Four_Fingers wrote: »

Would be better to add solo arenas, but we would still get the type that think they should be able to take on groups.

I think you're conflating a lot of the conversation here.

Aside for the few random people, who I can't tell if they are rage baiting or just... yeah, no one who is trying to have a serious conversation thinks 1 person.. or even 12 uncomped people should survive against a ball group.

The conversation I'm trying to have is that... if we are all putting aside our pride, our egos, etc, there is a skill gap/ramp that is 10x harder that it used to be and that isn't healthy for the long haul of this game.

The problem isn't just healing, cc immunity, shield stacking, crazy high burst dps, it's not any of that in isolation.

It's when you combine every single one of those and wrap them up into one group it creates something thats just... what is someone to do.. what are 30 people to do?

There are some ball groups that haven't adjusted their comps, haven't tried to stay relevant for years, and they just group up and have fun - that is great - they also aren't the problem.

We are talking about the top of the top groups.. the groups that run circles endlessly for 30 minutes to the point everyone gets bored and leaves them alone.. so they go to where everyone else went.. and harasses them there. That situation is what we are trying to address..

I truly believe you could put a series of rules in place that would reduce the gap slightly.. while still allowing that group to be the top 1%. Maybe instead of farming for 30 minutes.. they only get to do it for 10 now but people feel like they can actually kill them under conditions that aren't as insane as they are right now. Right now the only way to kil the top 1% is to *** one of them out of the keep.. or hope 10 negates land + 2 bombers + 10 meat bags + 30 dps hitting them all in the tiny window they are rebuffing.

This isn't a everyone sucks so I need to suck too conversation.. it's taking the range of skill.. this super long graph that has an extreme spike in the skill/dps gap.. and compressing it ever so slightly. The bottom are still the bottom.. the top are still the top.. but the middle is closer to both ends.. if that makes sense.

This is what goes into good game design - and it's really hard to navigate (especially when the top 1% are always the loudest in the room and just scream "get good" or "skill issue" relentlessly)

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

If they are using something that is unintended to gain an advantage then that is against the rules. That is the definition of exploiting in gaming. You should be reporting them to customer service.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So where are good, organized groups supposed to play?
And no most of us don't run around the top of keeps killing people, unless you are not in our alliance.
What, we shouldn't kill enemies in our keep?

Please point to a single post where I said you shouldn't be able to kill enemies in your own keep and that organized groups shouldn't be allowed in Cyro. I'll wait... (you won't find one).

I've gone through great lengths to articulate my stance, overall game design/philosophy (this isn't something I just made up), and you're sitting here intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I'm done playing stupid with you - if you want to have an honest conversation then have it.

- xCatguy

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

If they are using something that is unintended to gain an advantage then that is against the rules. That is the definition of exploiting in gaming. You should be reporting them to customer service.

This is where the conversation always goes south.

Optimizing their builds to work together, on top of being seasoned PvPers, is not an exploit.

LadyGP wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

Such as what? I have heard about people doing this in vengeance not sure if that's what you are referring to, but I haven't seen anything happen.

I hate the default "exploiters" gripe.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

Well.. when you factor in skills giving cc immunity, pots, sets, then.. I don't know.. the fact there are 30 people constantly trying to CC someone.. they pretty much are impossible to CC.

That isn't an exploit.. thats a design decision working as intended.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

where was this said?

Divine1976 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

Such as what? I have heard about people doing this in vengeance not sure if that's what you are referring to, but I haven't seen anything happen.

I hate the default "exploiters" gripe.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

Well.. when you factor in skills giving cc immunity, pots, sets, then.. I don't know.. the fact there are 30 people constantly trying to CC someone.. they pretty much are impossible to CC.

That isn't an exploit.. thats a design decision working as intended.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

where was this said?

It wasn't but what is actually happening?

LadyGP wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

Such as what? I have heard about people doing this in vengeance not sure if that's what you are referring to, but I haven't seen anything happen.

I hate the default "exploiters" gripe.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

Well.. when you factor in skills giving cc immunity, pots, sets, then.. I don't know.. the fact there are 30 people constantly trying to CC someone.. they pretty much are impossible to CC.

That isn't an exploit.. thats a design decision working as intended.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

where was this said?

Sorry - I should have put some more context to that statement. The exploiting comment wasn't directed at you it was directed generally to zone chat complainers who scream exploiting anytime they get near a group they can't cc or kill with 3 light attacks.

The point I was making is... there are a lot of people at the bottom of the skill graph who, respectfully, their opinion.. while should be considered.. is often from a unique perspective that isn't really relevant in the grand scheme of things (theres a ton of nuance to that statement so don't hit me with well whats the problem).

- xCatGuy

Without casual players, this game is nothing. They are absolutely relevant in the scheme of things

I think people who consider themselves the top of the skill graph would be as well to remember that

Kartalin wrote: »

We get cc’d on cooldown as a ball group when we don’t have an immov pot active, especially with all the werewolves around lately.

This is actually one of the biggest issues that ungrouped players have fighting a ball group, their negates and damage aren’t necessarily sync’ed up with us being cc’d and they aren’t able to take advantage of that brief moment of weakness.

This is also part of the strength of a ball group off fighting on its own: no one is throwing ccs out willy nilly so when we push damage all our targets get cc’d together to maximize the carnage

Yup, 100% agree.

Divine1976 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Divine1976 wrote: »

The basic issue is in the title.

It is not fun for most casual players and you need the casuals in PVP for it to survive

I have watched a whole faction siege/fight a good ball group and not be able to scratch them. People talk about skill but this skill disappeared completely during the Vengeance tests

Vengeance does a good job at raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it does this so drastically that what is left over is basically a who has more players game. It isn't fun.

My point was that balls seem to rely on exploiting broken mechanics rather than skill as they would like to think.

I agree though, it isn't fun

If players are exploiting then that is something you should be reporting to customer service.

I mean they seem to exploit unintended interactions between skills etc to there own advantage

Nothing that i would see as reportable

Such as what? I have heard about people doing this in vengeance not sure if that's what you are referring to, but I haven't seen anything happen.

I hate the default "exploiters" gripe.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

Well.. when you factor in skills giving cc immunity, pots, sets, then.. I don't know.. the fact there are 30 people constantly trying to CC someone.. they pretty much are impossible to CC.

That isn't an exploit.. thats a design decision working as intended.

"I can't cc them they are exploiting".

where was this said?

Sorry - I should have put some more context to that statement. The exploiting comment wasn't directed at you it was directed generally to zone chat complainers who scream exploiting anytime they get near a group they can't cc or kill with 3 light attacks.

The point I was making is... there are a lot of people at the bottom of the skill graph who, respectfully, their opinion.. while should be considered.. is often from a unique perspective that isn't really relevant in the grand scheme of things (theres a ton of nuance to that statement so don't hit me with well whats the problem).

- xCatGuy

Without casual players, this game is nothing. They are absolutely relevant in the scheme of things

I think people who consider themselves the top of the skill graph would be as well to remember that

Agreed. Unfortunately it is the tale as old as time. Great game comes out with pvp.. sweaties take control... casuals get farmed relentlessly until they log out.. they do this for enough time and stop playing.. at a certain point there aren't enough players left to pvp against so the sweaties leave and go to the next game.

Rinse repeat. I listed about 20 games where more orless this has been a part of their downfall.

Yeah IMO the main issue for ball groups right now is the shielding. Hopefully the upcoming nerf helps some with that. Not to say that's the only issue, but it is the most problematic one at the moment.

However, I don't agree that this issue alone is what's driving the pop down in cyro. What drives people away is awful balancing decisions that takes so long to fix (as well as some performance issues). Past metas like rush of agony, plague, hrothgar, tarnished, and now dks, pulse ganking, and 100k ball group shields just isn't fun to play against. Obviously there have been broken metas in the past, but now it seems like they can take years to fix. (ex: rush of agony took 5 years to get a "nerf") Ball group pop has gone way down too, a lot of groups have quit or merged at this point. Either because of performance or a lack of casuals to farm (most likely both).

That being said I think the casual pop has dropped way more than the ball group pop. Often times when I see a ball group at a keep, they will be close to the same size as the faction they are farming, and in off hours they have even greater numbers. In most cases there are multiple groups in the area. Doesn't really help that this meta has given them the strongest defensive tools they've ever had (at least since I started pvping in 2017). So not only are they very hard to kill, the casual pop doesn't even have numbers to fight them like they did in the past, which isn't as fun for either side.

Point is a lot of these problems could have been avoided if the devs stayed on top of balancing and didn't let objectively strong metas just take over for months or years at a time, despite said metas being known. Most of these issues have actually been pointed out right here in the forums when they were still in PTS.