Strange interaction with ToT Opponent

SilverBride · July 18

It's very rare that I or my opponent say anything to each other, during or after a game. But yesterday my opponent had a lot to say.

It was a good close game and I think we both played well, but I ended up winning with a score of 82. Immediately they whispered me that there was a flaw with the game and how the game ended abruptly. I explained that if a game keeps going on it will end when the first player reaches 80. They said they know that but I had one more turn than they did and they had 10 points they would have received in their next hand so it wasn't fair.

Then they went on to tell me they had never seen anyone play Ongrum the way I did and I was doing it wrong. By that point I was getting irritated and told them I obviously wasn't playing it wrong because I won. Once again I said they had played well so let's just accept that but they kept going on. I finally just logged for a few minutes to get away from it.

Has anyone else had opponents approach them like this after a game?

ESO_player123 · July 18

I always try to respond politely to polite questions/comments or ""gg" messages. However, when I occasionally get a weird or salty whisper (it was much more common in the early days of the game), I ignore or simply block the player. If someone would try to tell me that I'm playing a patron "wrong" or start writing me essays out of the blue, I would put them on ignore list.

SilverBride · July 18

I logged off for a few to stop the interaction. If they had started again when I came back I would have put them on ignore. If I get matched with them again I will either put them on ignore from the start, or leave the game, or both.

Munkfist · July 18

There are some that will berate you just for your choice of decks, but also a lot of great people that take a win or loss with grace. In the end, it's pvp, and a lot of that stereotypical mentality follows it.

Luneca · July 18

Tales of Tribute is that serious? Wow. I'm missing out. But I think I'd still rather fire siege.

spartaxoxo · July 18

Sore losers are common with any PvP game. I actually laugh at these. I'm like "Oh I was a problem for you, huh?" But, I just think it's silly to get that bent out of shape over a loss in a video game, especially when they're not any even any stakes.

SilverBride · July 18

I was pretty surprised by how they just kept going on and on about how unfair it was that I had one more turn than them. I had never seen anything like it in all the time I played ToT.

Gabriel_H · July 18

A friend who is a regular ToT player often gets messages and interactions after matches, usually insults if they won.

SilverBride · July 18

I'm on PCNA and it has been very rare for anyone to say anything to the other player.

spartaxoxo · July 18

SilverBride wrote: »

I was pretty surprised by how they just kept going on and on about how unfair it was that I had one more turn than them. I had never seen anything like it in all the time I played ToT.

That's typically what happens when Player 1 wins. Player 1 often has an advantage because of that even in perfectly balanced games like chess. Opponent was a milk drinker.

Personofsecrets · July 20

The game seems to be poorly balanced. On top of that, the design team chose to appeal to different personalities by their design choices.

Poor balance = conflict causing
Forcing different personalities against eachother = conflict causing

Balance and a consistent game are keys

DeathandDebauchery · July 20

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The game seems to be poorly balanced. On top of that, the design team chose to appeal to different personalities by their design choices.

Poor balance = conflict causing
Forcing different personalities against eachother = conflict causing

Balance and a consistent game are keys

Yep, the problem with ToT is that there is certain broken elements of the RNG and deck selections that make some games more then others about 'skill' - there is also a distinct knowledge gap between the OG 4 decks and the later decks. A game involving Mora/Crows is very different then a game without them in how 'swingy' and 'skillful' they feel.

You don't see this typically in Top 100 play, but when I'm putzing around on my other account just to try out new strategies I often realize people don't really know how the decks play and interact and they are losing because of lack of base game knowledge.

The learning curve on ToT just from a deck/mechanics knowledge perspective is pretty deep. It took me 100+ hours of gameplay to consistently be Top 50.

ToT having a "each side can reject 1 deck before selecting decks" mechanic would go a LONG way to improving player happiness and engagement.

But back to @SilverBride's point - I often message other players GG when they beat me, or when its very early on in the game and it's clear that I am going to lose, I generally beg them to patron or end it fast so that I can get on to my next game and not get a 10-min timer. Generally the only jerky thing I experience is people purposely prolonging those games after I ask them to patron me.

That said, if its clearly a name I don't recognize and they make a massive error that would have resulted in them winning (like missing a patron, or not understanding a game mechanic) depending on my vibe with that player I will let them know about their error to correct for the future, but I think that's because I spend a lot of time coaching other players on ToT in general so it feels natural.

DeathandDebauchery · July 20

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I was pretty surprised by how they just kept going on and on about how unfair it was that I had one more turn than them. I had never seen anything like it in all the time I played ToT.

That's typically what happens when Player 1 wins. Player 1 often has an advantage because of that even in perfectly balanced games like chess. Opponent was a milk drinker.

I find that this happens especially if Player 1 picks Alessia because of the 1st round Alessia spin. There was a (now former?) player that very clearly cooked their scores that used to do this all the time. I wonder if they got banned or just quit when it became clear they couldn't cheat the new ToT timer.

SilverBride · July 20

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

ToT having a "each side can reject 1 deck before selecting decks" mechanic would go a LONG way to improving player happiness and engagement.

I suggested something like this here and hope they consider it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687405/we-need-to-be-able-to-block-certain-patrons-from-casual-games#latest

HatchetHaro · July 20

Honestly, no big deal. Tales of Tribute is PvP. You'll get some weird whispers some times.

SilverBride · July 20

Oh I know that is always possible to get weird whispers sometimes. I was just taken aback by how adament they were that they should have been given another turn because they had 10 points to play and I had one turn more than them.

Arunei · July 20

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I was pretty surprised by how they just kept going on and on about how unfair it was that I had one more turn than them. I had never seen anything like it in all the time I played ToT.

That's typically what happens when Player 1 wins. Player 1 often has an advantage because of that even in perfectly balanced games like chess. Opponent was a milk drinker.

I find that this happens especially if Player 1 picks Alessia because of the 1st round Alessia spin. There was a (now former?) player that very clearly cooked their scores that used to do this all the time. I wonder if they got banned or just quit when it became clear they couldn't cheat the new ToT timer.

There's a new timer? I don't play ToT much these days and when I do it's against NPCs, did the timer get reduced or something?

I still don't have any of the added decks unlocked yet, so I have just the basic four. Maybe there could be a rule, to help with casual games or people who don't know how X deck works because they haven't gotten it yet to play it, that prevents players from using one their opponent hasn't collected?

DeathandDebauchery · July 20

SilverBride wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

ToT having a "each side can reject 1 deck before selecting decks" mechanic would go a LONG way to improving player happiness and engagement.

I suggested something like this here and hope they consider it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687405/we-need-to-be-able-to-block-certain-patrons-from-casual-games#latest

Being able to reject Mora would give me so much happiness I can't even describe. Mora is the most infuriating deck to lose to because of how little of it is skill. My opponent just gets 4 contract cards in a row and its over, even if they have been playing like an absolute ape.

IncultaWolf · July 20

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm on PCNA and it has been very rare for anyone to say anything to the other player.

I used to get a ton of hate whispers when it first came out years ago, now it's usually the same dozen people playing at any given time, and at high level play it usually just comes down to who gets first turn/tavern rng.

I also think a large reason people just stopped whispering anything anymore is after the AI auto ban fiasco; players are just afraid of using game chat in general because why risk losing your account from a salty message?

There have been a few times where I had a close enjoyable match where even if I lost, I wanted to tell the other player gg but they were in offline mode so I couldn't send a whisper.

DeathandDebauchery · July 20

IncultaWolf wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm on PCNA and it has been very rare for anyone to say anything to the other player.

I used to get a ton of hate whispers when it first came out years ago, now it's usually the same dozen people playing at any given time, and at high level play it usually just comes down to who gets first turn/tavern rng.

I also think a large reason people just stopped whispering anything anymore is after the AI auto ban fiasco; players are just afraid of using game chat in general because why risk losing your account from a salty message?

There have been a few times where I had a close enjoyable match where even if I lost, I wanted to tell the other player gg but they were in offline mode so I couldn't send a whisper.

Lot of us that win with a high % play in offline to prevent rage whispers. If I played Raj regularly I would play in Offline 100% of the time. People really rage out over that deck. Me personally, I just like to choose 2 no-power decks against Raj and play a 20 minute game where I eventually bewilderment spam them to death.

SeaGtGruff · July 20

Luneca wrote: »

Tales of Tribute is that serious? Wow. I'm missing out. But I think I'd still rather fire siege.

I'd rather do both, but not necessarily at the same time.

AnduinTryggva · July 20

SilverBride wrote: »

It's very rare that I or my opponent say anything to each other, during or after a game. But yesterday my opponent had a lot to say.

It was a good close game and I think we both played well, but I ended up winning with a score of 82. Immediately they whispered me that there was a flaw with the game and how the game ended abruptly. I explained that if a game keeps going on it will end when the first player reaches 80. They said they know that but I had one more turn than they did and they had 10 points they would have received in their next hand so it wasn't fair.

Then they went on to tell me they had never seen anyone play Ongrum the way I did and I was doing it wrong. By that point I was getting irritated and told them I obviously wasn't playing it wrong because I won. Once again I said they had played well so let's just accept that but they kept going on. I finally just logged for a few minutes to get away from it.

Has anyone else had opponents approach them like this after a game?

I personally still think this 80 kill win is a bad implementation.

I suggested on two occasions a modification to that second threshold:
When one player reaches 80+ points in his turn the other opponent should have ONE attempt to exceed this upon which the first player gets one opportunity to exceed the new score until one player fails to exceed the score. It is easy to implement and would not feel so off.

DeathandDebauchery · July 20

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's very rare that I or my opponent say anything to each other, during or after a game. But yesterday my opponent had a lot to say.

It was a good close game and I think we both played well, but I ended up winning with a score of 82. Immediately they whispered me that there was a flaw with the game and how the game ended abruptly. I explained that if a game keeps going on it will end when the first player reaches 80. They said they know that but I had one more turn than they did and they had 10 points they would have received in their next hand so it wasn't fair.

Then they went on to tell me they had never seen anyone play Ongrum the way I did and I was doing it wrong. By that point I was getting irritated and told them I obviously wasn't playing it wrong because I won. Once again I said they had played well so let's just accept that but they kept going on. I finally just logged for a few minutes to get away from it.

Has anyone else had opponents approach them like this after a game?

I personally still think this 80 kill win is a bad implementation.

I suggested on two occasions a modification to that second threshold:
When one player reaches 80+ points in his turn the other opponent should have ONE attempt to exceed this upon which the first player gets one opportunity to exceed the new score until one player fails to exceed the score. It is easy to implement and would not feel so off.

There are some decks that would result in this extending the game for 20-30+ minutes. There has to be a cutoff, twice the win amount is a relatively fair cutoff point IMO.

DragonRacer · July 20

Sounds like someone being salty and whiny.

I haven't had someone go on and on like that after ToT. I sometimes will get PSN messages (rather than whispers) after a good, close match saying the equivalent of "Good game". Sometimes I have gotten a message from someone wanting to goad afterwards and call names (whether I won or lost). And sometimes I'll get a message or whisper if it's a guildmate and we recognize we got paired up together (like a quick "LOL hi, Dragon!").

I don't generally PvP, so I haven't been subjected to many long ongoing whisper-fests like that. The only time I endured something like that was after I had won a trader bid in a spot a fellow GM was very much not happy about, so they proceeded to whisper and rage at me for a while right after trader flip. That was... such a weird experience. But trading guild bids are a form of PvP, too, I suppose. LOL

Personofsecrets · July 20

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I was pretty surprised by how they just kept going on and on about how unfair it was that I had one more turn than them. I had never seen anything like it in all the time I played ToT.

That's typically what happens when Player 1 wins. Player 1 often has an advantage because of that even in perfectly balanced games like chess. Opponent was a milk drinker.

I find that this happens especially if Player 1 picks Alessia because of the 1st round Alessia spin. There was a (now former?) player that very clearly cooked their scores that used to do this all the time. I wonder if they got banned or just quit when it became clear they couldn't cheat the new ToT timer.

The player you are thinking about stopped playing mid-season as soon as the que timer was updated. They would rank up so fast, that I sometimes wondered if they had another account that they would use for ranking up. I should indicate that I have no evidence of that happening and that I think they are a skilled player.

What makes you think that they were cooking their scores? They stopped choosing Alessia against me after I began to counter with Red Eagle and Saint Pelin. Some amount of time, that combination when going second goofs up the first turn players ability to spam Alessia and let's the 2nd player spam Alessia instead.

Although, I will point out that such play style is awful and make me wonder why the designers would make such an unthoughtful strategy viable. There have been several lolcow players that spank me around with first turn Alessia which is quite funny from the design perspective.

SilverBride · July 20

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I personally still think this 80 kill win is a bad implementation.

I suggested on two occasions a modification to that second threshold:
When one player reaches 80+ points in his turn the other opponent should have ONE attempt to exceed this upon which the first player gets one opportunity to exceed the new score until one player fails to exceed the score. It is easy to implement and would not feel so off.

That suggestion is exactly how the game works now with reaching 40. But they need to put an end point so we don't end up with 2 hour matches.

I know it can be frustrating. I was in such a match once and was only able to reach 79, knowing that this meant my opponent was sure to win. But I accepted it because having a firm ending score is necessary.

Personofsecrets · July 20

SilverBride wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I personally still think this 80 kill win is a bad implementation.

I suggested on two occasions a modification to that second threshold:
When one player reaches 80+ points in his turn the other opponent should have ONE attempt to exceed this upon which the first player gets one opportunity to exceed the new score until one player fails to exceed the score. It is easy to implement and would not feel so off.

That suggestion is exactly how the game works now with reaching 40. But they need to put an end point so we don't end up with 2 hour matches.

I know it can be frustrating. I was in such a match once and was only able to reach 79, knowing that this meant my opponent was sure to win. But I accepted it because having a firm ending score is necessary.

Fun fact: If both players simultaneously get 80 or more prestige, then the turn player is the winner!

SilverBride · July 20

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Fun fact: If both players simultaneously get 80 or more prestige, then the turn player is the winner!

How can this happen?

Elvenheart · July 20

I guess I’m lucky, I never get any rage messages when I win. Of course, I only play npcs so this might be why. 😉

Personofsecrets · July 20

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Fun fact: If both players simultaneously get 80 or more prestige, then the turn player is the winner!

How can this happen?

Player A is Turn player
Player A has 79 Prestige and 6 power.
Player A ends their turn

Player B has Firesong Haruspex
Player B has a 5 Health Chimera
Player B has 79 Prestige

SilverBride · July 20

Personofsecrets wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Fun fact: If both players simultaneously get 80 or more prestige, then the turn player is the winner!

How can this happen?

Player A is Turn player
Player A has 79 Prestige and 6 power.
Player A ends their turn

Player B has Firesong Haruspex
Player B has a 5 Health Chimera
Player B has 79 Prestige

I'm still confused. If Player A is the turn player and they reach 80 then it doesn't matter what Player B has because the game ends before they can play their hand.