A SOLUTION to Botting?

xylus289_ESO · May 2014

Is there no built in anti-cheat?

If there is why can't it detect accounts using a program that alters the files in the game folder that would cause such capabilities such as moving through the ground or teleporting?
Wouldn't the anti-cheat run in the background while the game client is active and be able to do it's job?

Yeah sure not all anti-cheat programs are perfect. For example Punkbuster for Counter Strike or Battlefield is sort of bad and you get hackers here and there...but it keeps a lot of them at bay.

And if hackers are detected and removed isnt there a way to perma-ban the person by having the servers block an accounts PC or router IP and MAC?

Is it not possible permanently make sure that someone on a specific network or PC cannot ever connect to the ESO servers, I mean come on ZoS..I love you guys, but wtf.

Any other ideas out there?

Dita · May 2014

xylus289_ESO wrote: »

A SOLUTION to Botting?

You really think, what it's a final solution to the bot question ?

Pewpie · May 2014

And if hackers are detected and removed isnt there a way to perma-ban the person by having the servers block an accounts PC or router IP and MAC?

Is it not possible permanently make sure that someone on a specific network or PC cannot ever connect to the ESO servers, I mean come on ZoS..I love you guys, but wtf.

It is fairly easy for someone with knowledge (and the people behind bots are more so than we would like to think i suppose) to go through routers and whatever so spoof their origins.

I don't think banning IP's or networks is a good solution to get rid of bots. I advocate in-game mechanics that really makes botting invalid. What mechanics it could be... i guess the devs with big salaries should be able to come up with it

The problem is they are probably more focused on getting craglorn released than fixing issues like this... for whatever weird reason.

Selstad · May 2014

One of the biggest problem they have is figuring out a solution that is server sided and not client side. A client side solution would just be reverse engineered and countered within weeks, so that's not a permanent solution.

IP / character name banning isn't a viable solution either, people that seriously use botting make sure that their IP isn't compromised, so they hide behind fake IPs. Banning through IP wouldn't help, and they also use compromised accounts or stolen CCs to do their work so that's not a viable solution either.

Having a server sided solution is more or less the only way to do it, since that would leave it harder to counteract. The problem here is that they have to have the client and the server talk to each other about the file structure and what programs are running along side with eso, which is an action that the Windows API doesn't allow without you permitting it. And that leaves your computer compromised as well, as it would compromise account security and make it way easier to implement cracks to your eso file without you even knowing it. Something as simple as information stored in a JPG file could be enough then to compromise your security.

So there aren't any "easy" solution to botting problems. Most MMOs counter botting simply by being present in the hidden and monitoring their in-game actions. It's costly and time consuming, but the most effective way. You can't remove bots, but you can hinder them.

murklor007neb18_ESO · May 2014

xylus289_ESO wrote: »

And if hackers are detected and removed isnt there a way to perma-ban the person by having the servers block an accounts PC or router IP and MAC?

Pretty easy to change your IP though.

Anyway, I still think ZOS should just be a little evil. Or at least inventive.

Take a zone and for 5 minutes change it so that when clicking a gathering node - any node - you get a notice that its been boobytrapped by dominon/covenant/pact guards and it automatically teleport you to a prison ship.

Once on that prison ship, you have to argue with an NPC guard about releasing you. He has random dialogue and appear at a random location. Teleport on the ship is disabled, so that's your only way out. Logging out on the ship still leaves your character ingame. Failure to leave the ship within 5 minutes result in automatic punishment (say 12h ban).

Come on, it'd be fun. I can imagine a game master slowly walking around going "Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. How the *** did you end up here? The guard is over there. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Lol that bot is still running on the spot. Ban. Ban."

Pewpie · May 2014

So there aren't any "easy" solution to botting problems. Most MMOs counter botting simply by being present in the hidden and monitoring their in-game actions. It's costly and time consuming, but the most effective way. You can't remove bots, but you can hinder them.

Simply make so that botting isn't a valid thing to do.

In the extremes:
1. They sell gold to players. = remove possibility to transfer gold or items between players

Okay, that is probably not the best solution since much of the game is based on trading. But that is the key area where to start looking into the bot problem IMO. Make gold selling harder. Someone can probably come up with a good solution to make it almost impossible for bots to get rid of their stash.

Examples:
1. Hunt the gold/item buyers. Make it an official game RULE. When a bot network is exposed, anyone that got gold from them (they do keep logs of transfers I am pretty sure) are stripped from all gear and all gold in the WHOLE account. This will make people think more than once before accepting gold from someone.
2. Add server anti-cheats. To prevent teleporting or other means of tranporting your character the server can perform checks whenever you KILL a mob or HARVEST a node. Compare the distance between your last two actions and if not enough time has passed, you are FLAGGED for cheating put IN A CAGE waiting for investigation by a GM.
3. Add level checks for node harvesting.
4. Add level checks for getting certain quests that allow you into other areas.
5. Do not allow shrine transportation to a shrine you have not PREVIOUSLY VISITED by foot. NO tp to people if they are at a place you have not explored, tough luck... explore more.
6. Add a captcha check with creating new characters.
7. Add a captcha check when logging into the game.
8. Add a captcha check when sending in-game emails.

I guess people can come up with greater ideas than this!

mips_winnt · May 2014

Pewpie wrote: »

So there aren't any "easy" solution to botting problems. Most MMOs counter botting simply by being present in the hidden and monitoring their in-game actions. It's costly and time consuming, but the most effective way. You can't remove bots, but you can hinder them.

Simply make so that botting isn't a valid thing to do.

In the extremes:
1. They sell gold to players. = remove possibility to transfer gold or items between players

Okay, that is probably not the best solution since much of the game is based on trading. But that is the key area where to start looking into the bot problem IMO. Make gold selling harder. Someone can probably come up with a good solution to make it almost impossible for bots to get rid of their stash.

Actually I think this is the only guaranteed solution, however the big downside is that it eliminates the player to player commerce aspect which many people enjoy. If there is no player to player commerce (in other words everything is sold through NPC's and nothing is transferable from player to player) then there is no reason for gold/item sellers to bother with the game.

Alternatively you could just have only finished crafted items be transferable from player to player (i.e. you could give your friends/guildees stuff you craft) which would still leave some item sellers in business but it's a much harder market to service since they'd have to keep significant inventories and level bots to the point where they could craft items that players would actually want to spend real currency on.

Based on what I've seen in other MMO's technical solutions will result in varying degrees of success however the gold/item sellers will inevitably find work arounds.

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Again, people. Look at WoW. 10 years, and they still have bots.

There is no solution to the problem that doesn't involve players becoming decent people.

Daendur · May 2014

Am I the only one not having problems with bots/gold sellers ?
I mean, i'm playing the game, i'm enjoying it. Sometimes i receive a mail from someone that whises to help me, i delete it and go on with my game....
Sometime i find a dungeon a bit crowdy, i kill the boss and go out to keep on questing ...

i think ppl are exaggerating

AlexDougherty · May 2014

xylus289_ESO wrote: »

And if hackers are detected and removed isnt there a way to perma-ban the person by having the servers block an accounts PC or router IP and MAC?

IP bans don't work, especially with dynamic IP addresses, and Mac Addresses can be changed quite easily. Also what happens when there are two accounts in the same house and one gets banned and the other doesn't.

Which is why ZOS bans accounts not IP or Mac Addresses.

Pewpie wrote: »

1. Hunt the gold/item buyers. Make it an official game RULE. When a bot network is exposed, anyone that got gold from them (they do keep logs of transfers I am pretty sure) are stripped from all gear and all gold in the WHOLE account. This will make people think more than once before accepting gold from someone.
2. Add server anti-cheats. To prevent teleporting or other means of tranporting your character the server can perform checks whenever you KILL a mob or HARVEST a node. Compare the distance between your last two actions and if not enough time has passed, you are FLAGGED for cheating put IN A CAGE waiting for investigation by a GM.
3. Add level checks for node harvesting.
4. Add level checks for getting certain quests that allow you into other areas.
5. Do not allow shrine transportation to a shrine you have not PREVIOUSLY VISITED by foot. NO tp to people if they are at a place you have not explored, tough luck... explore more.
6. Add a captcha check with creating new characters.
7. Add a captcha check when logging into the game.
8. Add a captcha check when sending in-game emails.

I guess people can come up with greater ideas than this!

1. is problematic, you have to prove the person buying from them wasn't conducting a legitimate trade. (I know but prove it, as in a court of law)
2. Good idea, provided they don't hamper proper player (or those using FoV Mod).
3. Problematic, bots will just grind until they meet the requirements, and legitimate players might be locked out due to missing a few quests (and some like to do it as low a level as possible)
4. See 3. mandatory quest completion might be better (main quest, faction quests, and say three random ones)
5. Good idea.
6. & 7. & 8. God no, this would be annoying as heck, and because it seems to work, it would end up being applied periodically to chat. Bye-bye to 90% of the players then.

Selstad · May 2014

1. Hunt the gold/item buyers. Make it an official game RULE. When a bot network is exposed, anyone that got gold from them (they do keep logs of transfers I am pretty sure) are stripped from all gear and all gold in the WHOLE account. This will make people think more than once before accepting gold from someone.

This is actually enforced already, if you purchase gold and get caught, chances are you're getting banned. Problem here is that the one that sold you the gold will be back in mere minutes while you're out for days if you're lucky, weeks if you're not.

2. Add server anti-cheats. To prevent teleporting or other means of tranporting your character the server can perform checks whenever you KILL a mob or HARVEST a node. Compare the distance between your last two actions and if not enough time has passed, you are FLAGGED for cheating put IN A CAGE waiting for investigation by a GM.

Problem here is that some nods are close to each other, per example you harvest some clothing material next to a flower, and just a few paces away is a wood log to cut. The variables would be very extensive, and it would also put an extra load on the server, having to calculate multiple scenarios and conclude. It's also easy for a boter to "cheat" this system by adding paced intervals between the nods. It's a good suggestion, but not viable in the long run.

3. Add level checks for node harvesting.
4. Add level checks for getting certain quests that allow you into other areas.
5. Do not allow shrine transportation to a shrine you have not PREVIOUSLY VISITED by foot. NO tp to people if they are at a place you have not explored, tough luck... explore more.
6. Add a captcha check with creating new characters.
7. Add a captcha check when logging into the game.
8. Add a captcha check when sending in-game emails.

These points will only add frustration and irritation for the players, and not so much the actual boters. Boters have already managed to get an API up and running that runs eso.exe and adds coordination teleportation, so if you're going illegal anyway, they won't bother too much about the teleport restrictions. As for captcha, it would be a minor inconvenience for the botters and a major irritation for the players.

The problem with finding a solution to bot problems is how much freedom are you going to sacrifice for the players in terms of getting rid of the botters. The only viable solution these days are to offer a service that's better, cheaper and legal to what the botters do, take away their source and you solve the problem. The source however are the players. We are the botters source, because we always need materials and gold to "live our life" in the MMO world. So to neutralize that source, you need to provide that source with an option that competes with the botters, and that means in-game stores with real money trading. And even that isn't as viable as it used to be, as companies have to pay of their income to taxes and such, and therefore can't drive the prices to the bottom, they can drive them some way down, but in the end, the botters will have an upper hand as they don't have to declare or pay taxes of their income.

So a 100% workable solution would win you the Noble price of Interwebs. Happy hunting

UnholyPerfection · May 2014

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

xylus289_ESO wrote: »

And if hackers are detected and removed isnt there a way to perma-ban the person by having the servers block an accounts PC or router IP and MAC?

Pretty easy to change your IP though.

Anyway, I still think ZOS should just be a little evil. Or at least inventive.

Take a zone and for 5 minutes change it so that when clicking a gathering node - any node - you get a notice that its been boobytrapped by dominon/covenant/pact guards and it automatically teleport you to a prison ship.

Once on that prison ship, you have to argue with an NPC guard about releasing you. He has random dialogue and appear at a random location. Teleport on the ship is disabled, so that's your only way out. Logging out on the ship still leaves your character ingame. Failure to leave the ship within 5 minutes result in automatic punishment (say 12h ban).

Come on, it'd be fun. I can imagine a game master slowly walking around going "Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. How the *** did you end up here? The guard is over there. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Ban. Lol that bot is still running on the spot. Ban. Ban."

I love this idea haha.

KerinKor · May 2014

Selstad wrote: »

This is actually enforced already, if you purchase gold and get caught, chances are you're getting banned.

Link please.

When asked point-blank "ESO do you ban BUYERS" they refused to answer and I see no 'downside' to them if they said 'yes' but clearly a 'no' would damage them so they said nothing: silence = 'no' in my book here.

KerinKor · May 2014

Selstad wrote: »

Boters have already managed to get an API up and running that runs eso.exe and adds coordination teleportation

If this is true then it's absolute proof that the entire problem is caused by stupid software architecture that put the client in charge and the server the slave to do the client's bidding.

A total fail in MMO design to put control logic on a hackable client.

Aeradon · May 2014

Please don't ban IP, I'm from South East Asia, and whenever they enforce IP ban, I don't get to play.

These hackers/botters will continue to do the same even after the IP ban. And I'll become a sad little boy unable to play with my kitty.

I suggest banning accounts with repetitive character deletion. Nobody deletes more than 12 characters a day. My maximum was 9 in ESO and it's cause I keep making mistakes.

AlexDougherty · May 2014

KerinKor wrote: »

Selstad wrote: »

This is actually enforced already, if you purchase gold and get caught, chances are you're getting banned.

Link please.

When asked point-blank "ESO do you ban BUYERS" they refused to answer and I see no 'downside' to them if they said 'yes' but clearly a 'no' would damage them so they said nothing: silence = 'no' in my book here.

Silence can also mean "we don't want to comment, in case we are unable to act at some point". Sometimes saying something gets people saying "yeah, but you didn't ban So&So and I KNOW he's a goldseller".

Selstad · May 2014

Link please.

When asked point-blank "ESO do you ban BUYERS" they refused to answer and I see no 'downside' to them if they said 'yes' but clearly a 'no' would damage them so they said nothing: silence = 'no' in my book here.

Common practice in any MMOs to be fair, it's easy to track, and them refusing to state anything is an indication enough that they are, but they aren't discussing either what tactics they have against botters. That's just common sense not to.

If this is true then it's absolute proof that the entire problem is caused by stupid software architecture that put the client in charge and the server the slave to do the client's bidding.

A total fail in MMO design to put control logic on a hackable client.

Any game client is crackable in any MMO, there are 2 tons of API for WoW out there, just google and be amazed at what you find. It's not stupid game design but a limitation in how an OS works. You have to put as much as possible on the client side. Though with the increased use of clouds and cloud gaming, I'm certain that within 5-8 years, MMOs will be based on servers where you stream your gameplay from that server, meaning that both the server and client is based on remote locations and only small connection files are located on your computer. This however won't be the "norm" for some time since the internet structure in many countries are poor, and such technology requires a certain connection type to work. But that is the future of MMOs anyway.

So ESO isn't alone in having API environment that runs on top of the game. And that's why it's hard to stay in front of the curve, you have a few company heads against the entire cracking community doing it "for the sport". Not easy then for them.

ThisOnePosts · May 2014

They can get rid of bots at least mostly --- enough to make it not really worth while. But they (ZOS) have said already that they don't want to make moves that would also punish players just to keep bots at bay. I'd prefer they found a better way and on-going method to deal with them as they seem to be testing out, as opposed to punishing everyone else as they said they don't want to do.

The best way to keep bots at bay is for the community to do its part and report them whenever they see them, receive mail, in chat, etc.. mass bannings over and over and over again will really start to put a limit on their operations. Also it should be tracked when people send 1,000+ gold to someone for free, and if a pattern occurs they should have to answer some questions. If it's to the same account over and over who then uses the gold... probably a real life friend/significant other, etc... if it's to all different accounts, they should issue infractions to the buyers (those who probably paid real life cash) and then of course ban the gold sellers. They are all related... bots, gold spammers, gold sellers, etc..

Amsel_McKay · May 2014

The level 2 bot train in Colharbor has to be the easiest fix set a limit on how many characters you can create a day or make any quest 10 levels more then you not completable.

Even if you report the node stealing, colharbor bots it does not matter beause they delete them and create new ones. I videoed the train and in 20mins 307 bots of different names popped up from underground.

ccfreak2k · May 2014

UnholyPerfection wrote: »

I love this idea haha.

The problem with that idea, at least as it's presented here, is that it's a preemptive punishment.