Strange interaction with ToT Opponent

SwordOfSagas · July 20

Dude must think his in a real life game of Yu-Gi-Oh.

spartaxoxo · July 20

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Fun fact: If both players simultaneously get 80 or more prestige, then the turn player is the winner!

How can this happen?

Player A is Turn player
Player A has 79 Prestige and 6 power.
Player A ends their turn

Player B has Firesong Haruspex
Player B has a 5 Health Chimera
Player B has 79 Prestige

I'm still confused. If Player A is the turn player and they reach 80 then it doesn't matter what Player B has because the game ends before they can play their hand.

The chimera absorbs 5 of the power with taunt. Firesong Haruspex is an agent with a passive effect that grants 1 prestige if an agent is placed into the cooldown pile.

Player A did not have 80 at the end of their turn. They had 79. When they ended their turn their unspent power was first used to kill Player B's agent, taking away 5 power and granting Played A 1 power. Simultaneously, 1 power was granted to Player B because of the chimera being destroyed. So they both gained 1 prestige when Player A ended their turn resulting in them both hitting 80.

Now, idk which person wins there. As I didn't understand the last part.

@Personofsecrets
Since this happens after Player A ended their turn, does that mean Player B wins? Or is Player A's win since their cards were still resolving prior to Player B's turn?

SilverBride · July 20

I'm not real familiar with these particular cards but I do know that a player has to end their turn for the prestige they gained to be counted. Since player A was the turn player they would win because they locked in their prestige and reached 80. What cards player B holds doesn't matter now because player A already reached 80.

Personofsecrets · July 20

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Fun fact: If both players simultaneously get 80 or more prestige, then the turn player is the winner!

How can this happen?

Player A is Turn player
Player A has 79 Prestige and 6 power.
Player A ends their turn

Player B has Firesong Haruspex
Player B has a 5 Health Chimera
Player B has 79 Prestige

I'm still confused. If Player A is the turn player and they reach 80 then it doesn't matter what Player B has because the game ends before they can play their hand.

The chimera absorbs 5 of the power with taunt. Firesong Haruspex is an agent with a passive effect that grants 1 prestige if an agent is placed into the cooldown pile.

Player A did not have 80 at the end of their turn. They had 79. When they ended their turn their unspent power was first used to kill Player B's agent, taking away 5 power and granting Played A 1 power. Simultaneously, 1 power was granted to Player B because of the chimera being destroyed. So they both gained 1 prestige when Player A ended their turn resulting in them both hitting 80.

Now, idk which person wins there. As I didn't understand the last part.

@Personofsecrets
Since this happens after Player A ended their turn, does that mean Player B wins? Or is Player A's win since their cards were still resolving prior to Player B's turn?

Player A is turn player and I imagine that this all happens in what would be considered to be a "cleanup step" in other games. There may be some official verbage in the games help section for ToT.

You can see from this old post that I was the Haruspex player and lost.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655039/just-for-your-interest-tot-does-not-have-tie-games

Arunei · July 20

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's very rare that I or my opponent say anything to each other, during or after a game. But yesterday my opponent had a lot to say.

It was a good close game and I think we both played well, but I ended up winning with a score of 82. Immediately they whispered me that there was a flaw with the game and how the game ended abruptly. I explained that if a game keeps going on it will end when the first player reaches 80. They said they know that but I had one more turn than they did and they had 10 points they would have received in their next hand so it wasn't fair.

Then they went on to tell me they had never seen anyone play Ongrum the way I did and I was doing it wrong. By that point I was getting irritated and told them I obviously wasn't playing it wrong because I won. Once again I said they had played well so let's just accept that but they kept going on. I finally just logged for a few minutes to get away from it.

Has anyone else had opponents approach them like this after a game?

I personally still think this 80 kill win is a bad implementation.

I suggested on two occasions a modification to that second threshold:
When one player reaches 80+ points in his turn the other opponent should have ONE attempt to exceed this upon which the first player gets one opportunity to exceed the new score until one player fails to exceed the score. It is easy to implement and would not feel so off.

Why is it a bad win condition, it's the exact same thing you suggested. There HAS to be a cutoff or games could potentially go on for hours.

Player A hits 82.
Player B gets a "grace turn" and gets to 84.
Player A reaches 90.
Player B gets to 91.
Player A gets to 95.
Player B only gets to 94, thus losing.

How is that any different than the current win condition? Player B still doesn't get an "extra" turn, it's only drawn out the match.

Even if Player B DOES win, how is that then fair? They're called win conditions for a reason and there are card games in real life that also have them. Most games have them. They aren't called "win conditions so long as your opponent doesn't reach it on a grace turn".

SeaGtGruff · July 20

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I personally still think this 80 kill win is a bad implementation.

I suggested on two occasions a modification to that second threshold:
When one player reaches 80+ points in his turn the other opponent should have ONE attempt to exceed this upon which the first player gets one opportunity to exceed the new score until one player fails to exceed the score. It is easy to implement and would not feel so off.

But that's sort of what already happens when a player reaches 40+ points-- the opponent gets a chance to exceed that score.

80 points is sort of like a final finish line, and the first player to cross it (if the match goes that far) wins the match. The horse and jockey who cross the finish line second don't get "one more chance to beat the winner." The match needs to end. Adding more rules to keep giving the losing player "just one more chance" only serves to drag the match out needlessly, imho.

Lokiator · July 20

It's not uncommon to get lots of chat commentary from a player having a bad game or who thinks that the RNG just played too heavily in their opponent's favour. I just ignore it whenever that happens. I don't keep chat open while playing, but I've had opponents give a running commentary through each turn about how lucky I was or unlucky they were. After the end of the game, I'll glance at chat and sometimes I've got a full window of blue whispers.

That being said, I do agree that Player 2 deserves a final turn if Player 1 reaches 80 points first. It just makes sense to me that the decision in this scenario be based on both players having an equal number of turns played. This rule is a major contributing factor to why I have a significantly better win rate as Player 1.

DeathandDebauchery · July 20

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I was pretty surprised by how they just kept going on and on about how unfair it was that I had one more turn than them. I had never seen anything like it in all the time I played ToT.

That's typically what happens when Player 1 wins. Player 1 often has an advantage because of that even in perfectly balanced games like chess. Opponent was a milk drinker.

I find that this happens especially if Player 1 picks Alessia because of the 1st round Alessia spin. There was a (now former?) player that very clearly cooked their scores that used to do this all the time. I wonder if they got banned or just quit when it became clear they couldn't cheat the new ToT timer.

The player you are thinking about stopped playing mid-season as soon as the que timer was updated. They would rank up so fast, that I sometimes wondered if they had another account that they would use for ranking up. I should indicate that I have no evidence of that happening and that I think they are a skilled player.

What makes you think that they were cooking their scores? They stopped choosing Alessia against me after I began to counter with Red Eagle and Saint Pelin. Some amount of time, that combination when going second goofs up the first turn players ability to spam Alessia and let's the 2nd player spam Alessia instead.

Although, I will point out that such play style is awful and make me wonder why the designers would make such an unthoughtful strategy viable. There have been several lolcow players that spank me around with first turn Alessia which is quite funny from the design perspective.

They are a skilled player, but they were often 1000 points above people like you, jhart, gone, etc who are absolutely playing on their level if not better. I beat him at least 50% of the time, so I could never understand how he was always 1000 points ahead of others. That to me suggests multiple accounts cooking scores.

There is also a cultural factor where certain cultures value exploits and when those exploits are fixed, they often rage out and quit. (See Slay the Spire 2 Controversy) which is also a deck-building game. I have no evidence to PROVE that is why this player quit, but the timing of the fact that they quit literally the moment this fix was implemented is extremely suspicious.

Personofsecrets · July 20

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I was pretty surprised by how they just kept going on and on about how unfair it was that I had one more turn than them. I had never seen anything like it in all the time I played ToT.

That's typically what happens when Player 1 wins. Player 1 often has an advantage because of that even in perfectly balanced games like chess. Opponent was a milk drinker.

I find that this happens especially if Player 1 picks Alessia because of the 1st round Alessia spin. There was a (now former?) player that very clearly cooked their scores that used to do this all the time. I wonder if they got banned or just quit when it became clear they couldn't cheat the new ToT timer.

The player you are thinking about stopped playing mid-season as soon as the que timer was updated. They would rank up so fast, that I sometimes wondered if they had another account that they would use for ranking up. I should indicate that I have no evidence of that happening and that I think they are a skilled player.

What makes you think that they were cooking their scores? They stopped choosing Alessia against me after I began to counter with Red Eagle and Saint Pelin. Some amount of time, that combination when going second goofs up the first turn players ability to spam Alessia and let's the 2nd player spam Alessia instead.

Although, I will point out that such play style is awful and make me wonder why the designers would make such an unthoughtful strategy viable. There have been several lolcow players that spank me around with first turn Alessia which is quite funny from the design perspective.

They are a skilled player, but they were often 1000 points above people like you, jhart, gone, etc who are absolutely playing on their level if not better. I beat him at least 50% of the time, so I could never understand how he was always 1000 points ahead of others. That to me suggests multiple accounts cooking scores.

There is also a cultural factor where certain cultures value exploits and when those exploits are fixed, they often rage out and quit. (See Slay the Spire 2 Controversy) which is also a deck-building game. I have no evidence to PROVE that is why this player quit, but the timing of the fact that they quit literally the moment this fix was implemented is extremely suspicious.

I believe that they are a Japanese player. I've heard about honor culture, so I'm not so sure if crashing out will apply here, but I won't make assumptions.

I do know that I was giving them around one hundred thousand gold in mats when they were coming in first place during the season. We were "friends" in the friend list sense. Then they blocked me after I won a game against them. Okay, I used Raj a few times that game, but I don't think it was excessive, provocative, or poor manners, but maybe they found it rude. I found this change in their disposition unbecoming and contrary to my expectations. Okay, this is just one thing that happens, but it does make me question the overall character a little bit.

I tell that story to tie our discussion back to the thread of poor sportsmanship. It's interesting that ToT chaffs so many butts. I'm even in a ToT guild where some players refuse to GL or GG me even thought they do so with others.

Anyhow, one funny observation that I've had is that it seems like a trend for players with poor attitudes to try and implement scam strategies like spamming Raj (even when it's not correct), spamming Sorc King, or picking Mora/Alessia. It's maybe not a universal, but if I were going to build a successful team, I could probably disqualify Sorc King, Mora, and Alessia people right away.

spartaxoxo · July 21

Personofsecrets wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Fun fact: If both players simultaneously get 80 or more prestige, then the turn player is the winner!

How can this happen?

Player A is Turn player
Player A has 79 Prestige and 6 power.
Player A ends their turn

Player B has Firesong Haruspex
Player B has a 5 Health Chimera
Player B has 79 Prestige

I'm still confused. If Player A is the turn player and they reach 80 then it doesn't matter what Player B has because the game ends before they can play their hand.

The chimera absorbs 5 of the power with taunt. Firesong Haruspex is an agent with a passive effect that grants 1 prestige if an agent is placed into the cooldown pile.

Player A did not have 80 at the end of their turn. They had 79. When they ended their turn their unspent power was first used to kill Player B's agent, taking away 5 power and granting Played A 1 power. Simultaneously, 1 power was granted to Player B because of the chimera being destroyed. So they both gained 1 prestige when Player A ended their turn resulting in them both hitting 80.

Now, idk which person wins there. As I didn't understand the last part.

@Personofsecrets
Since this happens after Player A ended their turn, does that mean Player B wins? Or is Player A's win since their cards were still resolving prior to Player B's turn?

Player A is turn player and I imagine that this all happens in what would be considered to be a "cleanup step" in other games. There may be some official verbage in the games help section for ToT.

You can see from this old post that I was the Haruspex player and lost.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655039/just-for-your-interest-tot-does-not-have-tie-games

Wow crazy to see an actually tie score. I think that is smart it resolved in favor of the person who played though.