Rant time, what about Vampires?

XVestigeXx · August 27

I really think vampire needs huge buffs to their abilities and not just undeath. Currently there is no real benefit to running any of their abilities nor do they patch any holes in builds lacking x thing. Vampire should give strong power in exchange for strong weaknesses. As it stands its mostly weaknesses with no power. The only people who would play a vamp now are probably nightblades and even then its only for the strike from the shadows passive, and the stealth movement speed passive. Thats the only place where vamp gives anything beneficial. Undeath should probably be changes to frost and physical dmg mitigation along with a big buff. All the abilities need to be massively buffed or changed to be useful except maybe the spammable and the ult

Radiate77 · August 27

They NERFED Vampire this coming update with the Stealth changes!!!!!!

You can’t make this up!

DanteTheDeviant · August 27

Radiate77 wrote: »

With Dragonknight virtually unchanged next update, and no other reworks in sight, once again, I have to ask…

WHAT ABOUT VAMPIRES?

You’re nerfing Werewolf into the dirt, pushing all of the meta hoppers back onto Dragonknight, where is our relief? This is the worst stretch in ESO history for Vampires in PvP…

Join the club, Necromancers also suffering for 7 years now.... Released with jank class kit, got a few "buffs" in the form of getting access to the same basic buffs every other class had, but then we lost Harmony synergy, blastbones nerfs, our summons were bugged for over a year (still not sure they're fully working in PvP), and they keep buffing the one generic damage ultimate frozen colossus, likely because they're planning on trying to remove our iconic animate blastbones ultimate and possibly remove blastbones altogether, which after 7 years of necromancer main, I will become unhinged on the forums and quit the game.

Anyway, all we can do is hope Microsoft will start paying for employees, instead of cannibalizing their studios to make short-term profits/investing in the AI hype, so the game can get updates, eventually Vampire and Necromancer updates...

Adrastus · August 27

buff ww back up and vamps to apple tart levels of op

make dawnbreaker 1 shot all of them pls

C_Inside · August 27

Should probably specify in the title that you're talking about pvp exclusively.

Vampires are actually still pretty good in group pve. You just have to use your brain a little bit and actually consider all the skills and passives you get because not all of vampire's power is super obvious.

Arterial Burst combined with Signet is very strong and it provides a very good mag spammable for classes that don't otherwise have one.
Simmering Frenzy is stupid strong in organized groups if you combine it with Reaving Blows. You can't use it on every fight, but for the ones you can it gives far more damage than any non class DOT. You can also prebuff it to 5 stacks before the fight even starts.
Exhilarating Drain is a staple tank skill. A heal that scales with max health and free ult. Because who doesn't like barrier or war horn spam?
Blood Mist is one of the only DOTs you can prebuff while on your back bar. So for fights that heavily favor prebuffing, like the dragons in Sunspire, this skill is very good. Additionally, if you're a stage 2 vampire it also gives you a 300 wpn/spell damage buff for 6 seconds. I've also seen it used in score pushing to get from trash pack to trash pack quicker.
Strike from the Shadows is a crazy strong passive for damage. Currently DDs barely have any good potions to use. Essence of wpn/spell power are redundant because Major Brutality/Sorcery you get from Igneous Weapons and Major Prophecy/Savagery you get from class skills. Heroism potions may or may not also be redundant because you can get Minor Heroism from banner and depending on the fight Minor Heroism may not even be needed. So what potion are you going to use, exactly? Well, you can use invisibility potions to trigger Strike from the Shadows. Combine it with Blood Mist and you can get some decent uptimes on this passive. Potentially you can also go to stage 4 vampirism for Unnatural Movements for fights where you run around a lot.

Radiate77 · August 27

C_Inside wrote: »

Should probably specify in the title that you're talking about pvp exclusively.

Vampires are actually still pretty good in group pve. You just have to use your brain a little bit and actually consider all the skills and passives you get because not all of vampire's power is super obvious…

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay. I’m tired. Tired of my favorite spec being absolutely useless in this game outside of a few niché scenarios. I mean very niché.

I’m not talking about PvP specifically.

Scion is not used anywhere in PvE because it is horrible, it gives no group buffs for a tank or healer, Swarm does nowhere near the damage of Shooting Star, neither does it refund ultimate or give passives.

Arterial Burst is outclassed by any other spammable, as you’re topped off at 100% health by your healers at all times, if you’re running the other morph, you’re not getting healed at all and are sacrificing a skill slot just to stay alive, trading any damage benefit you would have received for a heal, it also actively kills you so…

Mesmerize is outclassed by Turn Evil, as it happens in a full AOE regardless of where enemies are looking, it also gives you FG passives.

Blood Mist does very little damage at all, and provides no valuable buffs to a damage dealer other than a passive proc, other DoTs provide better damage, and equal or greater buffs than that passive.

Simmering Frenzy is only viable in very specific encounters, and is dead in any content where you are forced to take even medium damage.

Exhilarating Drain is the only skill that has a place on any builds in the current PvE landscape across multiple encounters.

That’s what? 1 of 6 skills?

Some of us use our brain a lot, and still can’t wrap our head around the fact that an entire skill line with HEAVY roleplay implication in a roleplaying game lacks meaningful skill line synergy and is missing a unique defined playstyle altogether.

Also; thanks again for providing examples of the very niché scenarios where you would use these awful skills that on their own are entirely outclassed by the other 99% of options available to us!

Tommy_The_Gun · August 27

If it happens it will be most likely same as it was in WW: moved from meme spec to decent (OP on 2 builds), then moved again to meme spec on most builds but close to OP on one spec (Sorc ww).

With vamp, I am pretty sure it will be same thing.

C_Inside · August 27

"Radiate77 wrote:

I’m not talking about PvP specifically.

Scion is not used anywhere in PvE because it is horrible, it gives no group buffs for a tank or healer, Swarm does nowhere near the damage of Shooting Star, neither does it refund ultimate or give passives.

This is true.

"Radiate77 wrote:

Arterial Burst is outclassed by any other spammable, as you’re topped off at 100% health by your healers at all times, if you’re running the other morph, you’re not getting healed at all and are sacrificing a skill slot just to stay alive, trading any damage benefit you would have received for a heal, it also actively kills you so…

Arterial Burst's raw damage is good but its real value comes from its guaranteed bleed procs. Combine it with Signet and it becomes pretty strong. Getting an extra percent or two of damage from its health scaling is like a cherry on top. If you get a bit of extra damage from that then great, but you don't go out of your way to play around that mechanic. Although you can leverage the health scaling a bit more if you use Frenzy as well.

And no, it's not going to be quite as strong as some class spammables but that's OK. It shouldn't be your 1st choice of spammable anyway. Your default choice should always be what your class gives. If your class doesn't give you a spammable you like then that's where you start looking at generic skill lines like Vampire. And as it turns out, Arterial Burst is great in cases where you need a mag spammable but your class doesn't have a good one.

"Radiate77 wrote:

Mesmerize is outclassed by Turn Evil, as it happens in a full AOE regardless of where enemies are looking, it also gives you FG passives.

This is true.

"Radiate77 wrote:

Blood Mist does very little damage at all, and provides no valuable buffs to a damage dealer other than a passive proc, other DoTs provide better damage, and equal or greater buffs than that passive.

You don't use Blood Mist for its raw damage. You use it because it's an AOE DOT that can be prebuffed and that can be placed on your back bar. There are almost no other skills that fit that description. You can prebuff it before your tank pulls the boss and you literally get free damage from it. You can also use it on any fight with immunity phases. Cast it once before the immunity phase ends and you get free damage.

You don't use it as a normal DOT, though. Meaning you don't refresh it throughout the fight. You only use it for prebuffing before you pull and during immunity phases.

"Radiate77 wrote:

Simmering Frenzy is only viable in very specific encounters, and is dead in any content where you are forced to take even medium damage.

Frenzy can be used on any fight where you're not taking too much damage and where you don't stop damaging the boss (although you can always turn it off if you need to stop damaging the boss, but the point is to turn it on and not worry about micromanaging it). There are way more places where you can use it than you think, especially on Normal and regular Vet difficulties and especially on classes that have healling or damage shields on their spammables, like Templar or Arcanist. The damage it does even at max stacks is a lot lower than it might seem, especially when you use bistat food and with Minor Toughness going from your Warden support.

"Radiate77 wrote:

Exhilarating Drain is the only skill that has a place on any builds in the current PvE landscape across multiple encounters.

This is true.

"Radiate77 wrote:

That’s what? 1 of 6 skills?

3/6. 4/6 if we also count Arterial Burst.

"Radiate77 wrote:

Some of us use our brain a lot, and still can’t wrap our head around the fact that an entire skill line with HEAVY roleplay implication in a roleplaying game lacks meaningful skill line synergy and is missing a unique defined playstyle altogether.

It is true that the skill line doesn't really have a defined playstile. The skills are pretty generic in function outside of Frenzy I guess. How much roleplay there is in ESO is debatable though.

"Radiate77 wrote:

Also; thanks again for providing examples of the very niché scenarios where you would use these awful skills that on their own are entirely outclassed by the other 99% of options available to us!

That's the whole point of the Vampire skill line. It's a generic skill line designed to fill gaps that your main class skill lines can't account for. It's just like the weapon and guild skill lines in that regard. You become a vampire if you need a mag spammable, or if you don't have enough good class DOTs to fill all 10 skill slots and you want Frenzy. Or if you're a tank that wants Drain. Or if the fight you're doing can accommodate Blood Mist. Or if you don't have any good potions you can use and you want to leverage Strike from the Shadows. Or if you're a Nightblade and you can synergize its Shadowy Disguise with Strike from the Shadows.

Huh, I guess it's not that niche after all.

Renato90085 · August 27

pve only drain/mist/frenzy in few content/role good
and It's basically a support skill line..

Daoin · August 27

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay. I’m tired. Tired of my favorite spec being absolutely useless in this game outside of a few niché scenarios. I mean very niché.

On top of that; this has been the WORST patch in the history of ESO for Vampire. Everybody is playing a Dragonknight because they do a ridiculous amount of damage… FLAME DAMAGE.

What about Vampires?

Pour one out for us I guess; I can’t even convince my girlfriend to log into the game because her favorite activity, PvP, is completely unplayable for her.

You can’t outskill a roll catch leap from an unblockable fossilize, you can’t react to the Molten Whip slapping for more than 10k each hit, and if you try to build defensive; running mitigation, they’ll just pop Corrosive which now deals FLAME DAMAGE if you somehow miraculously survive the leap combo.

What are we supposed to do? Run 50k health?
Undeath was nerfed patches ago… great. It would have been really useful this patch.

It’s bad enough we have only 2 out of 6 skills with universal use; Eviscerate & Blood Scion. Everything else is just a worse version of something else! Why is the Fighter’s Guild rune just a better version of Mesmerize?

I’m tired of my favorite things in this game, Necromancy, Vampirism, and Conjuration being an abstract joke, and a second thought entirely.

How is it that nobody in the room when proposing Dragonknight first for rework, had asked what about Vampires?

and if they walk out into the sun the immediately combust

Morvan · August 27

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

Even on PvE Greymoor vampires were super strong for a very long time, it just wasn't something well known or accessible for most players.

Frenzy could scale your damage indefinitely and was arguably the strongest skill in the game, Mist would literally make you immortal and have DDs eating mechanics from vet trial bosses, it's no wonder they had to rework and nerf so much of the Vampire kit over time.

Greymoor Vamps were anything but weak.

shivalingax · August 27

Bro. DK's rampage affects more than just vampires

AdonisJorge · August 27

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay. I’m tired. Tired of my favorite spec being absolutely useless in this game outside of a few niché scenarios. I mean very niché.

On top of that; this has been the WORST patch in the history of ESO for Vampire. Everybody is playing a Dragonknight because they do a ridiculous amount of damage… FLAME DAMAGE.

What about Vampires?

Pour one out for us I guess; I can’t even convince my girlfriend to log into the game because her favorite activity, PvP, is completely unplayable for her.

You can’t outskill a roll catch leap from an unblockable fossilize, you can’t react to the Molten Whip slapping for more than 10k each hit, and if you try to build defensive; running mitigation, they’ll just pop Corrosive which now deals FLAME DAMAGE if you somehow miraculously survive the leap combo.

What are we supposed to do? Run 50k health?
Undeath was nerfed patches ago… great. It would have been really useful this patch.

It’s bad enough we have only 2 out of 6 skills with universal use; Eviscerate & Blood Scion. Everything else is just a worse version of something else! Why is the Fighter’s Guild rune just a better version of Mesmerize?

I’m tired of my favorite things in this game, Necromancy, Vampirism, and Conjuration being an abstract joke, and a second thought entirely.

How is it that nobody in the room when proposing Dragonknight first for rework, had asked what about Vampires?

I

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay. I’m tired. Tired of my favorite spec being absolutely useless in this game outside of a few niché scenarios. I mean very niché.

On top of that; this has been the WORST patch in the history of ESO for Vampire. Everybody is playing a Dragonknight because they do a ridiculous amount of damage… FLAME DAMAGE.

What about Vampires?

Pour one out for us I guess; I can’t even convince my girlfriend to log into the game because her favorite activity, PvP, is completely unplayable for her.

You can’t outskill a roll catch leap from an unblockable fossilize, you can’t react to the Molten Whip slapping for more than 10k each hit, and if you try to build defensive; running mitigation, they’ll just pop Corrosive which now deals FLAME DAMAGE if you somehow miraculously survive the leap combo.

What are we supposed to do? Run 50k health?
Undeath was nerfed patches ago… great. It would have been really useful this patch.

It’s bad enough we have only 2 out of 6 skills with universal use; Eviscerate & Blood Scion. Everything else is just a worse version of something else! Why is the Fighter’s Guild rune just a better version of Mesmerize?

I’m tired of my favorite things in this game, Necromancy, Vampirism, and Conjuration being an abstract joke, and a second thought entirely.

How is it that nobody in the room when proposing Dragonknight first for rework, had asked what about Vampires?

I think you’re right — vampires need some love. I played as a vampire on live servers, and honestly, the trade-off wasn’t worth it. The Blood Scion form is strong, but its duration feels too short. Blood for Blood is amazing on Sorcs with Curse of Erosion (COE), but beyond that, the passives are underwhelming. The invisibility while sprinting is nice, but Undeath doesn’t seem to mitigate damage properly, even when I’m using Torc of the Last Ayleid King, plus Major Protection and Minor Protection.

I even tried making a roleplay build with a Sorc, Vampire Lord set, and some random pieces. But even then, with Blood Scion costing 160 ultimate (if I remember correctly), it wasn’t very useful outside of normal content.

I don’t know how vampires were in the past or if they got hit by the big nerfs that some classes suffered over time, but right now they’re not great.

If I could change things, I’d start with the passives and then buff the underpowered active skills like Mist Form, Drain, and Frenzy. Small tweaks could make them more viable without breaking balance. More viable playstyles mean more fun for players, and ultimately more engagement with the game. When only two or three classes or playstyles dominate with a huge power gap, I just stick to my heavy attack build for PvE and call it a day.

Radiate77 · August 27

Morvan wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vampire has been op for a long, long time because of the undeath passive. They deserve to get a rework yea and I am sure they will, but one patch iteration of not being meta is honestly a breath of fresh air.

What are you talking about?
Vampire has never been meta.

You have an issue with old Undeath? Great.
Could have easily required a vamp skill slotted instead of being absolutely gutted by people who don’t actually want to play a Vampire.

Even on PvE Greymoor vampires were super strong for a very long time, it just wasn't something well known or accessible for most players.

Frenzy could scale your damage indefinitely and was arguably the strongest skill in the game, Mist would literally make you immortal and have DDs eating mechanics from vet trial bosses, it's no wonder they had to rework and nerf so much of the Vampire kit over time.

Greymoor Vamps were anything but weak.

You say “for a very long time” how many patches exactly? 2-3? Maybe? Out of 40+?

After Dawnbringer exploit, Frenzy was obliterated and only came back around during Blackwood, and specifically Toggle Plar when paired with Thrassian Stranglers.

Once again, very niché, and undefined, as you slotted Vampirism simply for a buff to everything else you were doing, not playing a Vampire.

All of this talk about identity, and the need for these reworks to help establish it, yet they started with one of the classes with the strongest identities of them all, and one that is a direct punishment to anyone using Vampirism.

Luneca · August 27

As long as ZOS leaves Streak and doesn't care about the interactions there, why do they care about how vampire might interact with other classes and build situations?

If you're going to leave the gate open, might as well leave it open for everyone and not just one class. Ridiculous level of balancing, or better stated the lack thereof.

Arunei · August 27

I was fully expecting them to reveal a Vamp rework next year, up until the layoffs happened. Who knows, maybe we'll still hear something about if they're planning one at least.

Radiate77 · August 27

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Im not saying you shouldn't get your vampire rework, my duo loved being a vampire and misses it. I'm just saying, one patch won't kill you.

This aged like fine wine.

Radiate77 · August 27

Arunei wrote: »

I was fully expecting them to reveal a Vamp rework next year, up until the layoffs happened. Who knows, maybe we'll still hear something about if they're planning one at least.

Would be nice to have some solid dates for our closest reworks…

Especially seeing how they are the #1 most requested thing by everyone… everywhere.

Radiate77 · August 28

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

With Dragonknight virtually unchanged next update, and no other reworks in sight, once again, I have to ask…

WHAT ABOUT VAMPIRES?

You’re nerfing Werewolf into the dirt, pushing all of the meta hoppers back onto Dragonknight, where is our relief? This is the worst stretch in ESO history for Vampires in PvP…

Join the club...

Also; before I forget. I am a part of that club!
My main Vampire is a Necromancer.

It is twice as bad!

Luneca · August 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Im not saying you shouldn't get your vampire rework, my duo loved being a vampire and misses it. I'm just saying, one patch won't kill you.

This aged like fine wine.

Most comments will

Radiate77 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

With Dragonknight virtually unchanged next update, and no other reworks in sight, once again, I have to ask…

WHAT ABOUT VAMPIRES?

You’re nerfing Werewolf into the dirt, pushing all of the meta hoppers back onto Dragonknight, where is our relief? This is the worst stretch in ESO history for Vampires in PvP…

Join the club...

Also; before I forget. I am a part of that club!
My main Vampire is a Necromancer.

It is twice as bad!

If you picked Redguard it could be thrice. Might as well go all the way!

TX12001rwb17_ESO · August 28

I know what could make Vampires viable, make it so you can use the instant kill feed in PvP on other players if you can sneak up behind them.

Grasshoppermouse · August 29

The thing I hate most is that the more you feed, the weaker you get. No, it's not 'giving up your humanity for power' when the skills that become cheaper are the most useless skills in the game. Also, like someone else in this thread pointed out, there's never been any lore where vampires can no longer use a sword because they drank some blood. Losing the ability to heal because they've fed is even more ridiculous. None of the bonuses for going up in stage are anywhere near the costs, and a vampire is completely crippled and unusable once they reach level 4.

The number one thing when designing a vampire skill line, the very most important thing, is that you want feeding to be better than not feeding. Vampires as they are right now, do not feel like vampires. They feel like someone who believes they are a vampire, but are making themselves horribly ill every time they feed on blood because it's just a delusion.

Personally, I think the best way to fix vampire is to force vampires to feed instead of forcing them to not feed. Flip the downsides. You get all of the downsides, none of the bonuses at stage one, and at stage 4 you'd get all of the bonuses, none of the downsides. Make it so vampires can be powerful, but only if they feed and keep feeding.

Goregram1 · August 29

i want old mist form back

Elvenheart · August 29

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If it happens it will be most likely same as it was in WW: moved from meme spec to decent (OP on 2 builds), then moved again to meme spec on most builds but close to OP on one spec (Sorc ww).

With vamp, I am pretty sure it will be same thing.

Hopefully the meme spec will be NB Vamp since all my NB are vamps. 🧛 🧛‍♀️

I do wish that the scion form would at least last until combat ends when you activate it.

Edited to add: As an aside, the new Dracula Universal has in Epic Universe can fly around in human form like Superman and shoot lightning bolts from his hands like Storm. I think that’s a bit over the top.

Arunei · August 29

They honestly really do need to remove the ramping cost of non-Vamp Skills. It doesn't make any sense for a Vampire to get worse at things the more well-fed they are, and they can heal from a lot of things the more well-fed they are. Hell feeding in itself heals them, so how is it somehow they heal less the stronger they are?

Radiate77 · August 29

Arunei wrote: »

They honestly really do need to remove the ramping cost of non-Vamp Skills. It doesn't make any sense for a Vampire to get worse at things the more well-fed they are, and they can heal from a lot of things the more well-fed they are. Hell feeding in itself heals them, so how is it somehow they heal less the stronger they are?

Right, and it wasn’t the case on launch, they actually flipped the feeding around “for convenience” at the cost of sense...

AdonisJorge · August 29

Luneca wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Im not saying you shouldn't get your vampire rework, my duo loved being a vampire and misses it. I'm just saying, one patch won't kill you.

This aged like fine wine.

Most comments will

Radiate77 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

With Dragonknight virtually unchanged next update, and no other reworks in sight, once again, I have to ask…

WHAT ABOUT VAMPIRES?

You’re nerfing Werewolf into the dirt, pushing all of the meta hoppers back onto Dragonknight, where is our relief? This is the worst stretch in ESO history for Vampires in PvP…

Join the club...

Also; before I forget. I am a part of that club!
My main Vampire is a Necromancer.

It is twice as bad!

If you picked Redguard it could be thrice. Might as well go all the way!

Redguard being a necromancer is absolute sacrilege

AdonisJorge · August 29

Arunei wrote: »

They honestly really do need to remove the ramping cost of non-Vamp Skills. It doesn't make any sense for a Vampire to get worse at things the more well-fed they are, and they can heal from a lot of things the more well-fed they are. Hell feeding in itself heals them, so how is it somehow they heal less the stronger they are?

Maybe they should have ability cost reduction? Something like 6% while keeping the fire vulnerability

Grasshoppermouse · August 29

Radiate77 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They honestly really do need to remove the ramping cost of non-Vamp Skills. It doesn't make any sense for a Vampire to get worse at things the more well-fed they are, and they can heal from a lot of things the more well-fed they are. Hell feeding in itself heals them, so how is it somehow they heal less the stronger they are?

Right, and it wasn’t the case on launch, they actually flipped the feeding around “for convenience” at the cost of sense...

It's even dumber, because lack of convenience here improves gameplay. Being incredibly weak without feeding, but becoming stronger by feeding, and needing to continue to feed in order to stay strong, makes more sense mechanically and is more fun. Imagine if they started you on the best armor in the game, and made you grind for weaker armor. Or if, by default, you got the buffs from the enchanted sugar skulls, and had to craft and eat food to get the weaker buffs. Sure, it's 'convenient' that you don't have to do anything to be in your strongest state, but it defeats the purpose of the game, just as being your strongest as a vampire at level one and feeding to become weaker defeats the purpose of playing a vampire.

FelisCatus · August 30

To a similar point bites should not take up a passive on werewolf or on vampire it should just be an innate passive that does not take a skill point. Also it's super redundant now when NPCs can bite you at the shrine.