Streak needs a CC nerf

MeridiaFavorsMe · August 25

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

You can still cast abilities, block, and roll dodge while immobilized by Bombard. So while Bombard can be a decent CC, it doesn't completely lock you out of your character. Streak does.

Bombard also has a cone-shaped area, whereas Streak has that massive rectangular AoE. Bombard can actually miss targets, especially when they're close to you or positioned outside the cone. Streak's enormous area makes that much harder to do, and in many situations you're essentially guaranteed to catch anyone in its path with Streak.

You can also gain permanent immunity to Bombard's immobilize through Snow Treaders or Banner, and there is direct counterplay to the root itself. If you are roll dodging as Bombard hits you or shortly after, and you gain root immunity for 3 seconds afterward.

That's the key difference. Bombard has multiple forms of counterplay and meaningful limitations. Streak doesn't. Comparing the two just because they're both AoE CCs ignores the actual mechanics that make Streak so much more oppressive.

If the suggestion @hoangdz is proposing is to have Streak immobilize instead of stun, I think that would be fine.

Wuuffyy · August 25

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don't see why you're adamant to defend something that is so very clearly overtuned especially since CoE is vastly unchanged on sustain on PTS for a mag sorc (i.e. the sustain decrease can still be mitigated through gameplay and not sets, etc.).

I am adamant to defend Streak because I do not view it as the root cause of the current Sorc problem people face in PvP, but rather the catalyst that is being wrongly put under the spotlight. My reasoning is as followed:

A car can only go as fast as its engine allows. You can install the most advanced tyres available, but if your engine only makes 200 bhp, you are not going anywhere in a race. In this metaphor, the "engine" would be Sorc's offensive/defensive stats and abilities, and the "tyres" would be Streak. Prior to U50, there were patches where Sorc was completely dogwater in PvP despite Streak being largely unchanged. As soon as the class received major updates, such as Hardened Ward and the recent mastery passives, Streak really started to shine. However, is it really Streak overperforming, or is it the aforementioned buffs that provided the engine to let Streak do its work?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bombard is a relatively short range skill in a cone (meaning the user still has to be relatively close and the skill itself or 'bow kit' is not guaranteeing that user's safety should issues arise) that is generally more avoidable in actual combat than Streak's rectangle that stuns through block (cannot be blocked) and roll dodge (cannot be roll dodged); Bombard also has a substantial cost of typically over 3k stam that is considerable for the majority of classes outside of Sorc and DK, PTS (which we can assume may change in the future, but again, streak cost is currently a non-issue for any remotely competent player on PTS). Lastly, immobilizes have an internal CD of 3 seconds after any roll, can be purged/purified, and snare immunity as a whole is far more widely available (understandably) than CC immunity.

Respectfully, this is untrue. Without any cost reduction passives considered, Bombard has a base cost of 3240 stamina compared to Streak which sits at 3780:

Bombard has an effective range of 20m in a conal radius, while Streak teleports your character forward across a 6x15m distance. Bombard's base tooltip is also ~300 higher than that of Streak, and can be increased further with Bow's 25% damage done buff and Storm Calling's 5% physical damage modifier.

Since medium armor passives are vastly superior to those of light armor, Bombard's cost can be further reduced to below 3k, with Sorc getting it as low as 1.9k. Below is a screenshot of my Bombard's cost in 5 medium armor and on Sorc:

For a ranged AoE pseudo spammable that also applies an uncapped AoE immobilization, that cost is lower than many single target spammables in the game. With CoE and a decent stamina pool, Bombard functions as a much better soft CC than Streak, especially with Streak possessing a ramping cost while Bombard does not.

The immobilization counters you stated are generally not sufficient for the following reasons:

1) Internal CD after any roll

Compared to CC immunity which has a 7s duration after breaking free and 15s with an Immovability potion, immobilization immunity is just not long enough. Within that 7s window and accounting for a roll dodge, you would still have been rooted twice. To completely nullify Bombard's soft CC potential, you would have to either use RaT/Deceptive Predator/Fleetstep Wings or any equivalent skill every 4-6s or wear Snowtreaders, both of which cost precious GCDs, resources, or a mythic option.

2) Can be purged/purify

It does not matter. As soon as the root effect gets removed, the Bombard user will have immediately applied another one right after because cleansing abilities do not provide immobilization immunity. Since Bombard has a cost comparable to many spammables, purifying this CC is completely pointless.

3) Root immunity availability

This is one point I would somewhat agree with you, but as mentioned above, I could also argue that Bombard's overwhelming effectiveness indirectly forces a receiving player to waste GCDs countering it. It does not appear to be enough, but that extra GCD absolutely matters because to properly counter Bombard, you would have to cast your root immunity right as you get within the 20 range due to the 4-6s effect duration. Any attempt to pre-cast before that would waste at least another GCD or roll dodge.

For most players though, Bombard is extremely more oppressive to fight against because, quite frankly, a lot of them do not slot a snare immunity lol.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Also, I'd like to acknowledge the argument and comparison to 'Bombard' is a very clear example of a 'Strawman'.

It is not. Bombard is categorized as a CC ability, so it falls within scope. I merely brought this up because I have simultaneously used Streak and Bombard on my CC-bot Sorc for group PvP, and I discovered that Bombard serves a much better role as a CC disruptor/peeler than Streak.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I think removing the AoE cap would actually be a more appropriate start to adjusting its problematic behavior but if we are truly set on 'enabling gap closers'/chasing to be a proper counter to streak, then streak should really only stun on the landing location and not in the beginning or middle of the streak itself.

I disagree. Adjusting Streak's CC mechanic to only stun on the landing location would absolutely kill this ability, as you would have to position your character exactly 15m away from your target. That is an impossible thing to do in a real fight when melee players are constantly gap closing onto you. To stun people with this version of Streak mid fight, you would have to Streak away twice to create enough distance, then turn around and Streak at someone again...It is absurd to think about lol. The only 2 scenarios where it could reliably work would be initiating a fight beyond the 15m range or chasing down a fleeing target, both of which are short-lived occasions and nonrepresentative of a real ongoing fight.

'Gish Galloping'; multiple answers and context for many of your 'gotchya' replies are held within the actual quotes you're replying to if you care to analyze them.

Regardless, believing that sorc streak needs absolutely no changes after a top down view of the skill and the current state of sorc, even post nerfs, is a bias like no other. You've already self-identified as a 'sorc main' and it's very clear based on how adamant your "rebuttals" are that this standing has a direct impact on your responses here.

You also contradict yourself in that 'streak has no counters' and then have multiple times needed to take a stand which shows it, in fact, does not have actual and real counters in the context, just as many others have already stated.

The only other arguments you can fabricate seem to be ones talking about Bombard 0.o.

hoangdz · August 25

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

You can still cast abilities, block, and roll dodge while immobilized by Bombard. So while Bombard can be a decent CC, it doesn't completely lock you out of your character. Streak does.

Bombard also has a cone-shaped area, whereas Streak has that massive rectangular AoE. Bombard can actually miss targets, especially when they're close to you or positioned outside the cone. Streak's enormous area makes that much harder to do, and in many situations you're essentially guaranteed to catch anyone in its path with Streak.

You can also gain permanent immunity to Bombard's immobilize through Snow Treaders or Banner, and there is direct counterplay to the root itself. If you are roll dodging as Bombard hits you or shortly after, and you gain root immunity for 3 seconds afterward.

That's the key difference. Bombard has multiple forms of counterplay and meaningful limitations. Streak doesn't. Comparing the two just because they're both AoE CCs ignores the actual mechanics that make Streak so much more oppressive.

If the suggestion @hoangdz is proposing is to have Streak immobilize instead of stun, I think that would be fine.

Bombard can be spammed from max range and is extremely effective vs large groups, while also functioning as a pseudo spammable. It is functionally better than Streak as a CC tool, and I am literally talking from experience playing a bombard spammer with Streak on my bar in Cyrodiil lol.

You cannot really convince me on this because I have already put in the hours play-testing a dedicated CC build. Bombard far excels its role as a CC ability than Streak ever will. And no, I am not suggesting Streak to be reworked as an immobilization. You can stop putting words in my mouth.

ceruulean · August 25

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

Crazy that a "top-tier player" is bringing up Bombard as a comparable alternative. I have never seen someone use Bombard in PvP since 2018.

hoangdz · August 25

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don't see why you're adamant to defend something that is so very clearly overtuned especially since CoE is vastly unchanged on sustain on PTS for a mag sorc (i.e. the sustain decrease can still be mitigated through gameplay and not sets, etc.).

I am adamant to defend Streak because I do not view it as the root cause of the current Sorc problem people face in PvP, but rather the catalyst that is being wrongly put under the spotlight. My reasoning is as followed:

A car can only go as fast as its engine allows. You can install the most advanced tyres available, but if your engine only makes 200 bhp, you are not going anywhere in a race. In this metaphor, the "engine" would be Sorc's offensive/defensive stats and abilities, and the "tyres" would be Streak. Prior to U50, there were patches where Sorc was completely dogwater in PvP despite Streak being largely unchanged. As soon as the class received major updates, such as Hardened Ward and the recent mastery passives, Streak really started to shine. However, is it really Streak overperforming, or is it the aforementioned buffs that provided the engine to let Streak do its work?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bombard is a relatively short range skill in a cone (meaning the user still has to be relatively close and the skill itself or 'bow kit' is not guaranteeing that user's safety should issues arise) that is generally more avoidable in actual combat than Streak's rectangle that stuns through block (cannot be blocked) and roll dodge (cannot be roll dodged); Bombard also has a substantial cost of typically over 3k stam that is considerable for the majority of classes outside of Sorc and DK, PTS (which we can assume may change in the future, but again, streak cost is currently a non-issue for any remotely competent player on PTS). Lastly, immobilizes have an internal CD of 3 seconds after any roll, can be purged/purified, and snare immunity as a whole is far more widely available (understandably) than CC immunity.

Respectfully, this is untrue. Without any cost reduction passives considered, Bombard has a base cost of 3240 stamina compared to Streak which sits at 3780:

Bombard has an effective range of 20m in a conal radius, while Streak teleports your character forward across a 6x15m distance. Bombard's base tooltip is also ~300 higher than that of Streak, and can be increased further with Bow's 25% damage done buff and Storm Calling's 5% physical damage modifier.

Since medium armor passives are vastly superior to those of light armor, Bombard's cost can be further reduced to below 3k, with Sorc getting it as low as 1.9k. Below is a screenshot of my Bombard's cost in 5 medium armor and on Sorc:

For a ranged AoE pseudo spammable that also applies an uncapped AoE immobilization, that cost is lower than many single target spammables in the game. With CoE and a decent stamina pool, Bombard functions as a much better soft CC than Streak, especially with Streak possessing a ramping cost while Bombard does not.

The immobilization counters you stated are generally not sufficient for the following reasons:

1) Internal CD after any roll

Compared to CC immunity which has a 7s duration after breaking free and 15s with an Immovability potion, immobilization immunity is just not long enough. Within that 7s window and accounting for a roll dodge, you would still have been rooted twice. To completely nullify Bombard's soft CC potential, you would have to either use RaT/Deceptive Predator/Fleetstep Wings or any equivalent skill every 4-6s or wear Snowtreaders, both of which cost precious GCDs, resources, or a mythic option.

2) Can be purged/purify

It does not matter. As soon as the root effect gets removed, the Bombard user will have immediately applied another one right after because cleansing abilities do not provide immobilization immunity. Since Bombard has a cost comparable to many spammables, purifying this CC is completely pointless.

3) Root immunity availability

This is one point I would somewhat agree with you, but as mentioned above, I could also argue that Bombard's overwhelming effectiveness indirectly forces a receiving player to waste GCDs countering it. It does not appear to be enough, but that extra GCD absolutely matters because to properly counter Bombard, you would have to cast your root immunity right as you get within the 20 range due to the 4-6s effect duration. Any attempt to pre-cast before that would waste at least another GCD or roll dodge.

For most players though, Bombard is extremely more oppressive to fight against because, quite frankly, a lot of them do not slot a snare immunity lol.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Also, I'd like to acknowledge the argument and comparison to 'Bombard' is a very clear example of a 'Strawman'.

It is not. Bombard is categorized as a CC ability, so it falls within scope. I merely brought this up because I have simultaneously used Streak and Bombard on my CC-bot Sorc for group PvP, and I discovered that Bombard serves a much better role as a CC disruptor/peeler than Streak.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I think removing the AoE cap would actually be a more appropriate start to adjusting its problematic behavior but if we are truly set on 'enabling gap closers'/chasing to be a proper counter to streak, then streak should really only stun on the landing location and not in the beginning or middle of the streak itself.

I disagree. Adjusting Streak's CC mechanic to only stun on the landing location would absolutely kill this ability, as you would have to position your character exactly 15m away from your target. That is an impossible thing to do in a real fight when melee players are constantly gap closing onto you. To stun people with this version of Streak mid fight, you would have to Streak away twice to create enough distance, then turn around and Streak at someone again...It is absurd to think about lol. The only 2 scenarios where it could reliably work would be initiating a fight beyond the 15m range or chasing down a fleeing target, both of which are short-lived occasions and nonrepresentative of a real ongoing fight.

'Gish Galloping'; multiple answers and context for many of your 'gotchya' replies are held within the actual quotes you're replying to if you care to analyze them.

Regardless, believing that sorc streak needs absolutely no changes after a top down view of the skill and the current state of sorc, even post nerfs, is a bias like no other. You've already self-identified as a 'sorc main' and it's very clear based on how adamant your "rebuttals" are that this standing has a direct impact on your responses here.

You also contradict yourself in that 'streak has no counters' and then have multiple times needed to take a stand which shows it, in fact, does not have actual and real counters in the context, just as many others have already stated.

The only other arguments you can fabricate seem to be ones talking about Bombard 0.o.

Instead of arguing with me on the forums, you should take sometime to play a Bombard build. You'll understand.

ceruulean · August 25

Lol the argument for Bombard being better than streak is it works again bad/unknowledgeable zergling players, as a bot build part of a group. And that it benefits from sorcerer passives. And despite Bombard being better CC, he still has streak on his bar. That is not the gotcha or flex that it seems.

hoangdz · August 25

ceruulean wrote: »

Lol the argument for Bombard being better than streak is it works again bad/unknowledgeable zergling players, as a bot build part of a group. And that it benefits from sorcerer passives. And despite Bombard being better CC, he still has streak on his bar. That is not the gotcha or flex that it seems.

1) It works against both bad and good players
2) I use Streak on my bar to layer CCs on my CC bot build

Your comment isn't really that much of a gotcha either, ironically. Good players don't really complain that much about Streak lol.

MeridiaFavorsMe · August 25

hoangdz wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

You can still cast abilities, block, and roll dodge while immobilized by Bombard. So while Bombard can be a decent CC, it doesn't completely lock you out of your character. Streak does.

Bombard also has a cone-shaped area, whereas Streak has that massive rectangular AoE. Bombard can actually miss targets, especially when they're close to you or positioned outside the cone. Streak's enormous area makes that much harder to do, and in many situations you're essentially guaranteed to catch anyone in its path with Streak.

You can also gain permanent immunity to Bombard's immobilize through Snow Treaders or Banner, and there is direct counterplay to the root itself. If you are roll dodging as Bombard hits you or shortly after, and you gain root immunity for 3 seconds afterward.

That's the key difference. Bombard has multiple forms of counterplay and meaningful limitations. Streak doesn't. Comparing the two just because they're both AoE CCs ignores the actual mechanics that make Streak so much more oppressive.

If the suggestion @hoangdz is proposing is to have Streak immobilize instead of stun, I think that would be fine.

Bombard can be spammed from max range and is extremely effective vs large groups, while also functioning as a pseudo spammable. It is functionally better than Streak as a CC tool, and I am literally talking from experience playing a bombard spammer with Streak on my bar in Cyrodiil lol.

You cannot really convince me on this because I have already put in the hours play-testing a dedicated CC build. Bombard far excels its role as a CC ability than Streak ever will. And no, I am not suggesting Streak to be reworked as an immobilization. You can stop putting words in my mouth.

If you genuinely believe Bombard is a better CC tool than Streak, then you should have no problem with Streak being changed from a stun into a root. I'd actually be perfectly fine with that change.

But the comparison doesn't hold up mechanically. Bombard has a ton of counterplay, including roll dodging it, gaining root immunity, using Snow Treaders or Banner, breaking the cone, and exploiting the fact that it can miss targets at close range.

Streak has none of those meaningful counters. It's an enormous AoE, unblockable and undodgeable, instant CC attached to a mobility skill.

So if Bombard really is "functionally better" as a CC, then changing Streak into a root should be an obvious improvement for you. You'd still have the mobility, while giving opponents some of the counterplay Bombard already has. But somehow you're arguing that Bombard is stronger while also insisting Streak can't be changed in the same direction. That doesn't add up.

hoangdz · August 25

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

You can still cast abilities, block, and roll dodge while immobilized by Bombard. So while Bombard can be a decent CC, it doesn't completely lock you out of your character. Streak does.

Bombard also has a cone-shaped area, whereas Streak has that massive rectangular AoE. Bombard can actually miss targets, especially when they're close to you or positioned outside the cone. Streak's enormous area makes that much harder to do, and in many situations you're essentially guaranteed to catch anyone in its path with Streak.

You can also gain permanent immunity to Bombard's immobilize through Snow Treaders or Banner, and there is direct counterplay to the root itself. If you are roll dodging as Bombard hits you or shortly after, and you gain root immunity for 3 seconds afterward.

That's the key difference. Bombard has multiple forms of counterplay and meaningful limitations. Streak doesn't. Comparing the two just because they're both AoE CCs ignores the actual mechanics that make Streak so much more oppressive.

If the suggestion @hoangdz is proposing is to have Streak immobilize instead of stun, I think that would be fine.

Bombard can be spammed from max range and is extremely effective vs large groups, while also functioning as a pseudo spammable. It is functionally better than Streak as a CC tool, and I am literally talking from experience playing a bombard spammer with Streak on my bar in Cyrodiil lol.

You cannot really convince me on this because I have already put in the hours play-testing a dedicated CC build. Bombard far excels its role as a CC ability than Streak ever will. And no, I am not suggesting Streak to be reworked as an immobilization. You can stop putting words in my mouth.

If you genuinely believe Bombard is a better CC tool than Streak, then you should have no problem with Streak being changed from a stun into a root. I'd actually be perfectly fine with that change.

But the comparison doesn't hold up mechanically. Bombard has a ton of counterplay, including roll dodging it, gaining root immunity, using Snow Treaders or Banner, breaking the cone, and exploiting the fact that it can miss targets at close range.

Streak has none of those meaningful counters. It's an enormous AoE, unblockable and undodgeable, instant CC attached to a mobility skill.

So if Bombard really is "functionally better" as a CC, then changing Streak into a root should be an obvious improvement for you. You'd still have the mobility, while giving opponents some of the counterplay Bombard already has. But somehow you're arguing that Bombard is stronger while also insisting Streak can't be changed in the same direction. That doesn't add up.

1) Nobody would use Streak as a root when Bombard exists. Changing it to a root would kill the skill. No thanks.
2) I have already explained to Wuuffyy why the counterplays do not work reliably, and I've experienced this in game watching people try them. I'll just paste the explanation here:

The immobilization counters you stated are generally not sufficient for the following reasons:

1) Internal CD after any roll

Compared to CC immunity which has a 7s duration after breaking free and 15s with an Immovability potion, immobilization immunity is just not long enough. Within that 7s window and accounting for a roll dodge, you would still have been rooted twice. To completely nullify Bombard's soft CC potential, you would have to either use RaT/Deceptive Predator/Fleetstep Wings or any equivalent skill every 4-6s or wear Snowtreaders, both of which cost precious GCDs, resources, or a mythic option.

2) Can be purged/purify

It does not matter. As soon as the root effect gets removed, the Bombard user will have immediately applied another one right after because cleansing abilities do not provide immobilization immunity. Since Bombard has a cost comparable to many spammables, purifying this CC is completely pointless.

3) Root immunity availability

This is one point I would somewhat agree with you, but as mentioned above, I could also argue that Bombard's overwhelming effectiveness indirectly forces a receiving player to waste GCDs countering it. It does not appear to be enough, but that extra GCD absolutely matters because to properly counter Bombard, you would have to cast your root immunity right as you get within the 20 range due to the 4-6s effect duration. Any attempt to pre-cast before that would waste at least another GCD or roll dodge.

For most players though, Bombard is extremely more oppressive to fight against because, quite frankly, a lot of them do not slot a snare immunity lol.

3) Arguing Streak's effectiveness in isolation without considering the class as a whole does not make your case strong. Streak is really not a big deal without meaningful follow up. Like, I could sit and let Shattering Rocks stun me all the time if DK didn't have a reliable 35k+ burst combo or 7k DPS against a full tank build. It is no different with Sorc.

CannedChicken · August 25

ceruulean wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I disagree. Adjusting Streak's CC mechanic to only stun on the landing location would absolutely kill this ability, as you would have to position your character exactly 15m away from your target. That is an impossible thing to do in a real fight when melee players are constantly gap closing onto you. To stun people with this version of Streak mid fight, you would have to Streak away twice to create enough distance, then turn around and Streak at someone again...It is absurd to think about lol. The only 2 scenarios where it could reliably work would be initiating a fight beyond the 15m range or chasing down a fleeing target, both of which are short-lived occasions and nonrepresentative of a real ongoing fight.

You have rune cage CC. It means you have to make a tradeoff instead of getting everything you want in one tool. Of course ZOS has bloated skills over the years so who knows. Tons of arcanists and sorcerers love their teleports with CDs in Vengeance. Arcanist teleport doesn't even stun but people slot it anyway. I wonder why having unbridled mobility is soooo valuable.

Also I don't think streak was always undodgable and unblockable. I don't remember it being that oppressive in 2018.

I agree with the Rune Cage point. Sorc already has an unblockable CC. If Streak's CC had meaningful counterplay, you could use Rune Cage when you specifically need an unblockable stun.

That's called a tradeoff. You shouldn't get the strongest mobility, massive AoE, damage, and an unblockable/undodgeable CC all in one ability with no meaningful downside.

The fact that people willingly slot mobility skills that don't even stun should tell you how valuable that mobility already is. Streak doesn't need to give you everything at once.

CannedChicken · August 25

hoangdz wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

You can still cast abilities, block, and roll dodge while immobilized by Bombard. So while Bombard can be a decent CC, it doesn't completely lock you out of your character. Streak does.

Bombard also has a cone-shaped area, whereas Streak has that massive rectangular AoE. Bombard can actually miss targets, especially when they're close to you or positioned outside the cone. Streak's enormous area makes that much harder to do, and in many situations you're essentially guaranteed to catch anyone in its path with Streak.

You can also gain permanent immunity to Bombard's immobilize through Snow Treaders or Banner, and there is direct counterplay to the root itself. If you are roll dodging as Bombard hits you or shortly after, and you gain root immunity for 3 seconds afterward.

That's the key difference. Bombard has multiple forms of counterplay and meaningful limitations. Streak doesn't. Comparing the two just because they're both AoE CCs ignores the actual mechanics that make Streak so much more oppressive.

If the suggestion @hoangdz is proposing is to have Streak immobilize instead of stun, I think that would be fine.

Bombard can be spammed from max range and is extremely effective vs large groups, while also functioning as a pseudo spammable. It is functionally better than Streak as a CC tool, and I am literally talking from experience playing a bombard spammer with Streak on my bar in Cyrodiil lol.

You cannot really convince me on this because I have already put in the hours play-testing a dedicated CC build. Bombard far excels its role as a CC ability than Streak ever will. And no, I am not suggesting Streak to be reworked as an immobilization. You can stop putting words in my mouth.

If you genuinely believe Bombard is a better CC tool than Streak, then you should have no problem with Streak being changed from a stun into a root. I'd actually be perfectly fine with that change.

But the comparison doesn't hold up mechanically. Bombard has a ton of counterplay, including roll dodging it, gaining root immunity, using Snow Treaders or Banner, breaking the cone, and exploiting the fact that it can miss targets at close range.

Streak has none of those meaningful counters. It's an enormous AoE, unblockable and undodgeable, instant CC attached to a mobility skill.

So if Bombard really is "functionally better" as a CC, then changing Streak into a root should be an obvious improvement for you. You'd still have the mobility, while giving opponents some of the counterplay Bombard already has. But somehow you're arguing that Bombard is stronger while also insisting Streak can't be changed in the same direction. That doesn't add up.

1) Nobody would use Streak as a root when Bombard exists. Changing it to a root would kill the skill. No thanks.

It would literally be Bombard with mobility—and a superior version of it at that.

You just argued that Bombard is a better CC tool than Streak, so why would nobody use a Streak root? It would have a huge AoE, mobility attached to it, damage, and all the advantages Streak already has, while gaining the same type of CC you claim is so effective on Bombard.

You can't argue that Bombard's root is superior to Streak's stun and then pretend that giving Streak a root would somehow make Streak useless. Those two arguments contradict each other.

Can you just be honest in this thread instead of constantly changing your argument? You've been caught contradicting yourself at least five times now, and you've spent the entire thread gish galloping from one argument to another whenever one of your previous points gets challenged. You've already been called out by someone else in this thread for doing exactly that.

I understand that you genuinely believe Streak should stay exactly as it is. That's fine. But at this point, you're defending the current version of Streak while constantly shifting the argument to avoid addressing the actual problems being raised.

Just be honest that you don't want the ability you use changed. You don't need to keep moving the goalposts and throwing out a new argument every time the previous one falls apart.

You and I both know Streak is the strongest CC in the game. Whenever you argue otherwise, you're just being dishonest about what you actually believe.

You've spent this entire thread trying to downplay Streak by comparing it to abilities that don't have anything close to its combination of AoE, range, mobility, damage, and lack of counterplay.

Wuuffyy · August 25

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don't see why you're adamant to defend something that is so very clearly overtuned especially since CoE is vastly unchanged on sustain on PTS for a mag sorc (i.e. the sustain decrease can still be mitigated through gameplay and not sets, etc.).

I am adamant to defend Streak because I do not view it as the root cause of the current Sorc problem people face in PvP, but rather the catalyst that is being wrongly put under the spotlight. My reasoning is as followed:

A car can only go as fast as its engine allows. You can install the most advanced tyres available, but if your engine only makes 200 bhp, you are not going anywhere in a race. In this metaphor, the "engine" would be Sorc's offensive/defensive stats and abilities, and the "tyres" would be Streak. Prior to U50, there were patches where Sorc was completely dogwater in PvP despite Streak being largely unchanged. As soon as the class received major updates, such as Hardened Ward and the recent mastery passives, Streak really started to shine. However, is it really Streak overperforming, or is it the aforementioned buffs that provided the engine to let Streak do its work?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bombard is a relatively short range skill in a cone (meaning the user still has to be relatively close and the skill itself or 'bow kit' is not guaranteeing that user's safety should issues arise) that is generally more avoidable in actual combat than Streak's rectangle that stuns through block (cannot be blocked) and roll dodge (cannot be roll dodged); Bombard also has a substantial cost of typically over 3k stam that is considerable for the majority of classes outside of Sorc and DK, PTS (which we can assume may change in the future, but again, streak cost is currently a non-issue for any remotely competent player on PTS). Lastly, immobilizes have an internal CD of 3 seconds after any roll, can be purged/purified, and snare immunity as a whole is far more widely available (understandably) than CC immunity.

Respectfully, this is untrue. Without any cost reduction passives considered, Bombard has a base cost of 3240 stamina compared to Streak which sits at 3780:

Bombard has an effective range of 20m in a conal radius, while Streak teleports your character forward across a 6x15m distance. Bombard's base tooltip is also ~300 higher than that of Streak, and can be increased further with Bow's 25% damage done buff and Storm Calling's 5% physical damage modifier.

Since medium armor passives are vastly superior to those of light armor, Bombard's cost can be further reduced to below 3k, with Sorc getting it as low as 1.9k. Below is a screenshot of my Bombard's cost in 5 medium armor and on Sorc:

For a ranged AoE pseudo spammable that also applies an uncapped AoE immobilization, that cost is lower than many single target spammables in the game. With CoE and a decent stamina pool, Bombard functions as a much better soft CC than Streak, especially with Streak possessing a ramping cost while Bombard does not.

The immobilization counters you stated are generally not sufficient for the following reasons:

1) Internal CD after any roll

Compared to CC immunity which has a 7s duration after breaking free and 15s with an Immovability potion, immobilization immunity is just not long enough. Within that 7s window and accounting for a roll dodge, you would still have been rooted twice. To completely nullify Bombard's soft CC potential, you would have to either use RaT/Deceptive Predator/Fleetstep Wings or any equivalent skill every 4-6s or wear Snowtreaders, both of which cost precious GCDs, resources, or a mythic option.

2) Can be purged/purify

It does not matter. As soon as the root effect gets removed, the Bombard user will have immediately applied another one right after because cleansing abilities do not provide immobilization immunity. Since Bombard has a cost comparable to many spammables, purifying this CC is completely pointless.

3) Root immunity availability

This is one point I would somewhat agree with you, but as mentioned above, I could also argue that Bombard's overwhelming effectiveness indirectly forces a receiving player to waste GCDs countering it. It does not appear to be enough, but that extra GCD absolutely matters because to properly counter Bombard, you would have to cast your root immunity right as you get within the 20 range due to the 4-6s effect duration. Any attempt to pre-cast before that would waste at least another GCD or roll dodge.

For most players though, Bombard is extremely more oppressive to fight against because, quite frankly, a lot of them do not slot a snare immunity lol.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Also, I'd like to acknowledge the argument and comparison to 'Bombard' is a very clear example of a 'Strawman'.

It is not. Bombard is categorized as a CC ability, so it falls within scope. I merely brought this up because I have simultaneously used Streak and Bombard on my CC-bot Sorc for group PvP, and I discovered that Bombard serves a much better role as a CC disruptor/peeler than Streak.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I think removing the AoE cap would actually be a more appropriate start to adjusting its problematic behavior but if we are truly set on 'enabling gap closers'/chasing to be a proper counter to streak, then streak should really only stun on the landing location and not in the beginning or middle of the streak itself.

I disagree. Adjusting Streak's CC mechanic to only stun on the landing location would absolutely kill this ability, as you would have to position your character exactly 15m away from your target. That is an impossible thing to do in a real fight when melee players are constantly gap closing onto you. To stun people with this version of Streak mid fight, you would have to Streak away twice to create enough distance, then turn around and Streak at someone again...It is absurd to think about lol. The only 2 scenarios where it could reliably work would be initiating a fight beyond the 15m range or chasing down a fleeing target, both of which are short-lived occasions and nonrepresentative of a real ongoing fight.

'Gish Galloping'; multiple answers and context for many of your 'gotchya' replies are held within the actual quotes you're replying to if you care to analyze them.

Regardless, believing that sorc streak needs absolutely no changes after a top down view of the skill and the current state of sorc, even post nerfs, is a bias like no other. You've already self-identified as a 'sorc main' and it's very clear based on how adamant your "rebuttals" are that this standing has a direct impact on your responses here.

You also contradict yourself in that 'streak has no counters' and then have multiple times needed to take a stand which shows it, in fact, does not have actual and real counters in the context, just as many others have already stated.

The only other arguments you can fabricate seem to be ones talking about Bombard 0.o.

Instead of arguing with me on the forums, you should take sometime to play a Bombard build. You'll understand.

When I see you speak with others on Streak, your arguments kind of remind of those Russian nesting dolls:

You finish up with one and another comes out. Sure, it could be 'Bombard', or maybe now we're referring to what 'Shade' is capable of when referencing streak.

CannedChicken · August 25

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don't see why you're adamant to defend something that is so very clearly overtuned especially since CoE is vastly unchanged on sustain on PTS for a mag sorc (i.e. the sustain decrease can still be mitigated through gameplay and not sets, etc.).

I am adamant to defend Streak because I do not view it as the root cause of the current Sorc problem people face in PvP, but rather the catalyst that is being wrongly put under the spotlight. My reasoning is as followed:

A car can only go as fast as its engine allows. You can install the most advanced tyres available, but if your engine only makes 200 bhp, you are not going anywhere in a race. In this metaphor, the "engine" would be Sorc's offensive/defensive stats and abilities, and the "tyres" would be Streak. Prior to U50, there were patches where Sorc was completely dogwater in PvP despite Streak being largely unchanged. As soon as the class received major updates, such as Hardened Ward and the recent mastery passives, Streak really started to shine. However, is it really Streak overperforming, or is it the aforementioned buffs that provided the engine to let Streak do its work?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bombard is a relatively short range skill in a cone (meaning the user still has to be relatively close and the skill itself or 'bow kit' is not guaranteeing that user's safety should issues arise) that is generally more avoidable in actual combat than Streak's rectangle that stuns through block (cannot be blocked) and roll dodge (cannot be roll dodged); Bombard also has a substantial cost of typically over 3k stam that is considerable for the majority of classes outside of Sorc and DK, PTS (which we can assume may change in the future, but again, streak cost is currently a non-issue for any remotely competent player on PTS). Lastly, immobilizes have an internal CD of 3 seconds after any roll, can be purged/purified, and snare immunity as a whole is far more widely available (understandably) than CC immunity.

Respectfully, this is untrue. Without any cost reduction passives considered, Bombard has a base cost of 3240 stamina compared to Streak which sits at 3780:

Bombard has an effective range of 20m in a conal radius, while Streak teleports your character forward across a 6x15m distance. Bombard's base tooltip is also ~300 higher than that of Streak, and can be increased further with Bow's 25% damage done buff and Storm Calling's 5% physical damage modifier.

Since medium armor passives are vastly superior to those of light armor, Bombard's cost can be further reduced to below 3k, with Sorc getting it as low as 1.9k. Below is a screenshot of my Bombard's cost in 5 medium armor and on Sorc:

For a ranged AoE pseudo spammable that also applies an uncapped AoE immobilization, that cost is lower than many single target spammables in the game. With CoE and a decent stamina pool, Bombard functions as a much better soft CC than Streak, especially with Streak possessing a ramping cost while Bombard does not.

The immobilization counters you stated are generally not sufficient for the following reasons:

1) Internal CD after any roll

Compared to CC immunity which has a 7s duration after breaking free and 15s with an Immovability potion, immobilization immunity is just not long enough. Within that 7s window and accounting for a roll dodge, you would still have been rooted twice. To completely nullify Bombard's soft CC potential, you would have to either use RaT/Deceptive Predator/Fleetstep Wings or any equivalent skill every 4-6s or wear Snowtreaders, both of which cost precious GCDs, resources, or a mythic option.

2) Can be purged/purify

It does not matter. As soon as the root effect gets removed, the Bombard user will have immediately applied another one right after because cleansing abilities do not provide immobilization immunity. Since Bombard has a cost comparable to many spammables, purifying this CC is completely pointless.

3) Root immunity availability

This is one point I would somewhat agree with you, but as mentioned above, I could also argue that Bombard's overwhelming effectiveness indirectly forces a receiving player to waste GCDs countering it. It does not appear to be enough, but that extra GCD absolutely matters because to properly counter Bombard, you would have to cast your root immunity right as you get within the 20 range due to the 4-6s effect duration. Any attempt to pre-cast before that would waste at least another GCD or roll dodge.

For most players though, Bombard is extremely more oppressive to fight against because, quite frankly, a lot of them do not slot a snare immunity lol.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Also, I'd like to acknowledge the argument and comparison to 'Bombard' is a very clear example of a 'Strawman'.

It is not. Bombard is categorized as a CC ability, so it falls within scope. I merely brought this up because I have simultaneously used Streak and Bombard on my CC-bot Sorc for group PvP, and I discovered that Bombard serves a much better role as a CC disruptor/peeler than Streak.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I think removing the AoE cap would actually be a more appropriate start to adjusting its problematic behavior but if we are truly set on 'enabling gap closers'/chasing to be a proper counter to streak, then streak should really only stun on the landing location and not in the beginning or middle of the streak itself.

I disagree. Adjusting Streak's CC mechanic to only stun on the landing location would absolutely kill this ability, as you would have to position your character exactly 15m away from your target. That is an impossible thing to do in a real fight when melee players are constantly gap closing onto you. To stun people with this version of Streak mid fight, you would have to Streak away twice to create enough distance, then turn around and Streak at someone again...It is absurd to think about lol. The only 2 scenarios where it could reliably work would be initiating a fight beyond the 15m range or chasing down a fleeing target, both of which are short-lived occasions and nonrepresentative of a real ongoing fight.

'Gish Galloping'; multiple answers and context for many of your 'gotchya' replies are held within the actual quotes you're replying to if you care to analyze them.

Regardless, believing that sorc streak needs absolutely no changes after a top down view of the skill and the current state of sorc, even post nerfs, is a bias like no other. You've already self-identified as a 'sorc main' and it's very clear based on how adamant your "rebuttals" are that this standing has a direct impact on your responses here.

You also contradict yourself in that 'streak has no counters' and then have multiple times needed to take a stand which shows it, in fact, does not have actual and real counters in the context, just as many others have already stated.

The only other arguments you can fabricate seem to be ones talking about Bombard 0.o.

Instead of arguing with me on the forums, you should take sometime to play a Bombard build. You'll understand.

When I see you speak with others on Streak, your arguments kind of remind of those Russian nesting dolls:

You finish up with one and another comes out. Sure, it could be 'Bombard', or maybe now we're referring to what 'Shade' is capable of when referencing streak.

The goal is to constantly move the goal post and be as dishonest as he can about his opinions.

We all know Streak is the strongest CC in the game. The fact that he tried to argue that bombard was stronger is the most obvious case thus far that he is lying.

Edit: I would bet the usage stats for bombard in cyrodiil are less than 1%.

Luneca · August 25

CannedChicken wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don't see why you're adamant to defend something that is so very clearly overtuned especially since CoE is vastly unchanged on sustain on PTS for a mag sorc (i.e. the sustain decrease can still be mitigated through gameplay and not sets, etc.).

I am adamant to defend Streak because I do not view it as the root cause of the current Sorc problem people face in PvP, but rather the catalyst that is being wrongly put under the spotlight. My reasoning is as followed:

A car can only go as fast as its engine allows. You can install the most advanced tyres available, but if your engine only makes 200 bhp, you are not going anywhere in a race. In this metaphor, the "engine" would be Sorc's offensive/defensive stats and abilities, and the "tyres" would be Streak. Prior to U50, there were patches where Sorc was completely dogwater in PvP despite Streak being largely unchanged. As soon as the class received major updates, such as Hardened Ward and the recent mastery passives, Streak really started to shine. However, is it really Streak overperforming, or is it the aforementioned buffs that provided the engine to let Streak do its work?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bombard is a relatively short range skill in a cone (meaning the user still has to be relatively close and the skill itself or 'bow kit' is not guaranteeing that user's safety should issues arise) that is generally more avoidable in actual combat than Streak's rectangle that stuns through block (cannot be blocked) and roll dodge (cannot be roll dodged); Bombard also has a substantial cost of typically over 3k stam that is considerable for the majority of classes outside of Sorc and DK, PTS (which we can assume may change in the future, but again, streak cost is currently a non-issue for any remotely competent player on PTS). Lastly, immobilizes have an internal CD of 3 seconds after any roll, can be purged/purified, and snare immunity as a whole is far more widely available (understandably) than CC immunity.

Respectfully, this is untrue. Without any cost reduction passives considered, Bombard has a base cost of 3240 stamina compared to Streak which sits at 3780:

Bombard has an effective range of 20m in a conal radius, while Streak teleports your character forward across a 6x15m distance. Bombard's base tooltip is also ~300 higher than that of Streak, and can be increased further with Bow's 25% damage done buff and Storm Calling's 5% physical damage modifier.

Since medium armor passives are vastly superior to those of light armor, Bombard's cost can be further reduced to below 3k, with Sorc getting it as low as 1.9k. Below is a screenshot of my Bombard's cost in 5 medium armor and on Sorc:

For a ranged AoE pseudo spammable that also applies an uncapped AoE immobilization, that cost is lower than many single target spammables in the game. With CoE and a decent stamina pool, Bombard functions as a much better soft CC than Streak, especially with Streak possessing a ramping cost while Bombard does not.

The immobilization counters you stated are generally not sufficient for the following reasons:

1) Internal CD after any roll

Compared to CC immunity which has a 7s duration after breaking free and 15s with an Immovability potion, immobilization immunity is just not long enough. Within that 7s window and accounting for a roll dodge, you would still have been rooted twice. To completely nullify Bombard's soft CC potential, you would have to either use RaT/Deceptive Predator/Fleetstep Wings or any equivalent skill every 4-6s or wear Snowtreaders, both of which cost precious GCDs, resources, or a mythic option.

2) Can be purged/purify

It does not matter. As soon as the root effect gets removed, the Bombard user will have immediately applied another one right after because cleansing abilities do not provide immobilization immunity. Since Bombard has a cost comparable to many spammables, purifying this CC is completely pointless.

3) Root immunity availability

This is one point I would somewhat agree with you, but as mentioned above, I could also argue that Bombard's overwhelming effectiveness indirectly forces a receiving player to waste GCDs countering it. It does not appear to be enough, but that extra GCD absolutely matters because to properly counter Bombard, you would have to cast your root immunity right as you get within the 20 range due to the 4-6s effect duration. Any attempt to pre-cast before that would waste at least another GCD or roll dodge.

For most players though, Bombard is extremely more oppressive to fight against because, quite frankly, a lot of them do not slot a snare immunity lol.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Also, I'd like to acknowledge the argument and comparison to 'Bombard' is a very clear example of a 'Strawman'.

It is not. Bombard is categorized as a CC ability, so it falls within scope. I merely brought this up because I have simultaneously used Streak and Bombard on my CC-bot Sorc for group PvP, and I discovered that Bombard serves a much better role as a CC disruptor/peeler than Streak.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I think removing the AoE cap would actually be a more appropriate start to adjusting its problematic behavior but if we are truly set on 'enabling gap closers'/chasing to be a proper counter to streak, then streak should really only stun on the landing location and not in the beginning or middle of the streak itself.

I disagree. Adjusting Streak's CC mechanic to only stun on the landing location would absolutely kill this ability, as you would have to position your character exactly 15m away from your target. That is an impossible thing to do in a real fight when melee players are constantly gap closing onto you. To stun people with this version of Streak mid fight, you would have to Streak away twice to create enough distance, then turn around and Streak at someone again...It is absurd to think about lol. The only 2 scenarios where it could reliably work would be initiating a fight beyond the 15m range or chasing down a fleeing target, both of which are short-lived occasions and nonrepresentative of a real ongoing fight.

'Gish Galloping'; multiple answers and context for many of your 'gotchya' replies are held within the actual quotes you're replying to if you care to analyze them.

Regardless, believing that sorc streak needs absolutely no changes after a top down view of the skill and the current state of sorc, even post nerfs, is a bias like no other. You've already self-identified as a 'sorc main' and it's very clear based on how adamant your "rebuttals" are that this standing has a direct impact on your responses here.

You also contradict yourself in that 'streak has no counters' and then have multiple times needed to take a stand which shows it, in fact, does not have actual and real counters in the context, just as many others have already stated.

The only other arguments you can fabricate seem to be ones talking about Bombard 0.o.

Instead of arguing with me on the forums, you should take sometime to play a Bombard build. You'll understand.

When I see you speak with others on Streak, your arguments kind of remind of those Russian nesting dolls:

You finish up with one and another comes out. Sure, it could be 'Bombard', or maybe now we're referring to what 'Shade' is capable of when referencing streak.

The goal is to constantly move the goal post and be as dishonest as he can about his opinions.

We all know Streak is the strongest CC in the game. The fact that he tried to argue that bombard was stronger is the most obvious case thus far that he is lying.

Edit: I would bet the usage stats for bombard in cyrodiil are less than 1%.

I have never seen bombard used even once, and even if it were used it was not noticeable and nowhere near as powerful as Streak. In no universe would I compare a root to a unblockable and undodgeable stun. I rather be rooted than stunned every time, and I am sure even the most "experienced" PvPers think the same.

I haven't seen it in a ball, haven't seen it on the breach, etc. I haven't even seen ball groups run it. And as for the value of a root or even immobilize or both in the context of PvP -- aren't they useless once someone locates the roll button? And they don't prevent you from healing or doing damage or gap closing a running opponent like Streak does when it CCs.

Even if it was impactful, it can be easily cleared off by various actions that can be taken, even wearing a cleansing set will clear off snare/immobilize before any other effect. And if someone is really spamming bombard to compete with that cleansing effect, then you can just gap close and kill them because they won't be pushing out the burst damage anyone should be fearing as long as they have to keep using bombard.

Again, this is counter to Streak. Though there are effects and methods to automatically clear a CC put on you, you don't get CC immunity. So the Streak-user can just Streak again anyway and you're back to being under CC and under CC you don't get the ability to heal, gap close, etc. that you do under an immobilize , snare , or other root.

That alone makes it completely distinguishable from Bombard and that's before we talk about how it : does damage and can proc other sets and effects that can CC/snare with the right build, some automated and working in a recursive fashion <-- oops isn't this the type of stuff that ZOS gets the nerf hammer out for.

Ah, wait we are talking too much. Let's leave it at that.

HelloPlayers · August 25

I get that Sorcs are supposed to be mobile, but why does the mobility skill also have a CC attached to it? It feels like you can’t really disengage from someone using it because they can just Streak through you, stun you, gain distance, and do it again.

And it works both ways. If they want to leave, they can just chain Streaks until you can’t catch them. If they want to chase you, they can stick to you just as easily.

Maybe I’m missing something, but as a newer PvPer it feels like the mobility itself is already doing enough without also being a CC.

hoangdz · August 25

Luneca wrote: »

I have never seen bombard used even once

I haven't seen it in a ball, haven't seen it on the breach, etc. I haven't even seen ball groups run it. And as for the value of a root or even immobilize or both in the context of PvP -- aren't they useless once someone locates the roll button? And they don't prevent you from healing or doing damage or gap closing a running opponent like Streak does when it CCs.

CannedChicken wrote: »

The goal is to constantly move the goal post and be as dishonest as he can about his opinions.

We all know Streak is the strongest CC in the game. The fact that he tried to argue that bombard was stronger is the most obvious case thus far that he is lying.

Edit: I would bet the usage stats for bombard in cyrodiil are less than 1%.

ceruulean wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

Crazy that a "top-tier player" is bringing up Bombard as a comparable alternative. I have never seen someone use Bombard in PvP since 2018.

Luneca, you only fire siege, so I do not think you would know whether bombard is good or bad.

CannedChicken, I do not know if you are part of Adrestia or not, but if you are, you should know how strong the skill is in a group setting, and pretending you didn't would be very disingenuous. If you are not part of Adrestia and have never done organized group play, then please slot bombard, join an organized group, and PvP. I really cannot be bothered re-explaining it to you.

Ceruulean, there were multiple threads between 2019 and 2020 asking for bombard nerfs because it was oppressive in high level PvP, particularly in BGs and in Cyrodiil. A simple forum search will show. Ask anyone who has done serious PvP around that time and they will tell you how overperforming bombard was. If you never saw it post 2018, it simply means you did not participate in PvP regularly enough.

Honestly, this entire thread is the same 4-5 people agreeing with each other. Outsiders lurking in the thread know when someone makes an unbiased stance, and it is definitely not you guys. I have laid my case very clearly, conceded when a good point was made, and accounted for balance at the macro level. I really cannot be bothered arguing versus people who look at 1 skill in isolation and repeat the same arguments. I would not be surprised though if the people who wanted it nerfed in this thread are also those who abuse other broken mechanics and got annoyed that Streak kept countering their playstyle. Anyways, this will be my last comment, and whether ZOS nerfs it or not, I do not really care anymore lol.

MeridiaFavorsMe · August 25

ceruulean wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I disagree. Adjusting Streak's CC mechanic to only stun on the landing location would absolutely kill this ability, as you would have to position your character exactly 15m away from your target. That is an impossible thing to do in a real fight when melee players are constantly gap closing onto you. To stun people with this version of Streak mid fight, you would have to Streak away twice to create enough distance, then turn around and Streak at someone again...It is absurd to think about lol. The only 2 scenarios where it could reliably work would be initiating a fight beyond the 15m range or chasing down a fleeing target, both of which are short-lived occasions and nonrepresentative of a real ongoing fight.

You have rune cage CC. It means you have to make a tradeoff instead of getting everything you want in one tool. Of course ZOS has bloated skills over the years so who knows. Tons of arcanists and sorcerers love their teleports with CDs in Vengeance. Arcanist teleport doesn't even stun but people slot it anyway. I wonder why having unbridled mobility is soooo valuable.

Also I don't think streak was always undodgable and unblockable. I don't remember it being that oppressive in 2018.

I agree with the Rune Cage point. Sorc already has an unblockable CC. If Streak's CC had meaningful counterplay, you could use Rune Cage when you specifically need an unblockable stun.

That's called a tradeoff. You shouldn't get the strongest mobility, massive AoE, damage, and an unblockable/undodgeable CC all in one ability with no meaningful downside.

The fact that people willingly slot mobility skills that don't even stun should tell you how valuable that mobility already is. Streak doesn't need to give you everything at once.

Luneca · August 25

hoangdz wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

I have never seen bombard used even once

I haven't seen it in a ball, haven't seen it on the breach, etc. I haven't even seen ball groups run it. And as for the value of a root or even immobilize or both in the context of PvP -- aren't they useless once someone locates the roll button? And they don't prevent you from healing or doing damage or gap closing a running opponent like Streak does when it CCs.

CannedChicken wrote: »

The goal is to constantly move the goal post and be as dishonest as he can about his opinions.

We all know Streak is the strongest CC in the game. The fact that he tried to argue that bombard was stronger is the most obvious case thus far that he is lying.

Edit: I would bet the usage stats for bombard in cyrodiil are less than 1%.

ceruulean wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Bombard isn't remotely comparable to Streak.

Crazy that a "top-tier player" is bringing up Bombard as a comparable alternative. I have never seen someone use Bombard in PvP since 2018.

Luneca, you only fire siege, so I do not think you would know whether bombard is good or bad.

CannedChicken, I do not know if you are part of Adrestia or not, but if you are, you should know how strong the skill is in a group setting, and pretending you didn't would be very disingenuous. If you are not part of Adrestia and have never done organized group play, then please slot bombard, join an organized group, and PvP. I really cannot be bothered re-explaining it to you.

Ceruulean, there were multiple threads between 2019 and 2020 asking for bombard nerfs because it was oppressive in high level PvP, particularly in BGs and in Cyrodiil. A simple forum search will show. Ask anyone who has done serious PvP around that time and they will tell you how overperforming bombard was. If you never saw it post 2018, it simply means you did not participate in PvP regularly enough.

Honestly, this entire thread is the same 4-5 people agreeing with each other. Outsiders lurking in the thread know when someone makes an unbiased stance, and it is definitely not you guys. I have laid my case very clearly, conceded when a good point was made, and accounted for balance at the macro level. I really cannot be bothered arguing versus people who look at 1 skill in isolation and repeat the same arguments. I would not be surprised though if the people who wanted it nerfed in this thread are also those who abuse other broken mechanics and got annoyed that Streak kept countering their playstyle. Anyways, this will be my last comment, and whether ZOS nerfs it or not, I do not really care anymore lol.

Reality doesn't change whether I do or do not fire siege. Also, I'd fire siege even in someone's face point blank with no safety.

I seriously doubt anyone was complaining in 2019-2020 when immobilizations had immunity added thanks to all the supposed "pro" 1vX players that needed the system changed to accommodate their awesome talent. I remember how much they cried on the forums about immobilizations, until ZOS added immunity to them which was not present until the patch linked below.

They sure showed everyone how skilled they were by getting the things that stopped them from having an easy time farming nerfed. Oh and a lot of them were stam sorcs.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6062156/#Comment_6062156

^ Patch notes for anyone wondering. Guess who really advocated for that change. Hint: it wasn't me, since I wasn't on the forums to oppose it.

Also you failed to prove that Bombard is stronger than Streak, even in a group setting. Spoiler: it's not and never will be. Find even one ball group that will agree that isn't full of "1vXers" that streak away once they get threatened and need this skill to crutch on.

But do continue. I've said it before on the forums, I don't need to argue with anyone here, I'll just prove it and send that proof to where it matters: ZOS. Then they will adjust it if they see fit.

Personally, I think the damage on the skill needs to also go because of its ability to interact with other systems in addition to the already overloaded AoE unblockable and undodgeable stun. Blazing shards got nerfed for less and we can find other examples too if we want to go down that route.

[snip]

Teeba_Shei · August 25

ceruulean wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This is a misleading argument. Some of these counterplays are limited to Streak and short-ranged CCs. The movement-based counterplays mentioned by React, such as:

- Backward momentum jumping
- Moving sideways

do not work against targeted CCs like Javelin, Rune Cage, and Fossilize. If you tried to perform these maneuvers, you would 100% get CCed unless you were already out of range,

Lol you can avoid those skills with forward movement through someone (melee vs melee) and anti-mirror sideways strafing by making yourself harder to target by the opponent. It's a little bit different since good movement will prevent people from predicting and casting the skill in the first place, but any way to mess up their tempo is good. Or hide behind a BOX and tree hug. Petrify you can outrange with backwards movement. Streak is soooo easily countered with the same strats used to counter other CC. Try again.

Exactly. The fact that you're able to list multiple actual ways to counter the other CCs is precisely the point.

You can outrange Petrify, use terrain, or break line of sight. There are plenty of ways to counter other CCs that simply don't exist for Streak.

Funny enough, the person defending Streak here claimed Petrify was just as good as Streak, but then said Rune Cage is garbage. Rune Cage is essentially a 1-to-1 comparison in terms of how the CC works, except Rune Cage can be cast from range. Rune Cage is arguably stronger than Fossilize. Just use Rune Cage.

Now do the same thing for Streak. What is the actual defensive interaction when it connects? You can't block it, you can't dodge it, and it happens instantly. That's the difference.

CannedChicken · August 26

If we're looking for the closest comparison to Streak, it's Fear. It's unblockable, undodgeable, and has no target cap—but look at the tradeoffs.

Fear has a 6m radius, while Streak has a larger area with its 6×15m rectangle and also gives you 15m of mobility and damage at the same time. Fear requires you to actually get into melee range to use it effectively.

If you're using something like Ambush to quickly get into position for Fear, you're also dedicating another bar slot to make that setup practical. And unlike Streak, Fear doesn't give you an instant escape after applying the CC. You're committing to being in melee range.

That's what makes Streak so ridiculous. The CC isn't just attached to mobility—it is attached to exceptional mobility. You can travel 15m, damage everyone in the area, stun multiple targets without a cap, and immediately create distance after landing the CC.

Personofsecrets · August 26

CannedChicken wrote: »

That's what makes Streak so ridiculous. The CC isn't just attached to mobility—it is attached to exceptional mobility. You can travel 15m, damage everyone in the area, stun multiple targets without a cap, and immediately create distance after landing the CC.

And then it takes the impacted players time to, not just break free, but to turn around and find the streak caster while they are getting wailed on.

Turtle_Bot · August 26

The only nerf that can be argued for streak is a slight cost increase to account for CoE extra sustain. Anything else is pure strawman/disingenuous/biased/uninformed arguments from those calling for streak nerfs. Lets show the examples shall we?

1. Looking at the ability in complete isolation - strawman because it completely (and deliberately) ignores the rest of Sorcerers kit that revolves around cast times, hidden cast animations/delays and other similar draw backs that REQUIRE being able to reliably make that distance to use them.
If Streak were to be nerfed, every single cast time, and similar draw back would need to be removed from every ability across sorcs kit:
- no more cast time on frags
- no more cast time on dark deal
- no more animation delay on fury/flood
- burst heal such as matriarch no longer killable, or requiring 2 bars, or 2GCD summon duration, etc.
Not to mention the rest of Sorcs kit will need a complete overhaul of adding buffs, debuffs and secondary effects that every other class has been given over the years:
- breach added to the class kit
- proper synergies with themed damage types and status effects beyond just 5% increase
- shields mechanically buffed, made more durable and longer lasting
- in-class heal over time that doesn't require anything outside of casting it
- sustain over time given to the class
- damage made reliable (unblockable, undodgable or cannot be cleansed)
- a proper execute with real damage + scaling that is reliable

2. Inaccurate comparisons - Comparing apples to oranges, Streak and javelin are not comparable because they are functionally completely different skills (javelin is plars single target CC, streak is sorcs unique defining ability). Making such arguments as a reason to nerf Streak is just straight up disingenuous and shows a complete lack of understanding (or deliberate obfuscation) of these abilities.

3. False equivalences - Rune Cage is not Javelin OR fossilize, not even remotely close and anyone that think they are has never tried to use Rune Cage before. It has the most obvious visual tells of any CC in the game outside of meteor (which is also a very high damage ultimate that can be blocked but not dodged), it has zero secondary effects (no immobilize, or heal, or scaling or armor pierce), and it requires the stun to last the full duration to deal its damage (break free early means it doesn't deal any damage). Fossilize and javelin have NONE of these downsides and fossilize is so much stronger than Rune Cage, that multiple addons were developed for it, specifically because there was so little counterplay to it due to it's tells being so muted and lost in the overspam of flame visuals. No such addon was ever developed for Rune Cage despite Rune Cage existing for over a decade now.

4. Ignorance of other classes unique factors - Sorc has Rune Cage (single target stun) and streak (unique factor for the class mobility + strong disruption), templar has javelin (single target stun) and cleansing ritual (unique factor for the class that is massive AoE HoT + multi cleanse that also heals and cleanses allies via synergy), DK has fossilize (single target stun) and corrosive (unique factor for the class that heavily limits incoming damage and ignores resistances + strong AoE DoT). To not include that these other classes have their own unique and overpowered factors on top of their single target stuns is just willful ignorance and blatant bias. Maybe we should also call for corrosive to not ignore armor anymore, or cleanse to not heal anymore as well while we are removing the stun from streak. Bring all classes unique aspect abilities down to just 1 thing and that's it.

5. Sorc already has Rune Cage - A non-argument because the amount of things that would need to be fixed, changed and/or buffed on Rune Cage to make it an ability even worth considering would make all of your heads spin. There's a reason Streak (or any non-class CC such as Dazing Soul/Dazing Knife/Shield Throw) is chosen over Rune Cage, it is just that bad of an ability.

6. Mobility should already be enough - uninformed or deliberately misleading, since it used to be before mobility was given out like candy via generic abilities such as Race against Time (RaT), Mist Form (another teleport that comes with an AoE DoT/HoT or 2 major buffs + better projectile block than Ball of Lightning), scribing skills for both expedition buffs, vault as a backwards streak that can also immobilize + snare + damage/heal all in 1, swift traits, champion points and medium armor bonuses.
If we are going to make streak just a mobility tool, then all of the above mobility options would need to be removed or massively nerfed alongside it if we are not going to also massively buff and remove the downsides from every other aspect of Sorcs kit.

7. Ignorance of bar space - there's a reason Streak is so "overloaded" because 99% of the rest of Sorcs kit is so one dimensional and anything that isn't, has a cast time, a condition or other significant downside/drawback to account for having an additional effect.
Curse just deals damage
shields are just temporary health buffers (or are too weak)
fury is just an execute
rune cage is just a stun
pets have long summon cast times, take up 2 bar slots each, have no meaningful damage and can be killed
dark deal has a cast time
frags has a cast time so it can have a proc and singular cost reduction
weapon needs a light attack to do anything to have a tiny flat armor reduction (that isn't even minor breach)
surge requires dealing critical damage just to add a "HoT' to the brutality buff
overload doesn't interact with "ultimate" sets and prevents ult gen while active just for the sustain bonus, otherwise it's just damage and it's one of the buggiest ultimates in the game
blood magic requires being at full health to get the bonus mag/stam
expert mage requires slotting class abilities to get less than a line of weapon/spell damage per one slotted (most other classes and FG get more per slotted and have better abilities to actually slot)
most summoning passives require using the pets, if not entirely then to get the full value
persistence is completely counter intuitive to Sorcs entire design of avoiding damage
exploiter is just crit chance (hemorrhage also gives damage and is on a infinitely stronger line with better abilities/passives)

The only other ability (well morph) Sorc has that is even remotely modern in function/design is Hurricane, granting a major buff (resolve), a minor buff (expedition) and a self AoE DoT (that's actually practical). Boundless would be here too if it's radius wasn't so small and it's tick rate wasn't so slow making it completely impractical (to the point that chudan (base game monster set over a decade old now) is just straight up better for magsorc than the Sorcs own mag cost armor buff despite boundless having 2 additional effects over chudan).

[snip]

There's a reason the most common "problem" Sorc builds are weapon builds using/stacking the latest proc sets or non-class systems/abilities.

For anyone that doesn't believe me how bad the rest of the kit is, go ahead and make a sorc and try to play it without Streak and without any of the non-class crutches that have been carrying it for years now. Class abilities only and no Streak, and report back to us on just how "OP" the rest of the kit is that it doesn't need streak to carry it. [snip]

Oblivion_Protocol · August 26

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

tl;dr

We’re talking about a single skill in a video game, and you presented a whole closing argument in a murder trial. You and hoangdz are in here like someone is holding a gun to your heads and threatening to pull the trigger if Streak gets nerfed.

Which, by the way, it absolutely is getting nerfed. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually ZOS is going to “take a closer look at it”, and your favorite skill is getting touched.

Luneca · August 26

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

tl;dr

We’re talking about a single skill in a video game, and you presented a whole closing argument in a murder trial. You and hoangdz are in here like someone is holding a gun to your heads and threatening to pull the trigger if Streak gets nerfed.

Which, by the way, it absolutely is getting nerfed. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually ZOS is going to “take a closer look at it”, and your favorite skill is getting touched.

We all know it's coming and it will have to be more than a cost increase. The ability to do damage was singled out by me as in issue for a reason. If they really want, I can show and tell exactly what I mean by "interact with other systems" and how it pushes it into the territory of being too powerful.

What is the purpose of the skill anyway? I didn't understand when they buffed it (the damage part) what the purpose was in Sorc's kit besides being an overloaded skill.

For a defensive mechanic, it's overloaded and provides offense and even damage. And it's not like Streak is the primary defensive mechanic of the class like Cloak is with NB, or HoTs with Templar. The primary defense that most Sorcs use comes from shielding -- you know, the thing that's been repeatedly buffed to the point that it's a problem on the live server.

Every other class literally has one defensive feature, then makes up for the hole with offensive-only capability. Templar purge, NB cloaks, Necros purge and can tank, Arcanists shield, DKs can heal and tank.

Then we get to Sorc: Shielding, Streak (AoE CC, AoE damage, essentially same function as Cloak, can also be used in conjunction with invis potion and it's i-frame unlike cloak: seriously try an invis pot, it makes this skill god mode stop lying Sorc players you know its true), Speed.

^ This is looking at it before we talk about "system interactions" but if anyone wants to play we can go there and get the examples I am talking about that become problematic and there's lots of them.

Just ask ZOS, why did wings stop doing damage? You know before it was changed to a CC, I thought the old Dragonfire Wings was extremely out of line. No one really used the skill, but I made sure to use it and run around at max speed. And it would shoot a fireball out and snare enemies, while reducing damage allowing me to catch anyone that tried to escape. I used it to ranged CC with automation and kill sorcs. In a way that functionality is something that was deleted from DK with the changes to Wings, which is why I say it lost power in some contexts in exchange for the burst damage it has. The old Inferno also provided extra ranged pressure and it was possible to have attack and defense in the same from from two skills on the bar that already provided other benefits.

Now why is this important? Because even that defensive skill providing a lesser option than a free CC tacked on to a defensive skill, and requiring the opponent to first attack was problematic and could be used to oppress an opponent into a box they could not escape. And it also had interactions that were problematic when you started adding proc sets.

Take for instance burning spell weave. No one cares about this set because it's "trash" in PvP after they removed stacking burn instances. But that Dragon Fire Scales skill would proc it. And while it seemed like an interaction that didn't matter, it provided addional offense while being on the defense. And that burning proc doing damage like that allowed other proc sets to be usable and add offensive pressue that otherwise would not be possible without the skill existing in the state that it did.

Streak is actually no different than that, except looking at the entire class kit and it's budget. It's actually WORSE. Because not only can you get offensive procs to work with it, but you can get defensive interaction thanks to Sorc's SURGE skill.

Even in that simple context above where DK could be made to get power just from an offensive tick tacked on to a defensive skill, the type of procs and automated offense it added was an issue. But Streak takes it to another level when you have SURGE on in addition to that, and now the class masteries as well on top of that - which is why I called them bad design.

On Streak not only can you choose to get automated offense, but also defense. Because when it does damage and heals, the heal from SURGE counts as a DIRECT HEAL which is a requirement to proccing many sets and other defensive interactions that are balanced outside of the context of Streak, but not in conjunciton with it.

And that has actually been a secret source of power for a long time in this game and we can make the argument that even Surge needs an adjustment and change from a direct heal, but right now we're looking at Streak. We can get to the rest of the entire Sorc kit and how it interacts if people like Turtle and others keep talking nonsense.

Don't worry, I am sure it will be nerfed. Because what I posted is literally just the start. And see how long it is already? I don't want to type 10-12 forum posts on Sorc and get it nerfed into the ground. I think a reasonable compromise is simply adjusting an already overloaded skill and like I said before, I don't need to bother arguing with the forum users.

I can always simply show exactly what I mean. On live that damage portion of Steak is being used to proc a lot more shielding that I would have access to otherwise and thanks to sustain being an absolute joke and how SURGE works. You know I am running around with lots of automation in my build due to sets on top of how powerful sorc is already. And there is no real tradeoff, plus I get to keep the power of Streak as an escape tool that is arguable better than cloak and always has been, esp. since I can just use an invis pot?

[snip] No way. Sorc right now is the king of automated builds. That people aren't doing it often enough for the masses to think it's a problem doesn't discount reality, it just means they don't know any better YET.

But we can keep discussing so that they do and then ZOS has no choice but to get the nerf hammer out. Which is actually NOT what I want, as crazy as that sounds. And there is merit in saying the mastery is part of the problem because these builds would only be 1/2 as possible when you have to run a sustain set, though arguably still too powerful in the context of a smaller battle. And we have not even gotten to the power acessible in a group context, but we don't need to right now.

Turtle_Bot · August 26

@Luneca @Oblivion_Protocol if you truly feel as though Sorc is so overtuned as to not need streak, go ahead and prove it to us then.

Build a Sorc, no Streak and no clutching on non-class systems/skills (remember ZOS balances the classes (mostly) around in-class, interactions, trade-offs and designs) and prove to everyone that Sorc doesn't need Streak.

Go ahead and prove that shields are enough on their own, speed is more than enough without streak, that the CC on Rune Cage is good enough to not need one on Streak. You guys are the ones here making these claims, so go ahead and back them up with proof for the rest of us to see.

Luneca · August 26

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

@Luneca @Oblivion_Protocol if you truly feel as though Sorc is so overtuned as to not need streak, go ahead and prove it to us then.

Build a Sorc, no Streak and no clutching on non-class systems/skills (remember ZOS balances the classes (mostly) around in-class, interactions, trade-offs and designs) and prove to everyone that Sorc doesn't need Streak.

Go ahead and prove that shields are enough on their own, speed is more than enough without streak, that the CC on Rune Cage is good enough to not need one on Streak. You guys are the ones here making these claims, so go ahead and back them up with proof for the rest of us to see.

[snip] And that's to put the class in it's worst light so we can pretend the issues don't exist? The class isn't in a vacuum and has the option to gain power elsewhere through sets and even CP options, before we even get to mythics and other skill interactions -- that's exactly the point and crux of what the issue is.

You can reduce the significance of any class interaction that's been nerfed over the years by saying well if you just look only at the class , then... Problem is that we cannot just look only at the class when the game is a system.

PvP is a system and I advocate for balancing around the system and not the class or individual balance because all that matters at the end of the day is how something performs in the system and not on its own.

Take for instance Living Dark a few years ago when it was introduced. I left feedback that down the line it would become a problem because it was possible to get too much healing even on the PTS. ZOS ignored it and listened to forumplars and the result was that Templar got cut over and over again to preserve the existence of the skill, and then it got nerfed anyway once ZOS saw evidence of a build healing over 8000+ with Living Dark ticks.

What's poorly designed is already apparent from the start, even before interactions start to exist that start to justify a nerf down the line. In fact, if you saw the post I made in the Class and Abilities feedback in the PTS section you'd see that I said I cannot understand how people don't know what will get nerfed because it's obvious at this point what is out of line .

That's not an observation made from a biased viewpoint like your defense of Streak and Hoangz, it's an observation made from an objective viewpoint that you and no one else simply cannot refute:

Streak: AoE CC, Unblockable, Undodgeable, Large Area, Does Damage, and can move you out of range. Additionally, doing damage means that it can proc offensive sets,. Thanks to surge it also means it can proc defensive sets and CP. So we have a skill that literally can be used to escape or gain offensive and defensive advantage through automation. What other skill is like that in the game? And historically, when has that been allowed beyond Streak (which is not in it's original state, becauseIt got buffed multiple times).

In fact, I don't even think it's possible to CC on activation anymore because ZOS looks like they did the same thing with leap and other skills that close distance and put a small window of CC immunity on it. If that's true the skill is even more OP than I thought. I honestly have NEVER been CC'd on activation with this skill since the leap changes and I need to see if that was documented as a change or not.

^ Not a single one of you supporters can address how that isn't overloaded and a problem looking at it from a systemic viewpoint rather than in a vacuum. Even in the context of only the sorc class it's an issue. You just don't believe it because you don't want to get an adjustement.

Can you explain to the class exactly why it needs to do damage anyway? Your argument of bar space falls shorts when a skill can do more than any other skill in the game, even ults. Yeah, Streak is literally comparable to what an ult can do.

If someone put a sword to my face on siege and I have only the option of Streak or Undo, guess what I am doing? I'm Streaking. And it's precisely because of the above.

Managing bar space is an issue for everyone in the game -- it's part of what makes ESO , ESO. To pretend it's harder on Sorc than anyone else is really mind-boggling and has been a moot argument for a long time on the forums, esp. when Sorcs got salty that Overload was changed.

If a class isn't having bar space issues, it's because the options suck, unlike Sorc where every option is an advantageous one. But keep going and pretending that Sorcs are a victimized class. I am sure someone will agree, just not me.

Luneca · August 26

[edited to remove quote]

[snip]

In fact with the masteries it already has more than everyone else, which is part of why this topic came up in the first place. Now with adjustments to other classes, even cloak no one can defend the state Streak is in right now. Except of course if they need it as a crutch.

I play Sorc and have 4 of them with differing builds on them, and I've used them in all content. At no point did I think back then or even now that Streak in the state that it is was necessary.

But I get it, those that lack the ability to actively defend using roll and block like every other class has to do need a crutch that they can pretend is balanced to gain an advantage.

You've said that only a cost increase is the only option to modifying Streak. I disagree and think the damage should be uncoupled and that's because of the bold above: the skill is overloaded on its own, then gains additional systemic interactions that are problematic.

[snip]

If you can't actually use Sorc without that skill, then it's OP. I've already stated that when a singular item or funcitionalty completely makes or breaks something in a system it's OP . You've just admitted that for Streak.

[snip]

Turtle_Bot · August 26

[snip]

People similar to OP, that constantly cry about Sorc without providing any evidence or actual pain points beyond "X is OP", continuously cried, bashed and baited those threads, claiming that the nerfs I proposed were never enough despite the fact I put forward multiple changes on those threads that have been asked for on this very thread, and that was back when Sorc was actually crafting bench tier (not my ratings, every top PvPer was saying the class was borderline unplayable at the time) and needed actual buffs.

[snip]

CannedChicken · August 26

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only nerf that can be argued for streak is a slight cost increase to account for CoE extra sustain. Anything else is pure strawman/disingenuous/biased/uninformed arguments from those calling for streak nerfs. Lets show the examples shall we?

1. Looking at the ability in complete isolation - strawman because it completely (and deliberately) ignores the rest of Sorcerers kit that revolves around cast times, hidden cast animations/delays and other similar draw backs that REQUIRE being able to reliably make that distance to use them.
If Streak were to be nerfed, every single cast time, and similar draw back would need to be removed from every ability across sorcs kit:
- no more cast time on frags
- no more cast time on dark deal
- no more animation delay on fury/flood
- burst heal such as matriarch no longer killable, or requiring 2 bars, or 2GCD summon duration, etc.
Not to mention the rest of Sorcs kit will need a complete overhaul of adding buffs, debuffs and secondary effects that every other class has been given over the years:
- breach added to the class kit
- proper synergies with themed damage types and status effects beyond just 5% increase
- shields mechanically buffed, made more durable and longer lasting
- in-class heal over time that doesn't require anything outside of casting it
- sustain over time given to the class
- damage made reliable (unblockable, undodgable or cannot be cleansed)
- a proper execute with real damage + scaling that is reliable

2. Inaccurate comparisons - Comparing apples to oranges, Streak and javelin are not comparable because they are functionally completely different skills (javelin is plars single target CC, streak is sorcs unique defining ability). Making such arguments as a reason to nerf Streak is just straight up disingenuous and shows a complete lack of understanding (or deliberate obfuscation) of these abilities.

3. False equivalences - Rune Cage is not Javelin OR fossilize, not even remotely close and anyone that think they are has never tried to use Rune Cage before. It has the most obvious visual tells of any CC in the game outside of meteor (which is also a very high damage ultimate that can be blocked but not dodged), it has zero secondary effects (no immobilize, or heal, or scaling or armor pierce), and it requires the stun to last the full duration to deal its damage (break free early means it doesn't deal any damage). Fossilize and javelin have NONE of these downsides and fossilize is so much stronger than Rune Cage, that multiple addons were developed for it, specifically because there was so little counterplay to it due to it's tells being so muted and lost in the overspam of flame visuals. No such addon was ever developed for Rune Cage despite Rune Cage existing for over a decade now.

4. Ignorance of other classes unique factors - Sorc has Rune Cage (single target stun) and streak (unique factor for the class mobility + strong disruption), templar has javelin (single target stun) and cleansing ritual (unique factor for the class that is massive AoE HoT + multi cleanse that also heals and cleanses allies via synergy), DK has fossilize (single target stun) and corrosive (unique factor for the class that heavily limits incoming damage and ignores resistances + strong AoE DoT). To not include that these other classes have their own unique and overpowered factors on top of their single target stuns is just willful ignorance and blatant bias. Maybe we should also call for corrosive to not ignore armor anymore, or cleanse to not heal anymore as well while we are removing the stun from streak. Bring all classes unique aspect abilities down to just 1 thing and that's it.

5. Sorc already has Rune Cage - A non-argument because the amount of things that would need to be fixed, changed and/or buffed on Rune Cage to make it an ability even worth considering would make all of your heads spin. There's a reason Streak (or any non-class CC such as Dazing Soul/Dazing Knife/Shield Throw) is chosen over Rune Cage, it is just that bad of an ability.

6. Mobility should already be enough - uninformed or deliberately misleading, since it used to be before mobility was given out like candy via generic abilities such as Race against Time (RaT), Mist Form (another teleport that comes with an AoE DoT/HoT or 2 major buffs + better projectile block than Ball of Lightning), scribing skills for both expedition buffs, vault as a backwards streak that can also immobilize + snare + damage/heal all in 1, swift traits, champion points and medium armor bonuses.
If we are going to make streak just a mobility tool, then all of the above mobility options would need to be removed or massively nerfed alongside it if we are not going to also massively buff and remove the downsides from every other aspect of Sorcs kit.

7. Ignorance of bar space - there's a reason Streak is so "overloaded" because 99% of the rest of Sorcs kit is so one dimensional and anything that isn't, has a cast time, a condition or other significant downside/drawback to account for having an additional effect.
Curse just deals damage
shields are just temporary health buffers (or are too weak)
fury is just an execute
rune cage is just a stun
pets have long summon cast times, take up 2 bar slots each, have no meaningful damage and can be killed
dark deal has a cast time
frags has a cast time so it can have a proc and singular cost reduction
weapon needs a light attack to do anything to have a tiny flat armor reduction (that isn't even minor breach)
surge requires dealing critical damage just to add a "HoT' to the brutality buff
overload doesn't interact with "ultimate" sets and prevents ult gen while active just for the sustain bonus, otherwise it's just damage and it's one of the buggiest ultimates in the game
blood magic requires being at full health to get the bonus mag/stam
expert mage requires slotting class abilities to get less than a line of weapon/spell damage per one slotted (most other classes and FG get more per slotted and have better abilities to actually slot)
most summoning passives require using the pets, if not entirely then to get the full value
persistence is completely counter intuitive to Sorcs entire design of avoiding damage
exploiter is just crit chance (hemorrhage also gives damage and is on a infinitely stronger line with better abilities/passives)

The only other ability (well morph) Sorc has that is even remotely modern in function/design is Hurricane, granting a major buff (resolve), a minor buff (expedition) and a self AoE DoT (that's actually practical). Boundless would be here too if it's radius wasn't so small and it's tick rate wasn't so slow making it completely impractical (to the point that chudan (base game monster set over a decade old now) is just straight up better for magsorc than the Sorcs own mag cost armor buff despite boundless having 2 additional effects over chudan).

Anyone calling for Streak to get massively nerfed/changed without also accepting and calling for every (or at least majority) downside listed here to be fixed at the same time, is just being completely disingenuous, completely biased and has zero understanding of the class as a class.

There's a reason the most common "problem" Sorc builds are weapon builds using/stacking the latest proc sets or non-class systems/abilities.

For anyone that doesn't believe me how bad the rest of the kit is, go ahead and make a sorc and try to play it without Streak and without any of the non-class crutches that have been carrying it for years now. Class abilities only and no Streak, and report back to us on just how "OP" the rest of the kit is that it doesn't need streak to carry it. I bet nobody here will even bother trying this because all they ever want to do is complain about Sorc without any real understanding about the class as a whole or the reasons behind why some things have to be so strong.

I didn't originally try to compare Streak to all of these different CCs. That was your friend who is defending Streak, and I specifically pointed out that those comparisons were bad because most of those abilities are single-target while Streak is an AoE CC. On top of that, those abilities actually have counterplay. Streak doesn't.

You're also arguing against a position I never made about mobility. I don't want Streak's mobility nerfed. The argument is about the CC. I want the CC to either be blockable or, at minimum, have a target cap like virtually every other AoE CC—especially when Streak already has enormous range, a large area, instant application, and no target cap.

The original argument is extremely simple: Streak is an AoE CC with an unusually large number of advantages and essentially no direct counterplay. The fact that it happens to be attached to the strongest mobility in the game makes the overall ability even more powerful, but that doesn't mean the mobility itself is what I'm arguing should be nerfed.

So based on your post, I don't think you're actually addressing the argument being made. You're arguing about whether Streak's mobility should be nerfed and comparing it to unrelated single-target CCs, when the actual issue is why an AoE CC with this much range, area, reliability, and no direct defensive counterplay gets to have no target cap or block interaction. That's the argument you've been missing.

ceruulean · August 26

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

@Luneca @Oblivion_Protocol if you truly feel as though Sorc is so overtuned as to not need streak, go ahead and prove it to us then.

Build a Sorc, no Streak and no clutching on non-class systems/skills (remember ZOS balances the classes (mostly) around in-class, interactions, trade-offs and designs) and prove to everyone that Sorc doesn't need Streak.

Go ahead and prove that shields are enough on their own, speed is more than enough without streak, that the CC on Rune Cage is good enough to not need one on Streak. You guys are the ones here making these claims, so go ahead and back them up with proof for the rest of us to see.

https://youtu.be/fi2N3ilxuNE?is=yAyufJPAvQOQkwdL

Magsorc using Ball of Lightning morph, so streak without CC.