CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Subclassing caused this mess. DK doesn't need nerfed, remove Subclass. It is a broken cherry picking system. It can not and will not ever be balanced. It needs to be removed. They cannot deliver the refreshes that are only happening and necessary because of Subclassing. Remove it in a Single update and put the DK back to 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, DPS. And then use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the other 6 normal Classes to the DK power level. It can be done TOMORROW. Not in YEARS like 2030 and beyond. This is happening because the greedy absolute minority in PvP thought it would be cool to have 3 of the same skill lines types. And it isn't. We have had over a year of the green beam and the worst balance in 11 years because of this greedy stupidity. Congratulations, you have, are and will probably sink this game. How has, is and will this ever bring more people to the game? You are driving away the core customer base, which is the other 20k people outside of GH btw. They are leaving the game.

Completely non responsive. Remove subclassing and DK becomes even stronger by comparison. What are you even talking about?

To get back on track because this people have attempted to derail this thread.

None of the proposed changes on the opposing end are any good, there is no reason to buff every single other class or remove subclassing entirely just because DK is overperforming .

Nerf the damage on whip, even if it only has to be in PvP, remove, to some extent, the sustain on CoF. Do these two things and DK is in a much better spot, if it still overperforming then do something about wings because it is also extremely strong, but the initial two changes would make it much more in line but still stronger than any other class, so the rework would still be a success. The silence from support on this is very interesting.

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

To get back on track because this people have attempted to derail this thread.

None of the proposed changes on the opposing end are any good, there is no reason to buff every single other class or remove subclassing entirely just because DK is overperforming .

Nerf the damage on whip, even if it only has to be in PvP, remove, to some extent, the sustain on CoF. Do these two things and DK is in a much better spot, if it still overperforming then do something about wings because it is also extremely strong, but the initial two changes would make it much more in line but still stronger than any other class, so the rework would still be a success. The silence from support on this is very interesting.

They're great and if you survey all of the game and not just PvP and PC, you will see that. What is it that you think we are supposed to be playing then? It's clearly not my Warden. It's been gutted, both of its ultimates, it's Class Passive, Shattered Path, it's Charm, it's Arctic Wind. It clearly, according to you isn't the Dragonknight or WW. We might as well gut Sorcerer now. Because you're proposed changes will have THAT everywhere. What is it you think we are supposed to be playing then? Certainly not our characters, because yours died? Don't be ridiculous. Get better. Stop nerfing our characters. We all need to start helping the entire Realm before there isn't one. And if these kinds of things continue, there isn't going to be one.

This is an absurd slippery-slope argument. Nobody is saying DK, Warden, WW, Sorcerer, or any other class should be gutted. We're talking about one specific ability that has a tooltip higher than direct-damage ultimates.

If your argument is that any nerf to an ability means the class is somehow no longer playable, then balance discussions become completely impossible. Classes can remain fun and viable while individual abilities are adjusted when they are clearly overtuned.

And comparing a targeted reduction to molten whip's damage bonus per stack under battle spirit to supposedly "gutting" entire classes is completely disingenuous. You're taking a very specific PvP balance change and extrapolating it into the destruction of the entire game.

Nobody is asking you to stop playing your character. We're asking for one overtuned ability to be brought back into a reasonable range. If your definition of "helping the entire Realm" means refusing to nerf anything you personally enjoy, that's not balance.

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.

Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.

And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.

Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.

If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.

Yeah zos doesn't want gankers to be one shotting people but if are completely fine with a dk one shotting people for some reason. I really don't understand the approach here - they seem to not want to nerf dk post class rework but we're not going to get the second class rework until 2027. Why are we just allowing dk to be completely overpowered comparatively to every other class when it could just be adjusted down then adjusted back up when other classes finally can compete.

CannedChicken wrote: »

forum_propagandist wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.

Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.

And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.

Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.

If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.

Yeah zos doesn't want gankers to be one shotting people but if are completely fine with a dk one shotting people for some reason. I really don't understand the approach here - they seem to not want to nerf dk post class rework but we're not going to get the second class rework until 2027. Why are we just allowing dk to be completely overpowered comparatively to every other class when it could just be adjusted down then adjusted back up when other classes finally can compete.

Exactly. That's the part that doesn't make much sense to me either.

If ZOS is actively trying to move away from extreme gank-style one-shots, there's no reason to treat the exact same outcome as acceptable simply because it's coming from DK. Molten whip being capable of one-shot levels of burst doesn't become healthy just because DK is the class that happens to be doing it.

And nobody is asking them to permanently gut DK. If the concern is that other classes aren't currently competitive, then adjust DK down to a reasonable level now and revisit the numbers when the other class reworks happen. You don't need to leave an overtuned ability untouched for another year just because the rest of the game's balance isn't finished.

Balance doesn't have to be permanent. You can bring DK's outliers down now and adjust it again later when the other classes catch up.

those one shot whips i learned to either dodge roll or block and for some reason i survive. i learned that from seeing a couple of unkillable guys farming dk's. block and dodge roll helps!

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In this game people used to complain everyone's too tanky and the tank meta is boring. Then they complain about balance and site other games like overwatch or whatever, and in those games they have mechanics that work like rock paper scissors etc where there are in fact scenarios where if pulled off, you'll die no matter what

Every time something is introduced in this game to handle the tank meta people complain until it is gone, like hrothgars being over nerfed for instance, tanky players were dropping like flies. All they had to do was fix the bugged instances and things would have been fine.

The game needs tank buster mechanics like corrosive to have a healthy pvp environment and not be boring. Corrosive needs to stay, if you want something nerfed look at the dk class masteries, and buff other class masteries. Thats what they're for in the first place and giving dk any masteries is the only thing I agree on as being too much, doesnt make sense when dk is the only class that got a rework.

The rest of this is meaningless complaining

You can't argue against a tank meta and defend corrosive at the same time. what other ultimate limits incoming damage to a small percentage of your hp? Mechanics that can encourage a tank and spank playstyle are very bad for balance. The fact that you can use that ult to buff an already insane skill like whip to hit 40k while taking so little damage is just nuts. DK has always been one of if not the tankiest class in the game anyways, it's part of the problem.

You won't convince players that think DK was bad for a period longer than the 6 months ZOS made DoTs not stack from the same source (effectively nerfed DKs in PvP and PvE that ran mag builds). OH, wait, some still think taking reflect off wings was unfair even though at the time that reflect completely shut down all mag builds in the game.

Yeah, no getting through to them.

His arguments don’t even make sense, and he never seems willing to engage with anyone in good faith. A lot of the time, he ends up arguing against points he made up himself instead of actually responding to the person he’s quoting. At this point, it just comes across as him defending DK because he enjoys how strong the character is and doesn’t want to see it nerfed.

You would think that someone that claims to be a "god pvper" would understand the basics like stacking more resist doesn't work versus corrosive.

crit resistance helps against corrosive

And no one claimed they're god tier pvpers lol, i did say i know how to use block when needed without perma blocking tho, if that equates to saying im god tier then yall need to raise your bars higher

Nothing will stop a stealth build coming out with leap and whip

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

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CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.

Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.

And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.

Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.

If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.

They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.

I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt

What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.

Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the same

What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky

People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills

Completely false. Whip damage literally is more than double on my glass build from what it was pre-rework, meaning the scaling on the skill increased not the sets. I can wear the same exact sets and the power of it is literally doubled what it was before. There was 0 reason for the change.

Adrastus wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Adrastus wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

forum_propagandist wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.

Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.

And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.

Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.

If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.

Yeah zos doesn't want gankers to be one shotting people but if are completely fine with a dk one shotting people for some reason. I really don't understand the approach here - they seem to not want to nerf dk post class rework but we're not going to get the second class rework until 2027. Why are we just allowing dk to be completely overpowered comparatively to every other class when it could just be adjusted down then adjusted back up when other classes finally can compete.

Exactly. That's the part that doesn't make much sense to me either.

If ZOS is actively trying to move away from extreme gank-style one-shots, there's no reason to treat the exact same outcome as acceptable simply because it's coming from DK. Molten whip being capable of one-shot levels of burst doesn't become healthy just because DK is the class that happens to be doing it.

And nobody is asking them to permanently gut DK. If the concern is that other classes aren't currently competitive, then adjust DK down to a reasonable level now and revisit the numbers when the other class reworks happen. You don't need to leave an overtuned ability untouched for another year just because the rest of the game's balance isn't finished.

Balance doesn't have to be permanent. You can bring DK's outliers down now and adjust it again later when the other classes catch up.

those one shot whips i learned to either dodge roll or block and for some reason i survive. i learned that from seeing a couple of unkillable guys farming dk's. block and dodge roll helps!

Do you block and roll dodge every instance of damage? Do you never die? This isn't actual engagement with anything and just makes your point look bad. Everyone knows you can block and roll dodge, you aren't making the point you think you are.

naw i die all the time i just dont get 1 shot from whips unless onslaught but when you get onslaught you kinda know to dodge or block their next upcoming skill.....??? i dont mind dying in this game lmao

Okay, and what do you do when you get CCed and have to eat one global afterwards and that global is a whip that deals that much damage? Oh, congrats, you died.

People like you are just a waste to engage with the vast majority of the time, you always try to explain something as a L2P issue while lacking any logic when actually engaging with the issue at hand.

chase the broken class/item its all they got left to get engagement an sell cosmetics if they had anything else they wouldn't of slow dripped the class changes an done it all at once. the only way it changes if u speak with your wallet an time

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

To get back on track because this people have attempted to derail this thread.

None of the proposed changes on the opposing end are any good, there is no reason to buff every single other class or remove subclassing entirely just because DK is overperforming .

Nerf the damage on whip, even if it only has to be in PvP, remove, to some extent, the sustain on CoF. Do these two things and DK is in a much better spot, if it still overperforming then do something about wings because it is also extremely strong, but the initial two changes would make it much more in line but still stronger than any other class, so the rework would still be a success. The silence from support on this is very interesting.

They're great and if you survey all of the game and not just PvP and PC, you will see that. What is it that you think we are supposed to be playing then? It's clearly not my Warden. It's been gutted, both of its ultimates, it's Class Passive, Shattered Path, it's Charm, it's Arctic Wind. It clearly, according to you isn't the Dragonknight or WW. We might as well gut Sorcerer now. Because you're proposed changes will have THAT everywhere. What is it you think we are supposed to be playing then? Certainly not our characters, because yours died? Don't be ridiculous. Get better. Stop nerfing our characters. We all need to start helping the entire Realm before there isn't one. And if these kinds of things continue, there isn't going to be one.

Shattered path nerf was to target recursive builds with burn stacking in PvE, not PvP. You could kill higher IA bosses in less than 10 seconds with the old shattered path before it was adjusted (and presumably patched to stop that, even though WW did At the same time they decided to turn it off in PvP because it was also problematic there

Adrastus wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Adrastus wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

forum_propagandist wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.

Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.

And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.

Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.

If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.

Yeah zos doesn't want gankers to be one shotting people but if are completely fine with a dk one shotting people for some reason. I really don't understand the approach here - they seem to not want to nerf dk post class rework but we're not going to get the second class rework until 2027. Why are we just allowing dk to be completely overpowered comparatively to every other class when it could just be adjusted down then adjusted back up when other classes finally can compete.

Exactly. That's the part that doesn't make much sense to me either.

If ZOS is actively trying to move away from extreme gank-style one-shots, there's no reason to treat the exact same outcome as acceptable simply because it's coming from DK. Molten whip being capable of one-shot levels of burst doesn't become healthy just because DK is the class that happens to be doing it.

And nobody is asking them to permanently gut DK. If the concern is that other classes aren't currently competitive, then adjust DK down to a reasonable level now and revisit the numbers when the other class reworks happen. You don't need to leave an overtuned ability untouched for another year just because the rest of the game's balance isn't finished.

Balance doesn't have to be permanent. You can bring DK's outliers down now and adjust it again later when the other classes catch up.

those one shot whips i learned to either dodge roll or block and for some reason i survive. i learned that from seeing a couple of unkillable guys farming dk's. block and dodge roll helps!

Do you block and roll dodge every instance of damage? Do you never die? This isn't actual engagement with anything and just makes your point look bad. Everyone knows you can block and roll dodge, you aren't making the point you think you are.

naw i die all the time i just dont get 1 shot from whips unless onslaught but when you get onslaught you kinda know to dodge or block their next upcoming skill.....??? i dont mind dying in this game lmao

You forgot the part where you can just pop corrosive because you're a DK. Don't forget to mention that point, it's an important one. To mention that the only reliable counter that exists is actually using the same exact skill that causes the problem.

I use a glass build and sure I can avoid dying to DKs. I even did it on my low level DC. But this doesn't discount anything when a majority of players also have terrible lag and performance that makes it impossible for them to do the same, or may have have physical limitations that cause them to not be able to react.

I don't think it's skillful to one shot anyone or kill someone without them having a chance to fight back. It's why I don't run a bomber and I don't gank unless it's for trolling purposes.

That ZOS is addressing cloak ganking when DK can do the same without cloak is ridiculous and makes zero sense. It's simply not convincing to argue otherwise or point to a skill argument if even ZOS is taking action against these kind of builds.

And also, DK itself isn't balanced. Where are all the DoT DKs that existed before the rework? They are nowhere to be found. None, not one can be found in PvP. And that's because the rework completely missed the mark and wasn't balanced at all to address DK's issues (which is why we still see PvE complaints).

ZOS needs to rotate power out of all of these burst skills and distribute it among the other skills. That would actually be "balanced" but of course, PvP DKs do not want that.

The rework did nothing great for PvE, if that was the target, because it just increased burst and delayed damage: something desired in PvP, but abhorred in PvE.

If whip is that powerful as a spammable because ZOS wanted to make up for the change in damage output in PvE, it makes zero sense to me because it means they've essentially taken a class that had options before and pigeonholed it into a specific path.

But of course, the "pro" DKs like you and the other defenders will disagree because the changes exclusively benefit your PvP experience and the fact that DoTs have all but vanished from PvP completely. But it doesn't discount reality.