Is this a joke?

Valkanos · August 26

YffresTrill wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

My man, the gripe you had here has been fixed. I am not sure what you are still arguing about.

What I’m talking about is the direction ESO has been taking. vCR -> Night Market -> solo dungeons. Where difficulty is created by restricting builds instead of punishing player mistakes.
(Are you worried about something here? No? Good).

I see what you mean about vCR, but part of the problem there is player gatekeeping, as it can technically be done with one-bar players in the group.
Regarding the Night Market, I do not recall how player builds were restricted there? People were bringing literally anything, joining a random group, and getting stuff done. And in the solo dungeons, once again, the issue has been fixed.

It’s not hard to agree instead of trying to dismiss the argument.

All you’re saying is: "The issue has been fixed". And that’s true.
What I’m saying is that we’re entering a completely new era in ESO, where we are restricting players builds instead of punishing player mistakes when it comes to completing achievements.
And, I don’t like this direction. If you like it, I’ll respect that. But if you don’t like this new direction either, then let’s push back against it and ask ZoS for changes.

Seems fair?

YffresTrill · August 26

Valkanos wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

My man, the gripe you had here has been fixed. I am not sure what you are still arguing about.

What I’m talking about is the direction ESO has been taking. vCR -> Night Market -> solo dungeons. Where difficulty is created by restricting builds instead of punishing player mistakes.
(Are you worried about something here? No? Good).

I see what you mean about vCR, but part of the problem there is player gatekeeping, as it can technically be done with one-bar players in the group.
Regarding the Night Market, I do not recall how player builds were restricted there? People were bringing literally anything, joining a random group, and getting stuff done. And in the solo dungeons, once again, the issue has been fixed.

It’s not hard to agree instead of trying to dismiss the argument.

All you’re saying is: "The issue has been fixed". And that’s true.
What I’m saying is that we’re entering a completely new era in ESO, where we are restricting players builds instead of punishing player mistakes when it comes to completing achievements.
And, I don’t like this direction. If you like it, I’ll respect that. But if you don’t like this new direction either, then let’s push back against it and ask ZoS for changes.

Seems fair?

I am sorry, but I do not agree that we are entering such an era. I do not see the evidence for it. But I will agree to disagree.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 26

Valkanos wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

You both have the title. You completed the challenge based on the requirements set. All the title means is that you completed the challenge. It says nothing about ability level beyond that, nor is it trying to, nor does it need to. The title has a list of requirements and you both completed the list of requirements to get the title.

This challenge has (well, HAD now) the requirement of not using a Heavy Attack build (among other things). That's really all there is to it. Not sure why it was such a humongous deal when plenty of games have hyper specific challenges that task you with beating a run in a different way or blocking the use of specific strategies.

You don't see people complaining about not being able to use Covenant weapons when playing Halo with all skulls on. If they want to use Covenant weapons, they don't play with the skull that turns off Covenant weapons. You don't see people complaining that they can't get the "No powers run" achievement in Dishonored if they use powers. If they want to use powers, they don't go for that achievement.

If anything, I'd want them to add more achievements to Solo Dungeons with hyper specific requirements like

- Not using Heavy Attacks at all
- Not bar swapping at all
- Not using an ultimate ability at all
- Not wearing a gear set

I get you...
As long as you can maintain the illusion that you're on the same level as the real top endgame players, that's enough to distinguish the casual 2bar players from everyone using a 1bar build. I see...
You don't want a challenge that actually proves who's good and who isn't. You just want a challenge that you can handle, so you can put yourself on the same level as top-end players. Not because you're actually good or better than others... but because you have 2 bars!

Only heroes around here... But if we try to create real challenges that actually prove who is good and who isn't... well, "I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make", right?

What? I still don't understand what you're even saying or accusing me of.

I don't care about how I view myself compared to endgame PvErs. I'm not an Endgame PvE player.

I like achievements. Fun, difficult achievements with unique things. I used to hunt achievements on Xbox like crazy. I remember reloading checkpoints for hours trying to get the "If They Came To Hear Me Beg" achievement in Halo Reach, or the Non-lethal Ghost achievement in Dishonored.

An achievement doesn't imply anything other than the fact that you got the achievement. I did Fang Lair Hardmode solo for the achievement, just to see if I could. I did it on a heavy attack build. I don't think that achievement means I'm good at the game, or that I'm some pro player or endgame PvE player, it just means that I got the achievement. I did it to see if I could.

I'm not maintaining some illusion. I don't care how other players perceive me. I want fun challenges to work towards with a little notification that I completed the challenge. That's it.

Challenges with restrictions like "don't use a heavy attack build" aren't discriminatory, they're just something to work towards for personal satisfaction. That's it. The little "Achievement Gained" notification is a dopamine hit. Stop trying to force this weird "us vs them" mentality on something that really isn't that serious. The "0 Heavy Attack damage" modifier was only ever meant to have players try out a different build and push people out of their comfort zone, and to provide replayability.

frogthroat · August 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

And what is the problem with also providing people with some optional challenges?

Why is it that that every piece of content released now, even stuff originally intended for the solo/casual crowd, has to have stuff tacked on for the build-focused/non-casual crowd? We had the Night Market for 3 months. When some players complained (I didn't), they were told, "Hey, stuff's coming down the pipe just for you. Including solo dungeons!" But it turns out nope, they're not just for the soloists/casual crowd.

Anyway, it is what it is.

So your complaint is not what solo/casuals are getting, but that solo/sweaty players (like me) are also getting something? How much better would your 0 misfortune solo Moonhunter Keep experience be with the knowledge that I don't get anything from it? Does the exclusion of me from solo content make your run better?

I don't particularly enjoy solo arenas or IA, little alone the bullet sponge method of overland difficulty, so I solo DLC dungeons. Since those two dungeons are already soloable I had very little faith that the solo versions are anything interesting. Especially because the misfortunes seem to be the same ol same ol debuffs. But I have to say when I quickly tried MoS with 3 misfortunes, I was happily surprised. The mechanics were important. Cool. I might actually play the solo versions, whether you approve of me playing it or not.

The last time I enjoyed solo content was indeed Night Market. I don't remember the last time I have tried so many different solo builds in such a short time.

And don't worry. While I am waiting for our trial to start I quickly checked how MoS is with 0 misfortunes. You can run through it. The most time consuming parts were Tarcyr's hunt and Balorgh's hunt phases. You'll do fine with a lightning staff and mixed gear there. If you survive overland, you'll survive MoS solo 0 misfortunes with no death.

SilverBride · August 26

What bothers me is these solo dungeons were supposed to be there for players to go at their own pace without having to follow a group, so they could take their time and enjoy the story. Now they added all these challenge modes.

If they are going to do that then they need to add solo modes to all the dungeons for the casual and role playing players, too. One play style shouldn't get everything adapted to them while the other play style is lacking.

Arunei · August 26

@frogthroat
The Solo Dungeons do have repeatable quests iirc, and the thing where you select the MFs specifically states 0 MFs are for the story, so that's the intended story mode. I'll see if I can find a screenshot.

@SilverBride
But they're optional, you don't HAVE to pick any MFs. If you only want the story then the 0 MF difficulty is the easiest. The fact that there are harder versions doesn't detract from the fact that there is a setting to allow for people who want to take their time, explore, and do the quest at their leisure.

ETA Here's the screenshot I posted somewhere else iirc, it's not the best quality but it works lol:

Arunei · August 26

edited because sometimes I have the smooth brain lol

frogthroat · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

@frogthroat
The Solo Dungeons do have repeatable quests iirc, and the thing where you select the MFs specifically states 0 MFs are for the story, so that's the intended story mode. I'll see if I can find a screenshot.

Yeah, the 0MF test I did a few minutes ago was ridiculously easy. The bosses were easier than base game world bosses. Clearly for story only.

I did do the story, so I'll see if I can repeat it after the trial. (Starts in 15 minutes so I won't have time now. Grouping is about to start.)

SilverBride · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

@SilverBride
But they're optional, you don't HAVE to pick any MFs. If you only want the story then the 0 MF difficulty is the easiest. The fact that there are harder versions doesn't detract from the fact that there is a setting to allow for people who want to take their time, explore, and do the quest at their leisure.

That is not the point I am making. If they are going to add difficulty options to what was supposed to be solo mode dungeons then add solo mode options to all the other dungeons. Don't just adapt every dungeon to one play style.

Valkanos · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Okay so were back to ZoS listening to that handful of players who have a those who deserve to see content and those who don't mindset.....this is why so many people are predicting a bleak future for ESO... I mean heck even WoW and FFXIV has solo dungeons where you don't have to jump through hoops.....Zos has to do more to win me back

So...you're mad the MF actually is a challenge to everyone and impacts everyone now? You're mad that it's not a free MF that only adversely affects specific playsyles now? Also nice implication that if someone doesn't agree with you they somehow "don't deserve" content.

He replied to that before ZoS included all builds in solo dungeons. His point was that, at the time, ZoS was excluding some builds and sets from their own game. So, let's not change the context of what he said.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 26

SilverBride wrote: »

What bothers me is these solo dungeons were supposed to be there for players to go at their own pace without having to follow a group, so they could take their time and enjoy the story. Now they added all these challenge modes.

If they are going to do that then they need to add solo modes to all the dungeons for the casual and role playing players, too. One play style shouldn't get everything adapted to them while the other play style is lacking.

What? How does adding an optional challenge mode to the Solo Dungeon system mean that casual players can't play at their own pace?

And they are trying to add solo versions of all the dungeons, eventually. It takes time to change mechanics, but they stated that their intention is to do this for most if not all of the dungeons.

And do you really believe that solo players are being neglected or are lacking in content? The VAST majority of the game's content is geared towards solo players. There are 56 group dungeon quests total across the entire game. That includes the 1 and 2 variants of each base game dungeon. There are 60 quests in Stormhaven ALONE.

Arunei · August 26

SilverBride wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

@SilverBride
But they're optional, you don't HAVE to pick any MFs. If you only want the story then the 0 MF difficulty is the easiest. The fact that there are harder versions doesn't detract from the fact that there is a setting to allow for people who want to take their time, explore, and do the quest at their leisure.

That is not the point I am making. If they are going to add difficulty options to what was supposed to be solo mode dungeons then add solo mode options to all the other dungeons. Don't just adapt every dungeon to one play style.

But...they intend to. The Wolfhunter Dungeons are just the ones they started with. It is LITERALLY why they developed the system. It wasn't just to give it to two Dungeons and then call it a day. And I'm not sure they ever stated Solo Dungeons were ever meant to only be for story. That might have been a player expectation because people were equating solo with story, but I don't recall the devs ever saying they intended to make Solo Dungeons ONLY be for the story.

Valkanos wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Okay so were back to ZoS listening to that handful of players who have a those who deserve to see content and those who don't mindset.....this is why so many people are predicting a bleak future for ESO... I mean heck even WoW and FFXIV has solo dungeons where you don't have to jump through hoops.....Zos has to do more to win me back

So...you're mad the MF actually is a challenge to everyone and impacts everyone now? You're mad that it's not a free MF that only adversely affects specific playsyles now? Also nice implication that if someone doesn't agree with you they somehow "don't deserve" content.

He replied to that before ZoS included all builds in solo dungeons. His point was that, at the time, ZoS was excluding some builds and sets from their own game. So, let's not change the context of what he said.

Aaaah that's my bad, I thought it was a comment made after the change as I wasn't play attention to what page I was on (I had gone back to check something, saw the comment, and my brain for whatever reason thought I was on more recent pages). I'll edit that post.

frogthroat · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

The Solo Dungeons do have repeatable quests iirc,

You recall correctly. I just checked it. I can take the quest again.

SilverBride wrote: »

If they are going to add difficulty options to what was supposed to be solo mode dungeons then add solo mode options to all the other dungeons.

They are solo mode dungeons. They have difficulty options. They are adding more solo modes to other dungeons. That is precisely the plan.

And I just today tested it with 0 optional debuffs (misfortunes) that you are in no way, shape or form obligated to take. Even the ice atro wb in The Rift is more difficult to solo than Balorgh. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing the solo dungeons with no proper build.

In fact, I just tested 0 MF again with an extremely basic build. NB, no class mastery, no arena weapons, no mythics, no scribing, 3.7k weapon damage (unbuffed), badly selected skills (no major brutality, 2 execute skills, for example). Crafted sets - Order+Hunding+2pc Druid. Purple weapons, blue jewelry. No buff food, no potions. Playing sloppy, not paying attention to LA-weaving. I ran through the whole thing.

With no misfortunes, it is a story mode. You can't not finish it.

AzuraFan · August 26

frogthroat wrote: »

So your complaint is not what solo/casuals are getting, but that solo/sweaty players (like me) are also getting something?

My complaint is that a feature that was initially positioned as a way for players to go through a dungeon and enjoy the story (as many, many threads had requested) turned into something else. I wouldn't have a problem with challenge modes if there were no extra rewards or cosmetics for doing them. But what seems to be happening now is that features are released that reserve a lot of the rewards for sweaties. If you're not sweaty, sure, you can participate and maybe get 25-30% of the rewards and achievements. You miss out on everything else.

While I understand that of course there should be cosmetics and rewards for those who participate in the more difficult content, there's already plenty of that in the game. I guess I expected that this feature would not lock casual solo players out of any rewards, because of the way it was initially presented. IOW, as a casual non-sweaty player, I would be able to earn all achievements and rewards available from doing solo dungeons, because the solo dungeons were meant for us. Those of us who can't solo every dungeon, and certainly can't solo vet dungeons. Instead, it feels as if they were designed for non-casuals, with story mode tacked on.

You can think I'm silly for feeling this way. But ESO is an MMO, and earning rewards is part of what keeps people playing. If I, as a solo casual player who is not sweaty, feel that I'm being consistently locked out of rewards, I won't stick around.

Lately I feel that ZOS doesn't really care about players who play ESO primarily for story, exploration, and to have fun (i.e. we're not build-focused). We were told that favours would be repeatable quests with stories. We got what felt to me like AI-generated quests that took minutes to do. The TG was good, the Sheo questline not as much (and the rewards were bad). The Nowhere Vault requires grinding for keys. I still only have the six from favours despite playing daily, so who knows how much I'll be able to participate in that. Now solo dungeons, a feature I was looking forward to and I thought would be geared towards casuals, turns out to be something else.

I don't care if you think I shouldn't be disappointed or don't have a valid complaint. I am, and I do.

I'm also a bit disappointed with myself. I've said before on the forums that the trend in the game seems to be away from story/exploration/fun and more towards challenge/grind/sweatiness. So I'm kicking myself for feeling hopeful about the solo dungeons. I should have known better.

Anyway, enough said.

SilverBride · August 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

My complaint is that a feature that was initially positioned as a way for players to go through a dungeon and enjoy the story (as many, many threads had requested) turned into something else.

This is exactly how I feel about it, too.

frogthroat · August 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

My complaint is that a feature that was initially positioned as a way for players to go through a dungeon and enjoy the story (as many, many threads had requested) turned into something else. I wouldn't have a problem with challenge modes if there were no extra rewards or cosmetics for doing them. But what seems to be happening now is that features are released that reserve a lot of the rewards for sweaties. If you're not sweaty, sure, you can participate and maybe get 25-30% of the rewards and achievements. You miss out on everything else.

Originally the understanding was that there's going to be solo dungeons and story mode separately. When they mentioned it in the streams it wasn't too clear.

With the layoffs I feared they're going to drop the solo modes, and only nerf all the enemies for a story mode. I am glad I also get something. My playstyle is a bit different and there isn't any content designed for my favourite playstyle. Soloing at Night Market had been the closest of what felt like it was designed exactly for me. I don't like the solo content in ESO, but I like challenging solo runs so I solo DLC dungeons. That's why I am glad they combined solo mode and story mode instead of dropping solo mode difficulty levels.

And you can get nice rewards even in story mode. I didn't read it that thoroughly but I think it was something like, story difficulty has a small chance to drop everything, except the bust of course. 1mf has increased chance. 2mf and 3mf has guaranteed drop for mask and bust and 3mf has the highest chance for style pages.

You can get nice stuff on story mode. Might have to do it a few times, but it's possible. Except, of course, the rewards you usually get only in veteran dungeons you should do on higher difficulties.

And I got the Warmask mythic lead on story mode, first try.

Arunei · August 26

I'm hardly a "sweat" but I was able to get through Solo MoS with 2 MFs (Warm Welcome and Weary Submission) with only two deaths, and those were both because I wasn't really paying attention.

Again, I do not think the devs EVER said that the Solo Dungeon would be story-mode only. If I'm wrong then by all means, someone correct me. But people assuming that Solo Dungeon = story mode without there being official dev word that was the case were, well, just making assumptions.

Now I'd say they didn't have to make it AS hard as it is, especially if you pick all three MFs with how Pulled Punches works now. At the same time, the only other thing we have for people playing solo who want more challenge in the game is Difficulty Challenge for Overland. I don't think we should begrudge optional difficulty settings for others.

I might say that they should have made even 0MF runs have a small chance of dropping all rewards, but at the same time...I don't think anyone actually expected story mode to really give rewards anyway, since the whole point of it was to be able to just experience the Dungeon and quest without being rushed by others.

That being said, the fact that 1MF makes the Dungeons about the same difficulty as the Normal Mode of the group versions and that you can get pretty much all the possible rewards from just 1MF means I don't find it too egregious for there to BE rewards. The only thing taking two or all three MFs does is increase the chances of getting stuff.

AzuraFan · August 26

frogthroat wrote: »

Originally the understanding was that there's going to be solo dungeons and story mode separately. When they mentioned it in the streams it wasn't too clear.

I never had that impression. My impression way back, when they first said they were doing them, was that they were doing it in response to all the requests for CASUAL solo dungeons, so that people could go through on their own on what we'd now call adventurer mode, and explore to their heart's content. It was meant for casuals, because obviously those who could solo normal dungeons didn't need it. They could already go through on their own and take their time. I only heard about challenge modes when they were demonstrated on a stream, the first time we saw what they had actually done.

With the layoffs I feared they're going to drop the solo modes, and only nerf all the enemies for a story mode.

I wouldn't worry about that. If you look at who got laid off, it's writers, artists, animators. Very few (if any) involved in combat. It's the story/exploration/fun crowd that will be getting less content.

And you can get nice rewards even in story mode. I didn't read it that thoroughly but I think it was something like, story difficulty has a small chance to drop everything, except the bust of course. 1mf has increased chance. 2mf and 3mf has guaranteed drop for mask and bust and 3mf has the highest chance for style pages.

But I can't get all the achievements, and I'll have to grind more for those rewards if I want them (you might have gotten a lead on the first try, but we all know RNG can be horrible).

Like I said, I'm disappointed that a feature that was meant for casuals who couldn't solo existing dungeons has turned out to be something for non-casuals (I'd consider it almost another arena), with a story mode tacked on. All the meaty stuff seems to be geared toward that part of the playerbase. If that's the direction ZOS wants to take, their call. But they won't be retaining me if that's the choice they've made. I'm one player; they won't care. Except I won't be the only one, I'm sure.

spartaxoxo · August 26

The devs never marketed solo dungeons as only for the story. Players suggested that and solo dungeons are the devs response to our suggestions. Devs of any game often don't take player suggestions and give them exactly that but use their game development experience to take the idea and improve on it.

In this case, they clearly wanted the story mode for dungeons idea to be more than just a one and done experience. They wanted it to be real content. So they gave us something that makes it a different experience and used the design philosophy that's been so successful in their group dungeons.

AzuraFan · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

That being said, the fact that 1MF makes the Dungeons about the same difficulty as the Normal Mode of the group versions and that you can get pretty much all the possible rewards from just 1MF means I don't find it too egregious for there to BE rewards. The only thing taking two or all three MFs does is increase the chances of getting stuff.

If you mean that people who can solo the normal group dungeons should be able to do 1MF, that's great. I can't solo the normal dungeons. That's why I was looking forward to the solo dungeons. And yeah, some of us made the assumption that the solo dungeons would be adventurer mode only because we assumed they were being done in response to all the requests from people who couldn't solo the normal dungeons. Those who can solo normal dungeons don't need a solo dungeon to go through at their own pace.

I might say that they should have made even 0MF runs have a small chance of dropping all rewards, but at the same time...I don't think anyone actually expected story mode to really give rewards anyway, since the whole point of it was to be able to just experience the Dungeon and quest without being rushed by others.

And the whole point of challenge modes is to experience an increased challenge, so why do they have rewards? There's this double standard (that ZOS has too) that anyone who wants a casual experience should be grateful for the opportunity and not expect any rewards beyond that, but anyone who wants a challenging experience should be showered with rewards. Fortunately not all games (and players) have that attitude, but it seems to reign here.

tomofhyrule · August 26

Some people are going way overboard on this.

This was never described as "We're making solo dungeons only for the people who can't/won't group up. Anyone else can go get bent!"
If that's what you read from it, you seriously need to log off and go touch grass.

Think about this logically - if ZOS is spending time to make content, their goal is not for it to be a one-and-done experience. They want people to play things multiple times and practice. They want you to try for rewards and achievements.

It is 100% possible for casuals to now do the stories. Playing with 0 Misfortunes (which is the default setting!) is equivalent to playing overland. Basically, if you're able to do the ESO story quests, you can now also do these dungeons.

As for the rewards, it will now also be possible for you to get most of the rewards from the group dungeon (the dungeon set items, but a different Monster helm) as well. You no longer will need to do the group dungeon to get the boss's leads or fragments or sets like Savage Werewolf.

So... they're making rewards from the group version available to solos, and adding new rewards exclusively for the solo version, but making it so doing them on harder difficulty increases the drop rates. Where on earth does it say "we're not rewarding casuals at all!"

And as for "ZOS should make it so someone as casual as me can get all of the respective achievements and rewards!" Well... they just did that for some of the other things they released this year. Or are you implying that there are achievements from the Thieves Guild quests, the Sheogorath quests, or the Favors that you can't get? To say nothing of the rewards and achievements for Rumors and the Nowhere Vault that are upcoming.
In fact, out of all of the content released and releasing in 2026, the only achievements that require 'sweaty' challenge are the Night Market, Challenge Difficulty, Veterancy, and the Solo Dungeons, and not even every part of those. Everything else in 2026 is completely completable by everyone.

As many people pointed out when people whined back in April about the Night Market: why is the expectation that everything must be completable by never-groupers a thing? In years past, we had some things for sweats and some things for casuals. But now, it seems that people are raging that any small piece of content is targeted towards higher-level players. I get we didn't get a new zone, but... we didn't get new 4-man dungeons either. We didn't get a new full trial either (it's delayed until next year). We didn't get new Combat features either (the refreshes are delayed until next year and all other combat features are on hold until that's done). We didn't get new PvP content either (Veterancy is just a new reward system, and they actively removed incentives from Whitestrake's Mayhem).

spartaxoxo · August 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

And the whole point of challenge modes is to experience an increased challenge, so why do they have rewards? There's this double standard (that ZOS has too) that anyone who wants a casual experience should be grateful for the opportunity and not expect any rewards beyond that, but anyone who wants a challenging experience should be showered with rewards. Fortunately not all games (and players) have that attitude, but it seems to reign here.

There's no double standard. They give rewards for all activities and difficulty levels. It's not that solo casual players don't get rewards that seems to be the issue. But rather that they don't get every reward that the game has to offer. Everytime a vet player is given a reward for a challenge, it is treated as taking away a reward from someone else.

What actually seems to be desired here is for vet activities to not be rewarded at all. Even something has plentiful and easily sourced as exp caused constant complaints. People were legitimately upset that a player like me wouldn't have the exp that I earned drastically reduced when they launched the challenge slider. Even though they had plentiful sources of exp and exp is not a shared a resource.
.
The complaints about solo dungeon rewards seem like more of the same. The majority of the rewards afaik are available for solo casuals because they are available with or without using misfortunes. The entire system was pushed for by the community so they could hear the quests. But that doesn't seem to be enough.

SilverBride · August 26

This was being presented and discussed as solo story mode dungeons. NOTHING was said about challenge modes with better rewards until now. I find that disturbing. Why the sudden change?

Arunei · August 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

That being said, the fact that 1MF makes the Dungeons about the same difficulty as the Normal Mode of the group versions and that you can get pretty much all the possible rewards from just 1MF means I don't find it too egregious for there to BE rewards. The only thing taking two or all three MFs does is increase the chances of getting stuff.

If you mean that people who can solo the normal group dungeons should be able to do 1MF, that's great. I can't solo the normal dungeons. That's why I was looking forward to the solo dungeons. And yeah, some of us made the assumption that the solo dungeons would be adventurer mode only because we assumed they were being done in response to all the requests from people who couldn't solo the normal dungeons. Those who can solo normal dungeons don't need a solo dungeon to go through at their own pace.

I might say that they should have made even 0MF runs have a small chance of dropping all rewards, but at the same time...I don't think anyone actually expected story mode to really give rewards anyway, since the whole point of it was to be able to just experience the Dungeon and quest without being rushed by others.

And the whole point of challenge modes is to experience an increased challenge, so why do they have rewards? There's this double standard (that ZOS has too) that anyone who wants a casual experience should be grateful for the opportunity and not expect any rewards beyond that, but anyone who wants a challenging experience should be showered with rewards. Fortunately not all games (and players) have that attitude, but it seems to reign here.

Okay, but you CAN solo the story mode. You HAVE the ability to do what you want. You are not prevented from going through the Dungeon at your own pace now. You can still look forward to them. If you weren't going to get many, if any, rewards from a story mode regardless, why is there a problem with there being rewards for harder difficulties? The Solo Dungeons were NEVER marketed as story only; assumptions can, unfortunately, be wrong. And in this case they were. Solo Dungeons are NOT meant to be only for the story. They are meant to be for the story but ALSO for people who want to experience the Dungeons on harder settings.

One might argue "but if they can do a 1MF+ run, why do they not just go through the Group version?" Because the Group version doesn't have the unique debuffs the Solo ones do. The Solo versions have their own mechanics related to those MFs. It's a different experience from the Group version.

As for rewards, I'm not always an advocate for harder means getting more out of it. Challenge Difficulty, for example, is something I don't think should get unique rewards for doing things on something like Master or Vestige beyond what we have already. That's because CD specifically was asked for because there were a lot of people who felt the game was too easy and they weren't engaged by it, but there was no Veteran or HM setting for Overland like we have for Dungeons and Trials. People didn't want to be able to make it harder to get more rewards, being engaged itself IS the reward.

Solo Dungeons aren't like that though. The devs decided not to make them story only, but to have more difficulties, but to use them to make more solo content that's challenging AND offers rewards. You may not be able to clear them with 1MF, but the existence of them doesn't prevent you from being able to do the story mode. And unfortunately, us wanting something doesn't really mean much. You might not be able to get the achieves for doing any of the MFs; I will never get the harder Trifectas, I probably won't ever get the Beast Personality that I really want. Vet No-Death is pretty much impossible for me, with as overwhelmed as I get.

spartaxoxo · August 26

SilverBride wrote: »

This was being presented and discussed as solo story mode dungeons. NOTHING was said about challenge modes with better rewards until now. I find that disturbing. Why the sudden change?

This was not presented as such by the devs. They mentioned the challenge difficulties in the preview live stream. Players asked for a solo story mode but that's not what the devs presented it as when it finally got added to the game.

You can see the notes from the when they first showed us it here

https://eso-hub.com/en/solo-dungeons

ESO_player123 · August 26

I've never expected them to include the sets from the group dungeons to be included as rewards for a story mode.

From what I remember reading on the forums, people wanted to experience the whole story at their own pace. That included the players that are unable to solo dungeons or those who can but would like to experience the story on a toon where they were forced to rush through the quest with a group. So, questing experience was supposed to be the reward.

Now, it seems we have what was asked: repeatable quests with overland difficulty mobs/bosses if run we with 0 misfortunes (I'm not on PTS, so only repeating what others have been saying). By including the sets (which are rewards for getting into a group and playing together), they went beyond my expectations. So, I do not see many reasons to complain.

spartaxoxo · August 26

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I've never expected them to include the sets from the group dungeons to be included as rewards for a story mode.

From what I remember reading on the forums, people wanted to experience the whole story at their own pace. That included the players that are unable to solo dungeons or those who can but would like to experience the story on a toon where they were forced to rush through the quest with a group. So, questing experience was supposed to be the reward.

Now, it seems we have what was asked: repeatable quests with overland difficulty mobs/bosses if run we with 0 misfortunes (I'm not on PTS, so only repeating what others have been saying). By including the sets (which are rewards for getting into a group and playing together), they went beyond my expectations. So, I do not see many reasons to complain.

I can't play on pts but from what I can tell you get crests for running without misfortunes as well. They even added the group set drops as rewards to it. So they actually made a group reward accessible to solo players.

SilverBride · August 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This was being presented and discussed as solo story mode dungeons. NOTHING was said about challenge modes with better rewards until now. I find that disturbing. Why the sudden change?

This was not presented as such by the devs. They mentioned the challenge difficulties in the preview live stream. Players asked for a solo story mode but that's not what the devs presented it as when it finally got added to the game.

You can see the notes from the when they first showed us it here

https://eso-hub.com/en/solo-dungeons

That is not when this was first discussed or presented to the players. For years story mode dungeons had been requested and discussion was ongoing in several threads. Not once do I ever remember them saying it would include difficulty modes. That never came up until later after overland difficulty modes were introduced.

Things like this are not conducive to building a cohesive community. It just causes tension and bad feelings.

spartaxoxo · August 26

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This was being presented and discussed as solo story mode dungeons. NOTHING was said about challenge modes with better rewards until now. I find that disturbing. Why the sudden change?

This was not presented as such by the devs. They mentioned the challenge difficulties in the preview live stream. Players asked for a solo story mode but that's not what the devs presented it as when it finally got added to the game.

You can see the notes from the when they first showed us it here

https://eso-hub.com/en/solo-dungeons

That is not when this was first discussed or presented to the players. For years story mode dungeons had been requested and discussion was ongoing in several threads. Not once do I ever remember them saying it would include difficulty modes. That never came up until later after overland difficulty modes were introduced.

Things like this are not conducive to building a cohesive community. It just causes tension and bad feelings.

The players aren't developers and the devs don't have to implement things the way we ask them too.

Players only asked for a story mode. But the developers decided to do more than that and advertised they had done more from than that the second they announced it.

Solo casual players are actually getting more stuff than they requested. Like people specifically said they didn't mind forgoing group sets to get a story mode but this version includes the group sets. So for the first time solo casual players will not need to find a group to get a dungeon set.

tomofhyrule · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

And unfortunately, us wanting something doesn't really mean much. You might not be able to get the achieves for doing any of the MFs; I will never get the harder Trifectas, I probably won't ever get the Beast Personality that I really want. Vet No-Death is pretty much impossible for me, with as overwhelmed as I get.

That is a defeatist attitude.

I started this game in 2019. One of the main things I wanted at the time was the Beast personality for my werewolf character, but I was really put off by group content since I - like a lot of people - was a Skyrim convert and my first thought was "eww, other people."

And then I stepped outside my comfort zone to get into it. I started with the UESP guild since I was on their website all the time, so I figured that being in a guild with other lore nerds would help me feel better and fit in.

And... it worked. Like... I did fit in. And the more I played with them, the more I liked all elements of the game.

They offered Dungeon runs for people who wanted things - gear, training, and even who just wanted to run the stories to experience them. I have done every one of the 56 dungeons in the game as a lore run, meaning I have gotten to take them at my own pace with other people who also wanted to experience the stories, and therefore we were all on the same page. And from that guild, I made friends and we still run things together (and my 4-man trifecta group, that has now done every 4-man achievement in the game, is all people who are still in that guild with me).

So... have you ever... tried to get it? Like, really tried. Not "oh I put it on group finder or pugged it and someone yelled at me." I mean like have you joined a guild of like-minded people, have you discussed how you can optimize your build to your specific conditions (I saw a build video yesterday of someone who developed an Oakensoul heavy attack build that does 130k+), have you progged these achievements with people consistently and practiced?

And besides, carries are totally a thing as well. If it is physically impossible to get the achievement naturally (which it isn't, but let's say for the sake of argument that it is), there are guilds that offer carry services so you can still get that. I was considering buying a carry to get mine before I ended up joining a group and then having fun and getting it the standard way.

Your post essentially is saying "I wanted a way to get the rewards for doing hard group content without it being hard or being in groups, and I want no special rewards for anyone who plays above a casual level ever."
And I'm sorry, but that's called entitlement.