[Request/Discussion] ZOS, with the upcoming Sorcerer refresh

NxJoeyD · August 8

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Crystal Shard becomes "Void Fracture" (getting us away from the crystals)

Base skill:
Void Fracture: Conjure void energy from the realm of Oblivion to blast your enemy with for (0.10350 MaxStat + 1.0868) Magic Damage. Every 5th cast of this skill will apply Minor Brittle to the target for 3 seconds.

Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka

*Recommended that the current "bonus proc" of Frags instant animation & style be used as the baseline for this skill and the Magicka morph of this skill.

Morph 1:
Void Shatter: Conjure void energy from the realm of Oblivion to blast your enemy with for (0.10350 MaxStat + 1.0868) Magic Damage. Every 5th cast of this skill will apply Minor Brittle to the target for 3 seconds.

This skill gains an additional 10% chance to apply the Overcharged status effect and increases the damage from the Overcharged status effect by 10% (calculated off base status scale. So if an overcharge proc would normally scale to 1,300 based on stats then the bonus from this skill would add 130 points).

Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka

*This skill would use the same instant cast animation as the base skill.

Morph 2:
Void Blades: Conjure Daedric blades from the realm of Oblivion to slash your target for (0.102997 MaxStat + 1.07601) Physical damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Casting again on the same target increases the range of this skill to 9m for 10 seconds.

When you deal damage with this ability you heal for (0.15000 Health (Resource)) and an additional (0.050000 Health (Resource)) per second for 5 seconds.

Cast: Instant
Range: 7m
Cost: 2,400 Stamina

*Recommended this skill use a modified version of the Twin Slashes animation but enable the conjured daggers to include a purple aura glowing around them.

Interesting idea, but I would do away with the magic damage altogether and just keep something like Overcharged status as a nod to it being magic damage before the rework. Something more like:

Base skill:
Arcane Jolt
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka

Blast your target with Daedric infused Lightning, dealing X Shock Damage. Hitting a target affected by the Concussed Status inflicts the Overcharged Status effect.

Visuals would be similar to the Storm Projection Lightning but with the Force Shock Onyx Black skill style colouring to tie in Sorcerers Daedric sub-theme. Overcharged is there as a nod to shards/frags being magic damage originally, but removed the magic damage since Sorc is the main source of lightning theme in ESO and the passives synergize with Shock/Physical damage.
Base damage values are the same as a regular ranged instant spammable such as Force Shock.

Morph 1:
Echoing Jolt
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka

Blast your target with Daedric infused Lightning, dealing X Shock Damage. Hitting a target affected by the Concussed Status inflicts the Overcharged and Sundered Status effects and causes this ability to chain to a nearby target twice (cannot chain to the same target twice and bonus Status effects applied only to original target).

Morph now allows the ability to chain to up to 2 nearby targets, granting some much needed cleave to Sorc and giving a reason to build into the shock damage status effect.

Morph 2:
Gale Strike
Cast: Instant
Range: 7m/Self
Cost: 2300 Stamina

Strike your target with the force of a Storm, dealing X Physical Damage. Hitting a target affected by the Sundered Status inflicts the Overcharged and Concussed Status effects. If this ability is cast without a target, you instead infuse your next Light or Heavy attack to deal Y Physical Damage.

This morph is the stamina morph, dealing physical damage, and giving a reason to build around Sundered, but using it while not targeting anything causes it to function like current crystal weapon, giving it a way to be used as either a traditional spammable that hits a target, or keeping the current CW playstyle. X is standard melee spammable damage, Y is ranged spammable damage since it can be used with a bow/staff attack from range and potentially delayed to time it with another GCD like current CW can.

The reason for the double status effects is because the ability has no built in extra damage or self-buffing modifiers that other class spammables have:
- surprise attack (off-balance + either guaranted crit + sundered or passive speed and percent modifier)
- skulls (massive percent increase on 3rd cast)
- flame lash (spec bow damage that is AoE with a heal if used on off-balanced target)
- runeblades (percent bonus per crux and percent increase or crit chance for each projectile)
- dive (weapon/spell damage bonus + off-balance)
It was also to tie in the theme of Storms for Sorcs 2 damage types Physical (Wind) and Shock (Lightning).

Also note that it no longer has the cost reduction secondary effect that both morphs currently have or the bonus high damage rng proc that frags has.

I do like these a lot better. I wasn't sure how to incorporate the shock aspect to the skill without skirting too close to Overload but the only black of Crushing would look fantastic here.

I do agree with the double status effect. I think these are far more creative and comprehensive approaches to skills that deliver more on par with the level of power creep plus the mechs Sorc needs.

Luneca · August 9

Wow, insane someone is tryng to argue that sorcs have a spammable just because they don't want their gank NB nerfed. The forums never cease to amaze me with how far people are willing to go to protect their cheese.

Keep up the good work refuters. You do represent the majority of people that actually play sorc outside of a subclassed stelathy gank setup. Something that skill wasn't designed for in the first place if we consider it a "spammable" like that guy wants us to.

Sorcs need work and have needed it for a long time, just like NB, templar, and also necro for similar yet differing reasons. Why ZOS cannot just change a single skill or introduce one mechanic to hold these classes over is insane.

ketsparrowhawk · August 9

I never thought I would see people actually ask for buffs to the class that is currently a mobile siege engine.

And asking for curse to be buffed because someone might have purge when the majority of players cannot even purge my siege?

This is beyond wild. This is insane.

@Luneca ^ a direct quote from you from this thread 1 week ago: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8514321/#Comment_8514321

Wow, insane someone is tryng to argue that sorcs have a spammable just because they don't want their gank NB nerfed. The forums never cease to amaze me with how far people are willing to go to protect their cheese.

Never played a ganker before. I do have a nightblade but it is a pure NB and not a ganker. My main class is Templar. Sorcs do have two spammable options: Crystal Weapon and Crystal Fragments. If we want to discuss possible ways of making them better (ex: remove the cast time from frags.. make crystal wep a regular projectile decoupled from light attacks [which would make it unviable as a ganking tool] etc) then that's great. Claiming that Sorcs don't have spammables at all is counterproductive and simply incorrect.

NxJoeyD · August 9

Luneca wrote: »

Wow, insane someone is tryng to argue that sorcs have a spammable just because they don't want their gank NB nerfed. The forums never cease to amaze me with how far people are willing to go to protect their cheese.

Keep up the good work refuters. You do represent the majority of people that actually play sorc outside of a subclassed stelathy gank setup. Something that skill wasn't designed for in the first place if we consider it a "spammable" like that guy wants us to.

Sorcs need work and have needed it for a long time, just like NB, templar, and also necro for similar yet differing reasons. Why ZOS cannot just change a single skill or introduce one mechanic to hold these classes over is insane.

It's only a select one or two people whom, for whatever reason, think that they have such a degree of experience that their viewpoint (which is different than the majority) think that they're correct no matter what.

Regardless of label Frags & Weapon don't behave like every other class spammable, period, end of story.

It's like someone trying to argue that a "window" is the same as a "door" because both can let air in.

Sorcs do need a refresh and one thing I can say about @Turtle_Bot I've seen them give consistent and objective viewpoints across many forums and topics and, IMO, will have good ideas and contributions here.

Sorc, IMO, is going to be one of the toughest class refreshes out of them all and it's going to be some of the most controversial because we have both the Mag concentration, the Stam concentration, as well as both pet & no pet focuses; all in one class. No matter what gets proposed at the onset there's going to be a good bit more discussion with this class.

I can't tell you how many people that I see on a daily basis complaining about Sorcs here in U50 or preaching about how amazing Sorc is, all while leaning on weapon & world skills, only slotting a Sorc skills like Hurricane, Surge, or Armaments for the self buffs; the same buffs every other class has in their kit. Not a single Sorc skill has the level of recognition that skills like Merci, Fissure, Colossus, Lash, Toppling, or Tentacles have in PvP .. and let's look at why:

Merci can easily scale to Ulti levels of damage with no telegraph (animation, yes, telegraph, no) > Sorcs like skill, Bound Armaments, cannot scale to anywhere near the same damage and although Armaments is an insta-cast, it takes 1.2 seconds to execute it's full function, an eternity in combat, leaving plenty of opportunity to block; meanwhile Merci is instant cast and instant burst and has a potential heal component.

Fissure is a delayed burst but applies both Major & Minor debuff at the same time > Haunting Cuse is also a delayed burst but doesn't deliver any debuffs or self buffs. Both skills have the same level of damage scaling but Fissure can affect multiple targets on both bursts and is fully mobile along with the player whereas curse is restricted to the individual target and anyone who might be around them (for the 2nd burst only)

Colossus is a staple Ulti among bombers > Sorcs Atro, is a comparable skill here but any wonder why bombers don't choose this one? Atro can deliver a hard CC (assuming the targets aren't immune) but the drawback to Atro is time. Colossus (on a test) can deliver, easily, 48K base damage over 3 seconds. In order for Atro to deliver as much damage it needs a whopping 9 seconds! That's 9 seconds that someone would have to stand within the AoE .. needless to say, nobody is doing that.

Lash delivers heavy AoE scaling > Sorcs have no comparable skill here. Sorcs have ground AoE but not a skill with direct cleave like Lash has. Considering that DK has had their refresh this one gets a pass because it wouldn't be accurate to judge Sorcs versus a class that has been fully refreshed. We can only hope we get a skill with the sort of scaling and flexibility as Lash.

Toppling charge delivers hard CC, a major buff, a target debuff, and often a stun lock > Streak would be the Sorcs most comparable skill. Streak can affect multiple enemies but this is often not the case (in reality), especially in PvP as players don't typically stand in a conga line for Streak to stun them; but it can happen. Toppling is single target but the Major Protection buff is significant. Streak is also un-blockable and that's worth something; although, I, personally, view the value proposition of un-blockable stuns somewhat less since subclassing. This is because so much more CC is now available in PvP and as such more players carry more immunity than before. This means the amount of times that a player goes to cast a CC skill on a target they're seeing more frequent instances of "target is immune". It doesn't kill a skill like Streak but it is a real factor. Further, Streaks 15m range is really the true shortfall of the skill now, again, post-subclassing. Since everyone has access to mobility buffs and gap closers, many of which have > 15m range, Streak being used to place distance and reset a fight is less effective than it once was. Again, that's not to say the skill is useless, just less effective than before. Lastly, Toppling is spammable without penalty. Streak carries a progressive cost, impacting the choice to continue using it repeatedly. Toppling also has a stun-lock bug (which has been reported) whereby a target can become "locked' during the gap close animation, resulting in a longer stun on the target than they should get.

Tentacles delivers AoE soft CC plus high scaling and has the flexibility to either heal of deliver bonus damage > Sorcs don't have a skill directly comparable to this but if I had to pick one I'd say Spines would be the closest. Both Spines & Tentacles scale to the same damage output and both deliver on a target debuff, but Tentacles edges out in two ways: 1) it can be scaled with Crux & 2) this is the more important one, it can deliver damage immediately. Spines only delivers damage after a 4 second delay. That 4 seconds gives a target plenty of time to mitigate the damage proc. While Tentacles isn't a go-to skill in PvP, we see far more of it than we do Sorcs Spines.

Mechanically it's easy to see why players aren't forming a line for any of these Sorc skills, rather, even when subclassing; the other class lines often yield far more benefit. Even after subclassing the main reason anyone took Sorc was only if they needed Major Resolve; but even then your meta builds don't call for it.

Sorcs need mechs that move away from being all pressure based to being more direct burst based in order to be competitive. The time value in combat is real, whether anyone thinks about it much or not. Subclassing changed the value of a second, especially in PvP combat and when we have a class where the skills take their merry time to effect a target that's a big deal and it's why Sorcs go so far out of the class.

ketsparrowhawk · August 9

Sorc has an amazing burst combo with Curse, Crystal Weapon, Fury, Bound Armaments, Overload. Their offense in PvP is very much burst-oriented. I recommend watching some of the videos I linked earlier to learn more about how these abilities work in PvP. I don't have the energy to respond to the whole wall of text but Sorcs have lots of enviable abilities too.

NxJoeyD · August 10

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Sorc has an amazing burst combo with Curse, Crystal Weapon, Fury, Bound Armaments, Overload. Their offense in PvP is very much burst-oriented. I recommend watching some of the videos I linked earlier to learn more about how these abilities work in PvP. I don't have the energy to respond to the whole wall of text but Sorcs have lots of enviable abilities too.

Sorc offense is DELAYED burst, which is pressure, not DIRECT burst.

The difference is time and that is now more of a factor in PvP combat post-subclassing. The fact that Sorc skills predominantly feature a delay is the problem and the difference. The time requires duration plus chaining combinations in order to be effective. That's a material disadvantage against skills that don't require the same time and chain combinations to be effective.

I'm sorry, but for many of us, myself included, the aspect of delayed burst just isn't competitive anymore.

I'm fully aware of how Sorc skills work, we all are. Unless you think the entirety of the OP's concerns are invalid I don't know what your point is here.

The thought that Sorc bust skills are "amazing" is nothing more than an opinion, which, you're entitled to. But, factually, Sorc skills aren't running anywhere near the top of ESO logs (PvE) and even if we look at the list of players on the Comp BG leaderboards (PvP) we don't see pure-Sorcs at the top (at least not on XB NA).

ketsparrowhawk · August 10

Delayed burst is burst.

I'm sorry, but for many of us, myself included, the aspect of delayed burst just isn't competitive anymore.

You only speak for yourself. Delayed burst is not only competitive, It's how most burst combos work. Blastbones, Shalks, POTL, Core of Flame/Inferno, Curse are all delayed burst skills and are all crucial for their respective class's burst combo.

I'm fully aware of how Sorc skills work, we all are. Unless you think the entirety of the OP's concerns are invalid I don't know what your point is here.

I think OP has some great ideas. I mostly just disagree with your assertion that 1) sorcs don't have a class spammable (even OP conceded this point earlier in this thread), and 2) sorcs have subpar abilities for PvP. I've given references. Yours are all either outdated or for PVE so it's hard to take them seriously.

NxJoeyD · August 10

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Delayed burst is burst.

It's not the same thing, and we all know it. To argue with that is literally quibbling with semantics that are irrelevant. Anyone with any experience in PvP understands the time value of combat and that there's an material difference between instant and delayed.

The nature of Sorcs delayed skills have generally been regarded as "pressure" due to the time factor associated with the execution of their skills. The two are not equal; especially post-subclassing.

If a difference is immaterial then it's not worth mentioning, but when the differences are material that's when one has to make distinctions.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

You only speak for yourself. Delayed burst is not only competitive, It's how most burst combos work. Blastbones, Shalks, POTL, Core of Flame/Inferno, Curse are all delayed burst skills and are all crucial for their respective class's burst combo.

Shalks is one skill in a Class toolkit that otherwise offers instant & direct bursts. This is where Sorc differs. Most Sorc skills carry a delay whereas that's the minority among every other class, save for Templar.

Further, I outlined why the Sorcs most comparable skill to Shalks falls mechanically short.

Nobody slots POTL in PvP, that literally never shows up on a death recap.

Again, Blastbones is one skill in a class that otherwise offers direct, instant burst, same for Flame / Inferno.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I think OP has some great ideas. I mostly just disagree with your assertion that 1) sorcs don't have a class spammable (even OP conceded this point earlier in this thread), and 2) sorcs have subpar abilities for PvP. I've given references. Yours are all either outdated or for PVE so it's hard to take them seriously.

If Sorcs didn't have sub-par abilities, especially in PvP then threads like this wouldn't exist. The OP went to length to demonstrate the deficiencies with Sorc skills, which are the exact same things I'm speaking to.

Further, this isn't the first thread regarding Sorc skill refresh, there have been others and it's also been mentioned in other threads.

Sorcs have great utility & high sustain, but their offense is easily mitigated.

If we look at ESO Logs we don't see a consistency of Sorc skills, that's just a fact, whether anyone likes it or not. If we look at Leaderboards, we don't see Sorcs leading any of the 3 factions, and interestingly, despite lots of DK, we do see other classes intermixed amongst the main Cyro leaderboards but Sorc doesn't appear until 12th for Daggerfall.

There's no credible evidence, anywhere, that Sorcs class skills, are keeping pace with other class skills. The only builds that highlight Sorcs are, again, builds that have world & weapon skills doing all the heavy lifting.

ketsparrowhawk · August 10

It's not the same thing, and we all know it. To argue with that is literally quibbling with semantics that are irrelevant. Anyone with any experience in PvP understands the time value of combat and that there's an material difference between instant and delayed.

Again you only speak for yourself. Almost every burst combo out there involves delayed burst of some kind. Pure NB being the main exception and Merciless comes with its own challenges I assure you.

Shalks is one skill in a Class toolkit that otherwise offers instant & direct bursts. This is where Sorc differs. Most Sorc skills carry a delay whereas that's the minority among every other class, save for Templar.

Sorc has far greater burst potential than Warden and they do have instant direct burst attacks as we've discussed ad nauseam.

There's no credible evidence, anywhere, that Sorcs class skills, are keeping pace with other class skills. The only builds that highlight Sorcs are, again, builds that have world & weapon skills doing all the heavy lifting.

I provided lots of evidence you just choose to ignore it. Your screen shots, again, are for PVE. We are talking about PVP.

I agree with OP that sorc has some inconsistencies in their class design and could use a QoL pass.

NxJoeyD · August 10

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Again you only speak for yourself. Almost every burst combo out there involves delayed burst of some kind. Pure NB being the main exception and Merciless comes with its own challenges I assure you.

That's wholly false. Combos like Surprise + Impale ... Skull + Scythe ..... Tentacular + Runeblades ... none of those require a delayed burst. Those are just a few examples since Subclassing enables any combination of instant, direct burst skills enabling players to avoid delayed bursts, which is exactly what most have done.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Sorc has far greater burst potential than Warden and they do have instant direct burst attacks as we've discussed ad nauseam.

Right, this is precisely why most players who Subclass ran to Daedric Summoning rather than Animal Companions ... oh, wait, they didn't. .. The only instant, direct in the Sorc toolkit is Weapon, which is a Stam focused skill so it doesn't even benefit all Sorcs. Wrath does burst potential, admittedly, but it's at a lower threshold than the rest and it's the only one of the execute skills that doesn't progressively scale, leaving quite a lot of damage on the table when compared to the other executes.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I provided lots of evidence you just choose to ignore it. Your screen shots, again, are for PVE. We are talking about PVP.

I agree with OP that sorc has some inconsistencies in their class design and could use a QoL pass.

Those were Cryo leaderboard screen shots .. last time I checked that's PvP. And those leaderboards are as of today, and there's no Sorcs sitting toward the top of any of the factions. That's evidence that our top performers aren't base Sorcs. We see more Necros & NBs on those leaderboards than we do Sorcs, that's pretty telling.

ketsparrowhawk · August 10

That's wholly false. Combos like Surprise + Impale ... Skull + Scythe ..... Tentacular + Runeblades ... none of those require a delayed burst. Those are just a few examples since Subclassing enables any combination of instant, direct burst skills enabling players to avoid delayed bursts, which is exactly what most have done.

I would not consider any of those proper "combos". I doubt you could kill many players with "Skull + Scythe" or any of the other examples here.

Those were Cryo leaderboard screen shots .. last time I checked that's PvP. And those leaderboards are as of today, and there's no Sorcs sitting toward the top of any of the factions. That's evidence that our top performers aren't base Sorcs. We see more Necros & NBs on those leaderboards than we do Sorcs, that's pretty telling.

Apologies, my mistake. Here is the PC/NA overall leaderboard.

DK's running the show but Sorc's strongly represented.

NxJoeyD · August 10

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I would not consider any of those proper "combos". I doubt you could kill many players with "Skull + Scythe" or any of the other examples here.

You may not consider them "proper combos" but they exist, and, for what it's worth, I see quite a lot of use out of Skull in PvP.

The fact remains that thanks to subclassing, players can chain plenty of skill combinations that have no delay to their functionality and we see that consistently in PvP.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Apologies, my mistake. Here is the PC/NA overall leaderboard.

DK's running the show but Sorc's strongly represented.

DKs are no surprise. Sorcs do seem to have more representation on PC NA leaderboards, but on XB NA, you can see they don't. I don't know what the population differences are between the platforms but what is interesting is how much lower the overall points trends are for PC NA versus XB NA. This would indicate a much stronger player contribution factor on XB over PC.

In conversations that I've had with others on these forums about PvP and BGs, in particular, I had noticed that some of the values and numbers PC players were citing were lower than what I typically see on XB, when it comes to things like total damage output, average damage / average healing, etc.

There's clearly some pretty significantly different trends between the platforms.

ketsparrowhawk · August 10

The fact remains that thanks to subclassing, players can chain plenty of skill combinations that have no delay to their functionality and we see that consistently in PvP.

The delay is what gives them value. In the case of "skull + scythe" you'd do more damage just casting skull twice and leaving scythe out of it. The delay allows you to line up multiple abilities to hit at once which is generally the only way you will kill most experienced players. Sure those skills are used in PvP but they are typically **combo'd** with delayed burst abilities.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · August 10

Luneca wrote: »

Never forget what happened when Skinnycheeks (?) wasted all that time thinking of a system to better balance the game and it was sidelined. You should give input, but don't work yourself too hard. It will likely be completely ignored.

The game was already 'set and forget'. Until it wasn't with Subclass (U46) and everyone had to endure more than a year of their characters being wrecked. And they still are. Wrecked to Green Beam/Assassination and Warden Charm in PvP. The resulting fallout from this "We need to have 3 dps skill lines" is destroying the game! So many people quit that they had to resort to reworks and Class Passives to save it. Instead of just removing this broken cherry picking Subclassing system that has blown up in the face of everyone as they completely agree that balance is the worst in 10 years! Zos needs to shut down the PTS and hire people to do their own research. With the actual numbers that only Zos has. Before we get an end of service date with more and more of this stupidity for clicks on a non Eso website.

NxJoeyD · August 10

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

The fact remains that thanks to subclassing, players can chain plenty of skill combinations that have no delay to their functionality and we see that consistently in PvP.

The delay is what gives them value. In the case of "skull + scythe" you'd do more damage just casting skull twice and leaving scythe out of it. The delay allows you to line up multiple abilities to hit at once which is generally the only way you will kill most experienced players. Sure those skills are used in PvP but they are typically **combo'd** with delayed burst abilities.

From what I'm seeing, in PvP on XB, it's the exact opposite. The way you kill experienced players is by applying multiple instances of high scaling, instant burst damage simultaneously.

In the past, yes, there was absolutely a value prospect of delayed burst to attempt to "chain" or line up the timing. But subclassing changed the nature of the time factor in combat.

Take Curse, for example, If one were to cast that and then try to wait the 3.5 seconds for the first burst, seeking to combo the burst with another skill, say, Frags ... the problem is that in current PvP, your opponents can deal so much damage, per GCD, that before the 3.5 seconds elapses for the first burst of Curse, you're already on the defensive and your window to properly "chain" the timing of two attacks goes right out the window.

Again, I'm speaking for XB NA, and what I see there are players able to one shot even the strongest Ward shields, the time that Ward used to give for a Sorc to setup skill stacks was eroded. Players are able to heal from at / near execute range back to full in a single GCD which means delayed pressure mitigation is incredibly easy. When you have players that can crit Vigor or Healing Burst for 5k to 6k per tick, regularly, that enables a lot of aggressive offense and makes the value in the delay of a skill effect reduced.

Here's an example from a recent BG. I've been recording these for some time, archiving results to demonstrate PvP trends.

In these screen shots from a Deathmatch you can see I've highlighted two players, myself and a player on the opposing team. In this particular match we were the only two Sorcs. In the recap you can see that both of us have very similar total damage output values, within 4k of each other. Now, while 620K isn't very high, this was a shorter match. .. But that isn't the point .. the point is that despite both Sorcs dealing out similar total damage values one was able to achieve kills while the other was not.

The reason for that is precisely because he was using convention Sorc skills like Curse, & Frags paired with Crushing Shock. While Crushing is an instant, direct burst, the other two attacks aren't and while that player was waiting for their bonus proc of Frags or for Curse to pop, their targets were either cleaning or healing through the delays or dodging Frags.

I'm familiar with this player and they're, what I would consider, experienced as they're a higher CP than I am, but more importantly they have another account which is currently ranked #2 in competitive PvP BGs right now, so it's not as though they don't know how to play.

I'm seeing matches every single day where Sorcs are dealing damage but not able score kills, namely due to their skills slotted. The exceptions to this are the Stam Sorcs that are leaning on Dual Wield or Two Handed skills for their damage and the Sorc class skill for their utility .. and frankly, I can see why.

My recap 624.1k 8 / 0 / 6 - also note, neither team had a dedicated healer, which is clear from the recap (healers reflect high match score and 0 to few kills).

The other Sorc in the match 620.6k 3 / 3 / 4 - despite dealing similar damage, they weren't able to translate that damage dealt into actual kills; IMO this is due to the skills observed. This player was durable and difficult to kill, but wasn't able to achieve as many kills themselves.

The other Sorc does have other characters, one of their stronger builds is currently #2 in ranked BGs. My guess is their Sorc is built for strong pressure with high W/D & high pools but is more effective in a coordinated group rather than in the PUG they were in. There are a good number of Sorc builds that really shine when they have proper team cover, otherwise, on their own; can be easily beaten.

Again, I can't speak for PC as I only use my PC account for PTS and knock around testing, not my daily play, but if I'm judging by the Alliance scores on PC, it seems we've got harder hitting builds on XB NA, which, would make sense why you and I are seeing different things.

ketsparrowhawk · August 10

From what I'm seeing, in PvP on XB, it's the exact opposite. The way you kill experienced players is by applying multiple instances of high scaling, instant burst damage simultaneously.

Exactly. Multiple instances of burst damage Simultaneously. This is made possible by the existence of delayed burst attacks.

The screenshots really don't prove much of anything.

The XBOX-to-PC comparisons are nonsense.

NxJoeyD · August 10

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

From what I'm seeing, in PvP on XB, it's the exact opposite. The way you kill experienced players is by applying multiple instances of high scaling, instant burst damage simultaneously.

Exactly. Multiple instances of burst damage Simultaneously. This is made possible by the existence of delayed burst attacks.

No, it's really not. There's TONS of ways to apply multiple instances of direct burst damage without the use of delayed attacks. In fact, it's more reliable with skills that aren't delayed because each instance can occur on-demand without the need to rely on timing, which can be disrupted by opponent attacks.

I stack 5 to 6 instances of high scaling burst damage, instantly, in one GCD with no delays.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

The screenshots really don't prove much of anything.

The XBOX-to-PC comparisons are nonsense.

I would say the comparisons are extremely eye opening. PC players aren't achieving even close to the numbers XB players are. Whether that's due to one platform being more casual versus the other being more hard core, or whether it's due to larger, overall, populations in PvP on one versus the other; it's anyone's guess .. there's really no way to know .. but the numbers don't lie.

ketsparrowhawk · August 11

I stack 5 to 6 instances of high scaling burst damage, instantly, in one GCD with no delays.

Would you mind telling me which abilities you're using to do that?

I would say the comparisons are extremely eye opening. PC players aren't achieving even close to the numbers XB players are. Whether that's due to one platform being more casual versus the other being more hard core, or whether it's due to larger, overall, populations in PvP on one versus the other; it's anyone's guess .. there's really no way to know .. but the numbers don't lie.

Gray Host is always pop locked so I usually home Blackreach, which is where my screen shot is from. Gray Host has much higher scores and yes plenty of sorcs there too. The xbox-to-pc comparisons are total nonsense.

NxJoeyD · August 11

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I stack 5 to 6 instances of high scaling burst damage, instantly, in one GCD with no delays.

Would you mind telling me which abilities you're using to do that?

Pre-cast Elemental Weeapon

Shocking Soul + Light Attack weave

The Shocking Soul + light attack weave occurs in one GCD, in that time the following instances apply to the target all at the same moment:

Elemental Weapon: 11,226
Shocking Soul: 10,869
Concussed / Burning / Chilled: 1,798
Anchorite's Cruelty: 1,049 (avg)
Light Attack (Overload): 13,725
Black Gem Monstrosity: 5,639 (avg. this set does scale against transformative ults)

That's 6 instances of simultaneous damage hitting the target for a total of 42,508; all before resistances, of course, and before any crits, but, without waiting for any delayed proc. All 6 instances affect the target within the same GCD second.

madmufffin · August 11

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

NxJoeyD · August 11

madmufffin wrote: »

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

I'm ok with Curse being a delayed proc burst but it definitely needs more; namely powerful debuffs, especially considering that the skill is (and likely will be) single target predominantly. One idea might be that if a Sorc casts a Class skill on a target affected by Curse, they'll cause the 2nd proc of damage to occur immediately.

The pets, I'm really indifferent for the most part. I want to see people who enjoy pets have them, with no penalty. Moreover, I'd like to see pets significantly improved. IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line. This would satisfy everything, mechanically, the only drawback are players who feel strongly that pets belong within the class as part of the lore. And while those players aren't wrong, I'm looking at it from the perspective that the Devs have grown the game in a way where that lore isn't as mechanically beneficial.

Looking at DK, they moved some things around and gave the class a lot of power but also a lot of mechanics with little downsides. There's not much in terms of combat that isn't somewhere in the DK tool kit. Given that subclassing all but eliminated class limitations I can see why they did this. But DK's have traditionally been a brawler class, while Sorcs have not. So if the Devs are going to try and deliver comparable power to Sorcs it's not necessarily going to be in the tooltips, per se, but in the mechanics of how those skills function.

Sorcs currently have in-class: mobility, CC, sustain utility, healing, durability (shield)

Sorcs need in-class sources of: Major Breach, snare, cleave, AoE burst (Sorcs have Flood but I specifically mean a non-synergy re-work), "Shock" focused stackable damage modifier, damage reduction, minor healing component to damage output skill.

madmufffin · August 11

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

I'm ok with Curse being a delayed proc burst but it definitely needs more; namely powerful debuffs, especially considering that the skill is (and likely will be) single target predominantly. One idea might be that if a Sorc casts a Class skill on a target affected by Curse, they'll cause the 2nd proc of damage to occur immediately.

The pets, I'm really indifferent for the most part. I want to see people who enjoy pets have them, with no penalty. Moreover, I'd like to see pets significantly improved. IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line. This would satisfy everything, mechanically, the only drawback are players who feel strongly that pets belong within the class as part of the lore. And while those players aren't wrong, I'm looking at it from the perspective that the Devs have grown the game in a way where that lore isn't as mechanically beneficial.

Looking at DK, they moved some things around and gave the class a lot of power but also a lot of mechanics with little downsides. There's not much in terms of combat that isn't somewhere in the DK tool kit. Given that subclassing all but eliminated class limitations I can see why they did this. But DK's have traditionally been a brawler class, while Sorcs have not. So if the Devs are going to try and deliver comparable power to Sorcs it's not necessarily going to be in the tooltips, per se, but in the mechanics of how those skills function.

Sorcs currently have in-class: mobility, CC, sustain utility, healing, durability (shield)

Sorcs need in-class sources of: Major Breach, snare, cleave, AoE burst (Sorcs have Flood but I specifically mean a non-synergy re-work), "Shock" focused stackable damage modifier, damage reduction, minor healing component to damage output skill.

DK is overkitted, so I'm not expecting or wanting sorc to be like that, but was more referencing that they did the refresh while keeping class identity and not just nuking core components. Sorc has an absurd amount of redundancy that could be removed to make way for a more functional and thematic class, which is what I hope they do. A world line for pets would actually be amazing and solve a lot of issues for sorc while make accessibility improve a lot for everyone.

Seeing something on curse like first hit applies major breach and second hit applies minor vuln or something would be a nice improvement on the skill, but sounds unlikely and I think concussed already gives vuln anyways? Lots of places for sorc to go and I hope we just are able to get there without holding onto too much of the clutter in the skills.

ketsparrowhawk · August 11

Pre-cast Elemental Weeapon

Shocking Soul + Light Attack weave

The Shocking Soul + light attack weave occurs in one GCD, in that time the following instances apply to the target all at the same moment:

Elemental Weapon: 11,226
Shocking Soul: 10,869
Concussed / Burning / Chilled: 1,798
Anchorite's Cruelty: 1,049 (avg)
Light Attack (Overload): 13,725
Black Gem Monstrosity: 5,639 (avg. this set does scale against transformative ults)

That's 6 instances of simultaneous damage hitting the target for a total of 42,508; all before resistances, of course, and before any crits, but, without waiting for any delayed proc. All 6 instances affect the target within the same GCD second.

I've done a similar setup before except with Curse + Mage's Wrath in the mix as well.. very fun! Ele Wep + Shocking Soul + Overload would not be an effective offense against most pvpers I know, and Ele Weapon is being used as delayed damage here (hence the need to pre-cast). The statuses, dot tick, LA weave and proc set are a given in most offensive kits; I wouldn't call them "instances of high scaling burst damage".

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

Agreed these would be excellent changes to these skills!

IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line

I like this suggestion a lot as well.

NxJoeyD · August 11

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Pre-cast Elemental Weeapon

Shocking Soul + Light Attack weave

The Shocking Soul + light attack weave occurs in one GCD, in that time the following instances apply to the target all at the same moment:

Elemental Weapon: 11,226
Shocking Soul: 10,869
Concussed / Burning / Chilled: 1,798
Anchorite's Cruelty: 1,049 (avg)
Light Attack (Overload): 13,725
Black Gem Monstrosity: 5,639 (avg. this set does scale against transformative ults)

That's 6 instances of simultaneous damage hitting the target for a total of 42,508; all before resistances, of course, and before any crits, but, without waiting for any delayed proc. All 6 instances affect the target within the same GCD second.

I've done a similar setup before except with Curse + Mage's Wrath in the mix as well.. very fun! Ele Wep + Shocking Soul + Overload would not be an effective offense against most pvpers I know, and Ele Weapon is being used as delayed damage here (hence the need to pre-cast). The statuses, dot tick, LA weave and proc set are a given in most offensive kits; I wouldn't call them "instances of high scaling burst damage".

I will use Mages Wrath, but post-nerf it takes a lot of finesse to use as it’s notoriously unreliable.

Ele Weapon IMO isn’t delayed damage so much as it’s a pre cast. It’s similar to pre paying for a GCD (like with Contingency), but, there’s one big mechanical difference here. Pre paying for a GCD differs from a delayed damage proc in that the time cost occurs on the front end, before the attack cast, as opposed to on the back end, when a timing lineup is necessary. Basically the reverse of a delayed proc.

Ele Weapon isn’t a direct cast and, yeah, there is a time cost but it’s before my attack, not after. Since Ele Weapon scales higher than Crystal Weapon and delivers the Ele Status effects which have the same damage scaling as Sundered (with the exception of Concussed that gives a 15% direct damage bonus to targets that were previously concussed) it’s the stronger option IMO. I don’t repeatedly cast Ele Weapon, I use it as an opener and intermediate on exceptionally tanky players (DK / WW), most times I don’t need to re proc it.

As for the Status, no, the only DoT would be burning. concussed & chilled are direct, scaling off stats. Burning is a 2-second tick DoT for 4 seconds total(3 ticks total), but, scales significantly higher than concussed or chilled so the initial damage instance is on par with the other two.

This is incredibly effective against even high tier MMR players as I also have high Pen; the combination of that much damage and Pen is going to shred most anyone’s health and put them right on the defensive. Even with Battle Spirit active and a player with full block mitigation you’re looking at around a 15k hit post resistances, that’s 50% of the average PvP players health bar, and that’s worst case scenario.

NxJoeyD · August 11

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

I'm ok with Curse being a delayed proc burst but it definitely needs more; namely powerful debuffs, especially considering that the skill is (and likely will be) single target predominantly. One idea might be that if a Sorc casts a Class skill on a target affected by Curse, they'll cause the 2nd proc of damage to occur immediately.

The pets, I'm really indifferent for the most part. I want to see people who enjoy pets have them, with no penalty. Moreover, I'd like to see pets significantly improved. IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line. This would satisfy everything, mechanically, the only drawback are players who feel strongly that pets belong within the class as part of the lore. And while those players aren't wrong, I'm looking at it from the perspective that the Devs have grown the game in a way where that lore isn't as mechanically beneficial.

Looking at DK, they moved some things around and gave the class a lot of power but also a lot of mechanics with little downsides. There's not much in terms of combat that isn't somewhere in the DK tool kit. Given that subclassing all but eliminated class limitations I can see why they did this. But DK's have traditionally been a brawler class, while Sorcs have not. So if the Devs are going to try and deliver comparable power to Sorcs it's not necessarily going to be in the tooltips, per se, but in the mechanics of how those skills function.

Sorcs currently have in-class: mobility, CC, sustain utility, healing, durability (shield)

Sorcs need in-class sources of: Major Breach, snare, cleave, AoE burst (Sorcs have Flood but I specifically mean a non-synergy re-work), "Shock" focused stackable damage modifier, damage reduction, minor healing component to damage output skill.

DK is overkitted, so I'm not expecting or wanting sorc to be like that, but was more referencing that they did the refresh while keeping class identity and not just nuking core components. Sorc has an absurd amount of redundancy that could be removed to make way for a more functional and thematic class, which is what I hope they do. A world line for pets would actually be amazing and solve a lot of issues for sorc while make accessibility improve a lot for everyone.

Seeing something on curse like first hit applies major breach and second hit applies minor vuln or something would be a nice improvement on the skill, but sounds unlikely and I think concussed already gives vuln anyways? Lots of places for sorc to go and I hope we just are able to get there without holding onto too much of the clutter in the skills.

DK is over kitted because subclassed builds can over-kit to the moon.

U51s nerd to the Power Lash healing component I think will help because DKs won’t just be able to spam with impunity, they’ll be able to take more punishment as opposed to casting-without-a-care that many do now.

The problem with Curse being the carrier of Major Breach is the caveat that a player can only have one Curse active at a time. This would limit Sorcs to one target with Major Breach only whilst other classes (and scribing) allows players to breach more than one target, even if they have to apply it to each one individually. Being boxed in to only one Major Breach would be too limiting. I agree that a skill should feature it but it needs to be a skill that isn’t limited to one active at a time.

Concussed does give Minor Vuln for 4/s, but, that’s dependent upon whether or not the target gets hit with the Status effect. If we had a skill that had a guaranteed application within the Class that would work, but right now we’re stuck with each skills standard proc chance for status effects which in most cases is between 3% to 5% I’m pretty sure.

madmufffin · August 11

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

I'm ok with Curse being a delayed proc burst but it definitely needs more; namely powerful debuffs, especially considering that the skill is (and likely will be) single target predominantly. One idea might be that if a Sorc casts a Class skill on a target affected by Curse, they'll cause the 2nd proc of damage to occur immediately.

The pets, I'm really indifferent for the most part. I want to see people who enjoy pets have them, with no penalty. Moreover, I'd like to see pets significantly improved. IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line. This would satisfy everything, mechanically, the only drawback are players who feel strongly that pets belong within the class as part of the lore. And while those players aren't wrong, I'm looking at it from the perspective that the Devs have grown the game in a way where that lore isn't as mechanically beneficial.

Looking at DK, they moved some things around and gave the class a lot of power but also a lot of mechanics with little downsides. There's not much in terms of combat that isn't somewhere in the DK tool kit. Given that subclassing all but eliminated class limitations I can see why they did this. But DK's have traditionally been a brawler class, while Sorcs have not. So if the Devs are going to try and deliver comparable power to Sorcs it's not necessarily going to be in the tooltips, per se, but in the mechanics of how those skills function.

Sorcs currently have in-class: mobility, CC, sustain utility, healing, durability (shield)

Sorcs need in-class sources of: Major Breach, snare, cleave, AoE burst (Sorcs have Flood but I specifically mean a non-synergy re-work), "Shock" focused stackable damage modifier, damage reduction, minor healing component to damage output skill.

DK is overkitted, so I'm not expecting or wanting sorc to be like that, but was more referencing that they did the refresh while keeping class identity and not just nuking core components. Sorc has an absurd amount of redundancy that could be removed to make way for a more functional and thematic class, which is what I hope they do. A world line for pets would actually be amazing and solve a lot of issues for sorc while make accessibility improve a lot for everyone.

Seeing something on curse like first hit applies major breach and second hit applies minor vuln or something would be a nice improvement on the skill, but sounds unlikely and I think concussed already gives vuln anyways? Lots of places for sorc to go and I hope we just are able to get there without holding onto too much of the clutter in the skills.

DK is over kitted because subclassed builds can over-kit to the moon.

U51s nerd to the Power Lash healing component I think will help because DKs won’t just be able to spam with impunity, they’ll be able to take more punishment as opposed to casting-without-a-care that many do now.

The problem with Curse being the carrier of Major Breach is the caveat that a player can only have one Curse active at a time. This would limit Sorcs to one target with Major Breach only whilst other classes (and scribing) allows players to breach more than one target, even if they have to apply it to each one individually. Being boxed in to only one Major Breach would be too limiting. I agree that a skill should feature it but it needs to be a skill that isn’t limited to one active at a time.

Concussed does give Minor Vuln for 4/s, but, that’s dependent upon whether or not the target gets hit with the Status effect. If we had a skill that had a guaranteed application within the Class that would work, but right now we’re stuck with each skills standard proc chance for status effects which in most cases is between 3% to 5% I’m pretty sure.

Most of the time I see people using molten in Cyro right now, so I don't think the lash change does literally anything to dial DK back

NxJoeyD · August 11

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

I'm ok with Curse being a delayed proc burst but it definitely needs more; namely powerful debuffs, especially considering that the skill is (and likely will be) single target predominantly. One idea might be that if a Sorc casts a Class skill on a target affected by Curse, they'll cause the 2nd proc of damage to occur immediately.

The pets, I'm really indifferent for the most part. I want to see people who enjoy pets have them, with no penalty. Moreover, I'd like to see pets significantly improved. IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line. This would satisfy everything, mechanically, the only drawback are players who feel strongly that pets belong within the class as part of the lore. And while those players aren't wrong, I'm looking at it from the perspective that the Devs have grown the game in a way where that lore isn't as mechanically beneficial.

Looking at DK, they moved some things around and gave the class a lot of power but also a lot of mechanics with little downsides. There's not much in terms of combat that isn't somewhere in the DK tool kit. Given that subclassing all but eliminated class limitations I can see why they did this. But DK's have traditionally been a brawler class, while Sorcs have not. So if the Devs are going to try and deliver comparable power to Sorcs it's not necessarily going to be in the tooltips, per se, but in the mechanics of how those skills function.

Sorcs currently have in-class: mobility, CC, sustain utility, healing, durability (shield)

Sorcs need in-class sources of: Major Breach, snare, cleave, AoE burst (Sorcs have Flood but I specifically mean a non-synergy re-work), "Shock" focused stackable damage modifier, damage reduction, minor healing component to damage output skill.

DK is overkitted, so I'm not expecting or wanting sorc to be like that, but was more referencing that they did the refresh while keeping class identity and not just nuking core components. Sorc has an absurd amount of redundancy that could be removed to make way for a more functional and thematic class, which is what I hope they do. A world line for pets would actually be amazing and solve a lot of issues for sorc while make accessibility improve a lot for everyone.

Seeing something on curse like first hit applies major breach and second hit applies minor vuln or something would be a nice improvement on the skill, but sounds unlikely and I think concussed already gives vuln anyways? Lots of places for sorc to go and I hope we just are able to get there without holding onto too much of the clutter in the skills.

DK is over kitted because subclassed builds can over-kit to the moon.

U51s nerd to the Power Lash healing component I think will help because DKs won’t just be able to spam with impunity, they’ll be able to take more punishment as opposed to casting-without-a-care that many do now.

The problem with Curse being the carrier of Major Breach is the caveat that a player can only have one Curse active at a time. This would limit Sorcs to one target with Major Breach only whilst other classes (and scribing) allows players to breach more than one target, even if they have to apply it to each one individually. Being boxed in to only one Major Breach would be too limiting. I agree that a skill should feature it but it needs to be a skill that isn’t limited to one active at a time.

Concussed does give Minor Vuln for 4/s, but, that’s dependent upon whether or not the target gets hit with the Status effect. If we had a skill that had a guaranteed application within the Class that would work, but right now we’re stuck with each skills standard proc chance for status effects which in most cases is between 3% to 5% I’m pretty sure.

Most of the time I see people using molten in Cyro right now, so I don't think the lash change does literally anything to dial DK back

For the Molten players, no, it won't do anything for them .. but a lot of players slot Flame Lash because the Power Lash proc scales to 36% more than the bonus of Seething Fury and is AoE where Molten stays single target. This lets the Flame Lash players proc a massive AoE direct burst every 20 seconds for 5x applications; all while healing for as much health as Seething Fury grants as damage, per cast. Those players can, basically, just slap Power Lash without even having to care about incoming attacks with a heal component that high so the nerf will dial those users back by a lot.

madmufffin · August 11

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

I'm ok with Curse being a delayed proc burst but it definitely needs more; namely powerful debuffs, especially considering that the skill is (and likely will be) single target predominantly. One idea might be that if a Sorc casts a Class skill on a target affected by Curse, they'll cause the 2nd proc of damage to occur immediately.

The pets, I'm really indifferent for the most part. I want to see people who enjoy pets have them, with no penalty. Moreover, I'd like to see pets significantly improved. IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line. This would satisfy everything, mechanically, the only drawback are players who feel strongly that pets belong within the class as part of the lore. And while those players aren't wrong, I'm looking at it from the perspective that the Devs have grown the game in a way where that lore isn't as mechanically beneficial.

Looking at DK, they moved some things around and gave the class a lot of power but also a lot of mechanics with little downsides. There's not much in terms of combat that isn't somewhere in the DK tool kit. Given that subclassing all but eliminated class limitations I can see why they did this. But DK's have traditionally been a brawler class, while Sorcs have not. So if the Devs are going to try and deliver comparable power to Sorcs it's not necessarily going to be in the tooltips, per se, but in the mechanics of how those skills function.

Sorcs currently have in-class: mobility, CC, sustain utility, healing, durability (shield)

Sorcs need in-class sources of: Major Breach, snare, cleave, AoE burst (Sorcs have Flood but I specifically mean a non-synergy re-work), "Shock" focused stackable damage modifier, damage reduction, minor healing component to damage output skill.

DK is overkitted, so I'm not expecting or wanting sorc to be like that, but was more referencing that they did the refresh while keeping class identity and not just nuking core components. Sorc has an absurd amount of redundancy that could be removed to make way for a more functional and thematic class, which is what I hope they do. A world line for pets would actually be amazing and solve a lot of issues for sorc while make accessibility improve a lot for everyone.

Seeing something on curse like first hit applies major breach and second hit applies minor vuln or something would be a nice improvement on the skill, but sounds unlikely and I think concussed already gives vuln anyways? Lots of places for sorc to go and I hope we just are able to get there without holding onto too much of the clutter in the skills.

DK is over kitted because subclassed builds can over-kit to the moon.

U51s nerd to the Power Lash healing component I think will help because DKs won’t just be able to spam with impunity, they’ll be able to take more punishment as opposed to casting-without-a-care that many do now.

The problem with Curse being the carrier of Major Breach is the caveat that a player can only have one Curse active at a time. This would limit Sorcs to one target with Major Breach only whilst other classes (and scribing) allows players to breach more than one target, even if they have to apply it to each one individually. Being boxed in to only one Major Breach would be too limiting. I agree that a skill should feature it but it needs to be a skill that isn’t limited to one active at a time.

Concussed does give Minor Vuln for 4/s, but, that’s dependent upon whether or not the target gets hit with the Status effect. If we had a skill that had a guaranteed application within the Class that would work, but right now we’re stuck with each skills standard proc chance for status effects which in most cases is between 3% to 5% I’m pretty sure.

Most of the time I see people using molten in Cyro right now, so I don't think the lash change does literally anything to dial DK back

For the Molten players, no, it won't do anything for them .. but a lot of players slot Flame Lash because the Power Lash proc scales to 36% more than the bonus of Seething Fury and is AoE where Molten stays single target. This lets the Flame Lash players proc a massive AoE direct burst every 20 seconds for 5x applications; all while healing for as much health as Seething Fury grants as damage, per cast. Those players can, basically, just slap Power Lash without even having to care about incoming attacks with a heal component that high so the nerf will dial those users back by a lot.

I can't speak to everything. I just know what I see in my death recap, and it's always molten lol

ceruulean · August 11

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

As I've discussed at length on several posts, most of which you've also commented on, I just want them to actually lean into the shock mage thing. As long as frags and a buffed crystal weapon get kept, mage's gets not the worst cast animation in the game, and we stop the ill-fated relationship with pets, I don't care what they do with the rest of the existing skills. Haunting curse is cool and all, but it just feels so meh. If it applied some debuff in tandem with the damage I might view it more favorably but as it is now it's just a *** potl. Take away the over abundance of "utility" and give the class a shock spammable finally (can even make crystal weapons that), make the shock passive not the worst ele passive in the game, and find something to be a class heal with the loss of crit gimping crit/power surge. I wasn't playing when DK got reworked, but they seemed to have done a decent job of it despite the absolutely horrific names, so I'll view a sorc rework somewhat optimistically for now. If they butcher my baby during the warden rework next year, I'm probably not gonna be around for the sorc rework anyways.

I'm all for keeping Frags & Weapon, I would just like to see Frags be instant cast in what ever lore-centric form of the skill it gets. The 0.8 cast time makes it too RNG, waiting on a bonus proc isn't the "on-demand" skill Sorcs need.

As for Weapon, I'd like to see that be a direct application on the target. Turtle_Bot's suggestion for both, IMO, are pretty good.

I'm ok with Curse being a delayed proc burst but it definitely needs more; namely powerful debuffs, especially considering that the skill is (and likely will be) single target predominantly. One idea might be that if a Sorc casts a Class skill on a target affected by Curse, they'll cause the 2nd proc of damage to occur immediately.

The pets, I'm really indifferent for the most part. I want to see people who enjoy pets have them, with no penalty. Moreover, I'd like to see pets significantly improved. IMO the best way to do this is to give them their own World skill line. This would satisfy everything, mechanically, the only drawback are players who feel strongly that pets belong within the class as part of the lore. And while those players aren't wrong, I'm looking at it from the perspective that the Devs have grown the game in a way where that lore isn't as mechanically beneficial.

Looking at DK, they moved some things around and gave the class a lot of power but also a lot of mechanics with little downsides. There's not much in terms of combat that isn't somewhere in the DK tool kit. Given that subclassing all but eliminated class limitations I can see why they did this. But DK's have traditionally been a brawler class, while Sorcs have not. So if the Devs are going to try and deliver comparable power to Sorcs it's not necessarily going to be in the tooltips, per se, but in the mechanics of how those skills function.

Sorcs currently have in-class: mobility, CC, sustain utility, healing, durability (shield)

Sorcs need in-class sources of: Major Breach, snare, cleave, AoE burst (Sorcs have Flood but I specifically mean a non-synergy re-work), "Shock" focused stackable damage modifier, damage reduction, minor healing component to damage output skill.

DK is overkitted, so I'm not expecting or wanting sorc to be like that, but was more referencing that they did the refresh while keeping class identity and not just nuking core components. Sorc has an absurd amount of redundancy that could be removed to make way for a more functional and thematic class, which is what I hope they do. A world line for pets would actually be amazing and solve a lot of issues for sorc while make accessibility improve a lot for everyone.

Seeing something on curse like first hit applies major breach and second hit applies minor vuln or something would be a nice improvement on the skill, but sounds unlikely and I think concussed already gives vuln anyways? Lots of places for sorc to go and I hope we just are able to get there without holding onto too much of the clutter in the skills.

DK is over kitted because subclassed builds can over-kit to the moon.

U51s nerd to the Power Lash healing component I think will help because DKs won’t just be able to spam with impunity, they’ll be able to take more punishment as opposed to casting-without-a-care that many do now.

The problem with Curse being the carrier of Major Breach is the caveat that a player can only have one Curse active at a time. This would limit Sorcs to one target with Major Breach only whilst other classes (and scribing) allows players to breach more than one target, even if they have to apply it to each one individually. Being boxed in to only one Major Breach would be too limiting. I agree that a skill should feature it but it needs to be a skill that isn’t limited to one active at a time.

Concussed does give Minor Vuln for 4/s, but, that’s dependent upon whether or not the target gets hit with the Status effect. If we had a skill that had a guaranteed application within the Class that would work, but right now we’re stuck with each skills standard proc chance for status effects which in most cases is between 3% to 5% I’m pretty sure.

Most of the time I see people using molten in Cyro right now, so I don't think the lash change does literally anything to dial DK back

For the Molten players, no, it won't do anything for them .. but a lot of players slot Flame Lash because the Power Lash proc scales to 36% more than the bonus of Seething Fury and is AoE where Molten stays single target. This lets the Flame Lash players proc a massive AoE direct burst every 20 seconds for 5x applications; all while healing for as much health as Seething Fury grants as damage, per cast. Those players can, basically, just slap Power Lash without even having to care about incoming attacks with a heal component that high so the nerf will dial those users back by a lot.

I can't speak to everything. I just know what I see in my death recap, and it's always molten lol

The heal nerf does absolutely nothing lol. I use Power Lash in BG as a noob stomper build because there's always a target to OB, but it doesn't matter because I just blockcast it while core of flame and vigor is ticking. Healing is already reduced by battle spirit so idk why people think the power lash heal is meaningful when the oppressive damage forces people to turtle and back off and saves you HP more than the healing. And spamming the 5x is a waste because people block and roll when they realize which morph you have. Vary the timing and slap people unexpectedly. If facing a competent opponent, then switch to molten whip morph for guaranteed single target.

ketsparrowhawk · August 11

This is incredibly effective against even high tier MMR players as I also have high Pen; the combination of that much damage and Pen is going to shred most anyone’s health and put them right on the defensive. Even with Battle Spirit active and a player with full block mitigation you’re looking at around a 15k hit post resistances, that’s 50% of the average PvP players health bar, and that’s worst case scenario.

It wouldn't be nearly enough for the players I'm used to playing with. And I'm not sure about that mitigation math. 42k after battle spirit and block should be around 10.5k not counting resistance/protection/etc.