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The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article
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metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've been frustrated, too, by companions speaking over other NPC voice lines, but for this quest line, I'm not bringing a companion along. I feel more like a successful sneak-thief if I don't have someone trailing along after me. Not that I'm always so successful at it--the number of heists I don't complete in time tells its own tale.
I do chuckle sometimes when I'm supposed to be doing something quietly, but there's a companion with me, my big bear is just standing around, and there's a non-combat pet rolling around or being loud/flashy, depending on which one I have out.
Haha, yeah, it is funny to be hiding in a barrel from the lantern people while my kitty rolls around, playing with a butterfly, right in front of them. You'd think they'd wonder where that kitty came from, but actually, they never do look down, do they?
Oof...well, sometimes Sheogorath dialogue isn't so bad. Well, I'll see at some point how this story goes. I won't be starting it any time very soon.
I didn't say you would be bothered.But, back to topic: The problem is that daedric princes don't actually have a biological physical body, but are basically made of energy, so one can't draw conclusions between them, and, say, the average Altmer, Breton or hound, because they're biologically really completely different things.
If we want to get really very technical, we don't actually know what the denizens of Nirn are composed of, biologically speaking. At least one of them is apparently also creatia, so is the Vestige even sentient?You think a mass of tentacles with eyeballs is a form that makes sense for the average mortal mind?
More sense than a confusing pattern of impossible geometry formed from ever-changing rays of light or whatever they might "truly" be. In the end, every brain works with pattern recognition. It tries to make sense of the world, in ways it can comprehend. In some cases this leads to things not actually being perceived as how they actually look - think of optical illusions, for example. Also, colors don't truly exist. It's all just electromagnetic waves of different wavelengths, and our eyes make them look like colors. And eyes of other species see them differently.
So what a daedric prince truly is, and what is perceived by a mortal, might be entirely different things.
I'm aware of how the brain works really hard to make sense of the world, but what I question is that, being confronted with "impossible geometry formed from ever-changing rays of light" you think a mass of tentacles with eyeballs is what the mind would settle on as "making sense." Why not a more humanoid form, as the other Princes appear? Why, when confronted with Meridia would the brain say, "Ok, lady of light." And when confronted with Mora, it would say, "Writhing mass of tentacle eyeballs." And when confronted with Vile, it would say, "Hey, this one has a dog." If a Daedric Prince's appearance is all down to what the mortals of Nirn think they look like, why such variety? Or, conversely, why aren't their appearances more wildly varied, if it's all just down to the individual who is perceiving them?As far as the definition of living goes: cells and metabolism--we don't know if the Princes have those or not, since no one has ever been in a position to confirm that, but I'm willing to bet they don't, since they are made of creatia. Grows, reproduces, reacts on its environment: if growth means 'was once a baby and is now an adult,' then no, they don't grow; Molag Bal at least is said to have children/spawn, so one of them at least has some level of reproduction; not sure what constitutes reacting to the environment, but every time we go to one of their realms, they do something about it. Obviously they are capable of movement. As for evolve: not in the classical Darwinian sense, they don't, but there have been a couple of notable evolutions/changes for a couple of them. So they're, what: half-living? Some weird space between living and not living?
In any way they do not meet the criteria for biological life (meeting just a few of them isn't enough per definition). What they are? Who knows. But them obviously not being the average lifeform comparable to humans or elves is the very reason I find it a pity that they are portrayed in such a "mundane" way, especially lately. There could be something more mysterious and hard to comprehend about them and their actions, considering they are supposed to be something mysterious and foreign.
Some of that portrayal has got to be down the limitations of the medium, but largely it's down to the established lore. As far as I understand it, the Princes can choose what form they want to look like, so that's what we see. I agree they could be less common in stories, and their actions harder for us to parse, but too much of that risks us going too far in the direction of senseless and zany--like Sheogorath times 10.I suppose an enemy could have tried such a thing. Taken that information, run to Cyrodiil with it, found the person in question, (who was hiding somewhere), warned them, and then gotten back to Skywatch in time for the next day's favour. Sure, why not. My character didn't do that. Did yours? I know you don't like Urcelmo--are you his enemy, too?
I don't dislike him, I just didn't find him particularly interesting in base game. He's also lucky that Great House Telvanni has no interest in the war, so I did not forward the info to the Pact.
Which info? The Pact already knew they lost that one battle. The name of one Aldmeri Dominion member who was possibly a member of a rogue group who wants more war? Or the name of the Eye of the Queen? From what I've seen, all the secret spy agencies in each alliance seemingly already know who the spies are for the other two alliances. They're all really quite casual about it already. Does make me wonder how Razum-dar gets any real spy work done since he's so famous. Same with Naryu and Copper Dariah. Well, I guess they mostly delegate anyway.
I've also wondered if ZOS is ever going to move the whole 'peace talks' storyline forward. I mean in game, not just in letters from Lady Arabelle. Obviously the Cyrodiil zone will always be there and always be at war, similar to the way the anchors will always drop even though we ended the planemeld (and the bards will always be singing about how the planemeld is nigh). But would a 'cease-fire' or 'truce' story work, do you think? An official lore end to the hostilities? Or are we doomed to this forever war?What I like is that the Thieves Guild quest has three different ways you can start it. You can pick it up from the crown store, of course (which isn't something I like to do to start quests), you can just happen upon it if you use the Daggerfall wayshrine, or you can get it from Quen herself in the Abah's Landing Thieves Guild. I was there to do a heist, saw Quen had a quest marker, and so picked it up from here there.
Unfortunately, if you do take the quest from Quen in the Thieves Guild in Abah's Landing, that isn't reflected in the dialogue with Skeever Nivo. You can say "Quen's a friend," if you knew her from before, but you can't say, "Quen told me to meet her here." And then, in the end, Skeever will tell you all about Quen as if you don't know her anyway. That's what I meant about the arrangement of the dialogue being a bit off. As far as how much he tells us--he's expositon NPC and, like all exposition NPCs in the game, he tells us all the details. I chose the neutral option with him as the others didn't feel like they fit my character.
I didn't know about the different start locations for the questline. When it comes to dialogue options, I mostly found myself choosing the neutral one so far, just like it had been in Solstice. But it was just quest 1, we'll see how it continues! I hope I'll be able to continue questing later today.
I found myself choosing the non-neutral options more times this go around. I really think they dialled in the responses a little better this time around.I enjoyed the conversation with Quen, and I don't mind that the other characters from the original quest aren't involved. It makes sense that the Guild sent one person to try to establish a new chapter, and as far as her being the one ZOS decided on: she's popular.
It looks like it's still following the old pattern that we saw with chapters, with there mostly being one returning "host character" leading through the new storyline. Not all the time (Leramil was new, for example), but they did that quite often, with Eveli, Lyris, etc.
That's true, but I think this one has more of a reason for it, because it's a direct sequel. It would be strange if we didn't have anyone from the original Thieves Guild involved.I did choose the flirt options in this quest, because to me they didn't seem like flirting so much as teasing familiarity, and Quen's responses fit that, at least in my mind. There will be at least one more flirt option (haven't finished the quest line yet, so don't know how many more times one can flirt with her) that is more decidedly flirtatious (and so I didn't choose that one). I like that they gave some nuance to the flirt lines and I think they made sense for when they showed up.
I just found that dialogue option friendly, showing familiarity in a way, which especially makes sense for characters who have just finished the first Thieves Guild storyline before, or interact with the guild regularly. It would actually have been what my character would have most likely said, but since it was labeled the way it was, I thought I better don't choose it, not knowing if it might lead into a direction I didn't intend. It's a bit of a pity, but I'm really not sure how much weight choosing one such dialogue option might have or not.
I don't know if there's some kind of tally being kept behind the scenes for which player response we choose. It would be cool if the dialogue trees could be more dynamic based on these responses, and that if you're likely to choose the surly response, for example, the future dialogue would show that--like maybe the NPC would become a bit brusque or reserved towards you. However, in this case, for that first quest, the flirty options didn't sound too flirty overall to me, so I felt fine having my character say them to Quen, because they are friends and know each other well enough for that kind of familiarity. I felt like her responses were in the same vein, so I didn't feel weird for having chosen that option.I also got 'caught' by the cartel, but that was because I was too focused on taking the lootable things and the timer ran out. I knew it was a timed quest, but I thought I would be fast enough to grab a bunch of stuff and make it out. Next character I take through, I'm going to concentrate just on getting out unseen (maybe grab one thing) and see how that ends up.
In my case, there was still plenty of time left, so it made me wonder if it was a scripted event that happens in any way. Or maybe using the Blade Of Woe counted as having been detected by the npc and a specific number of detections also leads to that outcome?! It still felt a bit weird as I had the feeling my character was getting along quite fine.
Well, if you still had plenty of time left and still got caught, maybe it was down to all the murder you were doing. I did kill a couple of people, but mostly I was doing my best to sneak by them, and it wasn't until the timer ran out that I got caught.It does sound like you got some sort of earlier version of text that hadn't been cleaned up/translated. What a strange and unfortunate bug.
For me, it wasn't that bad since I could also listen to the correct text, but for people who rely on the written text only, this indeed is an unfortunate bug.
Ah, right, I just remembered: The Night Market will not return at the end of this year. It's postponed to early 2017. Which again made me think that this is mostly a testing ground for upcoming content - if they didn't get the stuff ready to test yet, having the Market return also makes no sense.
Early 2017, you say? Let's get out that old time-travel machine, then! ;-P
No, I know you meant 2027, and I was a little surprised to see that. But they did say it was an experimental zone, so you're probably right and they don't have the experiments ready yet.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If we want to get really very technical, we don't actually know what the denizens of Nirn are composed of, biologically speaking. At least one of them is apparently also creatia, so is the Vestige even sentient?
The Vestige is supposed to be a perfect copy of the person that was sacrified to Molag Bal, just made of daedric matter instead of what mortals are usually made of in Nirn. If the original brain was also perfectly copied, perhaps sentience is possible.I'm aware of how the brain works really hard to make sense of the world, but what I question is that, being confronted with "impossible geometry formed from ever-changing rays of light" you think a mass of tentacles with eyeballs is what the mind would settle on as "making sense." Why not a more humanoid form, as the other Princes appear? Why, when confronted with Meridia would the brain say, "Ok, lady of light." And when confronted with Mora, it would say, "Writhing mass of tentacle eyeballs." And when confronted with Vile, it would say, "Hey, this one has a dog." If a Daedric Prince's appearance is all down to what the mortals of Nirn think they look like, why such variety? Or, conversely, why aren't their appearances more wildly varied, if it's all just down to the individual who is perceiving them?
If a mortal would look at some object that is composed in a way their brain could not fully comprehend or correctly perceive it, I'd guess the brain, trying to make sense of it, would probably perceive the closest possible comprehensible form to the original incomprehensible one, and not something completely random?Some of that portrayal has got to be down the limitations of the medium, but largely it's down to the established lore. As far as I understand it, the Princes can choose what form they want to look like, so that's what we see.
They can choose to be seen in a specific way by mortals, yes. But that doesn't mean the way a mortal perceives them must absolutely be physical reality. Or who knows, maybe they can actually just project a specific image into a mortal's mind, no matter how far away it might be from their real form? Basically like a form of illusion magic.I agree they could be less common in stories, and their actions harder for us to parse, but too much of that risks us going too far in the direction of senseless and zany--like Sheogorath times 10.
I see that making them utterly confusing would not appeal to many people, but at least a litte bit less obvious and humanized would really be much more interesting to me, especially in the long term.Which info? The Pact already knew they lost that one battle. The name of one Aldmeri Dominion member who was possibly a member of a rogue group who wants more war? Or the name of the Eye of the Queen?
In the right hands, that's useful info. I could immediately come up with a hundred horrible things to do with it. Then again, you're right: The whole spy business in Tamriel seems rather weird.I've also wondered if ZOS is ever going to move the whole 'peace talks' storyline forward. I mean in game, not just in letters from Lady Arabelle. Obviously the Cyrodiil zone will always be there and always be at war, similar to the way the anchors will always drop even though we ended the planemeld (and the bards will always be singing about how the planemeld is nigh). But would a 'cease-fire' or 'truce' story work, do you think? An official lore end to the hostilities? Or are we doomed to this forever war?
I think it could be done. I'm not sure though if ZOS wants to go that way. It's all kept very vague so far. I think if they were truly heading into that direction, we would have already seen some kind of real progress in one of the past storylines, in particular in High Isle, or also last year in Solstice, with the troops of the different factions closely cooperating anway.That's true, but I think this one has more of a reason for it, because it's a direct sequel. It would be strange if we didn't have anyone from the original Thieves Guild involved.
I meant that they really focused on having 1 "host character" again. They could have chosen to bring back more people, but it's the principle of 1 host leading through a story with mostly new faces again.I don't know if there's some kind of tally being kept behind the scenes for which player response we choose. It would be cool if the dialogue trees could be more dynamic based on these responses, and that if you're likely to choose the surly response, for example, the future dialogue would show that--like maybe the NPC would become a bit brusque or reserved towards you.
Since I didn't use flirt options with Darien, I don't know. It might also be a more linear principle instead of a counter, as in one flirt option simply unlocking the next one.Well, if you still had plenty of time left and still got caught, maybe it was down to all the murder you were doing. I did kill a couple of people, but mostly I was doing my best to sneak by them, and it wasn't until the timer ran out that I got caught.
The only "issue" I have with it (well, I'm not really bothered, I was just surprised) is that I used the Blade of Woe and, according to the UI, had not been detected. So getting caught out of the blue was just strange. Maybe I'll try being less murderous the next time. On the other hand, had I not murdered them, that cutscene wouldn't have shown. Which was actually quite an interesting addition, I think. Actually I even think it's a pity some people might have missed it (if it was no scripted event happening to every player).Early 2017, you say? Let's get out that old time-travel machine, then! ;-P
No, I know you meant 2027, and I was a little surprised to see that. But they did say it was an experimental zone, so you're probably right and they don't have the experiments ready yet.
Just a week ago or so I wrote "1927". Happens, I guess, if one mostly works with old documents and writes down historical dates much more often than the current one.
I played the first Sheogorath quest, by the way. A strange decision, perhaps, considering I have not finished the Thieves Guild questline yet (I still haven't progressed it from where I stopped a few days ago, after the end of quest 1), but somehow I didn't want to keep that first Sheogorath quest in my questlog half-finished (especially knowing it's just a short introduction anyway) - I just don't like stopping mid-quest somewhere. So I resumed it from the location where the game had crashed. Don't worry, I'm not going into detail now, as long as you haven't played it yet, just a few general impressions: I was actually positively surprised. I expected utter nonsense, after having read so much negative feedback on these forums, and yes, there's also random weird humour I didn't like much, but there was also more than that.
There are some interesting lore bits strewn in which made me wonder if they would get elaborated on during the questline (the Coldharbor Compact was mentioned, for example), and I particularly found it interesting that Sheogorath actually mentions the aspects of being mortal that feel strange to him - which might be a chance to learn more about the nature of the daedric princes, how much they differ from mortals, and what they might be capable of or not (so, the very things we had been discussing here lately). Something Sheogorath seems (or claims) to find particularly strange is suddenly feeling emotions. Implying the daedric princes don't have them at all. No feelings, no emotional reactions, no actual sensual perception of the environment, too, it seems? I did find that interesting, and if the story explores that more, that wouldn't be bad at all. Actually that generally wouldn't be such a bad topic to explore: A daedric prince trying to find out what being human means. Not just having fun and eating cheese, but actually getting deeper into that topic (though I'm still not sure how it's lore-wise even possible he just becomes a mortal at will - I still find that doubtful, but okay, I won't question it for now). The big question is: Will the storyline lean into this direction, or will what looked like an interesting start somehow get lost in endless random jokes and blabbering about cheese? We'll see.
So far he also didn't feel that obnoxious, by the way. I usually found his speech style overly dramatic and not exactly pleasant, but this time, he actually sounds calmer and less weird (perhaps the current voice acting team was aware that having him sound like in base game for the whole new questline would be annoying - only speaking of the translation I play, of course; I haven't seen the new content in English yet). There's even a certain eerieness in how he, not sounding "cliché insane" in his way of speech but quite normal, makes horrible, cruel statements as if it's just the most normal thing in the world. It's much more impactful if he says these things in a calm, unfazed tone, instead of speaking in some exaggerated, very agitated sounding, "maniacal" way.
Edited by Syldras on August 1, 2026 3:07AM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭If we want to get really very technical, we don't actually know what the denizens of Nirn are composed of, biologically speaking. At least one of them is apparently also creatia, so is the Vestige even sentient?
The Vestige is supposed to be a perfect copy of the person that was sacrified to Molag Bal, just made of daedric matter instead of what mortals are usually made of in Nirn. If the original brain was also perfectly copied, perhaps sentience is possible.
If not, it would maybe explain why the player character comes across as...well...not so bright sometimes.
Of course, I believe I've mentioned before that I reject the whole 'player character is made of creatia' hypothesis. It's never actually clarified to us in game--as far as I know, there's only that one lorebook that theorizes about it. We wake up in cell, Lyris tells us we're dead, the Prophet later tells us we meet only the minimum requirements of existence because we have only a tiny bit of soul left, and we don't look like any of the other soul shriven. To me, that means we have our original bodies. As far as wayshrines and resurrection are concerned--those are game mechanics that don't need deep lore explanations.
No need to explain to me why I'm wrong, though--I've decided my characters are whole beings, and you aren't going to talk me out of it. ;-)I'm aware of how the brain works really hard to make sense of the world, but what I question is that, being confronted with "impossible geometry formed from ever-changing rays of light" you think a mass of tentacles with eyeballs is what the mind would settle on as "making sense." Why not a more humanoid form, as the other Princes appear? Why, when confronted with Meridia would the brain say, "Ok, lady of light." And when confronted with Mora, it would say, "Writhing mass of tentacle eyeballs." And when confronted with Vile, it would say, "Hey, this one has a dog." If a Daedric Prince's appearance is all down to what the mortals of Nirn think they look like, why such variety? Or, conversely, why aren't their appearances more wildly varied, if it's all just down to the individual who is perceiving them?
If a mortal would look at some object that is composed in a way their brain could not fully comprehend or correctly perceive it, I'd guess the brain, trying to make sense of it, would probably perceive the closest possible comprehensible form to the original incomprehensible one, and not something completely random?
Possibly, or just refuse to see anything at all. If something were truly incomprehensible, the brain might decide the thing doesn't actually exist and the person would chalk it up to hallucinatory lights or something.Some of that portrayal has got to be down the limitations of the medium, but largely it's down to the established lore. As far as I understand it, the Princes can choose what form they want to look like, so that's what we see.
They can choose to be seen in a specific way by mortals, yes. But that doesn't mean the way a mortal perceives them must absolutely be physical reality. Or who knows, maybe they can actually just project a specific image into a mortal's mind, no matter how far away it might be from their real form? Basically like a form of illusion magic.
I didn't say the forms they choose to present to us are 'absolutely physical reality.' I said they decide what they want to look like, and so that's what we see. I made no claim as to what their "true" form might be, or even if they have one. I will say, though, that based on the many statues/depictions over time, the Daedric Princes do prefer a rather consistent form for themselves. So regardless of what Dagon might actually look like or be, he certainly does enjoy showing up as a big red four armed dude. Same for the others--they seem to really like the forms we know them as.
That does make me wonder: if they can choose how to present themselves, why do so many of them go for a humanoid form? To make it easier for the inhabitants of Nirn to "trust" them? Because they know of the fragility of the mortal mind and its inability to comprehend the less mundane? Or because they have no imagination and they do only imitate, and humanoid is most of what they see/interact with?That's true, but I think this one has more of a reason for it, because it's a direct sequel. It would be strange if we didn't have anyone from the original Thieves Guild involved.
I meant that they really focused on having 1 "host character" again. They could have chosen to bring back more people, but it's the principle of 1 host leading through a story with mostly new faces again.
Story-wise, you do find out at the end of the quest line why the others haven't been around.
As to the idea of the host character, I understand that budget and development reasons might be the reason for that, though I also think there's a story-telling reason: having too many characters involved in a single story line of this size risks diluting the narrative impact. If a story line goes on long enough to adequately involve everyone from the past plus include new faces, it risks feeling like a slog. I don't know if I'm adequately explaining this. It's not like I wouldn't have liked seeing the other members of the original Thieves Guild again, and even seen more of their personal stories play out, but that, on top of the new characters and the new story, might have become a bit unwieldy.
Which would you prefer? A sequel with the same cast of NPCs or one of the former cast leading a new group of NPCs? I wouldn't have minded if Walks-Softly was part of the new venture in Daggerfall, but Velsa is supposedly retired, and Zeira presumably has a guild to run, so it would have been a bit odd to me to see them in Daggerfall. (Besides which, I'm not very fond of either of them.) I really like the new NPCS, too, particularly Edwane.I don't know if there's some kind of tally being kept behind the scenes for which player response we choose. It would be cool if the dialogue trees could be more dynamic based on these responses, and that if you're likely to choose the surly response, for example, the future dialogue would show that--like maybe the NPC would become a bit brusque or reserved towards you.
Since I didn't use flirt options with Darien, I don't know. It might also be a more linear principle instead of a counter, as in one flirt option simply unlocking the next one.
Yeah, I don't know how the Quen flirty options play out, either. When the wording started getting definitely flirty and suggestive, rather than just friendly banter, I didn't choose them. They still came up, though, so it's probably just there regardless of whether or not you ever used a previous one. To really know, I'd have to be able to go through all the combinations of the dialogue options involving the flirting, and I just don't have enough characters for that, or the interest to do so.Well, if you still had plenty of time left and still got caught, maybe it was down to all the murder you were doing. I did kill a couple of people, but mostly I was doing my best to sneak by them, and it wasn't until the timer ran out that I got caught.
The only "issue" I have with it (well, I'm not really bothered, I was just surprised) is that I used the Blade of Woe and, according to the UI, had not been detected. So getting caught out of the blue was just strange. Maybe I'll try being less murderous the next time. On the other hand, had I not murdered them, that cutscene wouldn't have shown. Which was actually quite an interesting addition, I think. Actually I even think it's a pity some people might have missed it (if it was no scripted event happening to every player).
If getting caught truly is something you can avoid, I think it's neat that there are divergent endings to that quest. Then the choices the player makes during that part of the quest have some manner of consequence--follow Quen's instructions and just get out smoothly and quietly; risk taking as many tempting prizes as you can and end up caught with the items confiscated. I really want to try to grab one item and make it out, and since I only have one other characater who has done the original Thieves Guild questline, I've got one chance to see if I can. I know that any of my characters can do the quest, but I only have two who do sneak-thief things and I don't like to push every character into every quest/guild/story.Early 2017, you say? Let's get out that old time-travel machine, then! ;-P
No, I know you meant 2027, and I was a little surprised to see that. But they did say it was an experimental zone, so you're probably right and they don't have the experiments ready yet.
Just a week ago or so I wrote "1927". Happens, I guess, if one mostly works with old documents and writes down historical dates much more often than the current one.
I played the first Sheogorath quest, by the way. A strange decision, perhaps, considering I have not finished the Thieves Guild questline yet (I still haven't progressed it from where I stopped a few days ago, after the end of quest 1), but somehow I didn't want to keep that first Sheogorath quest in my questlog half-finished (especially knowing it's just a short introduction anyway) - I just don't like stopping mid-quest somewhere. So I resumed it from the location where the game had crashed. Don't worry, I'm not going into detail now, as long as you haven't played it yet, just a few general impressions: I was actually positively surprised. I expected utter nonsense, after having read so much negative feedback on these forums, and yes, there's also random weird humour I didn't like much, but there was also more than that.
There are some interesting lore bits strewn in which made me wonder if they would get elaborated on during the questline (the Coldharbor Compact was mentioned, for example), and I particularly found it interesting that Sheogorath actually mentions the aspects of being mortal that feel strange to him - which might be a chance to learn more about the nature of the daedric princes, how much they differ from mortals, and what they might be capable of or not (so, the very things we had been discussing here lately). Something Sheogorath seems (or claims) to find particularly strange is suddenly feeling emotions. Implying the daedric princes don't have them at all. No feelings, no emotional reactions, no actual sensual perception of the environment, too, it seems? I did find that interesting, and if the story explores that more, that wouldn't be bad at all. Actually that generally wouldn't be such a bad topic to explore: A daedric prince trying to find out what being human means. Not just having fun and eating cheese, but actually getting deeper into that topic (though I'm still not sure how it's lore-wise even possible he just becomes a mortal at will - I still find that doubtful, but okay, I won't question it for now). The big question is: Will the storyline lean into this direction, or will what looked like an interesting start somehow get lost in endless random jokes and blabbering about cheese? We'll see.
So far he also didn't feel that obnoxious, by the way. I usually found his speech style overly dramatic and not exactly pleasant, but this time, he actually sounds calmer and less weird (perhaps the current voice acting team was aware that having him sound like in base game for the whole new questline would be annoying - only speaking of the translation I play, of course; I haven't seen the new content in English yet). There's even a certain eerieness in how he, not sounding "cliché insane" in his way of speech but quite normal, makes horrible, cruel statements as if it's just the most normal thing in the world. It's much more impactful if he says these things in a calm, unfazed tone, instead of speaking in some exaggerated, very agitated sounding, "maniacal" way.
Well, that certainly tempts me to get started on that quest sooner than I thought I would! I'm waiting for crowds to die down, but also to be in the correct state of mind to deal with Sheogorath. I've seen, of course, the threads talking about how bad the quest is, but haven't read any of them, because I want to go in as blind as I can.
What I've never liked about Sheogorath's voiced dialogue is the shouty bits. More correctly, the way he veers from cheerful to shouty and back again. I understand it's a vocal way of showing madness, but the cadence just seems too regular, in a way. I always found the way he said unsettling things in a normal voice to be more effective--like the casual way he calls us "puppy killer" in the beginning of the Mages Guild quest line, after we kill his Clannfear pet. That's much more effective to me than when he just starts shouting at Shalidor.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I didn't have time to read the forums or reply much in the past 2 days or so - but I was able to continue the Thieves Guild questline (My impression so far is that each quest takes about an hour of time; as usual: with listening to all dialogues, stealing at all locations, and taking notes). Maybe I should post that now, so you can already read it and already reply to it if you want. I will reply to your last message later!
Quest 2:We need to steal things from 3 locations.
One is the Ilessian tower once more - where I've been so often for that one event quest... I'm not even sure anymore what I fetched there; I only remember it was something for fireworks. When playing the new stories in the past 2 days, I somehow noticed I'm really not that fond of having quests added to old locations. Sure, meeting up in some town makes sense and is absolutely fine (as long as there is not too much background chatter so one barely can hear the new dialogues), I'm also absolutely fine for adding new houses, but getting into an old dungeon where there's just suddenly some new door or tunnel - it's not that interesting to me, and the more often I've already been there, the less appealing it is. I know they simply don't have the means to create a new zone with a completely new landscape regularly anymore, but I still want to mention it, as I really noticed it now how much (even more than I thought) I miss that when doing the new quests; and also the opposite: How much more interesting a task immediately feels if it's some new place (no matter how small). That sense of exploration really seems to be a big part of the appeal of questing for me.
So, we are about to enter the restricted zone and Abrasia (Who's the only new character I can remember the name of so far - it's a slightly cartoonish and silly naming choice for "the brute character", isn't it?) outright explains game mechanics to me - about getting detected, about detections subtracting time from the timer... I really disliked the way it was portrayed and worded (at least in German), because it really felt extremely unimmersive and game-y. There's more dialogue after the mission where it's portrayed like it was some test of skills by her, but I still found it unrealistic somehow - it's an urgent and dangerous situation (so not just some random test where the outcome wouldn't be that important), and she's running after me with a stop watch and counting points or what?! At least we could tell her we don't care for her stupid test - there really was a good selection of dialogue choices, actually giving us the possibility to voice three completely different opinions (Very much appreciated!). (As for the test: I wasn't really at risk of being detected anyway, as there were 2 other people running around just killing everything - they also didn't seem to like that test much.)
Then I needed to steal at the bank - the guard upstairs saw me, though I'm not sure how and why?! The UI showed me as hidden, but still, he got me the moment I was about to use the door to leave (which is unavoidable). He didn't confiscate anything, though - what a pity, if I had known that before, I would have stolen more!
The third task was getting after a Telvanni embassador (What's that? Why would we have an ambassador, and why would that embassador cooperate with the Mages Guild? I should really motivate Gothren more to finally kill the Archmagister; it's clear he's getting weird). So, the whole task is very scripted, with lots of bystanders with no dialogue who only react if one activates specific spots. While the course of events and animations were cute, I found it a bit of a pity that there was only that one way to progress, especially since we're told in dialogue that it was extremely hard (something along the lines of "if you manage to do that, then you're even a better thief than me"), but if we would manage pickpocketing the targets, we could also do that (so I really thought there were different ways). And honestly - I did that. I stole from them in the middle of the street and it wasn't even that difficult. But sadly, I stole until both of their inventories were empty, and that was it - it didn't do anything for the quest. So I had to progress the regular way. And that thief guy then even had the audacity to tell me I needed more practice before he allowed me to do more difficult tasks (despite obviously having proven to be a better thief than him).
And in the end, there were also bugs again - the usual disappearing quest markers, and again untranslated and incomplete dialogue texts (and in one case, the difference between written and spoken text was even that huge that there was not really any similarity at all). There was also one translated text with a wrong letter/symbol within the text (but generally readable, at least).
Quest 3:The quest began with a completely optional repetition of what happened, put into an extra dialogue branch - exactly the way it should be!
Then we were searching for books, lots of books! And I appreciate the amount of lorebooks we got there, in particular about Sage Voernet, and also that they were decently written. (There's just one little problem lately: The game often crashes when opening books. Not sure why, or if it's related to some addon that's not up to date - I will update them soon - , but it's a bit annoying.)
The puzzles/riddles we came across were easy for me, I immediately had an idea what to do - but I really liked the variety, and that they were quite creative (well, sorting those 3 books chronologically perhaps not that much, but I especially liked the one with the lock and with the statue, for example), especially compared to many other puzzles we got in the past few years, that much too often consisted of just clicking some item until someone yelled it was correct. Compared to those, these were actually riddles now. More of that in future content would be awesome.
And that poor daedra still dutifully guarding the room long after the mage had died! I wondered if that would even be possible, to still be bound to a task if the summoner wasn't alive anymore - wouldn't death end any arrangement?
What was a bit annoying was that, several times, all characters (the daedra and both thieves, and then even that one statue) were babbling at the same time, making it hard to understand any of them. Something is bugged there, because their dialogues were clearly triggered by solving the riddles, and having them all start talking at the same moment clearly can't have been intended.
But in general, I found quest 3 really fun. Even if it was a bit predictable, it was definitely entertaining.
Oh, and there was another flirt option with Quen. "Your plans are beautiful just as you", or what was it? Do people flirt like that (I have no clue, I have met all of my partner through shared hobbies)? Well, it's much better than the often awful lines we saw in Solstice! But it still feels a bit... random? Perhaps the problem isn't even so much the lines, but that we get these dialogue options in completely unrelated, unfitting situations, when we're actually supposed to do some other clearly more urgent thing. Generally it feels like there's rarely some time to just talk with characters for a bit (where such dialogues would feel more fitting from context).
As for the whole storyline so far: The different tasks certainly keep me going. I don't mind sneaking. I enjoyed the lorebooks and the riddles. I'm still a bit sceptical about the whole Sages Vault thing - both storywise (Not sure if it would really be valuable for the guild?), as well as technically, having storyline and that new system so closely tied together. I still have no clue how exactly, of course, I just wonder if a part of it will be needed to complete the Thieves Guild questline (which might be awful for people who hate puzzles), and also if whatever there might be story-wise within the Vault quests/tasks will be clearly related to the Thieves Guild story (which also wouldn't be ideal for people who don't like that - including people who play a strictly lawful character).
When it comes to the new characters, I somehow don't find them as likeable as the characters from the first Thieves Guild story a decade ago. They're okay, I guess, and yes, of course I feel sorry for those who had it bad (of course the majority has some tragic backstory), and I feel sorry for the old man getting almost murdered, but somehow I don't relate to them that much. I'm not even sure what it is exactly. Maybe they're a bit too one-note? Especially brute girl whose only interest seem to be stabbing people, or talking about stabbing people, or talking about people getting stabbed. That they keep complaining about each other like little children also doesn't help. I know it's probably a very valuable lesson about sticking together despite differences etc, but endless nagging drowns out all sense of adventure.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I didn't have time to read the forums or reply much in the past 2 days or so - but I was able to continue the Thieves Guild questline (My impression so far is that each quest takes about an hour of time; as usual: with listening to all dialogues, stealing at all locations, and taking notes). Maybe I should post that now, so you can already read it and already reply to it if you want. I will reply to your last message later!
Side note: this new spoiler format bugs me--where you have to click twice. Just add it to the list of forum changes I don't like. *grumble grumble*Quest 2:We need to steal things from 3 locations.
One is the Ilessian tower once more - where I've been so often for that one event quest... I'm not even sure anymore what I fetched there; I only remember it was something for fireworks. When playing the new stories in the past 2 days, I somehow noticed I'm really not that fond of having quests added to old locations. Sure, meeting up in some town makes sense and is absolutely fine (as long as there is not too much background chatter so one barely can hear the new dialogues), I'm also absolutely fine for adding new houses, but getting into an old dungeon where there's just suddenly some new door or tunnel - it's not that interesting to me, and the more often I've already been there, the less appealing it is. I know they simply don't have the means to create a new zone with a completely new landscape regularly anymore, but I still want to mention it, as I really noticed it now how much (even more than I thought) I miss that when doing the new quests; and also the opposite: How much more interesting a task immediately feels if it's some new place (no matter how small). That sense of exploration really seems to be a big part of the appeal of questing for me.
I don't mind them adding to the current landscape. True, it's not as exciting as a brand new place, but at least it was a newer section of an existing place.So, we are about to enter the restricted zone and Abrasia (Who's the only new character I can remember the name of so far - it's a slightly cartoonish and silly naming choice for "the brute character", isn't it?) outright explains game mechanics to me - about getting detected, about detections subtracting time from the timer... I really disliked the way it was portrayed and worded (at least in German), because it really felt extremely unimmersive and game-y. There's more dialogue after the mission where it's portrayed like it was some test of skills by her, but I still found it unrealistic somehow - it's an urgent and dangerous situation (so not just some random test where the outcome wouldn't be that important), and she's running after me with a stop watch and counting points or what?! At least we could tell her we don't care for her stupid test - there really was a good selection of dialogue choices, actually giving us the possibility to voice three completely different opinions (Very much appreciated!). (As for the test: I wasn't really at risk of being detected anyway, as there were 2 other people running around just killing everything - they also didn't seem to like that test much.)
Then I needed to steal at the bank - the guard upstairs saw me, though I'm not sure how and why?! The UI showed me as hidden, but still, he got me the moment I was about to use the door to leave (which is unavoidable). He didn't confiscate anything, though - what a pity, if I had known that before, I would have stolen more!
Abrasia's name is a bit on the nose, yes. She's abrasive, and so...well, not the choice I would have made, but at least it still sounds more or less like a name someone might have. For all we know, she gave herself that name at some point.Abrasia explaining the mechanics was a bit game-y, and after all her talk about timers, I expected the quest to actually have a timer, but it didn't. I also told her I didn't care about her stupid test, because not only did I not care, I've beaten timers in Heists before. Not often, no, but I have done it, so I didn't need yet another test about timers. Since I believe you can do this chain of quests without having done the first Thieves Guild content in Abah's landing, Abrasia's explanations of mechanics might be new to some players--that's the only reason I could think of for the dialogue being written that way.
I've seen on the forums about that bug with guards seeing you when you are stealthed--I think they're looking into it or have a fix in the works. Luckily I didn't run across that bug, but it's unfortunate that it's there and spoiling the experience.The third task was getting after a Telvanni embassador (What's that? Why would we have an ambassador, and why would that embassador cooperate with the Mages Guild? I should really motivate Gothren more to finally kill the Archmagister; it's clear he's getting weird). So, the whole task is very scripted, with lots of bystanders with no dialogue who only react if one activates specific spots. While the course of events and animations were cute, I found it a bit of a pity that there was only that one way to progress, especially since we're told in dialogue that it was extremely hard (something along the lines of "if you manage to do that, then you're even a better thief than me"), but if we would manage pickpocketing the targets, we could also do that (so I really thought there were different ways). And honestly - I did that. I stole from them in the middle of the street and it wasn't even that difficult. But sadly, I stole until both of their inventories were empty, and that was it - it didn't do anything for the quest. So I had to progress the regular way. And that thief guy then even had the audacity to tell me I needed more practice before he allowed me to do more difficult tasks (despite obviously having proven to be a better thief than him).
And in the end, there were also bugs again - the usual disappearing quest markers, and again untranslated and incomplete dialogue texts (and in one case, the difference between written and spoken text was even that huge that there was not really any similarity at all). There was also one translated text with a wrong letter/symbol within the text (but generally readable, at least).Not being Telvanni, I admit I didn't really notice (or care) why a Telvanni ambassador would be involved. I actually liked the idea of using reconaissance rather than just 'pickpocket X', so I enjoyed this part quite a bit. Plus, we get to meet Carso, and I love a good dog appearance. It would have been cool if you could progress the quest either with distractions or just outright pickpocketing. I thought, from the way this was set up, that it was introducing a new style of accomplishing objectives--that there would be other moments when we could use a similar style to complete a quest--but this was the only time such things came into play.
Some of my other observations about this quest:
I like how you can chooose the order in which to do the tasks. It's a small bit of freedom within the quest structure. It doesn't impact anything, of course, since you have to do all three, but it is nice to have a modicum of choice.
The introduction of somnal powder is pretty cool, and now I have bunch I carry with me at all times, and boy oh boy does it make completing heists on time so much easier!
The player response options have been pretty good and I found myself not just sticking to the neutral option.
I like the different gang leaders, and I enjoyed the dialogues of talking to them and finding out their back stories.
I thought it was interesting to use distractions to complete an objective, and I wish it would come up more rather than just be scripted like it was.
Quen's memory seemed to have suffered a bit. At the beginning, she told me the Yvierry estate showed I had potential. Um...what about all the stuff we did in Hew's Bane regarding her father's fate? She didn't see potential in me there? She also said, "So far, you show all the signs of being an examplary thief," as if I was new at this. She really shouldn't have any doubt about my abilities. Thankfully, after this quest, such lines don't come up again.Quest 3:The quest began with a completely optional repetition of what happened, put into an extra dialogue branch - exactly the way it should be!
Then we were searching for books, lots of books! And I appreciate the amount of lorebooks we got there, in particular about Sage Voernet, and also that they were decently written. (There's just one little problem lately: The game often crashes when opening books. Not sure why, or if it's related to some addon that's not up to date - I will update them soon - , but it's a bit annoying.)
The puzzles/riddles we came across were easy for me, I immediately had an idea what to do - but I really liked the variety, and that they were quite creative (well, sorting those 3 books chronologically perhaps not that much, but I especially liked the one with the lock and with the statue, for example), especially compared to many other puzzles we got in the past few years, that much too often consisted of just clicking some item until someone yelled it was correct. Compared to those, these were actually riddles now. More of that in future content would be awesome.
And that poor daedra still dutifully guarding the room long after the mage had died! I wondered if that would even be possible, to still be bound to a task if the summoner wasn't alive anymore - wouldn't death end any arrangement?
What was a bit annoying was that, several times, all characters (the daedra and both thieves, and then even that one statue) were babbling at the same time, making it hard to understand any of them. Something is bugged there, because their dialogues were clearly triggered by solving the riddles, and having them all start talking at the same moment clearly can't have been intended.
But in general, I found quest 3 really fun. Even if it was a bit predictable, it was definitely entertaining.
Yes, this quest was quite fun!
I like that, if you've done the Dresan Keep quest, you can just say, "The entrance is in a well." (Though not sure why we couldn't just use the door like a civlized person, like that one ghost told us at the end of that quest.) I also like the animation of us jumping into the well. Actually, there are a few animations for this quest series that I liked--such as the way we aggressively pick up the potions for Phynaster's test.
As for the puzzles--finally, the chance to solve a puzzle without an npc giving me half a second to figure it out and then blurting out the answer! I liked this very much and enjoyed the puzzles. I didn't have the issue of NPCs talking over one another, but when I first got there and was exploring the room and reading, Zyax continuing to spout his lines over and over was a bit much. Though I did feel sorry for him, all alone for who knows how long, with only a skeleton of Henard for company. And, once again, we have a dead body with all the flesh and tissue rotted away, but the clothing fully intact, and somehow the skeleton still assembled. A pile of bones in the tatters of cloth would have been more realistic. Oh, but I know: magic! That old wizard has been around doing things again.
I did like the choice about how to proceed for the next part of the quest, though I will say it was odd to see Darien and Gabrielle just hanging out at the Redoubt. It's too bad they couldn't have given us a phased version of the Redoubt that didn't include them being there, but oh well. We were both in the past and the present at the same time--metaphysical hijinks and all that.
For the end of the quest, I chose to send in the lion guard, though I did wonder how the conversation with the lieutenant might gone if I hadn't helped the Redoubt before. The actual battle in the cave bugged out for me--I killed everyone, but it didn't advance. I had to leave the cave and return to trigger it again, and thankfully that time it worked.
I thought it was interesting that Sansonne now recognized me--I had been wondering why everyone was so clueless about who I might be, when I normally I can't go to any city or town without someone calling out, "Hey, you're the one who..." It's realistic, though, that he didn't recognize me immediately, and I thought it was a good bit of story craft to have delayed recognition (since that's a thing that happens in real life and actually makes more sense than everyone just immediately recognizing my character).Oh, and there was another flirt option with Quen. "Your plans are beautiful just as you", or what was it? Do people flirt like that (I have no clue, I have met all of my partner through shared hobbies)? Well, it's much better than the often awful lines we saw in Solstice! But it still feels a bit... random? Perhaps the problem isn't even so much the lines, but that we get these dialogue options in completely unrelated, unfitting situations, when we're actually supposed to do some other clearly more urgent thing. Generally it feels like there's rarely some time to just talk with characters for a bit (where such dialogues would feel more fitting from context).
This is when I stopped using the flirt lines with Quen. As for whether people actually flirt like that--yes, I'm sure they do. Just as I'm sure there are people who flirt in all types of situations. For me, the question isn't whether anyone would flirt in that way and at that time--it's whether or not my character would. And since the answer is usually, "no, he would not," then I don't choose that line. It was a corny line, for sure, and I do wonder if the players who want to flirt with Quen like the flirt lines, or just choose them because they want to flirt with Quen and that's what they have to work with.As for the whole storyline so far: The different tasks certainly keep me going. I don't mind sneaking. I enjoyed the lorebooks and the riddles. I'm still a bit sceptical about the whole Sages Vault thing - both storywise (Not sure if it would really be valuable for the guild?), as well as technically, having storyline and that new system so closely tied together. I still have no clue how exactly, of course, I just wonder if a part of it will be needed to complete the Thieves Guild questline (which might be awful for people who hate puzzles), and also if whatever there might be story-wise within the Vault quests/tasks will be clearly related to the Thieves Guild story (which also wouldn't be ideal for people who don't like that - including people who play a strictly lawful character).
It is an interesting choice to pair the Sages Vault/Nowhere Vault with a Thieves Guild story. I won't say more on that until you've finished the quest line, but I have wondered if a player needs to have done this story to access the Vault when it arrives.When it comes to the new characters, I somehow don't find them as likeable as the characters from the first Thieves Guild story a decade ago. They're okay, I guess, and yes, of course I feel sorry for those who had it bad (of course the majority has some tragic backstory), and I feel sorry for the old man getting almost murdered, but somehow I don't relate to them that much. I'm not even sure what it is exactly. Maybe they're a bit too one-note? Especially brute girl whose only interest seem to be stabbing people, or talking about stabbing people, or talking about people getting stabbed. That they keep complaining about each other like little children also doesn't help. I know it's probably a very valuable lesson about sticking together despite differences etc, but endless nagging drowns out all sense of adventure.[/spoiler]
I like them all pretty well--even Abrasia--as far as characters go. I don't see them as being any more one-note than the original gang. Then again, I've completed the entire story. As for their complaints about one another, they don't seem like little children to me--adults complain all the time (witness this forum) and, in this case, we're asking three gangs who have been competitors and whose members have all probably had run-ins with one another to put aside their differences and co-operate. It's like the peace talks in High Isle, but on a smaller scale.
I finished up the favours today. Well, except for Lady Arabelle's last one. That is some really strange bug, where the quest just disappears from your log as soon as you arrive in the zone. Anyway, I liked that the final favours were new quests. My final box from Holgunn included the lead for the Sacred Chalice of Ysgramor and I admit my first thought was: couldn't you have given me a lead I haven't found sixteen times already? That Ysgramor, tossing chalices left and right. Are they considered 'sacred' just because his lips touched them once?
As for the letters and the stories they told: I liked them. On the technical side, though, some of them could have done with another look from a copy editor's eyes--just some odd extra spaces and such in the formatting. There was also a strange thing with Holgunn's final favor.The letter from Tanval's mother mentioned my character by name, and I thought: how does she know my name? Also, how does she know the content of the letters he wrote me during this favours journey? I guess he could have told her he was telling me all this, but still doesn't account for how she knew my name. I really think they should go in and fix that to not use our character's name.
Anyway, I think the Favours system has promise, and I hope they are able to add to it. Of course it doesn't compare to having full-on quests with voiced dialogue and npc interactions, but accepting that it's a lot more time and money to create those, I think the Favours board is a nice way to get some more bits of story into the game world.0