They really should have switched the Werewolf Refresh with a Class refresh, I feel like reworking Sorc or Warden instead would have been the better choice but oh well, it is what it is.

warden should have been mostly ready before layoffs hit, it was just 1.5 months before planned release, it should have been late stage of testing and final adjustments. pushing in for at least half a year ahead means they very likely did almost nothing esp considering how they ignored all the questions about a warden. I am starting to have hard times finding excuses for ZoS

You can always just join the masses while you wait for your chosen class to be done. Not much else to be said or done at this point.

I do understand it's pretty hard to just switch and Dragonknight is personally one of my least favorite classes to play but thinking of giving it another go at least for PVP. Might also give werewolf another go as well.

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

Estin wrote: »

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

For werewolf in pvp I don’t think masteries is the big problem except sorc is strong, it’s more the resource cost. All their skills cost 1000 or less except the heal, which is 4000 at base. When I played werewolf in the past you had to heavy attack weave between burst. I mean they have a passive built for it that gives them huge stamina regains on heavies. Their skills do not match every other skill cost in the game currently by a long shot. Hopefully they change this.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

They very much implied that changes will be to the non-reworked classes, not nerfs to the reworked classes.

"...we are discussing some interim options for the classes still awaiting their full refresh to improve your player experience in the meantime."

Which is what should happen. No reason to apply blanket nerfs to the reworked classes if the goal is to bring classes up to the same level. Add some simple numbers tweaks to the old classes to make them competitive while they wait for their reworks. Tweak a few targeted things with DK or WW if needed but something like removing passives while in PvP would just be needlessly clunky.

Part of the reason why there are class masteries to begin with was so they could bridge the gap between the reworked and unworked classes. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe something that has been reworked into being strong (In this case DK and WW) should receive extra passives that makes them even more stronger than originally intended. It causes more edge cases that need to be tweaked or balanced around that can ultimately do more harm than good. See the countless nerfs pure classes got to deal with the edge cases subclassing brought.

If class masteries were disabled for both in PvP, then I do believe it would be easier for them to make adjustments to the other class masteries, because all they would have to do is balance them around the base strength of those 2 classes (Yes, I know WW isn't a class. It's easier to list them as such.). It would prevent the need from doing massive blanket nerfs to the core skills for them, and prevent giving god awful power to every other class.

If monday isn't good, my patience will probably reach its limit.

Estin wrote: »

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

That better not be about nerfs because it'd render the entire rework thing moot. Why even refresh if you are going to nerf things back to how they were? At that point, is it really highly complex as said on that director's letter anymore since all that really remain is going to be new animations that kind of look... wonky at times?

Estin wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

They very much implied that changes will be to the non-reworked classes, not nerfs to the reworked classes.

"...we are discussing some interim options for the classes still awaiting their full refresh to improve your player experience in the meantime."

Which is what should happen. No reason to apply blanket nerfs to the reworked classes if the goal is to bring classes up to the same level. Add some simple numbers tweaks to the old classes to make them competitive while they wait for their reworks. Tweak a few targeted things with DK or WW if needed but something like removing passives while in PvP would just be needlessly clunky.

Part of the reason why there are class masteries to begin with was so they could bridge the gap between the reworked and unworked classes. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe something that has been reworked into being strong (In this case DK and WW) should receive extra passives that makes them even more stronger than originally intended. It causes more edge cases that need to be tweaked or balanced around that can ultimately do more harm than good. See the countless nerfs pure classes got to deal with the edge cases subclassing brought.

If class masteries were disabled for both in PvP, then I do believe it would be easier for them to make adjustments to the other class masteries, because all they would have to do is balance them around the base strength of those 2 classes (Yes, I know WW isn't a class. It's easier to list them as such.). It would prevent the need from doing massive blanket nerfs to the core skills for them, and prevent giving god awful power to every other class.

I hear people repeating this all the time.

ZOS has not claimed that as a reason for Class Mastery at all. That's why DK gets it.

See their article: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69859

They very specifically say

Class Mastery is a new way for you to further hone your builds while also being rewarded for your steadfast dedication to your class.

With Class Mastery, you will feel more empowered than ever to hone your focus and specialize in your class’s original suite of abilities.

If you’re a fan of playing “pure” classes, the new Class Mastery system rewards your dedication with powerful new boons.

You need to have reached max level for each of your class’s three skill lines and NOT be using Subclassing to make use of the new abilities.

Nothing in there has to do with Classes being reworked or not. It has everything to do with rewarding playing WITHOUT Subclassing.

You keep hearing people say it because it's exactly what they have listed in the goals when the showcased it. "Stop gap measure between class reworks" and "Will be adjusted as we go through reworks". Yes, it was primarily for bridging subclassing and pure classing, but that was not and is not the only goal of it. Wheeler even said in the february stream that "It's to address a couple of problems where it's the power gap between the people who are pure class and subclassing, but also to try and help address the my class isn't getting hit until x period of time, therefore why would I still play my class?". It cannot be any more clearer than that.

So... it was meant to do both, primarily to balance between pure and subclassing?

Ok, so then why are you campaigning for them to be removed from DK? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Subclassing still exists, right? So DK having masteries is still relevant to address that first point, right?

They did say they'd adjust them over time. And they have - notice how different they are now from what they were during that stream. And they said Warden's were designed to be simple so they could be changed.

But you still have not addressed the fact that they also claimed that Masteries were designed to balance between pure and subclassing, and therefore it is appropriate for classes which have had the rework to still have them.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

They very much implied that changes will be to the non-reworked classes, not nerfs to the reworked classes.

"...we are discussing some interim options for the classes still awaiting their full refresh to improve your player experience in the meantime."

Which is what should happen. No reason to apply blanket nerfs to the reworked classes if the goal is to bring classes up to the same level. Add some simple numbers tweaks to the old classes to make them competitive while they wait for their reworks. Tweak a few targeted things with DK or WW if needed but something like removing passives while in PvP would just be needlessly clunky.

Part of the reason why there are class masteries to begin with was so they could bridge the gap between the reworked and unworked classes. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe something that has been reworked into being strong (In this case DK and WW) should receive extra passives that makes them even more stronger than originally intended. It causes more edge cases that need to be tweaked or balanced around that can ultimately do more harm than good. See the countless nerfs pure classes got to deal with the edge cases subclassing brought.

If class masteries were disabled for both in PvP, then I do believe it would be easier for them to make adjustments to the other class masteries, because all they would have to do is balance them around the base strength of those 2 classes (Yes, I know WW isn't a class. It's easier to list them as such.). It would prevent the need from doing massive blanket nerfs to the core skills for them, and prevent giving god awful power to every other class.

I hear people repeating this all the time.

ZOS has not claimed that as a reason for Class Mastery at all. That's why DK gets it.

See their article: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69859

They very specifically say

Class Mastery is a new way for you to further hone your builds while also being rewarded for your steadfast dedication to your class.

With Class Mastery, you will feel more empowered than ever to hone your focus and specialize in your class’s original suite of abilities.

If you’re a fan of playing “pure” classes, the new Class Mastery system rewards your dedication with powerful new boons.

You need to have reached max level for each of your class’s three skill lines and NOT be using Subclassing to make use of the new abilities.

Nothing in there has to do with Classes being reworked or not. It has everything to do with rewarding playing WITHOUT Subclassing.

You keep hearing people say it because it's exactly what they have listed in the goals when the showcased it. "Stop gap measure between class reworks" and "Will be adjusted as we go through reworks". Yes, it was primarily for bridging subclassing and pure classing, but that was not and is not the only goal of it. Wheeler even said in the february stream that "It's to address a couple of problems where it's the power gap between the people who are pure class and subclassing, but also to try and help address the my class isn't getting hit until x period of time, therefore why would I still play my class?". It cannot be any more clearer than that.

So... it was meant to do both, primarily to balance between pure and subclassing?

Ok, so then why are you campaigning for them to be removed from DK? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Subclassing still exists, right? So DK having masteries is still relevant to address that first point, right?

They did say they'd adjust them over time. And they have - notice how different they are now from what they were during that stream. And they said Warden's were designed to be simple so they could be changed.

But you still have not addressed the fact that they also claimed that Masteries were designed to balance between pure and subclassing, and therefore it is appropriate for classes which have had the rework to still have them.

Because reworked pure DK has been stronger than a subclassed build in PvP since its launch, outside a pulse ganker if you want to get technical. It doesn't need to gain additional power to put it further above the unworked classes. They even say the subclass bridge was mostly for Vet Dung/Trials where it was still behind a subclassed build. But honestly outside the block passive, DKs passives aren't terribly strong in PvP. That doesn't mean I think they should have access to them, and I will say it as someone who has been playing on DK lately. It's better to balance the masteries around the base strength of DK and WW since they themselves are already strong rather than balance them around their inflated strength with the passives, otherwise it's going to break the balance further.

We can go ahead and argue semantics and tiny details forever, but the fact of the matter is yes, ZOS HAS claimed reworked vs unworked classes as a reason for the class mastery, not the other way around like you've claimed. Nothing more has to be addressed about that statement you've claimed was false.

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Throw warden, necro, templar, arcanist, and nightblade right in the dumpster and let all the ego duelers or cmx parsers play DK and Sorc on an empty server indefinitely.

That's already what battlegrounds usually look like recently.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

They very much implied that changes will be to the non-reworked classes, not nerfs to the reworked classes.

"...we are discussing some interim options for the classes still awaiting their full refresh to improve your player experience in the meantime."

Which is what should happen. No reason to apply blanket nerfs to the reworked classes if the goal is to bring classes up to the same level. Add some simple numbers tweaks to the old classes to make them competitive while they wait for their reworks. Tweak a few targeted things with DK or WW if needed but something like removing passives while in PvP would just be needlessly clunky.

Part of the reason why there are class masteries to begin with was so they could bridge the gap between the reworked and unworked classes. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe something that has been reworked into being strong (In this case DK and WW) should receive extra passives that makes them even more stronger than originally intended. It causes more edge cases that need to be tweaked or balanced around that can ultimately do more harm than good. See the countless nerfs pure classes got to deal with the edge cases subclassing brought.

If class masteries were disabled for both in PvP, then I do believe it would be easier for them to make adjustments to the other class masteries, because all they would have to do is balance them around the base strength of those 2 classes (Yes, I know WW isn't a class. It's easier to list them as such.). It would prevent the need from doing massive blanket nerfs to the core skills for them, and prevent giving god awful power to every other class.

I hear people repeating this all the time.

ZOS has not claimed that as a reason for Class Mastery at all. That's why DK gets it.

See their article: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69859

They very specifically say

Class Mastery is a new way for you to further hone your builds while also being rewarded for your steadfast dedication to your class.

With Class Mastery, you will feel more empowered than ever to hone your focus and specialize in your class’s original suite of abilities.

If you’re a fan of playing “pure” classes, the new Class Mastery system rewards your dedication with powerful new boons.

You need to have reached max level for each of your class’s three skill lines and NOT be using Subclassing to make use of the new abilities.

Nothing in there has to do with Classes being reworked or not. It has everything to do with rewarding playing WITHOUT Subclassing.

You keep hearing people say it because it's exactly what they have listed in the goals when the showcased it. "Stop gap measure between class reworks" and "Will be adjusted as we go through reworks". Yes, it was primarily for bridging subclassing and pure classing, but that was not and is not the only goal of it. Wheeler even said in the february stream that "It's to address a couple of problems where it's the power gap between the people who are pure class and subclassing, but also to try and help address the my class isn't getting hit until x period of time, therefore why would I still play my class?". It cannot be any more clearer than that.

So... it was meant to do both, primarily to balance between pure and subclassing?

Ok, so then why are you campaigning for them to be removed from DK? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Subclassing still exists, right? So DK having masteries is still relevant to address that first point, right?

They did say they'd adjust them over time. And they have - notice how different they are now from what they were during that stream. And they said Warden's were designed to be simple so they could be changed.

But you still have not addressed the fact that they also claimed that Masteries were designed to balance between pure and subclassing, and therefore it is appropriate for classes which have had the rework to still have them.

Class masteries are stupid anyways in my opinion. Post rework dk without any masteries was already as strong if not stronger than subclass builds. The same could be done with other classes and we would have a balance between subclass and pure class. But with masteries in the long run, subclassing will be useless. I understand masteries are a good band aid fix for other classes to bridge the gap between pure class and subclass builds until they get their reworks. But I bet they won't remove them after finishing the reworks, and it will then result in subclassing becoming useless. So what is the point? You don't need two solutions at the same time, it is an overkill. Though I am not saying it is impossible to balance that way. It just feels over engineered.
I don't think dk or ww needs class masteries, they should also remove it from other classes when they got reworked down the line.

A friend said he was told that they were having issues with warden which is why it wasn't completed. Idk if that's accurate though or not honestly but I'd rather have them take the time to work on stuff than rush it.

You know what would be cool (and would go a long way to restore the good will)?

A weekly "updates" post. Nothing big, but just Brian Wheeler posting a picture every Friday with a caption so we can at least see that there's progress. Besides, that'd be a great way to drive interest.

I remember that Sakurai did that with the Smash Bros things: we'd get a daily post with something. Sometimes it'd be something big and new like a character reveal, and sometimes it'd just be a pic that just confirms something that we already knew about. But it was always something to look forward to.

I think it'd be great to get a series where we just see "Here's a Warden and his best friend" with a picture of a Warden and the bear. If nothing else, that'd confirm that Warden still has Bear in some fashion. And then some day we could get "This is one of the new Warden skills we're adding: Ice Shard, where you toss an explosive icicle" and a gif of that. Then people could all get hyped about seeing that.

A lot of people are trying to claim that "oh, they don't want to communicate anything until it's 100% finished so they don't look bad if they have to go back on it!" but they aren't realizing that they also look bad if they say nothing. If Warden has 15 skills + 3 ultimates + 12 passives + 5 Masteries + a Finesse, I can't imagine that every one of those things is entirely in flux right up until the second it goes on PTS. At some point, they'd probably say "This skill is done, aside from tweaking numbers," at which point we could see it and know they're making progress.
The thing about the Warden delay that people are questioning is that they said they started Warden soon after DK finished. DK took around 6 months to do from the time they started to when they put it on PTS, but now Warden needs another 6 months minimum... so are they tossing everything and starting from scratch?

And this raises other questions: They claimed that Vengeance is not affecting the Refreshes despite coming from the same team, so are they able to instead run multiple refreshes in parallel? They claimed that the Refreshes were preventing the addition of new things like new Classes or Skill Lines, but are they able to start those despite the Refreshes being delayed? Are the other Classes likely to hit the same problems, or will they not need as much work - like Arcanist was the template for "how cool" the skills need to look, so is Arc just getting more of a reshuffle of skills than a full rebuild?

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Contos wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Kevin mentioned in the reddit thread that there are changes coming that will ease the pressure off the WW and DK meta, so at least that is something to look forward to. They can start by disabling class masteries for both in PvP, but some of their tooltips need to be adjusted too. I also hope more is also done with the class masteries for the other classes. The biggest problem with the old timeline was the reworked classes being miles ahead of the unworked classes, but seeing them address this issue with the new timeline is one of the only positive things that can be taken away from this recent news.

They very much implied that changes will be to the non-reworked classes, not nerfs to the reworked classes.

"...we are discussing some interim options for the classes still awaiting their full refresh to improve your player experience in the meantime."

Which is what should happen. No reason to apply blanket nerfs to the reworked classes if the goal is to bring classes up to the same level. Add some simple numbers tweaks to the old classes to make them competitive while they wait for their reworks. Tweak a few targeted things with DK or WW if needed but something like removing passives while in PvP would just be needlessly clunky.

Part of the reason why there are class masteries to begin with was so they could bridge the gap between the reworked and unworked classes. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe something that has been reworked into being strong (In this case DK and WW) should receive extra passives that makes them even more stronger than originally intended. It causes more edge cases that need to be tweaked or balanced around that can ultimately do more harm than good. See the countless nerfs pure classes got to deal with the edge cases subclassing brought.

If class masteries were disabled for both in PvP, then I do believe it would be easier for them to make adjustments to the other class masteries, because all they would have to do is balance them around the base strength of those 2 classes (Yes, I know WW isn't a class. It's easier to list them as such.). It would prevent the need from doing massive blanket nerfs to the core skills for them, and prevent giving god awful power to every other class.

I hear people repeating this all the time.

ZOS has not claimed that as a reason for Class Mastery at all. That's why DK gets it.

See their article: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69859

They very specifically say

Class Mastery is a new way for you to further hone your builds while also being rewarded for your steadfast dedication to your class.

With Class Mastery, you will feel more empowered than ever to hone your focus and specialize in your class’s original suite of abilities.

If you’re a fan of playing “pure” classes, the new Class Mastery system rewards your dedication with powerful new boons.

You need to have reached max level for each of your class’s three skill lines and NOT be using Subclassing to make use of the new abilities.

Nothing in there has to do with Classes being reworked or not. It has everything to do with rewarding playing WITHOUT Subclassing.

You keep hearing people say it because it's exactly what they have listed in the goals when the showcased it. "Stop gap measure between class reworks" and "Will be adjusted as we go through reworks". Yes, it was primarily for bridging subclassing and pure classing, but that was not and is not the only goal of it. Wheeler even said in the february stream that "It's to address a couple of problems where it's the power gap between the people who are pure class and subclassing, but also to try and help address the my class isn't getting hit until x period of time, therefore why would I still play my class?". It cannot be any more clearer than that.

So... it was meant to do both, primarily to balance between pure and subclassing?

Ok, so then why are you campaigning for them to be removed from DK? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Subclassing still exists, right? So DK having masteries is still relevant to address that first point, right?

They did say they'd adjust them over time. And they have - notice how different they are now from what they were during that stream. And they said Warden's were designed to be simple so they could be changed.

But you still have not addressed the fact that they also claimed that Masteries were designed to balance between pure and subclassing, and therefore it is appropriate for classes which have had the rework to still have them.

I understand masteries are a good band aid fix for other classes to bridge the gap between pure class and subclass builds until they get their reworks.

Except that was never the intended purpose of class masteries. It wasn't to bridge the gap until they got reworked, it was made to be a permanent addition in order to give a downside to subclassing.

Class masteries were introduced because subclassing was introduced without a downside, causing the meta to converge on Tome/X/Assassin builds in PvE and Animal/Assassin/Storm builds in PvP.

Subclassing shouldn't have been introduced without a downside. You need to have some sort of sacrifice. In other games like DnD, if you multiclass you sacrifice your ability to reach higher level class features in any one class.

Subclassing is still great for very niche builds (see specific ballgroup builds in PvP, support setups in PvE, etc). That's how it should be.

Yeah but I for one am not arguing with the perspective that something is correct because it was the intended vision of the devs of this game who frankly have a terrible track record for PvP balance. I would like to argue logically that in order to encourage and incentivize players to play things other that what’s meta whether it be reworked DK, reworked WW or whatever else the gap in power between reworked, hybrid, and pure classes must be narrowed. One of the easiest ways to do that is allows class masteries only for non reworked pure classes.


In any case they had better do something because the current Meta is not very enjoyable. I haven’t played in a couple of months now and I will not be returning until they rework warden or do something to make PvP more fun.