Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

And yet you endured over a year of the Green Beam? And Warden Charm? The DK is fine, it needs to be left alone. One of two things need to happen immediately. Not years from now.
1. Remove the broken cherry picking Subclassing system that put us here in the first place
2. Complete all of the reworks IMMEDIATELY

Nothing is wrong with the DK. Or WW. The rest of the Classes are THAT BAD. Stop nerfing our characters! Everyone is tired of the same excuse, "I died, everyone else needs nerfed. Just not me." It's absolutely ridiculous. People are not going to entertain 10 more years of this.

End Subclassing now. Restore the DK to the rest of the game with 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, Dps. Use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the power level of the other 6 to the DK. Tomorrow! Not years from now like the ficticious path we are on! Then, make more Classes. This Subclassing insanity has gone on long enough. @Zos You are killing our Guilds because you refuse to eliminate and/or gut Subclassing! Wake up!

If you think dk is fine and a good point for all classes to be at then you are out of your gourd. For example, Dk has infinite sustain through their passives and core of flame. This is a game breaking problem. Sustain should mean something. I do not want to see every class trivialize the core combat mechanics and pillars of buildcrafting. This is just one part of what is wrong with dk

Sustain is an anachronism from a different game.

So infinite sustain is just okay to you?

Yes

Infinite sustain is okay. These are the people playing DK asking for it to not get nerfed.

I would prefer DK to go back to being pre-class refresh. That would be considered to be a nerf by your own standard. You have not addressed that idea. Instead you just write the same things over and over as if they are mic drops.

I'm not even sure what you are saying. People are asking for a small nerf on the burst potential, removing the infinite sustain, and you're acting like the class is going back to pre-refresh.

Basically, the form of prejudice that @NovelliESO is mistakenly trying to invoke is to write that because I wrote that I don't think sustain should matter, that it means that people are bad for not wanting DK to be nerfed.

The mistake in that thinking is that I want DK to be pre-class refresh. I don't like the class refresh idea in general. I don't like what DK is now. I don't like how it plays.

I think that everyone will agree that if DK became it's pre-class refresh, then the class as a whole, including sustain, would be significantly nerfed.

The other poster isn't correctly sepparating these ideas. Instead they are lumping ideas in together. In doing so, they don't see the nuance present and don't address their mistaken perception that just because I think sustain in ESO is an accross the board anachronism, that doesn't mean that there aren't changes that could make DK better in my opinion.

Again, zero engagement. I don't think you are bad, I think your logic and arguments are either bad faith or so far from sustainable they aren't worth engaging with the vast majority of the time. A position where you think sustain should be infinite and that isn't an issue is immensely flawed.

Nobody is making the mistake you are alluding to, that just isn't the topic of conversation and you have yet to engage with what the actual conversation was.

Nobody is going to talk about going back to pre refresh DK because that makes zero sense from a design perspective, devs already put time into it, they are doing more class refreshes, why would we talk about going back to pre refresh? It's a pointless discussion.

Word salad in an attempt to make a point, but can't engage substantively even on the most base level metric.

You've wrote that I'm commenting in bad faith multiple times. You have no evidence of this idea. To the contrary, directing such slights at others, again and again, without proof is something that someone acting in bad faith would do.

When was the last time that good players ever had a difficult time sustaining their resources? It's a non factor for many players and the pressure that it presents other players isn't that important. I'd be perfectly fine with raising the floor for anyone who does have sustain issues because, again, I don't think that sustain is an imporant game mechanic at this time and point in the games history. This is a direct point discussing the topic. You should address why the idea is "immensely flawed" and I don't think you can because games change over time. That's just how it is. The same can be said for damage that is enough to be lethal in PvP within a quick time window. Damage is going to be high sometimes. That's just how it is. At the very least be consistent and release your theory about the damage cap that all classes should have based on some objective criteria. That's what the design team does. If you don't like that, it's okay, but it's just one opinion in a game with many voices.

Of course the class isn't going back to pre-refresh. The reason I even bring that up is because of your repeated quoting of my signature which you choose to not understand. And, yes, you've made the mistake that I've indicated by directly tying the quote to the idea that the quote somehow means anything other than I think that DK died in 2025. It would be wise to listen to players, such as myself, who called out issues with the refresh. Maybe if people were not hopping on the refresh bandwaggon, they wouldn't now be complaining so hard about main DK having better tools to bring it up to parity with other class choices.

The only remotely specific thing that this thread opened on is the Pyrebrand set. You've claimed that I'm not on topic and spamming as though the DK can't be written about in a general way. Where are your comments about Pyrebrand? Can you please cut back on the "word salad?"

I think the disagreement here is being framed somewhat incorrectly, because the argument you are responding to appears to be making a distinction between the *existence* of sustain and its *practical significance*, rather than simply asserting that sustain does not exist as a mechanic.

Your objection that “infinite sustain” is not synonymous with “irrelevant sustain” is reasonable, but I don't think that resolves the other person's position by itself. A mechanic can be extraordinarily powerful in principle while having relatively little practical impact on the current gameplay environment. Whether that is actually the case with DK sustain is the substantive question, and neither side really establishes it merely by asserting that good players do or do not struggle with resources.

The “games change over time” point is also worth separating from the balance conclusion. Obviously, the game changes. The interesting question is whether those changes have made resource management sufficiently inconsequential that preserving the old assumptions about sustain is no longer appropriate. That is a legitimate argument, even if someone ultimately disagrees with its conclusion. Conversely, saying that sustain was historically important doesn't establish that it remains important today.

I also think the accusation of bad faith is particularly unnecessary here. If someone is repeatedly making an argument that you believe is internally inconsistent, the useful response is to identify the inconsistency rather than speculate about their motives. Bad-faith accusations tend to function as argumentative substitutes for actually resolving the disagreement, regardless of which side is making them.

The damage comparison doesn't strike me as especially compelling either. “Damage will be high sometimes” is descriptively true, but it doesn't establish what *ought* to constitute an acceptable damage profile. The same principle applies to sustain. The existence of a mechanic doesn't provide its own justification.

As for the refresh and the “DK died in 2025” position, I think that is clearly being offered as historical context rather than as a literal prediction that the class is going to revert. The signature may be rhetorically dramatic, but interpreting it as though the poster is advocating a return to the exact pre-refresh state seems unnecessarily literal.

And regarding Pyrebrand, I don't think the broader DK discussion is automatically off-topic simply because the original post concerned a specific set. If the argument is that Pyrebrand is problematic because of the larger resource, damage, or survivability ecosystem surrounding DK, then discussing those systems is directly relevant. If someone wants the conversation restricted exclusively to Pyrebrand's numerical values, that's a different argument.

Ultimately, from a third-party perspective, both sides seem to be arguing past one another to some degree. One side is discussing whether sustain remains an important *gameplay consideration*; the other is discussing whether the class possesses an unusually powerful *mechanical capability*. Those aren't mutually exclusive propositions.

[snip]

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

And yet you endured over a year of the Green Beam? And Warden Charm? The DK is fine, it needs to be left alone. One of two things need to happen immediately. Not years from now.
1. Remove the broken cherry picking Subclassing system that put us here in the first place
2. Complete all of the reworks IMMEDIATELY

Nothing is wrong with the DK. Or WW. The rest of the Classes are THAT BAD. Stop nerfing our characters! Everyone is tired of the same excuse, "I died, everyone else needs nerfed. Just not me." It's absolutely ridiculous. People are not going to entertain 10 more years of this.

End Subclassing now. Restore the DK to the rest of the game with 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, Dps. Use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the power level of the other 6 to the DK. Tomorrow! Not years from now like the ficticious path we are on! Then, make more Classes. This Subclassing insanity has gone on long enough. @Zos You are killing our Guilds because you refuse to eliminate and/or gut Subclassing! Wake up!

If you think dk is fine and a good point for all classes to be at then you are out of your gourd. For example, Dk has infinite sustain through their passives and core of flame. This is a game breaking problem. Sustain should mean something. I do not want to see every class trivialize the core combat mechanics and pillars of buildcrafting. This is just one part of what is wrong with dk

Sustain is an anachronism from a different game.

So infinite sustain is just okay to you?

Yes

Infinite sustain is okay. These are the people playing DK asking for it to not get nerfed.

I would prefer DK to go back to being pre-class refresh. That would be considered to be a nerf by your own standard. You have not addressed that idea. Instead you just write the same things over and over as if they are mic drops.

I'm not even sure what you are saying. People are asking for a small nerf on the burst potential, removing the infinite sustain, and you're acting like the class is going back to pre-refresh.

Basically, the form of prejudice that @NovelliESO is mistakenly trying to invoke is to write that because I wrote that I don't think sustain should matter, that it means that people are bad for not wanting DK to be nerfed.

The mistake in that thinking is that I want DK to be pre-class refresh. I don't like the class refresh idea in general. I don't like what DK is now. I don't like how it plays.

I think that everyone will agree that if DK became it's pre-class refresh, then the class as a whole, including sustain, would be significantly nerfed.

The other poster isn't correctly sepparating these ideas. Instead they are lumping ideas in together. In doing so, they don't see the nuance present and don't address their mistaken perception that just because I think sustain in ESO is an accross the board anachronism, that doesn't mean that there aren't changes that could make DK better in my opinion.

Again, zero engagement. I don't think you are bad, I think your logic and arguments are either bad faith or so far from sustainable they aren't worth engaging with the vast majority of the time. A position where you think sustain should be infinite and that isn't an issue is immensely flawed.

Nobody is making the mistake you are alluding to, that just isn't the topic of conversation and you have yet to engage with what the actual conversation was.

Nobody is going to talk about going back to pre refresh DK because that makes zero sense from a design perspective, devs already put time into it, they are doing more class refreshes, why would we talk about going back to pre refresh? It's a pointless discussion.

Word salad in an attempt to make a point, but can't engage substantively even on the most base level metric.

You've wrote that I'm commenting in bad faith multiple times. You have no evidence of this idea. To the contrary, directing such slights at others, again and again, without proof is something that someone acting in bad faith would do.

When was the last time that good players ever had a difficult time sustaining their resources? It's a non factor for many players and the pressure that it presents other players isn't that important. I'd be perfectly fine with raising the floor for anyone who does have sustain issues because, again, I don't think that sustain is an imporant game mechanic at this time and point in the games history. This is a direct point discussing the topic. You should address why the idea is "immensely flawed" and I don't think you can because games change over time. That's just how it is. The same can be said for damage that is enough to be lethal in PvP within a quick time window. Damage is going to be high sometimes. That's just how it is. At the very least be consistent and release your theory about the damage cap that all classes should have based on some objective criteria. That's what the design team does. If you don't like that, it's okay, but it's just one opinion in a game with many voices.

Of course the class isn't going back to pre-refresh. The reason I even bring that up is because of your repeated quoting of my signature which you choose to not understand. And, yes, you've made the mistake that I've indicated by directly tying the quote to the idea that the quote somehow means anything other than I think that DK died in 2025. It would be wise to listen to players, such as myself, who called out issues with the refresh. Maybe if people were not hopping on the refresh bandwaggon, they wouldn't now be complaining so hard about main DK having better tools to bring it up to parity with other class choices.

The only remotely specific thing that this thread opened on is the Pyrebrand set. You've claimed that I'm not on topic and spamming as though the DK can't be written about in a general way. Where are your comments about Pyrebrand? Can you please cut back on the "word salad?"

I quite literally said the bad faith is when you say infinite sustain is okay. Can you not read? Why are you typing so much without reading at all?

You should reread what I wrote. You have no evidence that what I've written about DK is in "bad faith." The idea of a bad faith argument isn't a get out of the discussion for free phrase. It actually has a meaning.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

And yet you endured over a year of the Green Beam? And Warden Charm? The DK is fine, it needs to be left alone. One of two things need to happen immediately. Not years from now.
1. Remove the broken cherry picking Subclassing system that put us here in the first place
2. Complete all of the reworks IMMEDIATELY

Nothing is wrong with the DK. Or WW. The rest of the Classes are THAT BAD. Stop nerfing our characters! Everyone is tired of the same excuse, "I died, everyone else needs nerfed. Just not me." It's absolutely ridiculous. People are not going to entertain 10 more years of this.

End Subclassing now. Restore the DK to the rest of the game with 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, Dps. Use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the power level of the other 6 to the DK. Tomorrow! Not years from now like the ficticious path we are on! Then, make more Classes. This Subclassing insanity has gone on long enough. @Zos You are killing our Guilds because you refuse to eliminate and/or gut Subclassing! Wake up!

If you think dk is fine and a good point for all classes to be at then you are out of your gourd. For example, Dk has infinite sustain through their passives and core of flame. This is a game breaking problem. Sustain should mean something. I do not want to see every class trivialize the core combat mechanics and pillars of buildcrafting. This is just one part of what is wrong with dk

Sustain is an anachronism from a different game.

So infinite sustain is just okay to you?

Yes

Infinite sustain is okay. These are the people playing DK asking for it to not get nerfed.

I would prefer DK to go back to being pre-class refresh. That would be considered to be a nerf by your own standard. You have not addressed that idea. Instead you just write the same things over and over as if they are mic drops.

I'm not even sure what you are saying. People are asking for a small nerf on the burst potential, removing the infinite sustain, and you're acting like the class is going back to pre-refresh.

Basically, the form of prejudice that @NovelliESO is mistakenly trying to invoke is to write that because I wrote that I don't think sustain should matter, that it means that people are bad for not wanting DK to be nerfed.

The mistake in that thinking is that I want DK to be pre-class refresh. I don't like the class refresh idea in general. I don't like what DK is now. I don't like how it plays.

I think that everyone will agree that if DK became it's pre-class refresh, then the class as a whole, including sustain, would be significantly nerfed.

The other poster isn't correctly sepparating these ideas. Instead they are lumping ideas in together. In doing so, they don't see the nuance present and don't address their mistaken perception that just because I think sustain in ESO is an accross the board anachronism, that doesn't mean that there aren't changes that could make DK better in my opinion.

Again, zero engagement. I don't think you are bad, I think your logic and arguments are either bad faith or so far from sustainable they aren't worth engaging with the vast majority of the time. A position where you think sustain should be infinite and that isn't an issue is immensely flawed.

Nobody is making the mistake you are alluding to, that just isn't the topic of conversation and you have yet to engage with what the actual conversation was.

Nobody is going to talk about going back to pre refresh DK because that makes zero sense from a design perspective, devs already put time into it, they are doing more class refreshes, why would we talk about going back to pre refresh? It's a pointless discussion.

Word salad in an attempt to make a point, but can't engage substantively even on the most base level metric.

You've wrote that I'm commenting in bad faith multiple times. You have no evidence of this idea. To the contrary, directing such slights at others, again and again, without proof is something that someone acting in bad faith would do.

When was the last time that good players ever had a difficult time sustaining their resources? It's a non factor for many players and the pressure that it presents other players isn't that important. I'd be perfectly fine with raising the floor for anyone who does have sustain issues because, again, I don't think that sustain is an imporant game mechanic at this time and point in the games history. This is a direct point discussing the topic. You should address why the idea is "immensely flawed" and I don't think you can because games change over time. That's just how it is. The same can be said for damage that is enough to be lethal in PvP within a quick time window. Damage is going to be high sometimes. That's just how it is. At the very least be consistent and release your theory about the damage cap that all classes should have based on some objective criteria. That's what the design team does. If you don't like that, it's okay, but it's just one opinion in a game with many voices.

Of course the class isn't going back to pre-refresh. The reason I even bring that up is because of your repeated quoting of my signature which you choose to not understand. And, yes, you've made the mistake that I've indicated by directly tying the quote to the idea that the quote somehow means anything other than I think that DK died in 2025. It would be wise to listen to players, such as myself, who called out issues with the refresh. Maybe if people were not hopping on the refresh bandwaggon, they wouldn't now be complaining so hard about main DK having better tools to bring it up to parity with other class choices.

The only remotely specific thing that this thread opened on is the Pyrebrand set. You've claimed that I'm not on topic and spamming as though the DK can't be written about in a general way. Where are your comments about Pyrebrand? Can you please cut back on the "word salad?"

I quite literally said the bad faith is when you say infinite sustain is okay. Can you not read? Why are you typing so much without reading at all?

You should reread what I wrote. You have no evidence that what I've written about DK is in "bad faith." The idea of a bad faith argument isn't a get out of the discussion for free phrase. It actually has a meaning.

You should google what bad faith means. Anyone arguing that infinite sustain is fine in ESO is arguing in bad faith.

I Googled it and found a Wikipedia article on the term - "Bad faith (Latin: mala fides) is a sustained form of deception which consists of entertaining or pretending to entertain one set of feelings while acting as if influenced by another."

Nowhere in that description does it state anything about what someones opinions about sustain in the Elder Scrolls Online must be in order to constitute good or bad faith. What is your evidence that I've written in bad faith?

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

And yet you endured over a year of the Green Beam? And Warden Charm? The DK is fine, it needs to be left alone. One of two things need to happen immediately. Not years from now.
1. Remove the broken cherry picking Subclassing system that put us here in the first place
2. Complete all of the reworks IMMEDIATELY

Nothing is wrong with the DK. Or WW. The rest of the Classes are THAT BAD. Stop nerfing our characters! Everyone is tired of the same excuse, "I died, everyone else needs nerfed. Just not me." It's absolutely ridiculous. People are not going to entertain 10 more years of this.

End Subclassing now. Restore the DK to the rest of the game with 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, Dps. Use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the power level of the other 6 to the DK. Tomorrow! Not years from now like the ficticious path we are on! Then, make more Classes. This Subclassing insanity has gone on long enough. @Zos You are killing our Guilds because you refuse to eliminate and/or gut Subclassing! Wake up!

If you think dk is fine and a good point for all classes to be at then you are out of your gourd. For example, Dk has infinite sustain through their passives and core of flame. This is a game breaking problem. Sustain should mean something. I do not want to see every class trivialize the core combat mechanics and pillars of buildcrafting. This is just one part of what is wrong with dk

Sustain is an anachronism from a different game.

So infinite sustain is just okay to you?

Yes

Infinite sustain is okay. These are the people playing DK asking for it to not get nerfed.

I would prefer DK to go back to being pre-class refresh. That would be considered to be a nerf by your own standard. You have not addressed that idea. Instead you just write the same things over and over as if they are mic drops.

I'm not even sure what you are saying. People are asking for a small nerf on the burst potential, removing the infinite sustain, and you're acting like the class is going back to pre-refresh.

Basically, the form of prejudice that @NovelliESO is mistakenly trying to invoke is to write that because I wrote that I don't think sustain should matter, that it means that people are bad for not wanting DK to be nerfed.

The mistake in that thinking is that I want DK to be pre-class refresh. I don't like the class refresh idea in general. I don't like what DK is now. I don't like how it plays.

I think that everyone will agree that if DK became it's pre-class refresh, then the class as a whole, including sustain, would be significantly nerfed.

The other poster isn't correctly sepparating these ideas. Instead they are lumping ideas in together. In doing so, they don't see the nuance present and don't address their mistaken perception that just because I think sustain in ESO is an accross the board anachronism, that doesn't mean that there aren't changes that could make DK better in my opinion.

Again, zero engagement. I don't think you are bad, I think your logic and arguments are either bad faith or so far from sustainable they aren't worth engaging with the vast majority of the time. A position where you think sustain should be infinite and that isn't an issue is immensely flawed.

Nobody is making the mistake you are alluding to, that just isn't the topic of conversation and you have yet to engage with what the actual conversation was.

Nobody is going to talk about going back to pre refresh DK because that makes zero sense from a design perspective, devs already put time into it, they are doing more class refreshes, why would we talk about going back to pre refresh? It's a pointless discussion.

Word salad in an attempt to make a point, but can't engage substantively even on the most base level metric.

You've wrote that I'm commenting in bad faith multiple times. You have no evidence of this idea. To the contrary, directing such slights at others, again and again, without proof is something that someone acting in bad faith would do.

When was the last time that good players ever had a difficult time sustaining their resources? It's a non factor for many players and the pressure that it presents other players isn't that important. I'd be perfectly fine with raising the floor for anyone who does have sustain issues because, again, I don't think that sustain is an imporant game mechanic at this time and point in the games history. This is a direct point discussing the topic. You should address why the idea is "immensely flawed" and I don't think you can because games change over time. That's just how it is. The same can be said for damage that is enough to be lethal in PvP within a quick time window. Damage is going to be high sometimes. That's just how it is. At the very least be consistent and release your theory about the damage cap that all classes should have based on some objective criteria. That's what the design team does. If you don't like that, it's okay, but it's just one opinion in a game with many voices.

Of course the class isn't going back to pre-refresh. The reason I even bring that up is because of your repeated quoting of my signature which you choose to not understand. And, yes, you've made the mistake that I've indicated by directly tying the quote to the idea that the quote somehow means anything other than I think that DK died in 2025. It would be wise to listen to players, such as myself, who called out issues with the refresh. Maybe if people were not hopping on the refresh bandwaggon, they wouldn't now be complaining so hard about main DK having better tools to bring it up to parity with other class choices.

The only remotely specific thing that this thread opened on is the Pyrebrand set. You've claimed that I'm not on topic and spamming as though the DK can't be written about in a general way. Where are your comments about Pyrebrand? Can you please cut back on the "word salad?"

I quite literally said the bad faith is when you say infinite sustain is okay. Can you not read? Why are you typing so much without reading at all?

You should reread what I wrote. You have no evidence that what I've written about DK is in "bad faith." The idea of a bad faith argument isn't a get out of the discussion for free phrase. It actually has a meaning.

You should google what bad faith means. Anyone arguing that infinite sustain is fine in ESO is arguing in bad faith.

I Googled it and found a Wikipedia article on the term - "Bad faith (Latin: mala fides) is a sustained form of deception which consists of entertaining or pretending to entertain one set of feelings while acting as if influenced by another."

Nowhere in that description does it state anything about what someones opinions about sustain in the Elder Scrolls Online must be in order to constitute good or bad faith. What is your evidence that I've written in bad faith?

Because nobody in good faith thinks a class should have infinite sustain. You trying to argue that you do constantly is just further evidence of your bad faith.

I'm telling you that I don't care if there is infinite sustain. This is a genuine opinion.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

And yet you endured over a year of the Green Beam? And Warden Charm? The DK is fine, it needs to be left alone. One of two things need to happen immediately. Not years from now.
1. Remove the broken cherry picking Subclassing system that put us here in the first place
2. Complete all of the reworks IMMEDIATELY

Nothing is wrong with the DK. Or WW. The rest of the Classes are THAT BAD. Stop nerfing our characters! Everyone is tired of the same excuse, "I died, everyone else needs nerfed. Just not me." It's absolutely ridiculous. People are not going to entertain 10 more years of this.

End Subclassing now. Restore the DK to the rest of the game with 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, Dps. Use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the power level of the other 6 to the DK. Tomorrow! Not years from now like the ficticious path we are on! Then, make more Classes. This Subclassing insanity has gone on long enough. @Zos You are killing our Guilds because you refuse to eliminate and/or gut Subclassing! Wake up!

If you think dk is fine and a good point for all classes to be at then you are out of your gourd. For example, Dk has infinite sustain through their passives and core of flame. This is a game breaking problem. Sustain should mean something. I do not want to see every class trivialize the core combat mechanics and pillars of buildcrafting. This is just one part of what is wrong with dk

Sustain is an anachronism from a different game.

So infinite sustain is just okay to you?

Yes

Infinite sustain is okay. These are the people playing DK asking for it to not get nerfed.

I would prefer DK to go back to being pre-class refresh. That would be considered to be a nerf by your own standard. You have not addressed that idea. Instead you just write the same things over and over as if they are mic drops.

I'm not even sure what you are saying. People are asking for a small nerf on the burst potential, removing the infinite sustain, and you're acting like the class is going back to pre-refresh.

Basically, the form of prejudice that @NovelliESO is mistakenly trying to invoke is to write that because I wrote that I don't think sustain should matter, that it means that people are bad for not wanting DK to be nerfed.

The mistake in that thinking is that I want DK to be pre-class refresh. I don't like the class refresh idea in general. I don't like what DK is now. I don't like how it plays.

I think that everyone will agree that if DK became it's pre-class refresh, then the class as a whole, including sustain, would be significantly nerfed.

The other poster isn't correctly sepparating these ideas. Instead they are lumping ideas in together. In doing so, they don't see the nuance present and don't address their mistaken perception that just because I think sustain in ESO is an accross the board anachronism, that doesn't mean that there aren't changes that could make DK better in my opinion.

Again, zero engagement. I don't think you are bad, I think your logic and arguments are either bad faith or so far from sustainable they aren't worth engaging with the vast majority of the time. A position where you think sustain should be infinite and that isn't an issue is immensely flawed.

Nobody is making the mistake you are alluding to, that just isn't the topic of conversation and you have yet to engage with what the actual conversation was.

Nobody is going to talk about going back to pre refresh DK because that makes zero sense from a design perspective, devs already put time into it, they are doing more class refreshes, why would we talk about going back to pre refresh? It's a pointless discussion.

Word salad in an attempt to make a point, but can't engage substantively even on the most base level metric.

You've wrote that I'm commenting in bad faith multiple times. You have no evidence of this idea. To the contrary, directing such slights at others, again and again, without proof is something that someone acting in bad faith would do.

When was the last time that good players ever had a difficult time sustaining their resources? It's a non factor for many players and the pressure that it presents other players isn't that important. I'd be perfectly fine with raising the floor for anyone who does have sustain issues because, again, I don't think that sustain is an imporant game mechanic at this time and point in the games history. This is a direct point discussing the topic. You should address why the idea is "immensely flawed" and I don't think you can because games change over time. That's just how it is. The same can be said for damage that is enough to be lethal in PvP within a quick time window. Damage is going to be high sometimes. That's just how it is. At the very least be consistent and release your theory about the damage cap that all classes should have based on some objective criteria. That's what the design team does. If you don't like that, it's okay, but it's just one opinion in a game with many voices.

Of course the class isn't going back to pre-refresh. The reason I even bring that up is because of your repeated quoting of my signature which you choose to not understand. And, yes, you've made the mistake that I've indicated by directly tying the quote to the idea that the quote somehow means anything other than I think that DK died in 2025. It would be wise to listen to players, such as myself, who called out issues with the refresh. Maybe if people were not hopping on the refresh bandwaggon, they wouldn't now be complaining so hard about main DK having better tools to bring it up to parity with other class choices.

The only remotely specific thing that this thread opened on is the Pyrebrand set. You've claimed that I'm not on topic and spamming as though the DK can't be written about in a general way. Where are your comments about Pyrebrand? Can you please cut back on the "word salad?"

A part of me still long for pre-refresh DK because it worked better imho (like, Power Lash proc wasn't a mini game of its own and Corrosive had ult gen) and that would probably shake off all the meta hoppers off of one of my favorite 4 classes.

Also, I agree that the sustain looks to be not an important mechanic in this vision by ZOS. It is why I advocate for ZOS to actually just minimize sustain issues for all classes right now to fill the gap between the reworked and old. Doing so would make playing these classes bearable until their actual rework releases. Given that Sorc is doing quite well with its sustain help Class Mastery, I can only guess that other classes will feel a lot better once sustain is not as huge of a problem for them as well (except for Templar but that is a bit of different issue).

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

And yet you endured over a year of the Green Beam? And Warden Charm? The DK is fine, it needs to be left alone. One of two things need to happen immediately. Not years from now.
1. Remove the broken cherry picking Subclassing system that put us here in the first place
2. Complete all of the reworks IMMEDIATELY

Nothing is wrong with the DK. Or WW. The rest of the Classes are THAT BAD. Stop nerfing our characters! Everyone is tired of the same excuse, "I died, everyone else needs nerfed. Just not me." It's absolutely ridiculous. People are not going to entertain 10 more years of this.

End Subclassing now. Restore the DK to the rest of the game with 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, Dps. Use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the power level of the other 6 to the DK. Tomorrow! Not years from now like the ficticious path we are on! Then, make more Classes. This Subclassing insanity has gone on long enough. @Zos You are killing our Guilds because you refuse to eliminate and/or gut Subclassing! Wake up!

If you think dk is fine and a good point for all classes to be at then you are out of your gourd. For example, Dk has infinite sustain through their passives and core of flame. This is a game breaking problem. Sustain should mean something. I do not want to see every class trivialize the core combat mechanics and pillars of buildcrafting. This is just one part of what is wrong with dk

Sustain is an anachronism from a different game.

So infinite sustain is just okay to you?

Yes

Infinite sustain is okay. These are the people playing DK asking for it to not get nerfed.

I would prefer DK to go back to being pre-class refresh. That would be considered to be a nerf by your own standard. You have not addressed that idea. Instead you just write the same things over and over as if they are mic drops.

I'm not even sure what you are saying. People are asking for a small nerf on the burst potential, removing the infinite sustain, and you're acting like the class is going back to pre-refresh.

Basically, the form of prejudice that @NovelliESO is mistakenly trying to invoke is to write that because I wrote that I don't think sustain should matter, that it means that people are bad for not wanting DK to be nerfed.

The mistake in that thinking is that I want DK to be pre-class refresh. I don't like the class refresh idea in general. I don't like what DK is now. I don't like how it plays.

I think that everyone will agree that if DK became it's pre-class refresh, then the class as a whole, including sustain, would be significantly nerfed.

The other poster isn't correctly sepparating these ideas. Instead they are lumping ideas in together. In doing so, they don't see the nuance present and don't address their mistaken perception that just because I think sustain in ESO is an accross the board anachronism, that doesn't mean that there aren't changes that could make DK better in my opinion.

Again, zero engagement. I don't think you are bad, I think your logic and arguments are either bad faith or so far from sustainable they aren't worth engaging with the vast majority of the time. A position where you think sustain should be infinite and that isn't an issue is immensely flawed.

Nobody is making the mistake you are alluding to, that just isn't the topic of conversation and you have yet to engage with what the actual conversation was.

Nobody is going to talk about going back to pre refresh DK because that makes zero sense from a design perspective, devs already put time into it, they are doing more class refreshes, why would we talk about going back to pre refresh? It's a pointless discussion.

Word salad in an attempt to make a point, but can't engage substantively even on the most base level metric.

You've wrote that I'm commenting in bad faith multiple times. You have no evidence of this idea. To the contrary, directing such slights at others, again and again, without proof is something that someone acting in bad faith would do.

When was the last time that good players ever had a difficult time sustaining their resources? It's a non factor for many players and the pressure that it presents other players isn't that important. I'd be perfectly fine with raising the floor for anyone who does have sustain issues because, again, I don't think that sustain is an imporant game mechanic at this time and point in the games history. This is a direct point discussing the topic. You should address why the idea is "immensely flawed" and I don't think you can because games change over time. That's just how it is. The same can be said for damage that is enough to be lethal in PvP within a quick time window. Damage is going to be high sometimes. That's just how it is. At the very least be consistent and release your theory about the damage cap that all classes should have based on some objective criteria. That's what the design team does. If you don't like that, it's okay, but it's just one opinion in a game with many voices.

Of course the class isn't going back to pre-refresh. The reason I even bring that up is because of your repeated quoting of my signature which you choose to not understand. And, yes, you've made the mistake that I've indicated by directly tying the quote to the idea that the quote somehow means anything other than I think that DK died in 2025. It would be wise to listen to players, such as myself, who called out issues with the refresh. Maybe if people were not hopping on the refresh bandwaggon, they wouldn't now be complaining so hard about main DK having better tools to bring it up to parity with other class choices.

The only remotely specific thing that this thread opened on is the Pyrebrand set. You've claimed that I'm not on topic and spamming as though the DK can't be written about in a general way. Where are your comments about Pyrebrand? Can you please cut back on the "word salad?"

A part of me still long for pre-refresh DK because it worked better imho (like, Power Lash proc wasn't a mini game of its own and Corrosive had ult gen) and that would probably shake off all the meta hoppers off of one of my favorite 4 classes.

Also, I agree that the sustain looks to be not an important mechanic in this vision by ZOS. It is why I advocate for ZOS to actually just minimize sustain issues for all classes right now to fill the gap between the reworked and old. Doing so would make playing these classes bearable until their actual rework releases. Given that Sorc is doing quite well with its sustain help Class Mastery, I can only guess that other classes will feel a lot better once sustain is not as huge of a problem for them as well (except for Templar but that is a bit of different issue).

Most classes still struggle and have to build around sustain. Sorc is doing okay with a broken passive and DK has infinite sustain. They nerfed the costs on WW so clearly they do care about sustain.