Please don't forget to re-buff Dragonknight and Werewolf after the final Refresh

Teeba_Shei · August 14

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And no streak is the dollar, being able to chain stun people while you zip around the battlefield is so incredibly powerful people make builds around it. No one is making a build based around dk wings. Its just a really fun and useful skill that feels good to have vs streak which is so op the best 1vXers historically are usually sorc.

They are both a dollar fifty compared to similar ‘getaway options’ like cloak, shade (pre-placement and planning involved), Templar’s Bubble (let’s face it, this is part of Templar’s equivalent ‘survivability’), Warden’s Wings, Necro’s… (you’re not getting away on a necro without RAT- ‘tank it or die’), and Arcanist Portal.

This doesn’t change the fact that Ball of Lightning was nerfed a long time ago from ‘infinite projectiles’ to 1 per second (so basically eats a ranged basic from anyone weaving) yet Wing’s maintains ‘infinite reduction’ to projectiles while providing a host of things consistently and not relying on terrain.

Again, not saying myself wings ‘should be nerfed’ but it’s also definitely not ‘25 cents to Streak’s 1 dollar’.

The knockback on wings is extremely problematic. Knockbacks already have very little place in competitive PvP because they directly take control away from the player. You're not just being damaged or outplayed; your character is being forcibly repositioned and you have limited ability to respond.

That becomes even worse during laggy periods, where knockbacks can contribute to severe desyncs. You can end up losing control of your character for 30+ seconds, and at that point the outcome isn't really a fight anymore—you're effectively dead the moment the desync starts.

They're also extremely easy to abuse for griefing, particularly around terrain, ledges, and objectives. There's a big difference between an ability creating counterplay and an ability that can repeatedly remove someone's ability to control their character.

PvP should reward positioning, timing, and reacting to your opponent—not winning because you managed to repeatedly take control away from them. The knockback on wings is problematic for exactly that reason.

I agree. The knockback is definitely problematic, but I think the biggest issue is the combination of the knockback with the 50% damage reduction.

If the damage reduction were closer to 10% and wings only provided a stun, I think the ability would be much more reasonable. Knockbacks are already extremely powerful in PvP, but the massive damage reduction on top of that is what really pushes it over the line.

A 50% damage reduction against ranged damage effectively makes you unkillable by ranged builds unless you're being hit by a full zerg. That's an absurd amount of mitigation from a single ability, especially when it's combined with the disruption and control that the knockback provides.

CannedChicken · August 14

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And no streak is the dollar, being able to chain stun people while you zip around the battlefield is so incredibly powerful people make builds around it. No one is making a build based around dk wings. Its just a really fun and useful skill that feels good to have vs streak which is so op the best 1vXers historically are usually sorc.

They are both a dollar fifty compared to similar ‘getaway options’ like cloak, shade (pre-placement and planning involved), Templar’s Bubble (let’s face it, this is part of Templar’s equivalent ‘survivability’), Warden’s Wings, Necro’s… (you’re not getting away on a necro without RAT- ‘tank it or die’), and Arcanist Portal.

This doesn’t change the fact that Ball of Lightning was nerfed a long time ago from ‘infinite projectiles’ to 1 per second (so basically eats a ranged basic from anyone weaving) yet Wing’s maintains ‘infinite reduction’ to projectiles while providing a host of things consistently and not relying on terrain.

Again, not saying myself wings ‘should be nerfed’ but it’s also definitely not ‘25 cents to Streak’s 1 dollar’.

The knockback on wings is extremely problematic. Knockbacks already have very little place in competitive PvP because they directly take control away from the player. You're not just being damaged or outplayed; your character is being forcibly repositioned and you have limited ability to respond.

That becomes even worse during laggy periods, where knockbacks can contribute to severe desyncs. You can end up losing control of your character for 30+ seconds, and at that point the outcome isn't really a fight anymore—you're effectively dead the moment the desync starts.

They're also extremely easy to abuse for griefing, particularly around terrain, ledges, and objectives. There's a big difference between an ability creating counterplay and an ability that can repeatedly remove someone's ability to control their character.

PvP should reward positioning, timing, and reacting to your opponent—not winning because you managed to repeatedly take control away from them. The knockback on wings is problematic for exactly that reason.

I agree. The knockback is definitely problematic, but I think the biggest issue is the combination of the knockback with the 50% damage reduction.

If the damage reduction were closer to 10% and wings only provided a stun, I think the ability would be much more reasonable. Knockbacks are already extremely powerful in PvP, but the massive damage reduction on top of that is what really pushes it over the line.

A 50% damage reduction against ranged damage effectively makes you unkillable by ranged builds unless you're being hit by a full zerg. That's an absurd amount of mitigation from a single ability, especially when it's combined with the disruption and control that the knockback provides.

I agree with all of the points being made here. The major difference between streak and wings, though, is that wings doesn't have any kind of increasing cost mechanic. That effectively allows the 50% damage reduction to be chained indefinitely.

That's what makes wings so problematic. Even if you think the individual effects are reasonable, being able to repeatedly maintain that level of mitigation without the resource cost escalating is a completely different situation.

And honestly, ball of lightning isn't even remotely comparable. Its protection is far less reliable and far more situational. Having essentially 6 seconds of 50% damage reduction on demand is vastly stronger than what ball of lightning provides.

Arunei · August 14

What really gets me about the Stam cost increase on WW is they haven't addressed a SINGLE TIME how it goes against the whole damn reason they made WW Stam Skills cost so little to begin with (as well as to scale on BOTH Mag and Stam): To be viable for Mag builds to also play them.

On the PTS my Stam PvE WWs obviously run out of Stam at a faster rate in long fights than on Live. I genuinely don't see how a Mag build is going to be viable. Spamming Hircine's to get Stam back is going to cut into DPS considerably, while Rampage still takes the same amount of time (long) to activate and alleviate some of that.

This isn't going to force people to build into sustain on a Mag WW, it's going to just make everyone run Sorc for CoE. That Mastery NEEDS to be toned down first and THEN a potential increase to WW Skills (tho not by as much as in the PTS) can happen if need be.