[Request/Discussion] ZOS, with the upcoming Sorcerer refresh

Turtle_Bot · July 29

The purposes of this thread:
1. To inform ZOS about what the pain points of the current (pre-refresh) Sorcerer class kit are and what needs addressing in the refresh.
2. To encourage ZOS to actively communicate early (i.e. during the early design phase) to get it right so we don't just have more complaints later down the road because uninformed/drastic changes need to be made to adjust the class because the refresh got it wrong.

@ZOS_Kevin first off (addressing point 2 above), we need solid and early communication from the refresh team during the design phase about what the intended goals of the Sorcerer rework are, that way we can help to steer any potential changes in the right direction while it's being designed and before it's too late to do anything.

Onto the pain points of Sorcerer:

Too much redundant utility within Sorcs active skills.
3 examples:
1. Sorcerer should not need 5 active skills (endless fury, crystal shards, energy overload, dark exchange and regenerative ward) + 5 passives (capacitor, unholy knowledge, persistence, rebate and power stone) just for sustain. This just eludes to a fundamental design flaw where either the skills are too expensive, just to account for the extra sustain, or the sustain becomes too much that skills designed around not being spammed are able to be spammed (such as Daedric Mines in the past). This also reduces the diversity of effects and interactions able to be given to the class since the power budget is being used up for this sustain that is either completely unnecessary or too necessary.
2. Sorcerer should not need to have 6 crowd control abilities (Streak, Rune prison, Spines, Scamp, Atro and Mines) in it's kit. This is just completely unnecessary and is another example of over-redundancy that is stifling Sorcerers class kit.
3. Sorcerer should not need 4 dedicated niche case burst heal abilities (exchange, matriarch, shroud and clannfear) when it's original design was to have strong healing over time and use shields to absorb, pets to block and mobility to avoid incoming damage strategically to allow that healing over time to work with maybe a cast time "burst" heal like exchange for an additional heal if it manages to enable that window of opportunity to use it. This would definitely require a PvE/PvP split so that tank sorcs and healer sorcs in PvE can still do their job since pets don't block a taunted boss's damage and many boss hits cannot be avoided by "stepping out of the AoE" and most big hits on vet/HM deal more damage than health bar (without block mitigation) + shield combined specifically to prevent cheesing content with shield builds.
There's too much conflict within the design of the active skills of the class.
The abilities and skill lines don't synergize properly with each other and this (imo) is likely the result of trying to constantly force each playstyle (pet/mag/stam/shock/other) independently instead of trying to synergize them all cohesively to work together.

3 examples:
1. Take the healing skills within Sorcerers kit, by design of the damage shields, Sorcerer should have consistent passive healing over time and use the class shields as temporary damage absorbers alongside superior mobility of speed and streak to allow that passive healing over time to do it's job instead of trying to spam block and burst heals to get out of a sticky situation like a DK, warden, plar or Necro does, but the only semi-passive healing within the class kit is from Surge that requires dealing critical damage (crit surge morph) with no targeted damage over time ability in the class kit, or critically healing (power surge morph) with no healing over time ability in the class kit and blood magic (a passive that, unless taking the Conservation of Energy mastery, requires activating a Dark magic ability to proc, all of which are extremely niche at best), every other heal in Sorcerers kit is an expensive single cast, single heal, burst heals (matriarch, shroud, exchange, clannfear) that doesn't synergize with the shielding/avoiding damage + healing over time playstyle of the rest of Sorcs defensive kit.
2. Surge requires dealing critical damage (crit surge morph) or critically healing (power surge morph), yet the class has no targeted damage over time or heal over time ability in the class kit that would enable this ability to function as designed. Further, the proposed changes to the class unique minor buffs is removing crit chance from Sorcerer, further reducing the synergy between surge and the rest of the class kit.
3. Sorcs damage skills, where every ability deals its damage on a delay (or requires a build up) and most abilities are just a "this ability that is this other ability Sorc already has, but now specifically for this other Sorc playstyle" and there's nothing in the class kit to cast in the meantime while building up, or while the delay counts down to maintain any real pressure, hence why all Sorcs take a non-class ability (or heavy attack) as their main spammable and non-class damage over time abilities to round out this missing fundamental basic aspect of a class kit. This leads into the next point.
Too much focus on "delayed" damage, "timed" damage, or "back-loaded" damage with very little of anything else.
- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
- Frags is basically just Spec bow (build up to a big hit), but on an rng proc instead of guaranteed every 5 light attack build up, making it a very frustrating skill to use/face because it's either OP because it's spammed (good rng) or completely useless because it never procs (bad rng), which is never fun/engaging to use or face.
- Curse is the standard delayed burst that abilities are timed around being combined with for a burst of damage, and imo, should be Sorcerers delayed (or "timed") burst ability like shulks for warden, PotL for plar, blast bones for Necro, etc. and should reflect being such.
- Armaments is essentially a "stamina frags" in practice, but with a guaranteed build up instead of rng proc.
- Fury is a delayed proc of damage that only triggers if the target falls below 20% health (at which point a regular ability will finish the target off anyway) and the nerf of it's duration from 4 seconds down to 2 deleted Fury's ability to be woven into a combo that takes 4-5 seconds to line up that also requires other skills to be cast specifically on that 2 second timing window that fury now has to be cast at post nerf.
- Spines is AoE damage but only after the immobilize ends (up to 4 seconds delay).
- Rune cage is delayed damage but only if the stun lasts the full duration.

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Passives (and class masteries) synergizing better with non-class abilities than with Sorcerer abilities despite needing to be soo overwhelmingly strong to try and carry the underwhelming class active abilities when not using non-sorc abilities.
Sorcs passives (and now masteries) have always been strong, but they synergize too well with non-Sorcerer abilities which makes for a frustrating time trying to balance the class because in a vacuum, using only Sorcerer class abilities and not generic, WW, or sub-classed abilities, the passives/masteries need to be so overwhelmingly strong to make up for this lack of synergy/functionality of the in-class active abilities, but because the passives/masteries happen to be completely generic, for the most part, they become too strong/enable too much when used alongside non-class or sub-classed abilities that were never designed around having such strong and synergistic passives to buff them.

It's frustrating because it creates an environment where a lot of complaints get misdirected at Sorcerer as a class, when in reality it's the fact that passives/masteries that were designed strong to carry bad/conflicting/clunky class active abilities but are being paired with independently strong non-class active abilities creating a much stronger than designed interaction than what those passives/masteries were designed around.

It's almost a certainty that if the Sorcerer class masteries and passives were changed tomorrow to only work with Sorcerer class active abilities with no other changes to Sorcerer abilities, the class would almost vanish overnight, because 90% of Sorcs class active skills just aren't good enough nor synergistic enough with the passives/masteries to flow like a fully functional class should, despite how strong the passives/masteries are.

Some perfect examples of this issue are:
- Blood for Blood (vampire spammable ability that guarantees hemorrhage proc for double tick of damage on cast for reverb synergy and costs health which is completely offset by CoE proccing blood magic heal on cast)
- Wield soul (scribing skill with a damage script and class flourish for that same double tick of damage as B4B that synergizes with reverb)
- Twin slashes (DW DoT + spammable + status effect proc in 1 ability that does a triple tick of damage + DoT for reverb)
- Refreshed Werewolf (cheap skills and many instances of damage (especially rip and tear that is 3 hits including sundered and it's own heal on cast) that synergizes with both CoE and reverb)
All of these synergize perfectly with multiple of Sorcerers class masteries, and get significantly more value out of Sorcerers passives being completely generic than Sorcerers own abilities gain from these same passives/masteries, despite the fact that none of these are abilities are from Sorcerers class kit and all of which are available to every single class in the game, just that those other classes passives/masteries are much less generic.
Cast times
In the past, cast times were a good way to balance how strong Sorcerers tooltips were, making them clunky to use while being strong meant that if used properly, was a good way to balance risk and reward for the class, but as power creep has gone on over the years, other classes have either caught up to or surpassed the raw tooltip values (mostly thanks to the "standardization" efforts of U35) despite not having cast times on their abilities (many of which also do much more with secondary effects, buffs, debuffs and synergies than Sorcs abilities).

There's also the issue of hidden cast times of many of Sorcerers "instant" abilities where the animation must play in full or the ability gets cancelled, despite the ability being labeled "instant" on it's tooltip (lightning splash, mages fury and streak are big ones for this issue, especially during poor performance where they often fail to cast if not left to complete the animation in it's entirety).

Something else I have noticed on abilities with a cast time, is that they have much worse target tracking than abilities that are channeled. They either miss the target entirely despite no "dodge roll" by the target, or randomly cancel the cast. They also have a very buggy interaction with ANY line of sight (even incomplete line of sight such as a half height log/rock/crate/etc.) and this issue gets exacerbated with high ping/desync because the server is getting conflicting messages from different clients about what happened, often leading to a lot of shenanigans such as hitting through walls, or cancelling the cast even though the target is out in the open.
One dimensional nature of Sorcerers abilities and the bar space issues this causes.
This was fine 10 years ago when Sorcerer had a third skill bar from Overload, that via additional APM game-play/skill allowed for slotting abilities to round out a build like other classes can already do with just 2 bars due to all the additional effects their abilities have that Sorcerers class abilities don't. However despite abilities being "standardized" in U35, other classes abilities gained significant power because their secondary effects were never removed, as such it always feels terrible trying to innovate new/different/off-meta builds with Sorcerer using any of the lesser used class skills compared to trying it on other classes because the Sorcerer abilities just don't do anything beyond their single basic function which makes trying to slot/use them just not worth attempting because it requires an additional 1-2 bar slots to make them on par with (due to buffs/debuffs/secondary effects) what other classes can try to attempt with their lesser used abilities.
Pets are very much "all or nothing" in their design with very little in-between.
Needing to be slotted on both bars is both a blessing and a curse for the pets. It enables a very simple and easy "pick up and play" playstyle that is very popular among casual players, but it leaves zero room for growing or experimenting as a player or as a class with these abilities, especially since they also require 2 GCD uninterrupted cast time to summon them and they don't interact with regular gear-sets or abilities that are supposed to synergize off other abilities (such as either morph of surge heal).
There's no way to just run them on 1 bar since they despawn anytime the bar is swapped and take a minimum 4GCD to resummon both of them after swapping back to the bar they are slotted on. This ties in with the above issue of bar space since they take up both bars, but then they don't come with any buffs, debuffs, and minimal secondary effects to account for this clogging up of valuable bar space.
The following pain point is technically not Sorcerer specific, but is related to Sorcerer via it's theme:
Lack of love for Lightning theme/Shock damage in ESO.
Lightning is supposed to be Sorcerers "elemental theme" like Fire is for DK, yet the pets don't interact with anything despite dealing shock damage and the majority of Sorcerers "good" abilities don't deal shock damage and are the generic magic damage type which doesn't synergize with the class passives. There's also the complete lack of percent modifiers and Concussed/secondary effect interactions in the game.
There's no shock damage "payoff" skill (delayed burst like curse, flame lash, etc.), especially with how clunky (and recently also nerfed) Fury has become.
There's no spammable skill outside of specifically wield soul, which severely restricts options when trying to create a build centered around this theme.
There's only 1 set for this damage type that is good (i.e. not bad/outdated/powercrept), and only became good this patch due to specifically it's interaction with 1 of Sorcs class masteries, which just leaves off-theme sets to try and fill out a build.
Visually the majority of this theme just feels like reskinned fireballs rather than true lightning bouncing around the battlefield (the Storm Projection vision/verse from IA feels much more "lightning theme" than the majority of Shock damage abilities in the game and (imo) should be the standard by which the visuals/sfx for all lightning themed skills should follow).

Ways to (ideally) look to adjust Sorc in the upcoming refresh.

Remove the redundancy within the class skills. Sorc doesn't need 10+ effects dedicated specifically to self sustain/offset high costs, or 6 crowd control abilities, or 4 dedicated niche burst heals that don't synergize with how damage shields play that only end up restricting potential abilities/synergies that could be used for more diversity and improved functionality within the class skills.
Ideally (imo) the abilities kept would be:
- For Crowd Control: Streak (class defining ability and hard stun), spines ("soft" crowd control, i.e. immobilization) and Atro (Ultimate with large AoE crowd control on cast)
- For healing: Matriarch (single bar would be a standard honor the dead level single target burst heal, double bar would be current Matriarch permanent pet but maybe it heals over time instead of dealing damage over time and would interact with surge and sets)
- For delayed/timed/burst damage: Curse (just type change and modernized debuff access), Frags (mag version of "spec bow") and Armaments (stam version of frags, swapped with weapon morph) and weapon (moved to other morph of aegis so one is a DPS morph, other is a tank/support morph)
- For sustain: Dark Exchange (class defined sustain skill and focus on sustain instead of trying to also be a burst heal) with some updating to reflect "refreshed class" standards, 1 morph of overload and 1 or 2 passives.
Everything else (fury, shroud, clannfear, scamp, mines, rune prison and many passives) that are currently doubling up on these aspects can (and should) be reworked entirely, to fill missing key aspects (spammable, targeted DoT, HoT, cleave, etc.), facilitate new playstyles or better synergize/enhance existing playstyles to make them want to use/experiment with more of the class kit than just constantly go looking outside the class kit for the majority of their build while cherry picking the very few synergistic or strong sorc abilities for their specific build.
Reduce the conflict within the class lines. The class doesn't have to be Pet OR Stam OR Mag OR Lightning OR other, they can all work together, it just needs to be designed to do so from the ground up, but in a way that is natural and allows synergy without forcing interactions or forcing one specific version of the class over the others.
Limit class passives/masteries to mostly interact with Sorcerer abilities. At least to shock/physical damage type abilities, rather than being generic for everything, especially since shock/physical damage is sorcerers primary damage types/themes (representing lightning and wind elements of storms respectively).
Rethink cast times. These need a complete overhaul/rethink and going over the animations of abilities so that instant abilities are actually instant cast and reliable, not "animation dependent" to cast. Target tracking of cast time abilities also needs looking at/fixing.
Secondary effects, buffs/debuffs. With power creep over the years, it's time to look at secondary effects/synergies between Sorcs abilities so we don't need to keep overbuffing tooltips (that causes scaling issues like hardened ward in U41) just to keep up with power creep. This would also allow for experimentation with Sorcs lesser used abilities for a wider variety of builds/variants instead of just more of the current same 2 mag stacking or proc stacking or pet only builds.
Pets (all pets, not just Sorc pets) definitely need a middle ground. Something like a regular non-pet ability if the pet is slotted on 1 bar (like the vengeance "pets", that are more like DoTs/heals, but not quite so simple as these), but pets would remain (or become in the case of non-sorc pets) full permanent pets with secondary abilities (and updated additional bonuses) if slotted on both bars (something that was suggested by @ketsparrowhawk on another thread regarding Necro reworks/pets).
Replace Magic damage type with shock/physical damage types across the class and update the visuals to reflect these changes. Also update/add better/more synergistic passives for shock damage, beyond just the singular +5% increase from energized passive, include interactions with the concussed status effect and bonuses/effects for leaning heavily into the damage types like DK has for flame damage.

I'll leave any further discussion of shock damage specifically for another thread, but I do want to reiterate that the Storm Projection vision from Infinite Archive is something that I would hope that the majority of Lightning themed abilities post refresh would try to align with for their visuals and SFX, being impactful but not overbearing, feeling fast, responsive and snappy to use, being more like lightning rather than just feeling like reskinned fireballs/waves of flame/etc.

To summarize, Sorcerer does NOT need total tooltip value increases, what it needs across all of it's different playstyles is:

improved functionality
less clunkiness
improved synergy
more/better secondary effects/buffs/debuffs
less redundancy and
better cohesion and streamlining of it's active abilities

A personal request would also to be improved VFX/SFX to be more like the IA Storm Projection vision, snappy, quick, responsive, feeling like lightning rather than just reskinned flame effects.

ZhuJiuyin · July 30

This is an excellent as always post, highlighting almost all of Sorc's pain points.

However, I believe Sorc doesn't need so many delayed/timed/burst damage skills. Even just keeping Curse, Frags, Armaments, and Weapons is excessive. With 15 skills across three skill lines, a quarter of them are delayed/timed/burst damage, which is still too redundant.
I think Sorc only needs to keep Frags and Weapons. Curse is easily blocked or cleansed in PvP, and in PvE, if the target dies prematurely, it's a pure waste of DPS (In comparison, DoT skills still deal some damage before the target dies). Weapons require a pre-action animation to grant extra damage to two light attacks. In contrast, Arc's Inspired lasts 30 seconds and has more lenient conditions (any class skill will do), even providing a permanent Major buff.
So I think Curse and weapons should also completely reworked and shouldn't be retained.

Hopefully, ZOS can get out of the layoff predicament as soon as possible and regain its former glory.

Turtle_Bot · July 30

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

This is an excellent as always post, highlighting almost all of Sorc's pain points.

However, I believe Sorc doesn't need so many delayed/timed/burst damage skills. Even just keeping Curse, Frags, Armaments, and Weapons is excessive. With 15 skills across three skill lines, a quarter of them are delayed/timed/burst damage, which is still too redundant.
I think Sorc only needs to keep Frags and Weapons. Curse is easily blocked or cleansed in PvP, and in PvE, if the target dies prematurely, it's a pure waste of DPS (In comparison, DoT skills still deal some damage before the target dies). Weapons require a pre-action animation to grant extra damage to two light attacks. In contrast, Arc's Inspired lasts 30 seconds and has more lenient conditions (any class skill will do), even providing a permanent Major buff.
So I think Curse and weapons should also completely reworked and shouldn't be retained.

Hopefully, ZOS can get out of the layoff predicament as soon as possible and regain its former glory.

Personally, I do agree that the delayed burst I kept is still too much, but I wanted to keep at least 1 option for the many different playstyles since there are a lot of players that prefer weapon over frags, curse over armaments, etc. but I wanted to try and condense those delayed burst options within Sorcs kit down to 2-3 abilities that are then differentiated via morphs instead of having the options being spread out across 6+ abilities that could have had their base forms redone to something else entirely to encourage Sorcs to look at/try out more of their class kit beyond just the same few abilities.

That's why I suggested swapping armaments with weapon, since weapon is a "weapon enhancement spell" that buffs the next hit on a target with your equipped weapon and aegis is an "armor enhancement spell" that buffs your defenses with magic armor, so those 2 would fit together as alternate morphs of the same ability being used for different roles, while armaments is basically just frags but with guaranteed build up and multiple hits instead of rng to proc and 1 big hit. This way the "design" of bound armor is battle mage enhancements for either offense or defense depending on the morph chosen and the "design" of crystal shards is "build up burst" with the morphs differentiating the way the burst is built up to (rng with frags, guaranteed but specific timing with armaments).

I could see curse being made into a DoT, but the issue with that change is then Sorc is basically just "purple/lightning NB" with frags/armaments being spec bow 2.0 and curse being debilitate 2.0, just without an actual in-class spammable to match surprise attack/concealed weapon, which doesn't really help with class identity that is the goal of these refreshes. That's why I kept Curse as it was. Although I could see the Daedric Prey morph getting some adjustments since that morph being designed for pets doesn't feel right for a more casual/easier playstyle with it's constant timing management requirement.

Pinktraining · July 30

Cast times have always been a hallmark of Sorc; it's precisely because of cast times that Sorc can use powerful sets like Soulshine, so there's absolutely no need to remove them.

Furthermore,I can't understand why you'd want to keep Curse, because from any player, from any class's perspective, it's a failed skill.
Curse is at best a weaker version of Power of the Light. The entire concept of Curse needs a redesign, and since it's going to be redesigned anyway, there's no reason to keep the delayed damage feature.As for Daedric Prey... it's absolutely the dumbest design I've ever played in any game. A very short-duration debuff that requires players to maintain for as long as possible to ensure sufficient damage, and it's also forced to be linked to a pet, with poor pet's AI further limiting the skill's potential.

In my opinion, Curse and the two morphs should definitely be on the rework list.

Turtle_Bot · July 30

Pinktraining wrote: »

Cast times have always been a hallmark of Sorc; it's precisely because of cast times that Sorc can use powerful sets like Soulshine, so there's absolutely no need to remove them.

Furthermore,I can't understand why you'd want to keep Curse, because from any player, from any class's perspective, it's a failed skill.
Curse is at best a weaker version of Power of the Light. The entire concept of Curse needs a redesign, and since it's going to be redesigned anyway, there's no reason to keep the delayed damage feature.As for Daedric Prey... it's absolutely the dumbest design I've ever played in any game. A very short-duration debuff that requires players to maintain for as long as possible to ensure sufficient damage, and it's also forced to be linked to a pet, with poor pet's AI further limiting the skill's potential.

In my opinion, Curse and the two morphs should definitely be on the rework list.

Cast times are not the hallmark of Sorc, that would be Lightning, streak, pets, "physical" (wind such as hurricane or crystals from dark magic skills) and damage shields.

Further, Soulshine is a very outdated set that hasn't been good for well over 7 years now (if it ever was good) and definitely not a "powerful set". A few examples of other sets that also give unique weapon/spell damage bonuses like Soulshine, but are much better:

Clever Alchemist: Gives nearly double the amount of weapon/spell damage that Soulshine gives and is craftable so can be any armor weight.

Rallying Cry: Gives almost the same weapon/spell damage, but also grants a lot of critical resistance (big defense bonus) with a longer duration than Soulshine and comes in Light weight which grants pen and crit chance bonuses per piece.

Moon Hunter: Grants 50% more weapon/spell damage than soulshine and is craftable so can be any armor weight.

New Moon Acolyte: Gives 10% more weapon/spell damage than Soulshine and is permanent, not requiring doing anything to gain that damage.

Sentry: less base weapon/spell damage but it's permanent with no proc requirements and gives a massive stealth detection bonus for hunting down Nightblades/invisible enemies in PvP. Also comes in Medium Armor weight that gives percent modifiers per piece of medium armor worn which nullifies the lower base weapon/spell damage of this set.

Burning Spell Weave: Grants 30% more weapon/spell damage and just requires dealing any flame damage with an ability, (scribing skill, destruction staff skill, any DK skill) and it inflicts the burning status effect which is a free damage over time proc for even more damage.

Yandir's Might: 20% up to 84% more weapon/spell damage than Soulshine and is just as easy to proc since Sorcerer wants to deal lots of crits already to proc Surge heal as much as possible.

For context, here is Soulshine:

I'm actually curious to know where you're getting your information about builds, abilities and sets, (such as "Soulshine is a powerful set"). Because if someone is telling you that information, they are seriously misleading you.

Curse is also not a bad skill, it just struggles post sub-classing because everyone is running some form of cleanse (templar ritual, warden netch, Mara's balm set, cleansing revival champion point, etc.) and some form of the named Evasion buff (Area damage reduction) that just hard counters Curse. It also doesn't have/do anything beyond it's damage instances, which is where if ZOS were to look at the skill, all it would need would be small adjustments such as a debuff and/or secondary effect to it so it isn't completely hard countered by cleanses or the evasion buff.

I do agree though that the Daedric Prey morph is not well designed, especially for the intended playstyle it was designed for, and I mentioned as much already.

DahliaNightshade · July 30

I don't like pets and I would like ZOS to make it easier to make a good balanced No-Pets build.

I have what I consider a good build, it works, but during the last decade I've had to go through a lot of trials and errors to come up with builds that could somehow get close to the damage of a Pet build.

Pets shouldn't be mandatory to be competitive.

And yes, as usual Turtle_Bot's post on this subject is very well thought out.

Wuuffyy · July 30

Pinktraining wrote: »

Cast times have always been a hallmark of Sorc; it's precisely because of cast times that Sorc can use powerful sets like Soulshine, so there's absolutely no need to remove them.

Furthermore,I can't understand why you'd want to keep Curse, because from any player, from any class's perspective, it's a failed skill.
Curse is at best a weaker version of Power of the Light. The entire concept of Curse needs a redesign, and since it's going to be redesigned anyway, there's no reason to keep the delayed damage feature.As for Daedric Prey... it's absolutely the dumbest design I've ever played in any game. A very short-duration debuff that requires players to maintain for as long as possible to ensure sufficient damage, and it's also forced to be linked to a pet, with poor pet's AI further limiting the skill's potential.

In my opinion, Curse and the two morphs should definitely be on the rework list.

Who in their right mind is using soul shine in PvP right now? Also, curse would work fine if it was consistent- it not being purgeable and provides it a minor buff or something would go a long way to remedy that right now.

WuffyCerulei · July 30

I agree with ya 100%. The sorcerer builds, PVE and PVP, are just too bland too. Barely anything’s changed in years for either. Like, I’m legit doing Werewolf DPS in PVE on my sorc more because it’s different and fun. Not the same old same old.

NxJoeyD · August 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

To summarize, Sorcerer does NOT need total tooltip value increases, what it needs across all of it's different playstyles is:
improved functionality

less clunkiness

improved synergy

more/better secondary effects/buffs/debuffs

less redundancy and

better cohesion and streamlining of it's active abilities

A personal request would also to be improved VFX/SFX to be more like the IA Storm Projection vision, snappy, quick, responsive, feeling like lightning rather than just reskinned flame effects.

100% all of this.

I agree that it's really not tool tip scaling, per se, that's the bigger issues with Sorcs, it's the underlying mechanics of their skills ... long cast times, clunky animations, or "step-in" requirements that are unrealistic in both PvE & PvP.

I recognizes that in the past Sorcs were a pressure-heavy class, but, I think we all have to admit that pressure isn't as effective as it once was.

Pressure requires time .. that means either someone else is dealing out direct damage that you're waiting on your skills to deliver .. or ... that your opponent is using that time to either heal or otherwise mitigate your output.

I'd also like to see less reliance on synergies. Not that Sorc has a ton but when we think about synergies, in the grand scheme of combat, there are already too many. Even skills that enable self-synergy can find the needed synergy buried underneath other synergies. For example, a Sorc casting Lightning Flood intending to pop the burst synergy will often find that their synergy is behind one or two other synergies either from their healer or tank which just makes output more of a cumbersome delay. Leave synergies exclusive to secondary effects like additional healing / sustain for buff / debuff activation; not for damage output.

Sorcs can absolutely sacrifice the amount of redundancy and utility that they have for better mechanically functioning output skills; this is essential.

My thought for pets is that I would, personally, like to see them to to a World "conjuring" line. ... This isn't hate for pets, it's more because of the degree of power creep the game has seen. It's very hard to deliver the sort of functionality and proper support for pets when those pets are being crammed into one skill line that has to share it's passives and other slots with non-pet focused builds. .. Basically, you run out of room to properly reinforce pets in meaningful ways.

Think about it, right now pets get two slots and no real direct passives, but, in a Conjuring line there could be 5 dedicated pet skills and 6 direct passives. .. Further, being a World skill, a Sorc could still slot them without having to subclass and still be able to utilize Mastery Passives.

I know the lore factor with Sorcs sees pets as a legacy part of the class, I'm not ignorant to that .. it's more a question of is the lore aspect worth the reduced potential for both pets & Sorcs by keeping them within the class? Times have changed, the game has changed, significantly.

One thing that I've always felt is that the underlying mechanics of pets is clumsy. The "AI" (if that's what we want to call it) that drives pets is lackluster and doesn't keep up with the pace of combat and almost forces one to slot Daedric Prey. I, personally, don't think it's realistic to ask the Devs to completely re-write the entirety of the functionality that automates pets. I don't see that happening and I don't see that being feasible.

If one had a dog at home and the dog outgrew the doggie bed they use to nap on, would one just ignore it and keep them on the undersized bed for nostalgia or would one get a newer bed that would be more comfortable for them? .. I feel like that's where we are with Sorc pets right now.

Luneca · August 6

Never forget what happened when Skinnycheeks (?) wasted all that time thinking of a system to better balance the game and it was sidelined. You should give input, but don't work yourself too hard. It will likely be completely ignored.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

NxJoeyD · August 6

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect. This strategy only works at range. A Sorc engaging against an enemy that's closed distance isn't going to have the LA travel time to proc Crystal Weapon and have it affect the light attack before that attack strikes the target. Given how subclassing gave everyone easy access to mobility buffs and gap closers this is a reality in PvP now.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

No sir, you are incorrect. You do a light attack THEN cast crystal weapon (aka LA weave), and CW will apply to that **PRECEEDING** light attack that you did just before casting CW. It's very consistent and reliable. I'll try to remember to upload a demonstration video when I get home from work tonight. True it is unique in that it relies on LA weaving, but surely you're LA weaving anyway with any other ranged spammable? Doesn't really strike me as a drawback. I suppose you have your own definition of what constitutes a "spammable", but CW certainly fits mine.

NxJoeyD · August 6

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

No sir, you are incorrect. You do a light attack THEN cast crystal weapon (aka LA weave), and CW will apply to that **PRECEEDING** light attack that you did just before casting CW. It's very consistent and reliable. I'll try to remember to upload a demonstration video when I get home from work tonight.. or try it yourself! True it is unique in that it relies on LA weaving, but surely you're LA weaving anyway with any other ranged spammable? Doesn't really strike me as a drawback.

No, I'm aware of what you said.

A light attack weave MUST have travel time for your strategy to work. This means that it's ONLY effective at range, not at proximity. Given that a significant share of combat in PvP occurs at short range this presents a problem.

Weaving is very much a thing in both PvP and PvE but it's much more consistent in PvE because of the coordination of groups & roles and the nature of the enemies that one faces. In PvP attacks often occur at strategic intervals between blocking, dodging, or other rotation changes. While one can often consistently weave light attacks in PvE that's not a "rule" in PvP, the combat approaches are wholly different. Yes, players can & do weave light attacks in PvP but not as consistently as PvE.

So no, not every spammable is being woven with light attacks. It's one thing that a player should have the choice or availability to weave light attacks along with their class spammable skill, but it's a whole different thing to say that the skill is ONLY "spammable" if it's woven with light attacks. This is why one of the requirements for a genuinely spammable skill is that the skill apply directly to the target, not carry a two-step function like Crystal Weapon; it cannot have a dependency.

A NB can cast Surprise Attack and receive the value of the skills damage directly & immediately on their target, even if they do NOTHING else. A Sorc cannot cast Crystal Weapon and get the same result, there HAS to be an additional light attack. The two mechanics are not the same.

Wuuffyy · August 6

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect. This strategy only works at range. A Sorc engaging against an enemy that's closed distance isn't going to have the LA travel time to proc Crystal Weapon and have it affect the light attack before that attack strikes the target. Given how subclassing gave everyone easy access to mobility buffs and gap closers this is a reality in PvP now.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

Just because this has a different method of activation doesn't mean that it isn't a spammable. What.

Just because you decide to use Crystal weapon in combination with something like, idk, rending slashes...

...doesn't mean that Crystal weapon doesn't hit like a spammable with comparable auxiliary effects like Surprise Attack, for exampple.

NxJoeyD · August 6

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect. This strategy only works at range. A Sorc engaging against an enemy that's closed distance isn't going to have the LA travel time to proc Crystal Weapon and have it affect the light attack before that attack strikes the target. Given how subclassing gave everyone easy access to mobility buffs and gap closers this is a reality in PvP now.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

Just because this has a different method of activation doesn't mean that it isn't a spammable. What.

Just because you decide to use Crystal weapon in combination with something like, idk, rending slashes...

...doesn't mean that Crystal weapon doesn't hit like a spammable with comparable auxiliary effects like Surprise Attack, for exampple.

Yes, because Crystal Weapon has a different method of activation that's EXACTLY what that means.

"Spammable" doesn't refer to how much damage a skill does or "how it hits", it refers to how the skill behaves and the underlying mechanics.

A spammable skill is one that is direct, instant, & repeatable and needs to be independent of any other action, otherwise the skill isn't spammable; it's castable, but not spammable.

Nobody said Crystal Weapon doesn't scale or hit, it does, but in terms of damage scaling it doesn't scale any higher than the range of genuinely spammable skills that other classes have so it's not as though it "hits" any harder than they do.

The issue with Crystal Weapon is pacing, it's paced far slower than every other classes bona fide spammable skills but doesn't receive any scaling increase to offset that pacing.

And that's not "just" my opinion, read the OPs post; they too mention the same issue and I agree with them.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

No sir, you are incorrect. You do a light attack THEN cast crystal weapon (aka LA weave), and CW will apply to that **PRECEEDING** light attack that you did just before casting CW. It's very consistent and reliable. I'll try to remember to upload a demonstration video when I get home from work tonight.. or try it yourself! True it is unique in that it relies on LA weaving, but surely you're LA weaving anyway with any other ranged spammable? Doesn't really strike me as a drawback.

No, I'm aware of what you said.

A light attack weave MUST have travel time for your strategy to work. This means that it's ONLY effective at range, not at proximity. Given that a significant share of combat in PvP occurs at short range this presents a problem.

Weaving is very much a thing in both PvP and PvE but it's much more consistent in PvE because of the coordination of groups & roles and the nature of the enemies that one faces. In PvP attacks often occur at strategic intervals between blocking, dodging, or other rotation changes. While one can often consistently weave light attacks in PvE that's not a "rule" in PvP, the combat approaches are wholly different. Yes, players can & do weave light attacks in PvP but not as consistently as PvE.

So no, not every spammable is being woven with light attacks. It's one thing that a player should have the choice or availability to weave light attacks along with their class spammable skill, but it's a whole different thing to say that the skill is ONLY "spammable" if it's woven with light attacks. This is why one of the requirements for a genuinely spammable skill is that the skill apply directly to the target, not carry a two-step function like Crystal Weapon; it cannot have a dependency.

A NB can cast Surprise Attack and receive the value of the skills damage directly & immediately on their target, even if they do NOTHING else. A Sorc cannot cast Crystal Weapon and get the same result, there HAS to be an additional light attack. The two mechanics are not the same.

It works in melee too, strangely enough. Seems like it shouldn't but it does. Like visually you'll see your LA land, then cast CW and it somehow still attaches itself to that preceding LA weave and hits the target.. even though visually it is decoupled from the LA.

True CW is not the same as Surprise Attack. It is unique and that allows it to be used in different ways, such as lining it up to hit with other skills simultaneously. So SA is good in some ways CW is good in different ways. It still qualifies as a spammable though.

The other morph, Crystal Frags, is also a spammable. Yes it has a cast time but so does Templar's Dark Flare (their class ranged spammable). Same cast time, range, and damage scaling. And since they made frags capable of proc'ing itself, it actually works pretty well.. I've used it as my main spammable in the past and it really isn't bad. So you do have two spammables to choose from. Now, if you want to make a case that they should function differently then that's great. But claiming Sorc has no class spammable is just incorrect.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect. This strategy only works at range. A Sorc engaging against an enemy that's closed distance isn't going to have the LA travel time to proc Crystal Weapon and have it affect the light attack before that attack strikes the target. Given how subclassing gave everyone easy access to mobility buffs and gap closers this is a reality in PvP now.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

Just because this has a different method of activation doesn't mean that it isn't a spammable. What.

Just because you decide to use Crystal weapon in combination with something like, idk, rending slashes...

...doesn't mean that Crystal weapon doesn't hit like a spammable with comparable auxiliary effects like Surprise Attack, for exampple.

Yes, because Crystal Weapon has a different method of activation that's EXACTLY what that means.

"Spammable" doesn't refer to how much damage a skill does or "how it hits", it refers to how the skill behaves and the underlying mechanics.

A spammable skill is one that is direct, instant, & repeatable and needs to be independent of any other action, otherwise the skill isn't spammable; it's castable, but not spammable.

Nobody said Crystal Weapon doesn't scale or hit, it does, but in terms of damage scaling it doesn't scale any higher than the range of genuinely spammable skills that other classes have so it's not as though it "hits" any harder than they do.

The issue with Crystal Weapon is pacing, it's paced far slower than every other classes bona fide spammable skills but doesn't receive any scaling increase to offset that pacing.

And that's not "just" my opinion, read the OPs post; they too mention the same issue and I agree with them.

"Spammable" means you can spam it which you absolutely can with Crystal Weapon

NxJoeyD · August 6

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

No sir, you are incorrect. You do a light attack THEN cast crystal weapon (aka LA weave), and CW will apply to that **PRECEEDING** light attack that you did just before casting CW. It's very consistent and reliable. I'll try to remember to upload a demonstration video when I get home from work tonight.. or try it yourself! True it is unique in that it relies on LA weaving, but surely you're LA weaving anyway with any other ranged spammable? Doesn't really strike me as a drawback.

No, I'm aware of what you said.

A light attack weave MUST have travel time for your strategy to work. This means that it's ONLY effective at range, not at proximity. Given that a significant share of combat in PvP occurs at short range this presents a problem.

Weaving is very much a thing in both PvP and PvE but it's much more consistent in PvE because of the coordination of groups & roles and the nature of the enemies that one faces. In PvP attacks often occur at strategic intervals between blocking, dodging, or other rotation changes. While one can often consistently weave light attacks in PvE that's not a "rule" in PvP, the combat approaches are wholly different. Yes, players can & do weave light attacks in PvP but not as consistently as PvE.

So no, not every spammable is being woven with light attacks. It's one thing that a player should have the choice or availability to weave light attacks along with their class spammable skill, but it's a whole different thing to say that the skill is ONLY "spammable" if it's woven with light attacks. This is why one of the requirements for a genuinely spammable skill is that the skill apply directly to the target, not carry a two-step function like Crystal Weapon; it cannot have a dependency.

A NB can cast Surprise Attack and receive the value of the skills damage directly & immediately on their target, even if they do NOTHING else. A Sorc cannot cast Crystal Weapon and get the same result, there HAS to be an additional light attack. The two mechanics are not the same.

It works in melee too, strangely enough. Seems like it shouldn't but it does. Like visually you'll see your LA land, then cast CW and it somehow still attaches itself to that preceding LA weave and hits the target.. even though visually it is decoupled from the LA.

True CW is not the same as Surprise Attack. It is unique and that allows it to be used in different ways, such as lining it up to hit with other skills simultaneously. So SA is good in some ways CW is good in different ways. It still qualifies as a spammable though.

The other morph, Crystal Frags, is also a spammable. Yes it has a cast time but so does Templar's Dark Flare (their class ranged spammable). Same cast time, range, and damage scaling. And since they made it capable of proc'ing itself, it actually works pretty well.. I've used it as my main spammable in the past and it really isn't bad. So you do have two spammables to choose from. Now, if you want to make a case that they should function differently then that's great. But claiming Sorc has no class spammable is just incorrect.

No, I'm sorry I'm not wrong.

The general consensus about what makes a skill "spammable", specifically in ESO, has been outlined before, years ago; you can find it here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/319780/what-exactly-is-a-spammable-attack

Neither Crystal Weapon nor Crystal Frags are considered spammbale skills nor do we see the majority of players citing those skills as spammable.

Spammable doesn't mean "just because I can cast it quickly sometimes then that makes it a spammable" ... no, it's the mechanics behind the skill that determines whether it is or not.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

No sir, you are incorrect. You do a light attack THEN cast crystal weapon (aka LA weave), and CW will apply to that **PRECEEDING** light attack that you did just before casting CW. It's very consistent and reliable. I'll try to remember to upload a demonstration video when I get home from work tonight.. or try it yourself! True it is unique in that it relies on LA weaving, but surely you're LA weaving anyway with any other ranged spammable? Doesn't really strike me as a drawback.

No, I'm aware of what you said.

A light attack weave MUST have travel time for your strategy to work. This means that it's ONLY effective at range, not at proximity. Given that a significant share of combat in PvP occurs at short range this presents a problem.

Weaving is very much a thing in both PvP and PvE but it's much more consistent in PvE because of the coordination of groups & roles and the nature of the enemies that one faces. In PvP attacks often occur at strategic intervals between blocking, dodging, or other rotation changes. While one can often consistently weave light attacks in PvE that's not a "rule" in PvP, the combat approaches are wholly different. Yes, players can & do weave light attacks in PvP but not as consistently as PvE.

So no, not every spammable is being woven with light attacks. It's one thing that a player should have the choice or availability to weave light attacks along with their class spammable skill, but it's a whole different thing to say that the skill is ONLY "spammable" if it's woven with light attacks. This is why one of the requirements for a genuinely spammable skill is that the skill apply directly to the target, not carry a two-step function like Crystal Weapon; it cannot have a dependency.

A NB can cast Surprise Attack and receive the value of the skills damage directly & immediately on their target, even if they do NOTHING else. A Sorc cannot cast Crystal Weapon and get the same result, there HAS to be an additional light attack. The two mechanics are not the same.

It works in melee too, strangely enough. Seems like it shouldn't but it does. Like visually you'll see your LA land, then cast CW and it somehow still attaches itself to that preceding LA weave and hits the target.. even though visually it is decoupled from the LA.

True CW is not the same as Surprise Attack. It is unique and that allows it to be used in different ways, such as lining it up to hit with other skills simultaneously. So SA is good in some ways CW is good in different ways. It still qualifies as a spammable though.

The other morph, Crystal Frags, is also a spammable. Yes it has a cast time but so does Templar's Dark Flare (their class ranged spammable). Same cast time, range, and damage scaling. And since they made it capable of proc'ing itself, it actually works pretty well.. I've used it as my main spammable in the past and it really isn't bad. So you do have two spammables to choose from. Now, if you want to make a case that they should function differently then that's great. But claiming Sorc has no class spammable is just incorrect.

No, I'm sorry I'm not wrong.

The general consensus about what makes a skill "spammable", specifically in ESO, has been outlined before, years ago; you can find it here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/319780/what-exactly-is-a-spammable-attack

Neither Crystal Weapon nor Crystal Frags are considered spammbale skills nor do we see the majority of players citing those skills as spammable.

Spammable doesn't mean "just because I can cast it quickly sometimes then that makes it a spammable" ... no, it's the mechanics behind the skill that determines whether it is or not.

Friend, that forum post is from a time before Crystal Weapon or Imbue Weapon existed. And "spammable" is defined many different ways in that thread. We can both pick out examples that suits either side of our little debate here. Crystal Weapon is absolutely a spammable skill, i.e. a skill that can be "spammed" over and over to deal instant direct damage.. albeit it does rely on LA weaving the same way Imbue Weapon does so it is unique in that way. That's also what sets it apart. It can be used in combos the way other spammables cannot (except Imbue Weapon).

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/613970/elemental-weapon-crystal-weapon-and-ranged-spammables

Here is a discussion from 2022 in which Crystal Weapon and Crushing Weapon are being discussed as spammables.

NxJoeyD · August 6

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.

LA weaving doesn't constitute a spam.

A spammable skill is one that is instant, direct, & repeatable.

Crystal Weapon is a two step process, the skill has to be cast, and THEN a light attack has to occur. Crystal Weapon cannot affect the target solely by itself.

So, yes, one can weave a light attack in with Crystal Weapon, the skill itself isn't spammable because it's indirect.

Also, being that Crystal Weapon differs so much from Frags it really can't be viewed as the class spammable because it doesn't synergize well with Mag built Sorcs, rather Stam focused ones. Most class spammables will have equitable morphs across either resource pool, but whereas C Weapon has an instant cast time, Frags does not.

Lastly, given the server state, especially over the last year or so, no spammable skill should rely on weaving to achieve the rapid cast of it's function. Server side latency is horrible now and while weaving is still very much a do-able thing, it's not reliable enough for it to be the foundation for a spammable skill.

Spammable skills must be direct in their function; and every other classes spammable skills are. There are players who can cast Crystal Weapon quickly, I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean that the skill qualifies as a class spammable.

No sir, you are incorrect. You do a light attack THEN cast crystal weapon (aka LA weave), and CW will apply to that **PRECEEDING** light attack that you did just before casting CW. It's very consistent and reliable. I'll try to remember to upload a demonstration video when I get home from work tonight.. or try it yourself! True it is unique in that it relies on LA weaving, but surely you're LA weaving anyway with any other ranged spammable? Doesn't really strike me as a drawback.

No, I'm aware of what you said.

A light attack weave MUST have travel time for your strategy to work. This means that it's ONLY effective at range, not at proximity. Given that a significant share of combat in PvP occurs at short range this presents a problem.

Weaving is very much a thing in both PvP and PvE but it's much more consistent in PvE because of the coordination of groups & roles and the nature of the enemies that one faces. In PvP attacks often occur at strategic intervals between blocking, dodging, or other rotation changes. While one can often consistently weave light attacks in PvE that's not a "rule" in PvP, the combat approaches are wholly different. Yes, players can & do weave light attacks in PvP but not as consistently as PvE.

So no, not every spammable is being woven with light attacks. It's one thing that a player should have the choice or availability to weave light attacks along with their class spammable skill, but it's a whole different thing to say that the skill is ONLY "spammable" if it's woven with light attacks. This is why one of the requirements for a genuinely spammable skill is that the skill apply directly to the target, not carry a two-step function like Crystal Weapon; it cannot have a dependency.

A NB can cast Surprise Attack and receive the value of the skills damage directly & immediately on their target, even if they do NOTHING else. A Sorc cannot cast Crystal Weapon and get the same result, there HAS to be an additional light attack. The two mechanics are not the same.

It works in melee too, strangely enough. Seems like it shouldn't but it does. Like visually you'll see your LA land, then cast CW and it somehow still attaches itself to that preceding LA weave and hits the target.. even though visually it is decoupled from the LA.

True CW is not the same as Surprise Attack. It is unique and that allows it to be used in different ways, such as lining it up to hit with other skills simultaneously. So SA is good in some ways CW is good in different ways. It still qualifies as a spammable though.

The other morph, Crystal Frags, is also a spammable. Yes it has a cast time but so does Templar's Dark Flare (their class ranged spammable). Same cast time, range, and damage scaling. And since they made it capable of proc'ing itself, it actually works pretty well.. I've used it as my main spammable in the past and it really isn't bad. So you do have two spammables to choose from. Now, if you want to make a case that they should function differently then that's great. But claiming Sorc has no class spammable is just incorrect.

No, I'm sorry I'm not wrong.

The general consensus about what makes a skill "spammable", specifically in ESO, has been outlined before, years ago; you can find it here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/319780/what-exactly-is-a-spammable-attack

Neither Crystal Weapon nor Crystal Frags are considered spammbale skills nor do we see the majority of players citing those skills as spammable.

Spammable doesn't mean "just because I can cast it quickly sometimes then that makes it a spammable" ... no, it's the mechanics behind the skill that determines whether it is or not.

Friend, that forum post is from a time before Crystal Weapon or Imbue Weapon existed. And "spammable" is defined many different ways in that thread. We can both pick out examples that suits either side of our little debate here. Crystal Weapon is absolutely a spammable skill, i.e. a skill that can be "spammed" over and over to deal instant direct damage.. albeit it does rely on LA weaving the same way Imbue/Crushing Weapon does so it is unique in that way. That's also what sets it apart. It can be used in combos the way other spammables cannot (except Imbue/Crushing Weapon).

Irrelevant, it's not as though the definition of what makes a skill spammable changed when Crystal Weapon or Imbue were introduced. And really, there is very much consistency in that thread among the contributors about what a spammable skill is; a lot of the same things are given

"As has been mentioned, this means it must be instant-cast (no chargeup), repeatable (and thus no ultimate) and effective in rapid succession (thus no DoT or persisting AoE, or delayed effect)"

The fact that Crystal Weapon RELIES on LA weaving to achieve any degree of GCD pacing is the very disqualifier. If Crystal Weapon has an extra step or an extra condition in it's mechanic compared to every other, recognized, class spammable then you can't put it into the same category.

This is important because if one were to carry out a test, say on a dummy, over the course of let's just use 15 seconds. If we line up each of the class spammables, all using the same build and same stats for each:

Excluding Templar, as they don't have a bona fide instant spammable either; We can see how each classes skill stands up to delivering output over the course of 15 seconds by doing NOTHING other than casting that one spammable skill, directly on the target. Each other class skill is able to maintain a 1/GCD casting pace and deliver pretty consistent output.

Then we get to Crystal Weapon. If we cast the skill followed with light attacks at the conventional application, the skill deals FAR less output than the rest of the group. This is a fair comparison because not every instance in combat is going to accommodate weaving every single light attack. Even if we factor in weaving and weave every light attack with casts of Crystal Weapon to get closer to a 1/GCD pacing the skill still under-performs versus the group; albeit slightly.

This is why the mechanics of pacing matter. It's not ok to say that Crystal Weapon *must* carry the caveat of light attack weaving just to be competitive in combat; especially when no other class has such a demand requirement.

This is how imbalance perpetuates. Simply because a user thinks or feels that a skill "works" in a particular way doesn't mean that the skill works in all or even most ways, it really needs to come down to values and mechanics.

Without light attack weaving, Crystal Weapon yields upwards of 80% less damage versus the rest of the field, that's ridiculous. If the skill scaled higher to make up for that pacing issue then there would be no problem, Sorcs not having a spammable wouldn't matter because the output would math out .. but that's not the case.

If the Crystal Frags morph was Insta-cast rather than the 0.8/s pacing it currently has (and did away with the bonus proc) then the per cast scaling would be a base cast (in this example) of 11,630 and a 15 second (projected) output of 172,450. It would be the strongest of the spammables, slightly, and wouldn't need the bonus proc, but more importantly, would be competitive in both shorter and longer duration combat.

Subclassing didn't just change the landscape of power creep and power scaling but it changed the landscape in the nature of combat mechanics; especially in PvP (but also in PvE). Crystal Weapon doesn't perform like a spammable because it isn't one. It aligns with the pressure perspective of Sorc skills rather than the burst perspective most every other class is built around.

Some of the strongest Sorc builds in the current state don't slot either Crystal Frags or Crystal Weapon & it's no wonder why.

NxJoeyD · August 6

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/613970/elemental-weapon-crystal-weapon-and-ranged-spammables

Here is a discussion from 2022 in which Crystal Weapon and Crushing Weapon are being discussed as spammables.

That thread discusses the two skills in the context of whether they're solely melee or ranged .. due to the scaling differences of each; not that they're, per se, spammable.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

Crystal Weapon is absolutely a spammable. Maybe you don't like the mechanics of how it works but that doesn't mean it isn't a spammable.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/542612/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-5-stonethorn-update-27

Here are the patch notes from when Crystal Weapon was introduced. Here's the important text:

Crystal Blast (morph): This ability has been reworked into a Stamina morph, and renamed to Crystal Weapon. It is now an instant-cast ability that causes your next Light or Heavy Attack made within 4 seconds to deal additional damage, equal to the standard spammable amount such as Lava Whip or Veiled Strike. Enemies hit by this ability will their armor reduced by up to 1000.

The second hit was added later but the initial attack has kept the same scaling. Like it or not zos would like you to think of Crystal Weapon and Crystal Fragments as your class spammables. If you're unhappy with how they work that's a different conversation. But sorc does indeed have a class spammable. Two, in fact.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/613970/elemental-weapon-crystal-weapon-and-ranged-spammables

Here is a discussion from 2022 in which Crystal Weapon and Crushing Weapon are being discussed as spammables.

That thread discusses the two skills in the context of whether they're solely melee or ranged .. due to the scaling differences of each; not that they're, per se, spammable.

The whole conversation is predicated on the assumption that they are spammable attacks.

NxJoeyD · August 6

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/542612/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-5-stonethorn-update-27

Here are the patch notes from when Crystal Weapon was introduced. Here's the important text:

Crystal Blast (morph): This ability has been reworked into a Stamina morph, and renamed to Crystal Weapon. It is now an instant-cast ability that causes your next Light or Heavy Attack made within 4 seconds to deal additional damage, equal to the standard spammable amount such as Lava Whip or Veiled Strike. Enemies hit by this ability will their armor reduced by up to 1000.

The second hit was added later but the initial attack has kept the same scaling. Like it or not zos would like you to think of Crystal Weapon and Crystal Fragments as your class spammables. If you're unhappy with how they work that's a different conversation.

Re-read that again.

First, that patch note says nothing about Frags. And I don't care which experienced player you ask, no player with any experience is going to tell you that a skill with a whopping 0.8 cast time is considered "spammable" .. that puts the pacing at nearly 1/2 the standard rate. That's not spammable to be that slow, that's castable.

As for Weapon, look at what they say: "equal to the standard spammable amount such as Lava Whip or Veiled Strike" ... The Devs gave two, clear, examples of spammable skills and indicated that the Crystal Weapon skill scales equally to the STANDARD spammable amount ... not OTHER spammable.

They're telling you that the skill has scaling in-line with current spammable skills and gave you examples of spammable skills but never said that Crystal Weapon was one.

Interestingly, in the time since the skill was launched until now the scaling has since fallen short and the skill doesn't scale as high as those skills anymore.

ketsparrowhawk · August 6

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/542612/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-5-stonethorn-update-27

Here are the patch notes from when Crystal Weapon was introduced. Here's the important text:

Crystal Blast (morph): This ability has been reworked into a Stamina morph, and renamed to Crystal Weapon. It is now an instant-cast ability that causes your next Light or Heavy Attack made within 4 seconds to deal additional damage, equal to the standard spammable amount such as Lava Whip or Veiled Strike. Enemies hit by this ability will their armor reduced by up to 1000.

The second hit was added later but the initial attack has kept the same scaling. Like it or not zos would like you to think of Crystal Weapon and Crystal Fragments as your class spammables. If you're unhappy with how they work that's a different conversation.

Re-read that again.

First, that patch note says nothing about Frags. And I don't care which experienced player you ask, no player with any experience is going to tell you that a skill with a whopping 0.8 cast time is considered "spammable" .. that puts the pacing at nearly 1/2 the standard rate. That's not spammable to be that slow, that's castable.

As for Weapon, look at what they say: "equal to the standard spammable amount such as Lava Whip or Veiled Strike" ... The Devs gave two, clear, examples of spammable skills and indicated that the Crystal Weapon skill scales equally to the STANDARD spammable amount ... not OTHER spammable.

They're telling you that the skill has scaling in-line with current spammable skills and gave you examples of spammable skills but never said that Crystal Weapon was one.

Interestingly, in the time since the skill was launched until now the scaling has since fallen short and the skill doesn't scale as high as those skills anymore.

Right. They're comparing CW to other spammables because that's how they intend for players to think of it; as a spammable skill (which it is).

People use dizzying swing and rapid strikes all the time. Would you argue that those don't count as spammables? At least with frags you have the luxury of casting from long range. It lands wayyyyyy more often than dizzy that is for sure. And it has a higher TT than other ranged spammables to account for the cast time (just like Templar's Dark Flare).

NxJoeyD · August 6

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/542612/pc-mac-patch-notes-v6-1-5-stonethorn-update-27

Here are the patch notes from when Crystal Weapon was introduced. Here's the important text:

Crystal Blast (morph): This ability has been reworked into a Stamina morph, and renamed to Crystal Weapon. It is now an instant-cast ability that causes your next Light or Heavy Attack made within 4 seconds to deal additional damage, equal to the standard spammable amount such as Lava Whip or Veiled Strike. Enemies hit by this ability will their armor reduced by up to 1000.

The second hit was added later but the initial attack has kept the same scaling. Like it or not zos would like you to think of Crystal Weapon and Crystal Fragments as your class spammables. If you're unhappy with how they work that's a different conversation.

Re-read that again.

First, that patch note says nothing about Frags. And I don't care which experienced player you ask, no player with any experience is going to tell you that a skill with a whopping 0.8 cast time is considered "spammable" .. that puts the pacing at nearly 1/2 the standard rate. That's not spammable to be that slow, that's castable.

As for Weapon, look at what they say: "equal to the standard spammable amount such as Lava Whip or Veiled Strike" ... The Devs gave two, clear, examples of spammable skills and indicated that the Crystal Weapon skill scales equally to the STANDARD spammable amount ... not OTHER spammable.

They're telling you that the skill has scaling in-line with current spammable skills and gave you examples of spammable skills but never said that Crystal Weapon was one.

Interestingly, in the time since the skill was launched until now the scaling has since fallen short and the skill doesn't scale as high as those skills anymore.

People use dizzying swing and rapid strikes all the time. Would you argue that those don't count as spammables? At least with frags you have the luxury of casting from long range. It lands wayyyyyy more often than dizzy that is for sure. And it has a higher TT than other ranged spammables to account for the cast time (just like Templar's Dark Flare).

Right. They're comparing CW to other spammables because that's how they intend for players to think of it; as a spammable skill (which it is).

I would agree that those don't count as spammables. Yes, I know people use both Dizzying and Rapid often but the only one that has any back to back spam potential of those two is Rapid because at least, although, that skill has a channel time it's outputting damage the entire time.

When you have players that, now, can self heal to full from execute range within 1 GCD, as a normal, then the amount of time that any skill takes to perform it's function matters more.

Why do you think it is that so many builds gravitate toward so many of the same skills over and over? That's not to say that every skill can be or should be exactly the same, that would be unrealistic .. but when we compare and contrast we have to be a bit more granular than we used to be if we're going to deliver classes that are broadly competitive; especially in light of what we've seen out of DK & WW ... Going Forward Sorcs can't have skills that take 0.8s to cast when they've got whips, stacks of burning, and snares all affecting them simultaneously. Spammable skills need to be able to perform their function instantly and independently and order to be competitive; and I say that not just from pulling it out of the air, but by comparing everything else in the game.

I literally just did a 15 second damage output test with every class "spammable" skill that the game has and Crystal Weapon failed miserably. If played the way the Devs wrote the skill (using Crystal Weapon to buff light attacks) the skill yields 80% less damage than every other class ... 80% is beyond enormous. And that failure of the skill went directly to it's pacing, not it's scaling.

Currently there's no rule or prerequisite that players must weave their light attacks in order to play the game. It's advised, but not required. Even with weaving, when I performed the test I'd estimate roughly 20% of the light attacks that I pre-cast (melee) landed on the target before Crystal Weapon buffed them, fouling up the rotation. (chalk that up to latency).

So, no, I don't think there's a fact baseline to say Crystal Weapon is spammable when it's so far off the mark simply because the player can't directly repeat it, they'd have to weave it; even if the Devs want me to think so.

When I think of "spammable" I'm looking at how the majority of players are using "spammable" skills in current build gameplay, now how they used to .. I'm looking at Flame Lash, I'm looking at Surprise Attack, I'm looking at Crushing Shock, Rending Slash, etc ... these skills are all consistently & directly repeatable ... because that's what we have to compete with and that's the baseline that we have to meet.

ketsparrowhawk · August 7

I'm not arguing about whether or not CW/CF are as good as other spammables.. only that they are spammables. It would be better to request adjustments to Sorc's existing spammables (ex: make frags always instant cast but only deal bonus damage when you get the special proc.. make CW a normal instant cast instead of empowering LA's, etc), rather than insisting that they have none. In the eyes of zos sorc has two class spammables to choose from.

Of course there is no rule requiring you to LA weave.. but it is a de-facto core mechanic of the game and there are many skills and armor sets that are designed around it. There are other spammable options for ppl who don't want to be so reliant on LA weaving. Frags would actually be a great option in that case since the extra damage (due to the cast time) kinda makes up for the damage loss of not LA weaving. Plus you save barspace because your spammable and special burst attack are the same skill (I've done this exact setup before and it's really not bad).

Some spammables have cast times and they deal extra damage to compensate for that. Frags, Dark Flare, Dizzy, Rapid Strikes, Jabs are absolutely spammable skills, i.e. they are intended to be cast back-to-back in succession (aka "spammed"). If we can't agree on that then I doubt we will find common ground here.

NxJoeyD · August 7

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I'm not arguing about whether or not CW/CF are as good as other spammables.. only that they are spammables. It would be better to request adjustments to Sorc's existing spammables (ex: make frags always instant cast but only deal bonus damage when you get the special proc.. make CW a normal instant cast instead of empowering LA's, etc), rather than insisting that they have none. In the eyes of zos sorc has two class spammables to choose from.

Of course there is no rule requiring you to LA weave.. but it is a de-facto core mechanic of the game and there are many skills and armor sets that are designed around it. There are other spammable options for ppl who don't want to be so reliant on LA weaving. Frags would actually be a great option in that case since the extra damage (due to the cast time) kinda makes up for the damage loss of not LA weaving. Plus you save barspace because your spammable and special burst attack are the same skill (I've done this exact setup before and it's really not bad).

Some spammables have cast times and they deal extra damage to compensate for that. Frags, Dark Flare, Dizzy, Rapid Strikes, Jabs are absolutely spammable skills, i.e. they are intended to be cast back-to-back in succession (aka "spammed"). If you don't agree then I doubt we will find common ground here.

Well think about that for a moment ... how can something be in a particular category if the key reason why it under-performs is part of what defines that category?

If something doesn't perform similarly (as a spammable) as all the rest of the other skills in that group; is it really accurate to call it a spammable "just because"? Shouldn't everything in a particular category have some sort of unifying baseline criteria? I mean, that's how categories generally work.

In no manner of statistics has it ever been correct to take outliers and wrap them in with a category. In this case, Crystal Weapon / Frags would be the outliers.

It looks like we agree that neither Crystal Weapon nor Frags are competitive or "as good" as any other class spammable so why would we include them in that category?

Radiant Oppression can be cast in back-to-back succession but nobody would ever consider that skill spammable.

And that's not just my opinion that those two skills aren't as good or competitive; the ESO logs support that as well.