builds and less other builds, WW receives nerfs to it's sustain, it now shifts to third place overall with arguments to be made that DK wolf may come out ahead of any other wolf in PvP, rivaling sorc wolf.

Conclusion looking at 20 patches in the past: Mobility is clearly strong, but it is also clearly not enough on its own, especially when so much generic mobility has been given to every class over the years. There has been zero adjustments to streak across the past 20 patches, yet sorc has fluctuated from unplayable (when it only had mobility and nothing else) to top tier (due to other areas being given overtuned buffs) despite Streak remaining the same that entire time.

Root cause of the issue: Other players cannot understand or accept that Sorc NEEDS to have that mobility and that the other classes not designed around that mobility should NOT have access to mobility that is even remotely close to Sorc, otherwise something has to give.
Other players cried for years about Sorcs running away to reset the fight like they expect the Sorc to just stand there like a training dummy and just take their damage when the class was clearly not designed for that, so ZOS tried to placate these people by introducing far too many low investment speed/mobility options (on top of the gap closers and CCs that already existed that were effective against Sorc but people just refused to utilize) that were all generically available to every class without understanding why so much generic mobility on top of existing strong soft counter options has only caused balance issues across the entire game (including the desync issues that forced the melee range increase a few years ago).

If Sorc is to be the mobility class relying on escaping/distance to heal up and reset or to try and line up it's multi-GCD combos, it needs to be THE mobility class, not just a mobility class, THE mobility class. That means other classes need to learn to not complain about Sorcs running away because that is the intended design of the class while other classes are designed differently where all of them (with the exception of NB) rely on raw mitigation and healing instead of avoiding damage (NB is supposed to rely on stealth to avoid damage, not speed, as mobility is Sorcerers intended design but this is another topic and one that was made it's own issue in U35 when ZOS gave NB brawler abilities that made every actual brawler class jealous).

The current state of Sorcerer is literally a case of be careful what you (generic "you" not specific person) wish for. Non-sorcs in the past cried about sorcs running away/creating distance to defend itself or try to set up a combo, instead of just standing there like a training dummy, so ZOS caved in and gave everyone options to easily chase down Sorcerers, completely neutering what was supposed to make Sorcerer unique all because non-sorcs refused to even try the existing options. Well something had to give, either the generic speed/mobility options were heavily nerfed back to more balanced values or ZOS heavily restricted access to them (something non-sorcs would never accept) or Sorc had to be given tools to defend itself in close quarters since it could no longer reliably escape/create distance since every class had near capped (or capped) mobility.

Heavy armor/high mitigation/high healing knights should not be able to chase down highly mobile mages. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

Not reading this, Sorc is the undisputed #2 in PvP having a anime showdown with DK in the clouds while the rest of the classes are forced to watch while treading water and half drowning with ankle weights attached to us through the class mastery pvp restrictions like on nb. Come get your nerfs

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well, just to summarize some sorcerer PvP history:

U40 - sorcerer WINS 1v1 tournament on PC NA. It even win with templar at finals, despise the fact that 1v1 arena is most favourable environment for templar. Conclusion: sorcerer is definetely the strongest PvP class U40.

U40 - clear S tier

U41 - hardened ward buff, now also heals you. Also 10% stam + mag.

U41 - clear S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes.

U42 - scribing is introduced - sorcerer can now use sciribing spammable to become even more powerful. Other classes benefit as well, but sorc benefits the most.

U42 - S++ tier, 2 tiers above other classes

U43-45 - no change

U46 - sublclassing is introduced, hardened ward is nerfed - ZOS realizes that if they not neft ward, absolutely everyone will use it.

U46 - of course subclassing is stronger than sorc.

U47 - no change

U48 - There is 1v1 pure class tourmament on PC EU - sorcerers got places 2 and 3, beaten only by 1 templar in most favourable environment for templar, which is closed arena.

Conclussion: if subclassing gets disabled, sorc is strongest PvP class, which is absolutely expected considering U40 sorcerer didn't need buffed ward to be S-tier.

U49 - DK gets OMEGABUFF, wrongly called "rework" (infinite sustain, 8% more healing, 10% more dmg, 25% more dmg whip, minor heroism, 100% stronger dots, 10% more crit dmg, minor breach) - DK of course becomes strongest class. Sorcerer is second.

U50 - class masteries got introduced, sorcerer receives the strongest ones. Conservetion of energy not only gives them hardened ward heal 2.0, it gives them heal on every skill + infinite sustation

U50 - DK and sorc are S+++ tier, other classes are like 3 tiers below, almost nobody plays other classes.

U51 - DK getting nerfed, Sorc getting little nerfed.

U51 prediction - Sorc again the strongest class, dk close second. Other classes will be closer, sure, but still can't touch DK and sorc.

Conclusion looking 10 patches behind: even if you completely remove Conservation of energy, sorcerer can still use font of power and calculated defense and still be strongest PvP class. Even if he can't kill DK, he can always run away with streak.

Root cause of the problem:

Ppl cannot understand that sorc biggest strength is his mobility. Considering sorc is most mobile class, it SHOULD be the weakest class when caught. Then sorc players lose some 1v1, and they cry about sorc lacking burst heal, weak spammable, etc. - they don't understand that sorc relies on mobility, they want to win 1v1. That is why sorc is the most problematic class.

Mage is not supposed to beat knight in 1v1 melee fight. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

We can also look back even further:

U30 to U32 - Dark Convergence, Hrothgar's Chill and Plaguebreak are released around this time and are hard carrying every single class in the game. Didn't matter what class you were on, as long as you had those sets, you could perform well in PvP.

U33 - Resto staff is BiS back bar, and allows for every class to be competitive. Every class was performing in PvP during this patch.

U34 - Savage Werewolf proc-sorc becomes meta due to the build being made public and savage werewolf being insanely overtuned and having interactions that it never should have had (working at range, working with modifiers like overload, and tick stacking with large individual ticks). Oakensoul also released, that was a huge carry for every class (remember perma corrosive DK and unkillable 1 bar necro bombers running rampant in this meta? I remember these builds, they were extremely overpowered and basically just got a slap on the wrist compared to what Sorc gets next patch.)

U35 - ZOS guts everything about Sorcerer, from damage, to healing and more, so much so that ZOS had to panic buff 2 abilities (prey and armaments) directly and 2 more (pets) indirectly by 100% or MORE in the final week of that PTS just to have the class playable on a heavy attack build for PvE and this was during a period where big changes did not happen mid-PTS cycle. Sorcerer vanishes from PvP overnight.

U36 - No changes, Sorcerer is so dead that the kill Sorcerers quest in PvP is an instant-abandon.

U37 - No changes, still the same as U36.

U38 - ZOS gives Sorcerer some small and long overdue QoL improvements (pets mostly, but curse also made unblockable) and also allows Hardened Ward to scale off max health. Sorcerer gains 1 viable PvP build (40k+ health with draugrkin boosted Crushing Shock for damage). Not a top tier class and still weak to sustained pressure just now with a cushion against most burst, but at least it now has a build, so some Sorcerers return to PvP.

U39 - No change, remains the same as U38.

U40 - No change, remains the same as U38/39 while most players have also figured out by now that NB is the undisputed king of PvP due to the buffs it received in U35 and is unmatched this patch (especially open world) until PTS for U41 drops that has massive buffs for Sorcerers so people jump on Sorc in preparation for the incoming buffs.

U41 - ZOS overbuffs the numbers on Hardened Ward, gives it a heal, increases mag scaling, makes Curse fully AoE (undodgable) and a few other buffs. Ward is clearly overperforming and carrying the class. So much so that "tournaments" ban ward specifically just like they ban cloak from NB (the only reason NB doesn't "perform" in these tournaments and also part of the reason I never take these tournaments seriously for balance arguments since they constantly neuter different aspects of all classes that always ends up with biased results, take the U40 tournament where other classes had half their skills banned while Sorc was basically left almost full strength because organizers didn't think it was strong, well of course it wins when its basically "full power" while only having to verse what are essentially half classes every time).

U42 - Scribing introduced, Sorc gets a burst heal (although unneeded due to ward still being overtuned), a spammable option with actually relevant secondary effects.

U43 - ZOS adjusts mag scaling slightly and reduces the heal on Ward and curse is made blockable. Sorc still top tier alongside NB, just no longer pushing ahead of NB. Otherwise no change.

U44/45 - NB and Sorc still the top tier classes in PvP, although 2h Health Wardens with charm start making an appearance alongside them as the warden build gets figured out.

U46 - Sub-classing introduced, everyone is immediately on Animal Companions + Assassination + either Restoring Light, Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, or whatever the best line to keep is from their class. Sub-classing immediately takes over the meta.

Late U46 to U48 - Subclassing remains the meta, but now Warden becomes the must have base class specifically for scribed charm. Storm Calling still a popular line, but Sorcerer as a class only remains as the base class of choice for Sorc mains with everyone else jumping on Warden specifically for Charm.

U49 - DK refresh essentially turns DK into god-mode since there's no other refreshed class in the game. DK is unmatched in PvP.

U50 - Class masteries introduced alongside WW refresh, WW is on par with DK, and Sorcs masteries are enough to lift it into third, but the masteries also happen to synergize with WW pushing WW ahead of DK because of this interaction with the masteries that should have not been allowed in the first place.

Proposed changes for U51 - DK receiving the tiniest of nerfs that will make almost zero difference to the overall strength of the class (especially when accounting for the raw buffs as well as ease of use given to landslide), Sorc receiving some nerfs, but none of the nerfs actually directly target the reasons CoE was so strong (health costs and core combat), so problem builds will remain largely unchanged while other Sorc builds will fall off quickly resulting in seeming like more sorcs, but realistically it will just be more of the same problematic builds and less other builds, WW receives nerfs to it's sustain, it now shifts to third place overall with arguments to be made that DK wolf may come out ahead of any other wolf in PvP, rivaling sorc wolf.

Conclusion looking at 20 patches in the past: Mobility is clearly strong, but it is also clearly not enough on its own, especially when so much generic mobility has been given to every class over the years. There has been zero adjustments to streak across the past 20 patches, yet sorc has fluctuated from unplayable (when it only had mobility and nothing else) to top tier (due to other areas being given overtuned buffs) despite Streak remaining the same that entire time.

Root cause of the issue: Other players cannot understand or accept that Sorc NEEDS to have that mobility and that the other classes not designed around that mobility should NOT have access to mobility that is even remotely close to Sorc, otherwise something has to give.
Other players cried for years about Sorcs running away to reset the fight like they expect the Sorc to just stand there like a training dummy and just take their damage when the class was clearly not designed for that, so ZOS tried to placate these people by introducing far too many low investment speed/mobility options (on top of the gap closers and CCs that already existed that were effective against Sorc but people just refused to utilize) that were all generically available to every class without understanding why so much generic mobility on top of existing strong soft counter options has only caused balance issues across the entire game (including the desync issues that forced the melee range increase a few years ago).

If Sorc is to be the mobility class relying on escaping/distance to heal up and reset or to try and line up it's multi-GCD combos, it needs to be THE mobility class, not just a mobility class, THE mobility class. That means other classes need to learn to not complain about Sorcs running away because that is the intended design of the class while other classes are designed differently where all of them (with the exception of NB) rely on raw mitigation and healing instead of avoiding damage (NB is supposed to rely on stealth to avoid damage, not speed, as mobility is Sorcerers intended design but this is another topic and one that was made it's own issue in U35 when ZOS gave NB brawler abilities that made every actual brawler class jealous).

The current state of Sorcerer is literally a case of be careful what you (generic "you" not specific person) wish for. Non-sorcs in the past cried about sorcs running away/creating distance to defend itself or try to set up a combo, instead of just standing there like a training dummy, so ZOS caved in and gave everyone options to easily chase down Sorcerers, completely neutering what was supposed to make Sorcerer unique all because non-sorcs refused to even try the existing options. Well something had to give, either the generic speed/mobility options were heavily nerfed back to more balanced values or ZOS heavily restricted access to them (something non-sorcs would never accept) or Sorc had to be given tools to defend itself in close quarters since it could no longer reliably escape/create distance since every class had near capped (or capped) mobility.

Heavy armor/high mitigation/high healing knights should not be able to chase down highly mobile mages. Seriously is it so hard to understand?

Not reading this, Sorc is the undisputed #2 in PvP having a anime showdown with DK in the clouds while the rest of the classes are forced to watch while treading water and half drowning with ankle weights attached to us through the class mastery pvp restrictions like on nb. Come get your nerfs

So let me get this straight. You probably willingly read through Vinny's clearly biased breakdown of Sorc's recent 10 patches (U40-U50) because his stance aligns with yours, but ignore Turtle_Bot's counterargument (which pointed out the 10 patches before U40 where playing Sorc was mostly unfavorable), his agreement that Sorc was top tier for several patches between U40 and U50, and his analysis of the actual problem of the class?

I do not think that is a good way to display to forum lurkers that you are willing to engage in a good-faith argument lol.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

warsulxan wrote: »

buff others is better

Not when powercreep is so absurd as it currently is.

Power creep in PvP doesn’t matter if everyone is being brought up to the new standard. Not nearly as much as it matters for pve, because Zos doesn’t update their bosses often to match your new strength or new community standard

They did this like what once, twice for pve?

Power creep in pvp means pretty much nothing except that people will die more and we’ll have less immortal tanks- the only power creep that actually matters is that of ballgroups which is still being worked on

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I read it and what I drew from it personally given my experience with these updates and meta shifts is what I have always felt, if Sorc really does need the mobility to function as a class, which I don’t even agree on but I’ll do so for the sake of his argument, then it’s simply a badly designed class that just breaks up the flow of combat for everyone else.

Yes, IT IS a badly designed class. Stamsorc mostly relied on weapon skills to deal damage because its main spammable only works for ranged builds. Magsorc up until U41 had to build max mag for Ward and was extremely limited in build options. Both classes only gained a burst heal in U42 when Vibrant Shroud could proc Blood Magic heal. Both classes still have abilities that aren't updated (Curse not applying a debuff despite being a delayed burst ability, Bound Armaments being a watered down Merciless Resolve, Critical Surge proccing off crit damage despite the class lacking extra crit chance passive like NB, etc.)

Streak and movement speed were its saving grace, but movement speed eventually became widely accessible and stamsorc in particular lost that advantage too. I have seen templars and DKs sprint as fast as my Sorc, while having access to skills that make them the stand-your-ground archetype. Yet, Streak gets bashed because it's "OP" lol...

Sorc literally only got its OP healing in U50, and people are losing their minds already and calling for Streak nerfs. Yea, let's nerf Cleansing Ritual and DK healing too to make it fair.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Maybe the rework can change that but being the only class with such an insane mobility skill and also it being able to cc people is a mistake. He said Sorcs need streak for the mobility fine make it purely for mobility and offer other effects.

There is already an excellent mobility morph (Ball of Lightning), but people don't use it because of bar space issues. If you choose BoL, you need to source a stun elsewhere and give up something in return.

Some classes have tight bar space too, but their kit still allow for a stun without removing something. Warden got that from scribing. NB got that from Off Balance on their spammable, and Necro got that from their armor. Sorc gets nothing unless it slots Dizzying Swing, and we all know how bad this spammable is lol.

That is why Conservation of Energy is so crucial for Sorc and why I adamantly advocated for the sustain to be left alone. That class mastery passive allowed every sorc to drop Dark Deal,which frees up bar space for another skill. I can finally use BoL and have a stun now.