tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Furthermore I think writers might feel constrained by the reality that there is a line when it comes to portraying mental illness even if it is in a fantasy setting - more so if it is to become 'the butt of the joke' in certain scenarios - that one would not like to cross.

You can see an example of one of these lines with the story of Sharp and its portrayal of SA, which in its original form a number of players - including yours truly - felt like it had crossed it and the writers/editors - to their credit - had to amend on the 11th hour.

The obvious answer then is to not write stories where such things are a factor.

I'll admit, I'm one of those people who likes things dark. I feel that ESO has lost a lot of emotional weight, and them constantly dancing around issues just trivializes things. But I can see how some things can hit too close to home. I'd prefer that they talk about these things and give them the emotional weight they deserve, but I realize that's a fine line to walk and excising them is safer.

I never saw Sharp's original story on PTS because I dislike getting spoilers, but I remember the backlash to it. The Live version though ended up making Sondivel into more of an obsessed fan than anything else - I knew the SA was there so I could fill in the gaps myself, but I can see why some people dislike seeing that. I also remember they excised a bunch of references in Galen so random NPCs only talked about how the Maormer would invade and then just stand there menacingly.

I understand that some of these things can hit too close to home, so the best solution is to avoid the topic. However, I don't think either of these cases used SA as a punchline - they both used them in a way to highlight "look how horrible and evil this character is."

Uncle Sheo is similar, save for that last point. Since Shivering Isles, a lot of "madness" has turned into the TikTok-esque self diagnosed problems that favor quirkiness, since actively showing someone suffering from OCD or any related disorder would not be funny - and I agree here, since I have dealt with mental problems and I can not handle joking about mental problems. I'm one of the few people who utterly despises Rhett and Link's "It's my OCD" song because it feels like it turns it into a joke. I hate how all of these "neurospicy!" people on social media like to play up their problems like they're cute and quirky, because I'm one of those people who knows how debilitating they are. It's not something I would wish on anyone.

And yet, it seems acceptable to make mental disorders into a punchline as long as you make them cute and quirky enough. And that's how Sheo has been the whole time since Shivering Isles. I mean, look at half of the NPCs - "ooh, this one needs to just count out random numbers as you're talking to them to show that they are cRaZy!1!1!"

If you're going to write a story around something which hits close to home for people, then handle it respectfully or don't do it. They excised the SA references for Sharp's and Galen's storylines. And then they write a story which is 100% centered on making mental illness cute and funny. That would be like making OG Sharp's story in a way that Sondivel keeps popping up and joking about how much fun they both had every time he SA'd Sharp, and they make a whole joke about it. Understandably, that would not be well received.

Here's a fun way to avoid writing Sheogorath in a way that makes mental illness into a joke: DON'T WRITE A STORY ABOUT A CHARACTER CENTERED AROUND JOKING ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS. After all, aren't there like 16 other Princes, some of whom have never had a day in the limelight, that they could have done instead?

Remathilis wrote: »

I assume people like him for the same reason people liked the pre-TDK* Joker: a evil clown figure who is crazy, his jokes aren't actually funny, but you gotta play along or he'll murder innocent people. He has that classic manic energy and homicidal intent, mixed with outlandish overcomplicated plots. If you place him in the Joker role and yourself as Batman, the energy makes more sense.


* (Once The Dark Knight came out, Joker went from zany criminal to psycho terrorist, and almost all Jokers from then on are a very different tone compared to the Clown Prince of Crime who makes Joker-fish or created heists based on B*ners).

tomofhyrule wrote: »

That I do agree with, and I think that is something that ESO has had failings with in the past. There are some topics that are uncomfortable, but it seems that ESO’s thought process increasingly moves to turning them into jokes so they don’t “feel” as impactful.

Glorious_Platypus wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

That I do agree with, and I think that is something that ESO has had failings with in the past. There are some topics that are uncomfortable, but it seems that ESO’s thought process increasingly moves to turning them into jokes so they don’t “feel” as impactful.

I don't know, I've never seen TES as shying away from unsavoury topics. This is the franchise that become beloved even with depictions of slavery by the Telvanni (or is it because it was depictions of slavery of the Argonians? Hmmmmm...). I think they just leaned into this kind of juvenile edgelord humour to entertain the younger players, who are often happy to skip dialogue anyway. TES is full of this sort of humour, I remember feeling a bit too old for this sort of nonsense when I walked in on the Falkreath Dark Brotherhood members gossiping and laughing about their kills.

Let's be real lol, Skyrim is now "old TES". It's a classic RPG. Its humor and jokes are of a different era. Same as how Morrowind had tough topics like slavery and drug addiction, because it's older than Skyrim of course, so it could get away with more adult topics. By comparison, Skyrim is extremely sanitized.

ESO, an mmo and a game intended for even more mass appeal than Skyrim, even though it may not ever compare to Skyrim's 50 million copies sold... is even more along that asymptotic curve of corporate sanitization.

People sue mcdonalds because the coffee was too hot and now every cup sold has to have a warning label saying it's hot. It's a circus. Videogames are no exception. That's why indie and small studio games are selling better than mainstream ones.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Furthermore I think writers might feel constrained by the reality that there is a line when it comes to portraying mental illness even if it is in a fantasy setting - more so if it is to become 'the butt of the joke' in certain scenarios - that one would not like to cross.

You can see an example of one of these lines with the story of Sharp and its portrayal of SA, which in its original form a number of players - including yours truly - felt like it had crossed it and the writers/editors - to their credit - had to amend on the 11th hour.

The obvious answer then is to not write stories where such things are a factor.

I'll admit, I'm one of those people who likes things dark. I feel that ESO has lost a lot of emotional weight, and them constantly dancing around issues just trivializes things. But I can see how some things can hit too close to home. I'd prefer that they talk about these things and give them the emotional weight they deserve, but I realize that's a fine line to walk and excising them is safer.

I never saw Sharp's original story on PTS because I dislike getting spoilers, but I remember the backlash to it. The Live version though ended up making Sondivel into more of an obsessed fan than anything else - I knew the SA was there so I could fill in the gaps myself, but I can see why some people dislike seeing that. I also remember they excised a bunch of references in Galen so random NPCs only talked about how the Maormer would invade and then just stand there menacingly.

I understand that some of these things can hit too close to home, so the best solution is to avoid the topic. However, I don't think either of these cases used SA as a punchline - they both used them in a way to highlight "look how horrible and evil this character is."

Uncle Sheo is similar, save for that last point. Since Shivering Isles, a lot of "madness" has turned into the TikTok-esque self diagnosed problems that favor quirkiness, since actively showing someone suffering from OCD or any related disorder would not be funny - and I agree here, since I have dealt with mental problems and I can not handle joking about mental problems. I'm one of the few people who utterly despises Rhett and Link's "It's my OCD" song because it feels like it turns it into a joke. I hate how all of these "neurospicy!" people on social media like to play up their problems like they're cute and quirky, because I'm one of those people who knows how debilitating they are. It's not something I would wish on anyone.

And yet, it seems acceptable to make mental disorders into a punchline as long as you make them cute and quirky enough. And that's how Sheo has been the whole time since Shivering Isles. I mean, look at half of the NPCs - "ooh, this one needs to just count out random numbers as you're talking to them to show that they are cRaZy!1!1!"

If you're going to write a story around something which hits close to home for people, then handle it respectfully or don't do it. They excised the SA references for Sharp's and Galen's storylines. And then they write a story which is 100% centered on making mental illness cute and funny. That would be like making OG Sharp's story in a way that Sondivel keeps popping up and joking about how much fun they both had every time he SA'd Sharp, and they make a whole joke about it. Understandably, that would not be well received.

Here's a fun way to avoid writing Sheogorath in a way that makes mental illness into a joke: DON'T WRITE A STORY ABOUT A CHARACTER CENTERED AROUND JOKING ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS. After all, aren't there like 16 other Princes, some of whom have never had a day in the limelight, that they could have done instead?

I think I might not have been very eloquent in my post. The conundrum with Sharp's OG story was not making SA into a joke Sharp was not in on, was something else.

I was using it as an example of how writing can be constrained by the expectations of the readers on how certain subjects are approached.

This doesn't mean - IMO - that these subjects should never be brought up in storytelling because not talking about them definitely does not make them 'go away', is just that 'the line' is subjective, and so is 'how far from the line a writer can stray for narrative/artistic purposes'.

That may lead to the writing feeling 'shallow' or 'trite' as the narrative 'stays on the lane' that has (so far) remained reasonably acceptable/uncontroversial.

That I do agree with, and I think that is something that ESO has had failings with in the past. There are some topics that are uncomfortable, but it seems that ESO’s thought process increasingly moves to turning them into jokes so they don’t “feel” as impactful.

My two examples here are how the game deals with racial stereotypes and domestic abuse.

Imagine a character who is put into ESO specifically as an exaggerated stereotype of their own race, e.g. a goose-stepping 4E Thalmor who wants to cleanse the world of all non-Altmer. Everyone this person interacts with talks about how they are a typical Altmer. You see this person over and over and every time they are playing into this narrow racist stereotype. People would riot.
Now imagine instead that that character was a super stereotypical Nord who is always drunk and has a negative intelligence stat. “OMG Rigurt is so funny!!!1!1!1”

Imagine a nobleman who is self-centered and sees himself an explorer of some renown. He drags his maid along with him to do everything for him, while continually putting her in harm’s way and then scoffing constantly at her inadequacy when the mistakes are his all along. She is utterly devoted to him, however, and almost takes pleasure in his abuse. It’s a disgusting example of a toxic relationship.
Now imagine instead it was a noblewoman abusing her manservant. “OMG Stibbons is so funny!!!1!1!”

Again, I’m not surprised by Sheogorath getting yet another quest, because there are loads of people - who I vehemently disagree with - who think the “quirky crazy cheese” is the height of comedy.

But I see the darker side to it, and I see how, in order to keep it inoffensive, the writing needs to turn it into a joke. And because of that, we have a lot of people who don’t consider those topics as anything more than a joke, and also the writing suffers from being very surface-level because it needs to avoid making people think about how [snip]ed up the situation actually is.

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Furthermore I think writers might feel constrained by the reality that there is a line when it comes to portraying mental illness even if it is in a fantasy setting - more so if it is to become 'the butt of the joke' in certain scenarios - that one would not like to cross.

You can see an example of one of these lines with the story of Sharp and its portrayal of SA, which in its original form a number of players - including yours truly - felt like it had crossed it and the writers/editors - to their credit - had to amend on the 11th hour.

The obvious answer then is to not write stories where such things are a factor.

I'll admit, I'm one of those people who likes things dark. I feel that ESO has lost a lot of emotional weight, and them constantly dancing around issues just trivializes things. But I can see how some things can hit too close to home. I'd prefer that they talk about these things and give them the emotional weight they deserve, but I realize that's a fine line to walk and excising them is safer.

I never saw Sharp's original story on PTS because I dislike getting spoilers, but I remember the backlash to it. The Live version though ended up making Sondivel into more of an obsessed fan than anything else - I knew the SA was there so I could fill in the gaps myself, but I can see why some people dislike seeing that. I also remember they excised a bunch of references in Galen so random NPCs only talked about how the Maormer would invade and then just stand there menacingly.

I understand that some of these things can hit too close to home, so the best solution is to avoid the topic. However, I don't think either of these cases used SA as a punchline - they both used them in a way to highlight "look how horrible and evil this character is."

Uncle Sheo is similar, save for that last point. Since Shivering Isles, a lot of "madness" has turned into the TikTok-esque self diagnosed problems that favor quirkiness, since actively showing someone suffering from OCD or any related disorder would not be funny - and I agree here, since I have dealt with mental problems and I can not handle joking about mental problems. I'm one of the few people who utterly despises Rhett and Link's "It's my OCD" song because it feels like it turns it into a joke. I hate how all of these "neurospicy!" people on social media like to play up their problems like they're cute and quirky, because I'm one of those people who knows how debilitating they are. It's not something I would wish on anyone.

And yet, it seems acceptable to make mental disorders into a punchline as long as you make them cute and quirky enough. And that's how Sheo has been the whole time since Shivering Isles. I mean, look at half of the NPCs - "ooh, this one needs to just count out random numbers as you're talking to them to show that they are cRaZy!1!1!"

If you're going to write a story around something which hits close to home for people, then handle it respectfully or don't do it. They excised the SA references for Sharp's and Galen's storylines. And then they write a story which is 100% centered on making mental illness cute and funny. That would be like making OG Sharp's story in a way that Sondivel keeps popping up and joking about how much fun they both had every time he SA'd Sharp, and they make a whole joke about it. Understandably, that would not be well received.

Here's a fun way to avoid writing Sheogorath in a way that makes mental illness into a joke: DON'T WRITE A STORY ABOUT A CHARACTER CENTERED AROUND JOKING ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS. After all, aren't there like 16 other Princes, some of whom have never had a day in the limelight, that they could have done instead?

I think I might not have been very eloquent in my post. The conundrum with Sharp's OG story was not making SA into a joke Sharp was not in on, was something else.

I was using it as an example of how writing can be constrained by the expectations of the readers on how certain subjects are approached.

This doesn't mean - IMO - that these subjects should never be brought up in storytelling because not talking about them definitely does not make them 'go away', is just that 'the line' is subjective, and so is 'how far from the line a writer can stray for narrative/artistic purposes'.

That may lead to the writing feeling 'shallow' or 'trite' as the narrative 'stays on the lane' that has (so far) remained reasonably acceptable/uncontroversial.

That I do agree with, and I think that is something that ESO has had failings with in the past. There are some topics that are uncomfortable, but it seems that ESO’s thought process increasingly moves to turning them into jokes so they don’t “feel” as impactful.

My two examples here are how the game deals with racial stereotypes and domestic abuse.

Imagine a character who is put into ESO specifically as an exaggerated stereotype of their own race, e.g. a goose-stepping 4E Thalmor who wants to cleanse the world of all non-Altmer. Everyone this person interacts with talks about how they are a typical Altmer. You see this person over and over and every time they are playing into this narrow racist stereotype. People would riot.
Now imagine instead that that character was a super stereotypical Nord who is always drunk and has a negative intelligence stat. “OMG Rigurt is so funny!!!1!1!1”

Imagine a nobleman who is self-centered and sees himself an explorer of some renown. He drags his maid along with him to do everything for him, while continually putting her in harm’s way and then scoffing constantly at her inadequacy when the mistakes are his all along. She is utterly devoted to him, however, and almost takes pleasure in his abuse. It’s a disgusting example of a toxic relationship.
Now imagine instead it was a noblewoman abusing her manservant. “OMG Stibbons is so funny!!!1!1!”

Again, I’m not surprised by Sheogorath getting yet another quest, because there are loads of people - who I vehemently disagree with - who think the “quirky crazy cheese” is the height of comedy.

But I see the darker side to it, and I see how, in order to keep it inoffensive, the writing needs to turn it into a joke. And because of that, we have a lot of people who don’t consider those topics as anything more than a joke, and also the writing suffers from being very surface-level because it needs to avoid making people think about how [snip]ed up the situation actually is.

Im pretty sure stibbons is into it, like bdsm stuff. Am i allowto say that lol? Dont hurt me censors..
. It would be interesting to see actual domestic abuse portrayed, but not sure eso can do it justice.

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Thats the point. It looks like abuse to us from the outside but they both agree to it in private. No way to prove that of course unless the writers sneak a line in somewhere.
Headcanon I guess *shrug*

tomofhyrule wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Furthermore I think writers might feel constrained by the reality that there is a line when it comes to portraying mental illness even if it is in a fantasy setting - more so if it is to become 'the butt of the joke' in certain scenarios - that one would not like to cross.

You can see an example of one of these lines with the story of Sharp and its portrayal of SA, which in its original form a number of players - including yours truly - felt like it had crossed it and the writers/editors - to their credit - had to amend on the 11th hour.

The obvious answer then is to not write stories where such things are a factor.

I'll admit, I'm one of those people who likes things dark. I feel that ESO has lost a lot of emotional weight, and them constantly dancing around issues just trivializes things. But I can see how some things can hit too close to home. I'd prefer that they talk about these things and give them the emotional weight they deserve, but I realize that's a fine line to walk and excising them is safer.

I never saw Sharp's original story on PTS because I dislike getting spoilers, but I remember the backlash to it. The Live version though ended up making Sondivel into more of an obsessed fan than anything else - I knew the SA was there so I could fill in the gaps myself, but I can see why some people dislike seeing that. I also remember they excised a bunch of references in Galen so random NPCs only talked about how the Maormer would invade and then just stand there menacingly.

I understand that some of these things can hit too close to home, so the best solution is to avoid the topic. However, I don't think either of these cases used SA as a punchline - they both used them in a way to highlight "look how horrible and evil this character is."

Uncle Sheo is similar, save for that last point. Since Shivering Isles, a lot of "madness" has turned into the TikTok-esque self diagnosed problems that favor quirkiness, since actively showing someone suffering from OCD or any related disorder would not be funny - and I agree here, since I have dealt with mental problems and I can not handle joking about mental problems. I'm one of the few people who utterly despises Rhett and Link's "It's my OCD" song because it feels like it turns it into a joke. I hate how all of these "neurospicy!" people on social media like to play up their problems like they're cute and quirky, because I'm one of those people who knows how debilitating they are. It's not something I would wish on anyone.

And yet, it seems acceptable to make mental disorders into a punchline as long as you make them cute and quirky enough. And that's how Sheo has been the whole time since Shivering Isles. I mean, look at half of the NPCs - "ooh, this one needs to just count out random numbers as you're talking to them to show that they are cRaZy!1!1!"

If you're going to write a story around something which hits close to home for people, then handle it respectfully or don't do it. They excised the SA references for Sharp's and Galen's storylines. And then they write a story which is 100% centered on making mental illness cute and funny. That would be like making OG Sharp's story in a way that Sondivel keeps popping up and joking about how much fun they both had every time he SA'd Sharp, and they make a whole joke about it. Understandably, that would not be well received.

Here's a fun way to avoid writing Sheogorath in a way that makes mental illness into a joke: DON'T WRITE A STORY ABOUT A CHARACTER CENTERED AROUND JOKING ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS. After all, aren't there like 16 other Princes, some of whom have never had a day in the limelight, that they could have done instead?

I think I might not have been very eloquent in my post. The conundrum with Sharp's OG story was not making SA into a joke Sharp was not in on, was something else.

I was using it as an example of how writing can be constrained by the expectations of the readers on how certain subjects are approached.

This doesn't mean - IMO - that these subjects should never be brought up in storytelling because not talking about them definitely does not make them 'go away', is just that 'the line' is subjective, and so is 'how far from the line a writer can stray for narrative/artistic purposes'.

That may lead to the writing feeling 'shallow' or 'trite' as the narrative 'stays on the lane' that has (so far) remained reasonably acceptable/uncontroversial.

That I do agree with, and I think that is something that ESO has had failings with in the past. There are some topics that are uncomfortable, but it seems that ESO’s thought process increasingly moves to turning them into jokes so they don’t “feel” as impactful.

My two examples here are how the game deals with racial stereotypes and domestic abuse.

Imagine a character who is put into ESO specifically as an exaggerated stereotype of their own race, e.g. a goose-stepping 4E Thalmor who wants to cleanse the world of all non-Altmer. Everyone this person interacts with talks about how they are a typical Altmer. You see this person over and over and every time they are playing into this narrow racist stereotype. People would riot.
Now imagine instead that that character was a super stereotypical Nord who is always drunk and has a negative intelligence stat. “OMG Rigurt is so funny!!!1!1!1”

Imagine a nobleman who is self-centered and sees himself an explorer of some renown. He drags his maid along with him to do everything for him, while continually putting her in harm’s way and then scoffing constantly at her inadequacy when the mistakes are his all along. She is utterly devoted to him, however, and almost takes pleasure in his abuse. It’s a disgusting example of a toxic relationship.
Now imagine instead it was a noblewoman abusing her manservant. “OMG Stibbons is so funny!!!1!1!”

Again, I’m not surprised by Sheogorath getting yet another quest, because there are loads of people - who I vehemently disagree with - who think the “quirky crazy cheese” is the height of comedy.

But I see the darker side to it, and I see how, in order to keep it inoffensive, the writing needs to turn it into a joke. And because of that, we have a lot of people who don’t consider those topics as anything more than a joke, and also the writing suffers from being very surface-level because it needs to avoid making people think about how [snip]ed up the situation actually is.

Im pretty sure stibbons is into it, like bdsm stuff. Am i allowto say that lol? Dont hurt me censors..
. It would be interesting to see actual domestic abuse portrayed, but not sure eso can do it justice.

I can't imagine "but Your Honor, she was totally into it!" being an acceptable defense for domestic abuse.

And if you think that is acceptable, that is a major problem.

Abuse is not acceptable, no matter how "into it" the victim is. Abuse is not acceptable, no matter what gender both the abuser and victim are.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

The only thing I like about Sheogorath in ESO is the potential of having butterfly-themed cosmetics.
ZOS has the technology to make skill styles themed around it, and I have a lot of patience...


...unless it ends up a challenger reward for veteran dungeon like Grand Healing, Seawater is.

There are already some similar themes in game. Honorfeather springs to mind, though it is bird themed. They are locked behind crates though, with some available for gems/seals when the crates are active.