NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)

Agreed, it’s not just WW, it’s the Fear mech in general. It’s just too unreliable, mechanically.

I would like to see it changed to conal for all categories / classes that have it.

Other than that, leave WW alone. I don’t think people realize that if they start calling for nerfs this early in what they’re setting themselves up for in the way of reduced effectiveness of their own class refresh.

Subclassing did the damage already, the power creep is already in orbit and it’s not coming down, no matter how much people don’t like that. Players don’t have to min / max their builds to compete at that level but there’s no getting around that subclassing moved the goal post on power and it’s only fair that everyone else be allowed to be competitive if they want to.

Right, but I wouldn't want to make fear unreliable in general, for anyone. So I'd have to disagree in making any current or future iteration of fear conal as that just adds to said unreliability and furthers issue with positional dsync (like we need those)

With that being said, I'm of the same mindset regarding the 'class balance'-

Any nerfs we request today on any basis for the reworked level serve to steal power from future reworks as well. Likely mechanics that any particular class would have thrived with will be invisibly removed should ZOS continue to fully cave during these content lulls.

Oh well.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)

Agreed, it’s not just WW, it’s the Fear mech in general. It’s just too unreliable, mechanically.

I would like to see it changed to conal for all categories / classes that have it.

Other than that, leave WW alone. I don’t think people realize that if they start calling for nerfs this early in what they’re setting themselves up for in the way of reduced effectiveness of their own class refresh.

Subclassing did the damage already, the power creep is already in orbit and it’s not coming down, no matter how much people don’t like that. Players don’t have to min / max their builds to compete at that level but there’s no getting around that subclassing moved the goal post on power and it’s only fair that everyone else be allowed to be competitive if they want to.

Right, but I wouldn't want to make fear unreliable in general, for anyone. So I'd have to disagree in making any current or future iteration of fear conal as that just adds to said unreliability and furthers issue with positional dsync (like we need those)

With that being said, I'm of the same mindset regarding the 'class balance'-

Any nerfs we request today on any basis for the reworked level serve to steal power from future reworks as well. Likely mechanics that any particular class would have thrived with will be invisibly removed should ZOS continue to fully cave during these content lulls.

Oh well.

I don’t think making Fear conal would make it unreliable at all. The idea is to limit the unreliability of the break free the mechanic has. No player, ever, should have a CC that isn’t consistently reliable with breaking free. Since I think it’s unrealistic that the Devs can fix the break free unreliability the only way to fairly balance that is to limit the amount of AoE it can effect.

As far as Desync, I think the state of server side latency is so poor that we’re just in that water now. I don’t know that ever gets much better

I know it makes it unreliable as I've played with the the cleave which is the exact CC type you're describing (not just considering the MUCH small window to actually LAND said fear; honestly, really any cone too). With that being said, I don't see why we are wanting to add unnecessary restrictions on skills/CCs that have existed for YEARS in the game without issue. Anyways, going to agree to disagree here and move on.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)

Agreed, it’s not just WW, it’s the Fear mech in general. It’s just too unreliable, mechanically.

I would like to see it changed to conal for all categories / classes that have it.

Other than that, leave WW alone. I don’t think people realize that if they start calling for nerfs this early in what they’re setting themselves up for in the way of reduced effectiveness of their own class refresh.

Subclassing did the damage already, the power creep is already in orbit and it’s not coming down, no matter how much people don’t like that. Players don’t have to min / max their builds to compete at that level but there’s no getting around that subclassing moved the goal post on power and it’s only fair that everyone else be allowed to be competitive if they want to.

Right, but I wouldn't want to make fear unreliable in general, for anyone. So I'd have to disagree in making any current or future iteration of fear conal as that just adds to said unreliability and furthers issue with positional dsync (like we need those)

With that being said, I'm of the same mindset regarding the 'class balance'-

Any nerfs we request today on any basis for the reworked level serve to steal power from future reworks as well. Likely mechanics that any particular class would have thrived with will be invisibly removed should ZOS continue to fully cave during these content lulls.

Oh well.

I don’t think making Fear conal would make it unreliable at all. The idea is to limit the unreliability of the break free the mechanic has. No player, ever, should have a CC that isn’t consistently reliable with breaking free. Since I think it’s unrealistic that the Devs can fix the break free unreliability the only way to fairly balance that is to limit the amount of AoE it can effect.

As far as Desync, I think the state of server side latency is so poor that we’re just in that water now. I don’t know that ever gets much better

I know it makes it unreliable as I've played with the the cleave (not just considering the MUCH small window to actually LAND said fear; honestly, really any cone too). With that being said, I don't see why we are wanting to add unnecessary restrictions on skills/CCs that have existed for YEARS in the game without issue. Anyways, going to agree to disagree here and move on.

One of the worst arguments for anything across history is “well that’s the way it’s always been”.

There’s no issue with “landing fear” it’s AoE, there’s no unreliability with that and we see WW hitting fear on players consistently every single day.

I’m sorry, mechanics that are problematic need to be addressed. Fear is the only part of the WW toolkit that’s an issue and, to be fair, it’s not just WW; it’s everyone who can slot Fear as a CC.

CC must be reliable for both the caster AND the target. Currently Fear is more than reliable on the part of casters. We’re not seeing any evidence anywhere that Fear is a problem being cast by WW, so I’m sorry, that’s unfounded. But there are PLENTY of long standing reports of issues & problems with people being able to break free of Fear.

So yes, it’s been a problem for years, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fixed.

'If it works, don't fix it'. CC break gives you immunity and a werewolf isn't getting ready to whip half your healthbar before you break free. You're clearly fixated on any way you can gut werewolf to get it out of your face without realizing you only need to do half that and rework 1 more class to push werewolf out of relevance.

Let me get a list of what you all want so we can both have a better grasp here:

'werewolf is one-bar so it shouldn't complete or should be a meme spec'

The suggestions (many of which come from you and the 'no-PFP-crowd' are as followings)-

-completely rework fear to nerf werewolf (like just make it feel as awful as you can; make it a cone)
-remove their detect
-significantly impact their sustain
-return no damage whatsoever (so basically a worse version of the previous werewolf atp)
-reduce healing in general
-remove health-based healing (which means you want the healing reduced with these values... not increased)
-remove masteries (at this point, the one I agree with)
-remove their ability to buff their group (no minor/major courage or 'Feeding Frenzy')

anything else I'm missing? At what point are any of your suggestion geared towards werewolf being 'viable and competitive' when many of you have clearly stated that 'it shouldn't exist'. I mean, you're at a point right now where you're arguing reworking an entire mechanic (fear) as an excuse to indirectly nerf werewolf further... holy smokes Batman!

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)

Agreed, it’s not just WW, it’s the Fear mech in general. It’s just too unreliable, mechanically.

I would like to see it changed to conal for all categories / classes that have it.

Other than that, leave WW alone. I don’t think people realize that if they start calling for nerfs this early in what they’re setting themselves up for in the way of reduced effectiveness of their own class refresh.

Subclassing did the damage already, the power creep is already in orbit and it’s not coming down, no matter how much people don’t like that. Players don’t have to min / max their builds to compete at that level but there’s no getting around that subclassing moved the goal post on power and it’s only fair that everyone else be allowed to be competitive if they want to.

Right, but I wouldn't want to make fear unreliable in general, for anyone. So I'd have to disagree in making any current or future iteration of fear conal as that just adds to said unreliability and furthers issue with positional dsync (like we need those)

With that being said, I'm of the same mindset regarding the 'class balance'-

Any nerfs we request today on any basis for the reworked level serve to steal power from future reworks as well. Likely mechanics that any particular class would have thrived with will be invisibly removed should ZOS continue to fully cave during these content lulls.

Oh well.

I don’t think making Fear conal would make it unreliable at all. The idea is to limit the unreliability of the break free the mechanic has. No player, ever, should have a CC that isn’t consistently reliable with breaking free. Since I think it’s unrealistic that the Devs can fix the break free unreliability the only way to fairly balance that is to limit the amount of AoE it can effect.

As far as Desync, I think the state of server side latency is so poor that we’re just in that water now. I don’t know that ever gets much better

I know it makes it unreliable as I've played with the the cleave (not just considering the MUCH small window to actually LAND said fear; honestly, really any cone too). With that being said, I don't see why we are wanting to add unnecessary restrictions on skills/CCs that have existed for YEARS in the game without issue. Anyways, going to agree to disagree here and move on.

One of the worst arguments for anything across history is “well that’s the way it’s always been”.

There’s no issue with “landing fear” it’s AoE, there’s no unreliability with that and we see WW hitting fear on players consistently every single day.

I’m sorry, mechanics that are problematic need to be addressed. Fear is the only part of the WW toolkit that’s an issue and, to be fair, it’s not just WW; it’s everyone who can slot Fear as a CC.

CC must be reliable for both the caster AND the target. Currently Fear is more than reliable on the part of casters. We’re not seeing any evidence anywhere that Fear is a problem being cast by WW, so I’m sorry, that’s unfounded. But there are PLENTY of long standing reports of issues & problems with people being able to break free of Fear.

So yes, it’s been a problem for years, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fixed.

'If it works, don't fix it'. CC break gives you immunity and a werewolf isn't getting ready to whip half your healthbar before you break free.

That’s the issue, it doesn’t work reliably. Break free gives you immunity only once you break free. Fear has an extended duration to break free, plus, bugs that prevent reliable breaking free. That’s not ok.

As for chunking a health bar, we see WW able to apply heavy damage, per GCD. DK’s lean on whip but WW stack heavy bleeds, plenty of set procs and skills that scale high enough that even 1 ticks worth of application can rival some Ulti scaling so let’s not sit here and pretend WW are hitting their targets with Nerf bats .. please, nobody believes that.

The break free response, specifically, of Fear is delayed versus every other hard CC in the game and that’s a problem that needs to be fixed.

Nobody is saying WW can’t have Fear; what I’m saying is that Fear cannot mechanically behave in combat the way that it currently does (and always have), because it’s too broken,

Most of werewolf 'damage' is proc and mastery-oriented and you can clearly see that anywhere you go. The only potential exception is Berserker with a metric ton of drawbacks (which was also nerfed heavily from pre-rework). Regardless, no werewolf is doing 25-50k damage in a couple of GCDs in and around a CC to a player with an actual PvP build unlike any other build (especially DK) so the individual 'threat level' during a heavy CC just isn't there...

I say werewolf fear can exist because it brings value to them in PvP groups, especially with nightblade detect; I would also state the 'cast time' is a far more significant drawback for the 3m increase (from prior fear) than you'd probably like to believe. I'd also like my NB's fear to be improved during a rework (and here's hoping to vampire somewhere FAR down the line), not diminished just as a rallying cry to indirectly nerf werewolf. Who's to decide that 'fear's just too broken now' anyway- whoever screams the loudest on the forums and Reddit?

Now, I'd love to drop this conversation b/c I know you're not open to any discussion on logic or reason for this subject matter (werewolf) and you have to actually consider there are players who want werewolf to exist the same way you want to see your favorite classes shine in a rework... and that just isn't going to happen for you or anyone like you.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)

Agreed, it’s not just WW, it’s the Fear mech in general. It’s just too unreliable, mechanically.

I would like to see it changed to conal for all categories / classes that have it.

Other than that, leave WW alone. I don’t think people realize that if they start calling for nerfs this early in what they’re setting themselves up for in the way of reduced effectiveness of their own class refresh.

Subclassing did the damage already, the power creep is already in orbit and it’s not coming down, no matter how much people don’t like that. Players don’t have to min / max their builds to compete at that level but there’s no getting around that subclassing moved the goal post on power and it’s only fair that everyone else be allowed to be competitive if they want to.

Right, but I wouldn't want to make fear unreliable in general, for anyone. So I'd have to disagree in making any current or future iteration of fear conal as that just adds to said unreliability and furthers issue with positional dsync (like we need those)

With that being said, I'm of the same mindset regarding the 'class balance'-

Any nerfs we request today on any basis for the reworked level serve to steal power from future reworks as well. Likely mechanics that any particular class would have thrived with will be invisibly removed should ZOS continue to fully cave during these content lulls.

Oh well.

I don’t think making Fear conal would make it unreliable at all. The idea is to limit the unreliability of the break free the mechanic has. No player, ever, should have a CC that isn’t consistently reliable with breaking free. Since I think it’s unrealistic that the Devs can fix the break free unreliability the only way to fairly balance that is to limit the amount of AoE it can effect.

As far as Desync, I think the state of server side latency is so poor that we’re just in that water now. I don’t know that ever gets much better

I know it makes it unreliable as I've played with the the cleave (not just considering the MUCH small window to actually LAND said fear; honestly, really any cone too). With that being said, I don't see why we are wanting to add unnecessary restrictions on skills/CCs that have existed for YEARS in the game without issue. Anyways, going to agree to disagree here and move on.

One of the worst arguments for anything across history is “well that’s the way it’s always been”.

There’s no issue with “landing fear” it’s AoE, there’s no unreliability with that and we see WW hitting fear on players consistently every single day.

I’m sorry, mechanics that are problematic need to be addressed. Fear is the only part of the WW toolkit that’s an issue and, to be fair, it’s not just WW; it’s everyone who can slot Fear as a CC.

CC must be reliable for both the caster AND the target. Currently Fear is more than reliable on the part of casters. We’re not seeing any evidence anywhere that Fear is a problem being cast by WW, so I’m sorry, that’s unfounded. But there are PLENTY of long standing reports of issues & problems with people being able to break free of Fear.

So yes, it’s been a problem for years, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fixed.

'If it works, don't fix it'. CC break gives you immunity and a werewolf isn't getting ready to whip half your healthbar before you break free.

That’s the issue, it doesn’t work reliably. Break free gives you immunity only once you break free. Fear has an extended duration to break free, plus, bugs that prevent reliable breaking free. That’s not ok.

As for chunking a health bar, we see WW able to apply heavy damage, per GCD. DK’s lean on whip but WW stack heavy bleeds, plenty of set procs and skills that scale high enough that even 1 ticks worth of application can rival some Ulti scaling so let’s not sit here and pretend WW are hitting their targets with Nerf bats .. please, nobody believes that.

The break free response, specifically, of Fear is delayed versus every other hard CC in the game and that’s a problem that needs to be fixed.

Nobody is saying WW can’t have Fear; what I’m saying is that Fear cannot mechanically behave in combat the way that it currently does (and always have), because it’s too broken,

Most of werewolf damage is 'proc-oriented' and you can clearly see that anywhere you go. The only potential exception is Berserker with a metric ton of drawbacks (which was also nerfed pre-rework). No werewolf is doing 25-50k damage in a couple of GCDs to a player with an actual PvP build on...

I say werewolf fear can exist because it brings value to them in PvP groups, especially with nightblade detect. Who's to decide that 'fear's just too broken now' anyway- whoever screams the loudest on the forums and Reddit?

If that were true then WW wouldn't be excelling in 1vX PvP combat but, again, there's plenty of evidence that they are.

Who's to decide? How about the community at large? They have been complaining about this mechanical issue for YEARS now, it's not new, this has been a known problem for a long time it's just never been fixed. The ONLY difference now is that we have it on a world-class that can hit harder than most.

In reality, factually, the act of breaking free should have a consistency among the time it take to execute across all hard CC. So that would be Stuns, Charm, Fear, etc. .. all of them should yield a similar response curve when a player breaks free. That's not the case here; with Fear we have one that has a delayed response.

WW should have a CC, but one that functions reliably and consistently for both them and their targets.

There's no good reason to leave a mechanic broken. I get that hardcore WW mains are the only ones who would argue to keep a mechanic broken but, lets be honest, changing Fear from AoE to conal for all casters that have that particular CC isn't going to impede a skilled WW, or at least, it shouldn't.

‘some times break free hard, so nerf werewolf’

Also, the meta playstyle totally isn’t sorc and Gore with SW or anything crazy like that.

Man, all of those pure class Templar, Shattered Fate werewolves totally giving us all a run for our money /s.

Just because you type confidently doesn’t mean what’s coming from your fingers is valid and isn’t absolute, uh nvm. I’m set on this conversation with you for now, ‘agree to disagree’ as I’ve stated prior.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)

Agreed, it’s not just WW, it’s the Fear mech in general. It’s just too unreliable, mechanically.

I would like to see it changed to conal for all categories / classes that have it.

Other than that, leave WW alone. I don’t think people realize that if they start calling for nerfs this early in what they’re setting themselves up for in the way of reduced effectiveness of their own class refresh.

Subclassing did the damage already, the power creep is already in orbit and it’s not coming down, no matter how much people don’t like that. Players don’t have to min / max their builds to compete at that level but there’s no getting around that subclassing moved the goal post on power and it’s only fair that everyone else be allowed to be competitive if they want to.

Right, but I wouldn't want to make fear unreliable in general, for anyone. So I'd have to disagree in making any current or future iteration of fear conal as that just adds to said unreliability and furthers issue with positional dsync (like we need those)

With that being said, I'm of the same mindset regarding the 'class balance'-

Any nerfs we request today on any basis for the reworked level serve to steal power from future reworks as well. Likely mechanics that any particular class would have thrived with will be invisibly removed should ZOS continue to fully cave during these content lulls.

Oh well.

I don’t think making Fear conal would make it unreliable at all. The idea is to limit the unreliability of the break free the mechanic has. No player, ever, should have a CC that isn’t consistently reliable with breaking free. Since I think it’s unrealistic that the Devs can fix the break free unreliability the only way to fairly balance that is to limit the amount of AoE it can effect.

As far as Desync, I think the state of server side latency is so poor that we’re just in that water now. I don’t know that ever gets much better

I know it makes it unreliable as I've played with the the cleave (not just considering the MUCH small window to actually LAND said fear; honestly, really any cone too). With that being said, I don't see why we are wanting to add unnecessary restrictions on skills/CCs that have existed for YEARS in the game without issue. Anyways, going to agree to disagree here and move on.

One of the worst arguments for anything across history is “well that’s the way it’s always been”.

There’s no issue with “landing fear” it’s AoE, there’s no unreliability with that and we see WW hitting fear on players consistently every single day.

I’m sorry, mechanics that are problematic need to be addressed. Fear is the only part of the WW toolkit that’s an issue and, to be fair, it’s not just WW; it’s everyone who can slot Fear as a CC.

CC must be reliable for both the caster AND the target. Currently Fear is more than reliable on the part of casters. We’re not seeing any evidence anywhere that Fear is a problem being cast by WW, so I’m sorry, that’s unfounded. But there are PLENTY of long standing reports of issues & problems with people being able to break free of Fear.

So yes, it’s been a problem for years, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fixed.

'If it works, don't fix it'. CC break gives you immunity and a werewolf isn't getting ready to whip half your healthbar before you break free.

That’s the issue, it doesn’t work reliably. Break free gives you immunity only once you break free. Fear has an extended duration to break free, plus, bugs that prevent reliable breaking free. That’s not ok.

As for chunking a health bar, we see WW able to apply heavy damage, per GCD. DK’s lean on whip but WW stack heavy bleeds, plenty of set procs and skills that scale high enough that even 1 ticks worth of application can rival some Ulti scaling so let’s not sit here and pretend WW are hitting their targets with Nerf bats .. please, nobody believes that.

The break free response, specifically, of Fear is delayed versus every other hard CC in the game and that’s a problem that needs to be fixed.

Nobody is saying WW can’t have Fear; what I’m saying is that Fear cannot mechanically behave in combat the way that it currently does (and always have), because it’s too broken,

Most of werewolf damage is 'proc-oriented' and you can clearly see that anywhere you go. The only potential exception is Berserker with a metric ton of drawbacks (which was also nerfed pre-rework). No werewolf is doing 25-50k damage in a couple of GCDs to a player with an actual PvP build on...

I say werewolf fear can exist because it brings value to them in PvP groups, especially with nightblade detect. Who's to decide that 'fear's just too broken now' anyway- whoever screams the loudest on the forums and Reddit?

If that were true then WW wouldn't be excelling in 1vX PvP combat but, again, there's plenty of evidence that they are.

Who's to decide? How about the community at large? They have been complaining about this mechanical issue for YEARS now, it's not new, this has been a known problem for a long time it's just never been fixed. The ONLY difference now is that we have it on a world-class that can hit harder than most.

In reality, factually, the act of breaking free should have a consistency among the time it take to execute across all hard CC. So that would be Stuns, Charm, Fear, etc. .. all of them should yield a similar response curve when a player breaks free. That's not the case here; with Fear we have one that has a delayed response.

WW should have a CC, but one that functions reliably and consistently for both them and their targets.

There's no good reason to leave a mechanic broken. I get that hardcore WW mains are the only ones who would argue to keep a mechanic broken but, lets be honest, changing Fear from AoE to conal for all casters that have that particular CC isn't going to impede a skilled WW, or at least, it shouldn't.

‘some times break free hard, so nerf werewolf’

Also, the meta playstyle totally isn’t sorc and Gore with SW or anything crazy like that.

Man, all of those pure class Templar, Shattered Fate werewolves totally giving us all a run for our money /s.

Just because you type confidently doesn’t mean what’s coming from your fingers is valid and isn’t absolute, uh nvm. I’m set on this conversation with you for now, ‘agree to disagree’ as I’ve stated prior.

"Sure Jan"

It's basically Fear is broken, so fix the mechanic .. it has nothing to do with WW.

If you think the Meta right now isn't DK followed by WW then I'm sorry, you're just trolling for the sake of trying to make WW the top build.

I've been the more grounded of the community, advocating that WW not be nerfed but if people can't be objective and recognize real issues when they exist then ESO PvP might as well cut the servers off now because it will just be a continuous spiral of imbalance.

The majority of the community is calling for WW to get a hammer and while I don't agree with them, the more and more we get people trying to side pedal real issues like they don't exist is only going to play into the greater communities hands of actually getting nerfs.

WW is already getting an increase in resource cost.

Keep pretending like WW has some crazy uphill battle to play properly and more people are going to roll their eyes, likely, including the Devs.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

DK, Werewolf, and the subclasses min / max builds are meta, by far. Nobody else comes close.

Sorc def up there too

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)

Agreed, it’s not just WW, it’s the Fear mech in general. It’s just too unreliable, mechanically.

I would like to see it changed to conal for all categories / classes that have it.

Other than that, leave WW alone. I don’t think people realize that if they start calling for nerfs this early in what they’re setting themselves up for in the way of reduced effectiveness of their own class refresh.

Subclassing did the damage already, the power creep is already in orbit and it’s not coming down, no matter how much people don’t like that. Players don’t have to min / max their builds to compete at that level but there’s no getting around that subclassing moved the goal post on power and it’s only fair that everyone else be allowed to be competitive if they want to.

Right, but I wouldn't want to make fear unreliable in general, for anyone. So I'd have to disagree in making any current or future iteration of fear conal as that just adds to said unreliability and furthers issue with positional dsync (like we need those)

With that being said, I'm of the same mindset regarding the 'class balance'-

Any nerfs we request today on any basis for the reworked level serve to steal power from future reworks as well. Likely mechanics that any particular class would have thrived with will be invisibly removed should ZOS continue to fully cave during these content lulls.

Oh well.

I don’t think making Fear conal would make it unreliable at all. The idea is to limit the unreliability of the break free the mechanic has. No player, ever, should have a CC that isn’t consistently reliable with breaking free. Since I think it’s unrealistic that the Devs can fix the break free unreliability the only way to fairly balance that is to limit the amount of AoE it can effect.

As far as Desync, I think the state of server side latency is so poor that we’re just in that water now. I don’t know that ever gets much better

I know it makes it unreliable as I've played with the the cleave (not just considering the MUCH small window to actually LAND said fear; honestly, really any cone too). With that being said, I don't see why we are wanting to add unnecessary restrictions on skills/CCs that have existed for YEARS in the game without issue. Anyways, going to agree to disagree here and move on.

One of the worst arguments for anything across history is “well that’s the way it’s always been”.

There’s no issue with “landing fear” it’s AoE, there’s no unreliability with that and we see WW hitting fear on players consistently every single day.

I’m sorry, mechanics that are problematic need to be addressed. Fear is the only part of the WW toolkit that’s an issue and, to be fair, it’s not just WW; it’s everyone who can slot Fear as a CC.

CC must be reliable for both the caster AND the target. Currently Fear is more than reliable on the part of casters. We’re not seeing any evidence anywhere that Fear is a problem being cast by WW, so I’m sorry, that’s unfounded. But there are PLENTY of long standing reports of issues & problems with people being able to break free of Fear.

So yes, it’s been a problem for years, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be fixed.

'If it works, don't fix it'. CC break gives you immunity and a werewolf isn't getting ready to whip half your healthbar before you break free.

That’s the issue, it doesn’t work reliably. Break free gives you immunity only once you break free. Fear has an extended duration to break free, plus, bugs that prevent reliable breaking free. That’s not ok.

As for chunking a health bar, we see WW able to apply heavy damage, per GCD. DK’s lean on whip but WW stack heavy bleeds, plenty of set procs and skills that scale high enough that even 1 ticks worth of application can rival some Ulti scaling so let’s not sit here and pretend WW are hitting their targets with Nerf bats .. please, nobody believes that.

The break free response, specifically, of Fear is delayed versus every other hard CC in the game and that’s a problem that needs to be fixed.

Nobody is saying WW can’t have Fear; what I’m saying is that Fear cannot mechanically behave in combat the way that it currently does (and always have), because it’s too broken,

Most of werewolf damage is 'proc-oriented' and you can clearly see that anywhere you go. The only potential exception is Berserker with a metric ton of drawbacks (which was also nerfed pre-rework). No werewolf is doing 25-50k damage in a couple of GCDs to a player with an actual PvP build on...

I say werewolf fear can exist because it brings value to them in PvP groups, especially with nightblade detect. Who's to decide that 'fear's just too broken now' anyway- whoever screams the loudest on the forums and Reddit?

If that were true then WW wouldn't be excelling in 1vX PvP combat but, again, there's plenty of evidence that they are.

Who's to decide? How about the community at large? They have been complaining about this mechanical issue for YEARS now, it's not new, this has been a known problem for a long time it's just never been fixed. The ONLY difference now is that we have it on a world-class that can hit harder than most.

In reality, factually, the act of breaking free should have a consistency among the time it take to execute across all hard CC. So that would be Stuns, Charm, Fear, etc. .. all of them should yield a similar response curve when a player breaks free. That's not the case here; with Fear we have one that has a delayed response.

WW should have a CC, but one that functions reliably and consistently for both them and their targets.

There's no good reason to leave a mechanic broken. I get that hardcore WW mains are the only ones who would argue to keep a mechanic broken but, lets be honest, changing Fear from AoE to conal for all casters that have that particular CC isn't going to impede a skilled WW, or at least, it shouldn't.

‘some times break free hard, so nerf werewolf’

Also, the meta playstyle totally isn’t sorc and Gore with SW or anything crazy like that.

Man, all of those pure class Templar, Shattered Fate werewolves totally giving us all a run for our money /s.

Just because you type confidently doesn’t mean what’s coming from your fingers is valid and isn’t absolute, uh nvm. I’m set on this conversation with you for now, ‘agree to disagree’ as I’ve stated prior.

"Sure Jan"

It's basically Fear is broken, so fix the mechanic .. it has nothing to do with WW.

If you think the Meta right now isn't DK followed by WW then I'm sorry, you're just trolling for the sake of trying to make WW the top build.

I've been the more grounded of the community, advocating that WW not be nerfed but if people can't be objective and recognize real issues when they exist then ESO PvP might as well cut the servers off now because it will just be a continuous spiral of imbalance.

The majority of the community is calling for WW to get a hammer and while I don't agree with them, the more and more we get people trying to side pedal real issues like they don't exist is only going to play into the greater communities hands of actually getting nerfs.

WW is already getting an increase in resource cost.

Keep pretending like WW has some crazy uphill battle to play properly and more people are going to roll their eyes, likely, including the Devs.

Didn’t realize you were on Xbox NA (until literally just now by coincidence; when you joined and quickly left my/my friend’s guild)-

Level 50 achievement reached one year ago and you’re here trying to indirectly nerf werewolf by having fear catastrophically reworked as a whole (fully unnecessarily, I might add) on the platform that ‘you’re just right’ but the fear mechanic in all its iterations date your potential playtime (at least on Xbox) by up to 10x or so (a decade).

Turning Fear from an AoE into a conal effect doesn’t qualify as “catastrophically reworked”, stop being dramatic, this isn’t Broadway.

Level 50 because for a lot of time I chose not to be active on the forums, that’s not reflective of my time with the game. Further, I know how long Fear has been a complaint because I can read. Do you not think that most of us read or scan the forums before we make posts?

Again, you’re trying to say that something should just be left broken because it’s always been broken, nowhere in life has that ever been sensible.

Those are opinions, not PvP results. I can find just as many sources that cite Sorcs well below the meta in terms of class. Hyperoxies is arguably more citable than YT and they put Sorc at B tier.

Would love to see a U50 PvP tier list that puts Sorc lower than A. Hyperoxies doesn't do PvP content. But for sure lets stay on topic. The best WW's are Sorcs and its no wonder.. those class mastery passives are nuts lol

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

DK, Werewolf, and the subclasses min / max builds are meta, by far. Nobody else comes close.

Sorc def up there too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRTmMiFG_gw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpfte1Xxj28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U5ECUtZRYI

Those are opinions, not PvP results. I can find just as many sources that cite Sorcs well below the meta in terms of class. Hyperoxies is arguably more citable than YT and they put Sorc at B tier.

When skills like Force Pulse can parse higher then Frags, even with its bonus procs, and carries a woeful cast time it’s hard to make a case for Sorcs class skills.

Show me a pure Sorc who’s within the top 50 of a competitive PvP leaderboard .. I bet you good money they didn’t get there slotting skills like Frags or Curse.

But this thread is about WW. Stick to that.

So your opinion is regurgitated from a streamer? No problem!

As I said, I’m fully done and out of the conversation- thank you very much 🙏

Please don’t tag me anymore here

Give ww their own masteries and give them access to weapon passives instead (would open up a lot of "flavor" in terms of build diversity for ww). Class masteries should require a class skill to be slotted in order to function imo.

Edit: Give ww a unique grimoire from the scribing system while we're at it, would be really interesting/cool.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Give ww their own masteries and give them access to weapon passives instead (would open up a lot of "flavor" in terms of build diversity for ww). Class masteries should require a class skill to be slotted in order to function imo.

Edit: Give ww a unique grimoire from the scribing system while we're at it, would be really interesting/cool.

I've been asking for weapon passives for years now. Apparently they are too strong or some such nonsense. They need more skill options for sure. 12 skills to chose from and only 6 can be used. No other choices. They have to get everything from those skills and have to use armor sets to make up the difference.