Tbagging should not be a bannable offense

Syldras · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

See my point?

No.

What you're supposedly trying to present as an absurd juxtaposition (At least I guess that was your idea?) is absolutely normal in many countries. Cussing at other people is a criminal offense. First time usually leads to a fine, but repeated juvenile, uncontrolled behavior in traffic means the drivers licence will be gone, because someone unable to control their emotions is seen as unfit to safely drive a car. And I see nothing wrong with that. It's not even a common problem. Most people here manage to live their adult life without ever cussing at others.

It remains the way it is: There are official rules when it comes to using places/structures together with other people, no matter if it's public streets or this game. People agree to follow them to be allowed to participate: Drivers agree to abide to traffic regulations and other laws, and ESO players accept the TOS when they first log in. And if these rules are disrespected, it can result in punishment by the authorities.

Even if I might not find every single rule useful, I have agreed to follow them when registering here, and I know that ignoring them could put my account at risk. So I avoid risky behavior. It's simple.

XVestigeXx · August 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

its not about whether bagging is fun or not, its about the weaponization of reporting and banning people because of it. This is like trying to police people who flipped you off on the way to work by revoking their license. People are crafty and will do anything to be toxic and spiteful and abuse any system to hurt others. Bagging in a video game is harmless. Banning people for it is a lot of harm. It sounds good on paper, but like many things turns out very, very badly in real world application

You did not answer my question. What makes you WANT/NEED to do it? What are you getting out of it?

Have you ever flipped someone off or cussed at someone while driving? What made you want or need to do it? What did you get out of it? Should you have your license taken away for it?

The thing that makes this reportable is continuing to do it after you've been asked to stop. It's like if you flipped off the McDonald's employee because they made your order wrong. They said, "Sir, I understand why you're upset but I'm going to need you to call down," but you did it again anyway. So, the manager banned you from coming to that BK. If you had let it go the first time, everyone might be annoyed with you, but you'd still be eating your fries. But you chose to continue and that choice came with the consequence that you didn't get your fries and can't come back in.

Except we are not flipping off zos (the employee) we would be flipping off other customers. But a restaurant doesn't fit this analogy because you shouldn't be interacting with other customers there where as you do on the road while driving. If anything Mcdonald's is like a single player game in this analogy not an MMO and thats where it falls apart and doesn't make sense.

JavaRen · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Are baggers acting out in a moment of hit temper? Are you so angry at the inconsiderate jerk who had the audacity to lose to you that you start crouching over them while your blood pressure soars?

Does it matter?

Yes. If your answer is no, then the flipping off or swearing at other drivers analogy is invalid. If your answer is yes then y'all need a dang therapist.

XVestigeXx · August 14

Syldras wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

See my point?

No.

What you're supposedly trying to present as an absurd juxtaposition (At least I guess that was your idea?) is absolutely normal in many countries. Cussing at other people is a criminal offense. First time usually leads to a fine, but repeated juvenile, uncontrolled behavior in traffic means the drivers licence will be gone, because someone unable to control their emotions is seen as unfit to safely drive a car. And I see nothing wrong with that. It's not even a common problem. Most people here manage to live their adult life without ever cussing at others.

It remains the way it is: There are official rules when it comes to using places/structures together with other people, no matter if it's public streets or this game. People agree to follow them to be allowed to participate: Drivers agree to abide to traffic regulations and other laws, and ESO players accept the TOS when they first log in. And if these rules are disrespected, it can result in punishment by the authorities.

Even if I might not find every single rule useful, I have agreed to follow them when registering here, and I know that ignoring them could put my account at risk. So I avoid behavior risky behavior. It's simple.

Well I agree to disagree. I think my analogy makes a total sense and really makes it plain how silly and damaging these rules are and that they are just a weapon for people to hurt someone over to what amounts to a middle finger.
My hope with posts like this one is to effect change in the ToS as they are bad terms that are bad for everyone in this specific topic imo. Bad for Zos, bad for players, and even bad for those who report it as it rewards some pretty evil behavior imo when used as a weapon which it almost universally is used for.

I am sorry you don't see it that way and we couldn't meet eye to eye on anything but I still wish you all the best and hope you have a wonderful night and a great weekend!

spartaxoxo · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

its not about whether bagging is fun or not, its about the weaponization of reporting and banning people because of it. This is like trying to police people who flipped you off on the way to work by revoking their license. People are crafty and will do anything to be toxic and spiteful and abuse any system to hurt others. Bagging in a video game is harmless. Banning people for it is a lot of harm. It sounds good on paper, but like many things turns out very, very badly in real world application

You did not answer my question. What makes you WANT/NEED to do it? What are you getting out of it?

Have you ever flipped someone off or cussed at someone while driving? What made you want or need to do it? What did you get out of it? Should you have your license taken away for it?

The thing that makes this reportable is continuing to do it after you've been asked to stop. It's like if you flipped off the McDonald's employee because they made your order wrong. They said, "Sir, I understand why you're upset but I'm going to need you to call down," but you did it again anyway. So, the manager banned you from coming to that BK. If you had let it go the first time, everyone might be annoyed with you, but you'd still be eating your fries. But you chose to continue and that choice came with the consequence that you didn't get your fries and can't come back in.

Except we are not flipping off zos (the employee) we would be flipping off other customers. But a restaurant doesn't fit this analogy because you shouldn't be interacting with other customers there where as you do on the road while driving. If anything Mcdonald's is like a single player game in this analogy not an MMO and thats where it falls apart and doesn't make sense.

The car makes less sense than a restaurant for extended interactions with total strangers. You can swap McDonald's out for a coffee shop or bar if you want a place people eat and will chat up strangers but the point would remain the same. The bans aren't for doing quickly one time, as in your car scenario. They are repeatedly doing it after asked to stop.

shadoza · August 14

Reviewing these posts makes me not want to play this game more.

Not sure why anyone thinks that gesture is innocent fun It doesn't matter if this is done in game because the intent is to assault and belittle

The topic itself seems to provoke hostile engagements as at least one post thought posting a political attack is o'kay?

I believe it should be a ban-offense

SilverBride · August 14

Comparing someone reacting with anger to someone doing them wrong is not the same concept as simulating an act some find offensive on a player in a video game that did absolutely nothing wrong to anyone.

We'd still like to know what the tbagging player finds so rewarding that they can't just stop doing it, even under threat of being banned.

XVestigeXx · August 14

shadoza wrote: »

Reviewing these posts makes me not want to play this game more.

Not sure why anyone thinks that gesture is innocent fun It doesn't matter if this is done in game because the intent is to assault and belittle

The topic itself seems to provoke hostile engagements as at least one post thought posting a political attack is o'kay?

I believe it should be a ban-offense

I feel like these ToS rules specific to teabagging make me and many others not want to play the game as much either if we have to step on eggshells while playing because we could get banned for doing what everybody does on every other videogame.

Not sure what the political comment was as I probably missed it and didn't see it

XVestigeXx · August 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

its not about whether bagging is fun or not, its about the weaponization of reporting and banning people because of it. This is like trying to police people who flipped you off on the way to work by revoking their license. People are crafty and will do anything to be toxic and spiteful and abuse any system to hurt others. Bagging in a video game is harmless. Banning people for it is a lot of harm. It sounds good on paper, but like many things turns out very, very badly in real world application

You did not answer my question. What makes you WANT/NEED to do it? What are you getting out of it?

Have you ever flipped someone off or cussed at someone while driving? What made you want or need to do it? What did you get out of it? Should you have your license taken away for it?

The thing that makes this reportable is continuing to do it after you've been asked to stop. It's like if you flipped off the McDonald's employee because they made your order wrong. They said, "Sir, I understand why you're upset but I'm going to need you to call down," but you did it again anyway. So, the manager banned you from coming to that BK. If you had let it go the first time, everyone might be annoyed with you, but you'd still be eating your fries. But you chose to continue and that choice came with the consequence that you didn't get your fries and can't come back in.

Except we are not flipping off zos (the employee) we would be flipping off other customers. But a restaurant doesn't fit this analogy because you shouldn't be interacting with other customers there where as you do on the road while driving. If anything Mcdonald's is like a single player game in this analogy not an MMO and thats where it falls apart and doesn't make sense.

The car makes less sense than a restaurant for extended interactions with total strangers. You can swap McDonald's out for a coffee shop or bar if you want a place people eat and will chat up strangers but the point would remain the same. The bans aren't for doing quickly one time, as in your car scenario. They are repeatedly doing it after asked to stop.

I agree to completely disagree. Still wish you the best and a good night and a great weekend though! Have a good one! Goodnight

JavaRen · August 14

Not teabagging after being told to stop= walking on eggshells? That is an interesting reality you live in.

Soarora · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

You completely missed the point of the analogy or you intentionally dodged it. Then modified it. Road rage is entirely different and more akin to stalking or egregiously hunting down one player like stream sniping for example. you can't combine that with bagging/emoting in order to make it sound or appear worse than it is.

The answer to your question is the answer to my question. So how about you answer my question then I'll answer any question you have

What do you get out of cussing/flipping someone off? And should you get your license taken away for it?

I don't. I am a very considerate driver. When traffic is heavy I stay back and let cars out of parking lots and onto the road. A lot of drivers are considerate like that here. I never see drivers flip others off or yell or make a scene.

So you've never cussed at anyone ever? Be honest now, and it doesn't have to be just when driving in order to get out of the question. I would find it very hard to accept that you've never done or said anything to anyone ever along the lines of cussing or flipping someone off or at the very least insulting them. Tell the truth....

Whilst I don’t think teabagging should be a bannable offense, it is hard to agree with you at this point. No, of course not everyone has snapped at someone in a manner of insulting them. Unleashed anger isn’t justifiable with “everyone’s done it and everyone who claims they haven’t is lying”.

Teabagging strangers is, again, in my opinion, immature and being a sore winner. It’s a negative character trait. I don’t think it’s justifiable, I just don’t think it’s ban-worthy.

XVestigeXx · August 14

Soarora wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

You completely missed the point of the analogy or you intentionally dodged it. Then modified it. Road rage is entirely different and more akin to stalking or egregiously hunting down one player like stream sniping for example. you can't combine that with bagging/emoting in order to make it sound or appear worse than it is.

The answer to your question is the answer to my question. So how about you answer my question then I'll answer any question you have

What do you get out of cussing/flipping someone off? And should you get your license taken away for it?

I don't. I am a very considerate driver. When traffic is heavy I stay back and let cars out of parking lots and onto the road. A lot of drivers are considerate like that here. I never see drivers flip others off or yell or make a scene.

So you've never cussed at anyone ever? Be honest now, and it doesn't have to be just when driving in order to get out of the question. I would find it very hard to accept that you've never done or said anything to anyone ever along the lines of cussing or flipping someone off or at the very least insulting them. Tell the truth....

Whilst I don’t think teabagging should be a bannable offense, it is hard to agree with you at this point. No, of course not everyone has snapped at someone in a manner of insulting them. Unleashed anger isn’t justifiable with “everyone’s done it and everyone who claims they haven’t is lying”.

Teabagging strangers is, again, in my opinion, immature and being a sore winner. It’s a negative character trait. I don’t think it’s justifiable, I just don’t think it’s ban-worthy.

Yeah, I could see that. Perhaps I was too presumptuous in general there. But I think my point still holds merit

SolarRune · August 14

Unless I've missed that this has changed the act of tbagging itself isn't bannable, it's only when a player asked the other player to stop, and it continues long enough in the video evidence provided for someone at ZoS to say 'yep that pushes into harassment'.

Now if we are talking the ZoS temp ban whilst investigating thats a different issue, and one I feel takes too long to get to the answer and is something that does need to be sorted.

aetherix8 · August 14

Such a long thread already...

Before I state my position on banning accounts for tbagging, let's make it clear that personally tbagging doesn't bother me. I don't usually tbag others, but I absolutely love tbagging my tbaggers. That shocks most of them—those who tbag players whom they consider less skilled—and to be tbagged by such a low-skill moments after they got their tbag, and after being 'unfairly' defeated 1vX, just totally messes up their brains. I find that hilarious tbh, and oftentimes these players don't tbag me anymore after they have had to swallow their own medicine. Turns out the most compulsive tbaggers are also among the most sensitive players, and they have a hard time experiencing their own toxicity being used against them. There will be ofc some exceptions; it seems that players like albertberku might not be overly upset at being tbagged by a low-skill they just tbagged, but, as they say, the exception proves the rule.

On the main topic, should accounts be banned for tbagging? No. Should accounts be banned for continuing to tbag after being asked to stop? Yes, after having ignored several warnings and suspensions, perhaps a ban will pass the message that in this game, if someone asks you to stop tbagging them, you have to stop or risk a ban. And what other games do is irrelevant—different games, different rules. So yeah, in this game, if you want to enjoy tbagging others, you have to make an extra effort, like making sure you're online and keeping track of the people who have let you know that they are off-limits.

Having read seven pages of posts, I get the impression that you're too tone-deaf, OP. You refuse to take into consideration that other people have different sensitivities than you, and you refuse to make room for these folk. I think ZOS is doing a great job trying to accommodate both sides of the argument: tbagging is possible for those who enjoy it, but those who don't also have a way to make sure it doesn't happen to them all the time. I appreciate the inclusivity of this approach.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Melivar wrote: »

I don't understand why people get upset by it, heck I would never even notice as I am either looking at the death recap or for a place to respawn depending on the mode.

However the rules are the rules and everyone should just be adult enough to follow them just like running the risk on a speeding ticket.

Except this rule is a bad rule that should be changed, and unlike speed limits, this rule is not clearly stated outside of being buried in some code of conduct somewhere that nobody reads. It'd be like speeding on a road in some city with no speed limit signs and then being arrested because you didn't look up the local law and read what the speed limit was for that particular road even though its "clearly stated in our local lawbook and available to everyone".

There are good rules and bad rules. The bagging rule is a bad rule and makes me not want to support the game because it falls on the totalitarian side of things and I hate that

Ignorantia juris non excusat.

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

It doesn't really matter what motivates players to tbag. My guess is that it is an expression of their happiness at being victorious, just like I totally need to jump when I'm particularly proud of my win. It is also a way to show one's contempt for the defeated opponent's low skill. It's just a tool of communication.
It also doesn't matter what makes players hate being tbagged, and they don't owe explanations to anyone.

ESO_player123 · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

its not about whether bagging is fun or not, its about the weaponization of reporting and banning people because of it. This is like trying to police people who flipped you off on the way to work by revoking their license. People are crafty and will do anything to be toxic and spiteful and abuse any system to hurt others. Bagging in a video game is harmless. Banning people for it is a lot of harm. It sounds good on paper, but like many things turns out very, very badly in real world application

You did not answer my question. What makes you WANT/NEED to do it? What are you getting out of it?

Have you ever flipped someone off or cussed at someone while driving? What made you want or need to do it? What did you get out of it? Should you have your license taken away for it?

I have no habit of flipping people off under any circumstances. As for cussing, I might do it now and then, but not in the scenario "roll down the window and shout it at the persieved offender".

Besides, in the tbagging situation the bagger is not the slighted party. They just won.

So, back to my question for you.

XVestigeXx · August 14

aetherix8 wrote: »

Except this rule is a bad rule that should be changed, and unlike speed limits, this rule is not clearly stated outside of being buried in some code of conduct somewhere that nobody reads. It'd be like speeding on a road in some city with no speed limit signs and then being arrested because you didn't look up the local law and read what the speed limit was for that particular road even though its "clearly stated in our local lawbook and available to everyone".

There are good rules and bad rules. The bagging rule is a bad rule and makes me not want to support the game because it falls on the totalitarian side of things and I hate that

"Ignorantia juris non excusat."

Ignorance may not be an excuse in law but its terrible for the game not being clearly defined. Same as a town having no speed limit signs on roads and the town arresting anyone who violated the speed limits. The first time you find out there are speed limits that are not posted except inside town hall should not be with a speeding ticket or in this case an action on your account.

aetherix8 · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Except this rule is a bad rule that should be changed, and unlike speed limits, this rule is not clearly stated outside of being buried in some code of conduct somewhere that nobody reads. It'd be like speeding on a road in some city with no speed limit signs and then being arrested because you didn't look up the local law and read what the speed limit was for that particular road even though its "clearly stated in our local lawbook and available to everyone".

There are good rules and bad rules. The bagging rule is a bad rule and makes me not want to support the game because it falls on the totalitarian side of things and I hate that

"Ignorantia juris non excusat."

Ignorance may not be an excuse in law but its terrible for the game not being clearly defined. Same as a town having no speed limits and the town arresting anyone who violated the speed limits. The first time you find out there are speed limits that are not posted except inside town hall should not be with a speeding ticket or in this case an action on your account.

But it is clearly defined, and has been for years now. It's been several years that I've been acutely aware that tbagging might get me banned if I refuse to respect other players' demands to stop.

templar_heal · August 14

I found t bagging totally disgusting and offensive. Not quite understand how grown up people could use it

XVestigeXx · August 14

aetherix8 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Except this rule is a bad rule that should be changed, and unlike speed limits, this rule is not clearly stated outside of being buried in some code of conduct somewhere that nobody reads. It'd be like speeding on a road in some city with no speed limit signs and then being arrested because you didn't look up the local law and read what the speed limit was for that particular road even though its "clearly stated in our local lawbook and available to everyone".

There are good rules and bad rules. The bagging rule is a bad rule and makes me not want to support the game because it falls on the totalitarian side of things and I hate that

"Ignorantia juris non excusat."

Ignorance may not be an excuse in law but its terrible for the game not being clearly defined. Same as a town having no speed limits and the town arresting anyone who violated the speed limits. The first time you find out there are speed limits that are not posted except inside town hall should not be with a speeding ticket or in this case an action on your account.

But it is clearly defined, and has been for years now. It's been several years that I've been acutely aware that tbagging might get me banned if I refuse to respect other players' demands to stop.

The average player doesn't know except word of mouth or receiving an action on their account or actually reading it somewhere here on the forums. I have heard of lots of people being surprised and blindsided by it

ESO_player123 · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

You completely missed the point of the analogy or you intentionally dodged it. Then modified it. Road rage is entirely different and more akin to stalking or egregiously hunting down one player like stream sniping for example. you can't combine that with bagging/emoting in order to make it sound or appear worse than it is.

The answer to your question is the answer to my question. So how about you answer my question then I'll answer any question you have

What do you get out of cussing/flipping someone off? And should you get your license taken away for it?

I don't. I am a very considerate driver. When traffic is heavy I stay back and let cars out of parking lots and onto the road. A lot of drivers are considerate like that here. I never see drivers flip others off or yell or make a scene.

So you've never cussed at anyone ever? Be honest now, and it doesn't have to be just when driving in order to get out of the question. I would find it very hard to accept that you've never done or said anything to anyone ever along the lines of cussing or flipping someone off or at the very least insulting them. Tell the truth....

Since a similar question was directed to me as well, I can say that I've never cussed at anyone ever. Of course I used swear words, but mostly in the situations like describing someone's driving in private (since we seem to be unable to keep ourselves off the road for some reason in this conversation) or entering the door before opening it.

So, it looks like it leads to how we behave in RL as well, isn't it?

aetherix8 · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Except this rule is a bad rule that should be changed, and unlike speed limits, this rule is not clearly stated outside of being buried in some code of conduct somewhere that nobody reads. It'd be like speeding on a road in some city with no speed limit signs and then being arrested because you didn't look up the local law and read what the speed limit was for that particular road even though its "clearly stated in our local lawbook and available to everyone".

There are good rules and bad rules. The bagging rule is a bad rule and makes me not want to support the game because it falls on the totalitarian side of things and I hate that

"Ignorantia juris non excusat."

Ignorance may not be an excuse in law but its terrible for the game not being clearly defined. Same as a town having no speed limits and the town arresting anyone who violated the speed limits. The first time you find out there are speed limits that are not posted except inside town hall should not be with a speeding ticket or in this case an action on your account.

But it is clearly defined, and has been for years now. It's been several years that I've been acutely aware that tbagging might get me banned if I refuse to respect other players' demands to stop.

The average player doesn't know except word of mouth or receiving an action on their account or actually reading it somewhere here on the forums. I have heard of lots of people being surprised and blindsided by it

I wonder how many of us actually read all the ToS and such before clicking 'accept' and whether it would make any difference if this rule were clearly stated there.

I guess ZOS should add an extra page dedicated solely to their tbagging policy, and that also needs to be accepted before being able to launch the game.

ESO_player123 · August 14

aetherix8 wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

It doesn't really matter what motivates players to tbag. My guess is that it is an expression of their happiness at being victorious, just like I totally need to jump when I'm particularly proud of my win. It is also a way to show one's contempt for the defeated opponent's low skill. It's just a tool of communication.
It also doesn't matter what makes players hate being tbagged, and they don't owe explanations to anyone.

I think it does matter considering that this particular way of expressing their happiness/contempt is so controversial. They could have chosen a different way to react that does not carry any penalty (like that tea emote or the obnoxious trumpet one), yet they seem to defend spcifically tbagging. So, there must be someting special about it that some of us are missing.

aetherix8 · August 14

ESO_player123 wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

It doesn't really matter what motivates players to tbag. My guess is that it is an expression of their happiness at being victorious, just like I totally need to jump when I'm particularly proud of my win. It is also a way to show one's contempt for the defeated opponent's low skill. It's just a tool of communication.
It also doesn't matter what makes players hate being tbagged, and they don't owe explanations to anyone.

I think it does matter considering that this particular way of expressing their happiness/contempt is so controversial. They could have chosen a different way to react that does not carry any penalty (like that tea emote or the obnoxious trumpet one), yet they seem to defend spcifically tbagging. So, there must be someting special about it that some of us are missing.

The answer is very much in your own post. It is not tbag enjoyers who make this entire topic so controversial. But it being controversial means that there are good chances that a player getting tbagged will have a strong emotional response. And that's a fundamental part of PvP, whether players like it or not.

XVestigeXx · August 14

ESO_player123 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

You completely missed the point of the analogy or you intentionally dodged it. Then modified it. Road rage is entirely different and more akin to stalking or egregiously hunting down one player like stream sniping for example. you can't combine that with bagging/emoting in order to make it sound or appear worse than it is.

The answer to your question is the answer to my question. So how about you answer my question then I'll answer any question you have

What do you get out of cussing/flipping someone off? And should you get your license taken away for it?

I don't. I am a very considerate driver. When traffic is heavy I stay back and let cars out of parking lots and onto the road. A lot of drivers are considerate like that here. I never see drivers flip others off or yell or make a scene.

So you've never cussed at anyone ever? Be honest now, and it doesn't have to be just when driving in order to get out of the question. I would find it very hard to accept that you've never done or said anything to anyone ever along the lines of cussing or flipping someone off or at the very least insulting them. Tell the truth....

Since a similar question was directed to me as well, I can say that I've never cussed at anyone ever. Of course I used swear words, but mostly in the situations like describing someone's driving in private (since we seem to be unable to keep ourselves off the road for some reason in this conversation) or entering the door before opening it.

So, it looks like it leads to how we behave in RL as well, isn't it?

I mean I have never done those things either personally IRL specifically but I have gotten annoyed at people in and out of game and bagged for annoying things or bagged in retaliation to being bagged in game. I think its rather human to get annoyed at others and disingenuous that people in opposition to my points describe themselves as never being annoyed or angry at anyone enough to act out on it ever in any rude form. And I know thats not true because they are human beings

XVestigeXx · August 14

ESO_player123 wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

The proponents of tbagging bring all sorts of arguments, but no one actulally answered what makes this act fun for them. What kind of strong feelings does it evoke in them so that they would accept inconvenineces and penalties?

It doesn't really matter what motivates players to tbag. My guess is that it is an expression of their happiness at being victorious, just like I totally need to jump when I'm particularly proud of my win. It is also a way to show one's contempt for the defeated opponent's low skill. It's just a tool of communication.
It also doesn't matter what makes players hate being tbagged, and they don't owe explanations to anyone.

I think it does matter considering that this particular way of expressing their happiness/contempt is so controversial. They could have chosen a different way to react that does not carry any penalty (like that tea emote or the obnoxious trumpet one), yet they seem to defend spcifically tbagging. So, there must be someting special about it that some of us are missing.

except those emotes are also bannable in the same way as teabagging. Zos could remove every animation that could possibly resemble anything like bagging and I would not care but emoting on people would still be bannable and thats what I think is wrong. And I think it should extend to bagging as well as every emote in that none of it should be bannable

frogthroat · August 14

This conversation again. One thing that baffles me is the receiving end.

Sure, the tbagger is a bad winner. Not very polite. But why does it bother people so much? This I don't get. I see some strange comparisons to flipping people off in traffic. This is a video game where you have no physical proximity to others. You don't even have many options to communicate with the opposing side so tbagging is a quick and easy way to show you are a ***.

But why does it bother people so much? It can't be that personal, players don't know each other. Even if you know the gamer tag of someone and have fought against them previously, you still know nothing about the person behind the screen.

For me, if someone I don't know tries to insult me in any way, I don't really care. I don't value that person enough to be upset. They don't know me so their behaviour tells me more about them than about myself. If someone tbags me I don't feel anything personally. I just think they are the strange one.

So what do people feel when they get tbagged? Why is it such a big thing it invokes any kind of emotional response? People who don't like it, I am not asking to imagine what someone might feel. We can all imagine all kinds of things. What exactly is it that causes the emotional turmoil?

XVestigeXx · August 14

aetherix8 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Except this rule is a bad rule that should be changed, and unlike speed limits, this rule is not clearly stated outside of being buried in some code of conduct somewhere that nobody reads. It'd be like speeding on a road in some city with no speed limit signs and then being arrested because you didn't look up the local law and read what the speed limit was for that particular road even though its "clearly stated in our local lawbook and available to everyone".

There are good rules and bad rules. The bagging rule is a bad rule and makes me not want to support the game because it falls on the totalitarian side of things and I hate that

"Ignorantia juris non excusat."

Ignorance may not be an excuse in law but its terrible for the game not being clearly defined. Same as a town having no speed limits and the town arresting anyone who violated the speed limits. The first time you find out there are speed limits that are not posted except inside town hall should not be with a speeding ticket or in this case an action on your account.

But it is clearly defined, and has been for years now. It's been several years that I've been acutely aware that tbagging might get me banned if I refuse to respect other players' demands to stop.

The average player doesn't know except word of mouth or receiving an action on their account or actually reading it somewhere here on the forums. I have heard of lots of people being surprised and blindsided by it

I wonder how many of us actually read all the ToS and such before clicking 'accept' and whether it would make any difference if this rule were clearly stated there.

I guess ZOS should add an extra page dedicated solely to their tbagging policy, and that also needs to be accepted before being able to launch the game.

I would actually unironically say yes they should with how widespread it is in gaming culture and detached from anything considered heinous

Aliniel · August 14

ZOS don't even ban trolls, BG AFK players, fake dungeon tanks/healers, etc. Why would they bother with something this insignificant?

Anyway, reporting players in ESO is extremely difficult process and at the end of it they don't bother punishing anyone. To actually report someone, you need to chase them down and press F on wheel to report them (unless they type something in the chat). The whole report system is a waste of time.

Northwold · August 14

Am I missing something? This thread seems to be a rolling jamboree of replies that can be summarised to "I don't think it's toxic therefore I demand that I be able to do it because my view is logical" (without any actual logical argument) in response to every suggestion that the existing position is both more nuanced and more sensible than described.

It's hard to see why the people who don't have a problem with the existing policy -- relating to literally ONE player behaviour in specific circumstances -- are the "oversensitive" ones here?

Luneca · August 14

Aliniel wrote: »

ZOS don't even ban trolls, BG AFK players, fake dungeon tanks/healers, etc. Why would they bother with something this insignificant?

Anyway, reporting players in ESO is extremely difficult process and at the end of it they don't bother punishing anyone. To actually report someone, you need to chase them down and press F on wheel to report them (unless they type something in the chat). The whole report system is a waste of time.

Well, I once got reported for rolling and hitting the CTRL key once for "t-bagging" even though it was in Vengeance and the only way to reveal NBs at the time was to enter stealth and search like that. The person got irate and said I t-bagged them because their body happened to be there.

Yeah, someone is t-babbing when 3 NBs are attacking them in Vengeance? Person instablocked me and said they would report me. But I did not have action taken against me.

But it shows how subjective it can be to determine what is and is not t-bagging which is why the rule is a bad one. Any rule subject to interpretation many ways will always be a problem.

When hitting CTRL is a valid part of combat to enter stealth, you cannot even argue hitting it more than once is always t-bagging because sometimes the game does not register input (esp. this current patch with the client lagging and freezing once things starts heating up in Cyro).

So then we have to consider what' plausible and what's intentional, and at that point what good is a rule when it's not applied equally in the first place and subject to abuse or a situation can be misinterpreted?

It's similar to the dumb rule about stream sniping. I got warned before for firing siege defending a keep for stream sniping. If an AD scroll is at KC, guess where I am going to be to fire siege? I don't need to watch a stream to know AD will be coming, esp. when they always do after getting Sej/Drake. In fact, they should be expecting me and slotting siege. And siege shields. They really are allergic to that for some reason.

Rules like this do not actually add anything to the player experience. I don't really care if someone t-bags me in the game...and you know what? No one really has. Though they have placed a bunch of oils around my dead body and fired siege at it. I still don't get it to be honest.