Vengeance is very depressing

Militan1404 · July 20

They should hurry up and finish the class mastery before the rest of the player base leave and ditch vengeance, its not a thing and never gonna happen

LadyGP · July 20

Kiash wrote: »

Honestly reading over this thread, I understand why they are making bad decisions. Every person in here wants something different out of Cyrodiil and ESO PvP. Banning sets? Eliminate cross healing? These sound terrible to me. Character identity is huge for me, and I play a healer main. That's effectively just telling me to stop playing the game if you remove cross heal tbh.

It's really not that hard to figure out what people want. People want to have build identity, half decent server performance, decent size fights (right now if 20 people go afk the maps dead), no more unkillable ball groups (ball groups need to remain they just are a bit over powered right now), etc. Right now ball groups are the biggest problem.. and the small man unkillable groups too. They have always been a problem but... they are like on steroids level of ridiculous right now.

A lot of these problems can be fixed by just fixing server calculations. Reduce sets that are nuking performance, tweak shield stacking and other ways to weaken ball groups a bit while still letting them remain, etc.

It's really not that hard to figure out. You've got about 5 years of people complaining saying the same thing.

Slowly take things away instead of taking everything away and slowly adding them back.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · July 20

Kiash wrote: »

Honestly reading over this thread, I understand why they are making bad decisions. Every person in here wants something different out of Cyrodiil and ESO PvP. Banning sets? Eliminate cross healing? These sound terrible to me. Character identity is huge for me, and I play a healer main. That's effectively just telling me to stop playing the game if you remove cross heal tbh.

There is one thing almost the entire community can agree on: Vengeance sucks.

Major_Mangle · July 20

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

It is the same story as with non-proc. That game mode got some traction and some people were very vocal about how much they loved it, but when push came to shove and the honeymoon effect wore off, it turned out to be far less popular than the regular PVP we already had.

Crazy how fast people forget, or just selective memory, idk...

React · July 20

NovelliESO wrote: »

I posed in another thread but there are an infinite number of ways to lessen the strain on the server in the current state of GH. Volendrung is the biggest cause of lag, and obviously not because of the weapon itself, but because it attracts every single player to one area. A spread out fight of 10v10 on four separate corners of the map is much easier on the server than a single 40v40. Infinite ressing, or access to it while in combat can create a sometimes endless fight that causes huge strain on the server because for whatever reason the effects continue rolling and in combat bug keeps whatever is on your character there for some undisclosed amount of time.

We can remove some of the guards from the server that don't really do anything, ones they aren't even near keeps, as well as updating some of their abilities to not be as buggy as they are. Siege can be changed so that it has less strain on the server, all the ground effects in big fights are costly. Cross healing outside of group should be removed, and should have been removed with the latest change that applies a debuff of 33%.

If you are already going to lock every single person out of GH for an entire week, you can even do things I wouldn't recommend, but being that you're doing something 100x worse it should be met with less hate. Turn off certain sets, turn off multiple sets, do 2-3 days long tests and compare results. Turn off a new set every few days. This is a much better option than closing the server entirely, and you wouldn't need to funnel people anywhere, they would still log into GH. Just, a month before, put out a schedule of every single set that will be tested, it would probably get great results for what you are trying to find out as the issue with the server.

Yeah, agree with all of this. I'm sure you remember in the past they had tested certain things like this (cross healing outside of group is the one that comes to mind which felt like it actually benefited performance), but they always told us after the tests that the results didn't reach whatever metric they were looking for, even for the tests where we felt some marginal improvement.

It just feels odd they haven't gone further with imposing these tests on the live GH environment. Instead of starting from scratch with vengeance, start from GH and work backwards. Implement no healing outside of group as a mid term addition, with the intention of it being there for several months or permanently if it proves to help performance. Then on a biweekly/monthly basis, remove or limit another thing. Volendrung, background game systems that aren't crucial to PVP (mail, achievements, etc), impose limits to shield stacking/max HP, rework the siege, remove specific sets that are known to cause mass calculations. See if eventually we can reach an environment that most people enjoy which performs better. I think it would take far less iterations to reach that end goal compared to vengeance, and overall the population would be much more receptive as well.

Stamicka · July 20

Kiash wrote: »

Honestly reading over this thread, I understand why they are making bad decisions. Every person in here wants something different out of Cyrodiil and ESO PvP. Banning sets? Eliminate cross healing? These sound terrible to me. Character identity is huge for me, and I play a healer main. That's effectively just telling me to stop playing the game if you remove cross heal tbh.

How has your character identity improved from all of this though? What did Subclassing and Hybridization do to help? How does cross healing help?

s3dulo · July 20

As a 90% PVPer, I have zero interest in Vengeance. The fact that you can't do a "Vengeance test" without removing the Cyro that everyone actually wants to play is telling. But removing GH won't get me to play Vengeance. It just makes me more motivated to avoid it in order to communicate that ZOS shouldn't be dedicating anymore resources in developing it. So this week I'll just be farming PVE or running around IC.

L_Nici · July 20

Even with removing all other options Vengeance currently does not even manage 2 bars across on EU...soo just give up already.

Luneca · July 20

Stamicka wrote: »

Kiash wrote: »

Honestly reading over this thread, I understand why they are making bad decisions. Every person in here wants something different out of Cyrodiil and ESO PvP. Banning sets? Eliminate cross healing? These sound terrible to me. Character identity is huge for me, and I play a healer main. That's effectively just telling me to stop playing the game if you remove cross heal tbh.

How has your character identity improved from all of this though? What did Subclassing and Hybridization do to help? How does cross healing help?

I would like to know too because, when not firing siege I play healer in PvP. I don't think RR or Vigor should function the way they do and I also don't like smart healing. Healing takes no skill in the game thanks to smart healing and HoT stacking.

I slot neither of those two heals and I can't wait for the day both either get nerfed or smart healing is eliminated. We'll see who the real healers are then. It sure can't be the 99.9% of healers that cannot even stop a bomb attempt from a single bomber in Cyro.

Twohothardware · July 20

I honestly don't know why they keep putting in this work for Vengeance. None of the PvP community wants this kind of campaign and there isn't enough player counts without Crossplay to support more than one main Campaign.

Maitsukas · July 20

L_Nici wrote: »

Even with removing all other options Vengeance currently does not even manage 2 bars across on EU...soo just give up already.

PC-EU right now:

Stamicka · July 20

Kiash wrote: »

Honestly reading over this thread, I understand why they are making bad decisions. Every person in here wants something different out of Cyrodiil and ESO PvP. Banning sets? Eliminate cross healing? These sound terrible to me. Character identity is huge for me, and I play a healer main. That's effectively just telling me to stop playing the game if you remove cross heal tbh.

Forgot to comment on this part, but I wouldn’t take my comments about what I want from PvP to be the norm at all. At this point I’ve gotten so much pushback here on the forums that I think a lot of people are pretty united about what they want.

I think the current PvP community actually likes all of the build “choices” and they like being way stronger than others. Most of the people who valued fairness left already. So there’s been natural selection and it’s left a very particular (and very unfortunate) type of crowd.

The only reason I’m still around is cause there’s not many other games to go to for an MMO experience that aren’t tab target or very slow in terms of combat.

ESO’s PvP is niche for quite a few reasons. The PvP population doesn’t really grow anymore. It doesn’t work as a casual intentionally ridiculous PvP game, cause that crowd would have many barriers to entry and they would get farmed. It doesn’t work as an actual competitive game, cause there’s so much uneven footing and imbalance.

I’ve kind of arrived at the conclusion that it’s too late to pivot into more of a fair game to attract serious/actual competitive players. That would get too much outrage.

So I don’t expect the PvP population to ever steadily increase back to healthy levels. What’s required to do that would be rejected by the niche crowd that’s left.

The game has lasted over a decade by now. So I can understand why ZOS would cater to the niche PvP audience that’s left. It makes sense in some ways, but what that crowd wants will keep PvP in a dying state. Maybe ZOS should listen, but that crowd shouldn’t be surprised when the day comes where not even Grey Host fills anymore.

BardokRedSnow · July 20

Kiash wrote: »

Honestly reading over this thread, I understand why they are making bad decisions. Every person in here wants something different out of Cyrodiil and ESO PvP. Banning sets? Eliminate cross healing? These sound terrible to me. Character identity is huge for me, and I play a healer main. That's effectively just telling me to stop playing the game if you remove cross heal tbh.

He said eliminate cross healing outside of a group, you'd just join up with a group. Pug healing is at least better than trying to solo heal.

BetweenMidgets · July 20

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Eventually people stop getting angry and simply stop logging in. That is the stage I fear many players are beginning to reach. And once players with thousands of hours invested start quietly moving on, getting them back is far harder than listening to them in the first place.

Well said. This is where I am, same for my small man group. A lot of the old guard I used to play with (or even just see around a lot) haven't been online in months.

I think ZOS would be happy if we played PVP how they hoped we would: card game or firing siege.
Neither of those are compelling gameplay to me.

Luneca · July 21

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Eventually people stop getting angry and simply stop logging in. That is the stage I fear many players are beginning to reach. And once players with thousands of hours invested start quietly moving on, getting them back is far harder than listening to them in the first place.

Well said. This is where I am, same for my small man group. A lot of the old guard I used to play with (or even just see around a lot) haven't been online in months.

I think ZOS would be happy if we played PVP how they hoped we would: card game or firing siege.
Neither of those are compelling gameplay to me.

I don't think they even want us to fire siege. I can't fire 6 coldfires in Vengeance. Limited use of siege against opponents that just overrun the keeps. It's lame.

What they want is turn-based combat.