Have you been hit by a Streak lately?

Streak is better. DK wings are better. Oh wait those are on the two most played classes right now. How weird.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

When have we been past the point of undodgeable or unblockable stuns lol, the only one that's ever been removed was Fossilize.

Streak, NB fear, Fighter's Guild fear, Warden Charm, WW fear, and Necro fear are all still unblockable and undodgeable.

I would argue that fossilize in its current state is far more toxic than when it checked roll dodge.

Sure, before you could setup a devasting meteor/leap... but there was still room to manage and mitigate for knowledgeable players regardless of the combo.

Now you can simply fossilize (just going to call it this despite 'Shattering Rocks' yk) and assuming they don't roll, you guarantee SO many things in a legitimately unmitigable way (if the fossilize lands). The worst part is, if your opponent knows about the fossilize, you can just spam it UNTIL it lands and do that same (or burn their stam) thanks to CoF.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only issue I have with WW fear is there seems to be a bug where it ignores CC immunity, although this is highly likely a generic bug with all CC when under high server strain such as during MYM or when ball groups are present, and also the generic bug for all CC where it can sometimes be impossible to break free from, even with a full bar of stam.

Outside of that (which are more bugs rather than design issues), this is one of the aspects of refreshed WW I have no issues with.

It's not Werewolf fear specific. It's any of them. It's a bug I encounter regularly every time I play no matter which DK or Sorcerer I am fighting.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only issue I have with WW fear is there seems to be a bug where it ignores CC immunity, although this is highly likely a generic bug with all CC when under high server strain such as during MYM or when ball groups are present, and also the generic bug for all CC where it can sometimes be impossible to break free from, even with a full bar of stam.

Outside of that (which are more bugs rather than design issues), this is one of the aspects of refreshed WW I have no issues with.

I don't know about bypassing CC immunity, that could be an issue because I have noticed major input resolution issues, especially when you get a small group spamming at the same time in one concentrated area. It seems to be too much heavy lifting for the server.

But, what I do see with Fear that I don't see with any other form of CC is the unreliability or delay of break free. I took some video clips this afternoon, intentionally playing to show how Fear isn't reliably responding to break free, despite having the resource to do so.

Now this could be a similar issue to in input / server observations because there's almost always a heavy input spam associated with the Fear, but I really don't know what the cause is.

I've seen complaints about this in the past when doing some searches but it never seems to have been addressed. To be fair, I don't think it was a wide spread as it is since the WW update.

Now, this isn't to say that WW needs a nerf, I don't think that's the case, but in all truth the mechanic needs to be fixed and there's plenty of feedback over time that it's still a problem.

I disagree. (adjusting ‘fear’ to a cone solves no issues and is virtually unnecessary)

Potential latency issues don’t equate to reworking an entire CC mechanic, especially when that CC mechanic (or really any given CC mechanic) isn’t the only one that experiences similar issues with ‘latency’. If there is something server-side that could help with break free in general that should be adjusted, sure- w/e.

Anyways, here is a clip of me keeping basic buffs up and breaking free instantly every time (bashing to show that I have immediate control over my character after break free):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/pYN3EQymNX

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only issue I have with WW fear is there seems to be a bug where it ignores CC immunity, although this is highly likely a generic bug with all CC when under high server strain such as during MYM or when ball groups are present, and also the generic bug for all CC where it can sometimes be impossible to break free from, even with a full bar of stam.

Outside of that (which are more bugs rather than design issues), this is one of the aspects of refreshed WW I have no issues with.

I don't know about bypassing CC immunity, that could be an issue because I have noticed major input resolution issues, especially when you get a small group spamming at the same time in one concentrated area. It seems to be too much heavy lifting for the server.

But, what I do see with Fear that I don't see with any other form of CC is the unreliability or delay of break free. I took some video clips this afternoon, intentionally playing to show how Fear isn't reliably responding to break free, despite having the resource to do so.

Now this could be a similar issue to in input / server observations because there's almost always a heavy input spam associated with the Fear, but I really don't know what the cause is.

I've seen complaints about this in the past when doing some searches but it never seems to have been addressed. To be fair, I don't think it was a wide spread as it is since the WW update.

Now, this isn't to say that WW needs a nerf, I don't think that's the case, but in all truth the mechanic needs to be fixed and there's plenty of feedback over time that it's still a problem.

I disagree. (adjusting ‘fear’ to a cone solves no issues and is virtually unnecessary)

Potential latency issues don’t equate to reworking an entire CC mechanic, especially when that CC mechanic (or really any given CC mechanic) isn’t the only one that experiences similar issues with ‘latency’. If there is something server-side that could help with break free in general that should be adjusted, sure- w/e.

Anyways, here is a clip of me keeping basic buffs up and breaking free instantly every time (bashing to show that I have immediate control over my character after break free):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/pYN3EQymNX

If the problem with Fear is latency related then a correct test would be in an actual PvP combat environment where latency would be a factor. Sparring in an instance is far less likely to trigger a latency based problem.

Like I said, this has been an ongoing problem and it's been brought up in the past, but I think the reason people are talking about "WW Howl" now is because it's on a reworked WW, despite this having been broken for ages.

Even in your own clip, that's seemingly latency free, your time to break free was around 0.9 to 1 full second from application. I've never been stuck from a Streak or a Javelin for a full second before being able to break free.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672828/mechanic-of-the-month-unblockable-aoe-fear-with-1-second-minimum-cc/p1

I had no latency, I am near-immediately bashing after a break. I have time to heal, etc. directly after the roar. @NxJoeyD - you sit up top in BGs (the spawn) and spam overload- I don't see why you have such a deadset opinion on 'nerf fear' when you only have to worry about it every 2 minutes (when it boots you from spawn) and I can clearly break free on command in a controlled environment, as demonstrated.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only issue I have with WW fear is there seems to be a bug where it ignores CC immunity, although this is highly likely a generic bug with all CC when under high server strain such as during MYM or when ball groups are present, and also the generic bug for all CC where it can sometimes be impossible to break free from, even with a full bar of stam.

Outside of that (which are more bugs rather than design issues), this is one of the aspects of refreshed WW I have no issues with.

I don't know about bypassing CC immunity, that could be an issue because I have noticed major input resolution issues, especially when you get a small group spamming at the same time in one concentrated area. It seems to be too much heavy lifting for the server.

But, what I do see with Fear that I don't see with any other form of CC is the unreliability or delay of break free. I took some video clips this afternoon, intentionally playing to show how Fear isn't reliably responding to break free, despite having the resource to do so.

Now this could be a similar issue to in input / server observations because there's almost always a heavy input spam associated with the Fear, but I really don't know what the cause is.

I've seen complaints about this in the past when doing some searches but it never seems to have been addressed. To be fair, I don't think it was a wide spread as it is since the WW update.

Now, this isn't to say that WW needs a nerf, I don't think that's the case, but in all truth the mechanic needs to be fixed and there's plenty of feedback over time that it's still a problem.

I disagree. (adjusting ‘fear’ to a cone solves no issues and is virtually unnecessary)

Potential latency issues don’t equate to reworking an entire CC mechanic, especially when that CC mechanic (or really any given CC mechanic) isn’t the only one that experiences similar issues with ‘latency’. If there is something server-side that could help with break free in general that should be adjusted, sure- w/e.

Anyways, here is a clip of me keeping basic buffs up and breaking free instantly every time (bashing to show that I have immediate control over my character after break free):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/pYN3EQymNX

If the problem with Fear is latency related then a correct test would be in an actual PvP combat environment where latency would be a factor. Sparring in an instance is far less likely to trigger a latency based problem.

Like I said, this has been an ongoing problem and it's been brought up in the past, but I think the reason people are talking about "WW Howl" now is because it's on a reworked WW, despite this having been broken for ages.

Even in your own clip, that's seemingly latency free, your time to break free was around 0.9 to 1 full second from application. I've never been stuck from a Streak or a Javelin for a full second before being able to break free.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/672828/mechanic-of-the-month-unblockable-aoe-fear-with-1-second-minimum-cc/p1

I had no latency, I am near-immediately bashing after a break. I have time to heal, etc. directly after the roar. @NxJoeyD - you sit up top in BGs (the spawn) and spam overload- I don't see why you have such a deadset opinion on 'nerf fear' when you only have to worry about it every 2 minutes and I can clearly break free on command in a controlled environment.

That's the point. You can't argue that Fear bugs are based on latency then use a video clip that has zero latency as proof of no issue.

No, you're not "near immediately" .. Look at your own video again. You have add on timers that clearly show you being feared with an initial 4.0 second duration that doesn't break free until 3.2 or 3.1 seconds. Add server side latency into the mix and you're well over one second.

I don't know why anyone would want to keep a mechanic that's been complained about as being broken. Where were you a year ago when players were raising this concern? I don't see you contributing back then to "keep fear the way it's always been" .. There was literally nobody on that forum thread who believed Fear was fine or unbroken.

I very highly doubt that WW would be on some struggle bus if Fear is somehow properly fixed so I don't know what all the drama is about.

and for the record, I absolutely stayed at spawn. Your 4 team was playing as a team while one of my team members was off trotting in the back of the map, and, if I'm honest, I had used some of the content clips to capture my inability to break free from Fear, despite having enough stam to do so and despite applying the inputs twice, would not break free. So what's the point?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only issue I have with WW fear is there seems to be a bug where it ignores CC immunity, although this is highly likely a generic bug with all CC when under high server strain such as during MYM or when ball groups are present, and also the generic bug for all CC where it can sometimes be impossible to break free from, even with a full bar of stam.

Outside of that (which are more bugs rather than design issues), this is one of the aspects of refreshed WW I have no issues with.

DK Wings and Repelling Explosion also ignore CC immunity in certain conditions, even in no-lag environments. ZOS needs to look at CC and CC immunity.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Having helped create the clip in question, @Wuuffyy had no problem breaking free and using an ability shortly after.

That said, if there was any weirdness involving CC, look no further than Charms or Knockbacks which are actually proven to break your game unlike a standard Stun.

I've been critical and outspoken with Charm in the past, as well as Toppling Charge. It's not just Fear that I've pointed out as being broken, I've brought this up before on numerous other threads over time.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the inability to break free that occurs is latency related. That doesn't mean that it isn't a problem or that it doesn't exist, but that just means that we're going to toss that aspect into the void of unfixability.

But, unlike Stun or knockbacks, those CC can be broken mid-animation, where as Fear cannot. That difference results in an extended interruption on the target, which does present a problem. Especially when the CC is a large AoE.

Many of the other hard CC skills are target oriented and require recognition to cast. Wings knockback is AoE but at least it's only 6m and can be broken out of mid animation. Charm is arguably similar here because it can be delayed with break free.

And let's be real for a moment, for the most part we didn't see NB or Necro slotting fear, most likely because it didn't make sense; so we haven't seen broad use of Fear in PvP. As for Charm, we have seen that in PvP, especially post-subclassing, but even though it's an issue at least that was confined to base Wardens; somewhat limiting the exposure. In the case of Fear, we now have that mech on a world class that any base class can use and it's an integrated part of their toolkit so we're seeing much more use out of Fear than we had before.

People had called for Charm to be removed from the game so many times, and few people really disagreed with the sentiment that Charm was a problem, yet Fear works mechanically similar to Charm, only quicker and with a larger AoE yet somehow that's ok? Makes no sense.

I'm not saying either needs to be removed, I'm saying they need to be fixed to be in-line with hard CC. IMO no class or build should have a CC mech that delivers a guaranteed minimum one GCDs worth of interruption as part of it's base function (outside of any latency). I also don't see any evidence that any class or build is going to end up down the proverbial toilet if they have a fixed Fear.

I'm fine with WW having an unblockable stun and I'm ok with it affecting multiple targets, but, when when we're talking about Fear or Charm they break the mold. They need to be adjusted to deliver a combat balance to the caster & target.

Arguably neither a NB nor a Necro are delivering equitable output to a WW, which is fair, they haven't been refreshed. But taking a mech that has a delay break that's on NB or Necro (and typically not slotted), then giving it to a refreshed class makes a difference.

It would be similar to giving a person an RPG who is blind and then giving an RPG to someone with 20/20 vision and then telling them to go have a fight. Sure both RPGs are equal and always have been, but those RPGs are going to perform very differently in those two different hands.

It sounds like calling for a nerf but it's really calling for a fix of a problem that people haven't been seeing for a long time but has always been there. I don't see WW suffering with a change to fear. A change doesn't "have" to be make it conal, that was just a suggestion. It could be anything, but 10m AoE plus a delayed break is a problem.

vampires：agree.

If theres a WW ability that needs sustain cost increased, its this skill for shure.

3k stam for a cc ability that gives 6%dmg, major courage, and aoe fear is pretty in line with other cc abilities

My templar cc skills cost

4.3k mag (unstable core)
3.1k stam (javelin)
3.5k mag (toppling charge)
3k mag (blazing spear)

Other examples
Arcanist tentacles (3k stam)

Dk shattering rocks (3k mag)

It's pretty in line with other cc costs.

Right now im spamming the wolf fear every 5 gcd on my sorc and warden WW, keeping entire teams cc'ed, if sustain changes are to be reverted, this one should stay at 3k, there should be some brainpower behind using a cc, and not something you can just throw out whenever u feel like because it's essentially 100% free.

I use it to stop entire teams momentum at the beginning of a bg, i use it when i see a low hp teammate about to die, i use it to make shure my opponent runs out of stam, unless they are a ww or dk.

I had a BG with 3 ww's and 1 templar healer on each team, it was pure cancer, awooo, awooo, awooo, awooo, awooo, awooo.

That was the entire match.

It would also not be as cancerous if it was a single target cc.

I have almost shelved my templar these days, just go in as WW and end up going 20-50 kills and 0-1 death every bg i go into.

This patch cant come soon enough