Vengeance is very depressing

Scaletho · July 18

I was there 15 min ago. Basically there was 6 guys from one faction and 7 guys in another. Some lost souls appeared once in a while doing... something. Then disappeared and other lost souls popped up occasionally.

The 6 guys kill us and take our keep. 10-15 min later we killed them and get back the keep. Sometimes one resource lit far away in the map (some lost soul doing something). Considering that Vengeance rule of thumb is quite simple (bigger zerg win always) at that particular time the rule was, "somewhat same size zergs kill each other in turns".

Sometimes the 6-7 guys go somewhere and take another keep. Or resource. Or something else.

Then, around 15-20 of silence. Nothing -- literally nothing -- happens in the map.

The "Vengeance levels", after you reach around 50 or little more, demand so much points that get some lame rewards became really a joke. As always, some really enthusiasts has a lot of real life time to waste and level up, others not so much. I was there all this time to collect the "Brutal Gladiator (or Mercenary?)" motif. I got legs, hands, feet, waist. Now I know I'll never reach the head and chest. I'm not masochist that much.

That's it, with very little change since Vengeance day one.

The usual reply from those offended by this kind of rhetoric is, "Don't like it, don't play it". But considering a MMORPG game like ESO, the point is not so simple. Or so dumb.

And considering the state of affairs of ZOS talents lost and diminished numbers of workforce (they are now making a partnership with Bethesda to help hold ESO fort as much as possible) I'm not really making critics here.

BUT (big but by the way) I should say, honestly, today I felt depressed by so sad experience of void, silence, lack of fun, lack of meaning in Vengeance. And I abandoned the campaign.

It's sad to realize how barely interested I'm feeling to play ESO this year, after more than 7 years and more that 11,000 hours of fun playtime. Maybe I'm too old "ESOist" and it's time to retire.

Oh well. Let's see. I'll give it until this year's end to decide. Then, I'll see.

requiem31 · July 18

Get used to it, honestly. This is the PvP experience they're pushing, delete negative threads, and removing comments that agree. They've been collecting data for half a decade now, going back to the AoE tests, and haven't made a single change with it. The people who've stuck around this long stuck around for Gray Host. Keep taking that away, and they won't stick around much longer.

LadyGP · July 18

In before another thread gets deleted.

The supression of the vengence dislike is very apparent and.... it's abold choice for Zeni community team to take...

Don't ask for feedback then mass delete threads that have all the feedback you could ever want for vengence and why no one plays/likes it.

- xCatGuy

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · July 18

Scaletho wrote: »

I was there 15 min ago. Basically there was 6 guys from one faction and 7 guys in another. Some lost souls appeared once in a while doing... something. Then disappeared and other lost souls popped up occasionally.

The 6 guys kill us and take our keep. 10-15 min later we killed them and get back the keep. Sometimes one resource lit far away in the map (some lost soul doing something). Considering that Vengeance rule of thumb is quite simple (bigger zerg win always) at that particular time the rule was, "somewhat same size zergs kill each other in turns".

Sometimes the 6-7 guys go somewhere and take another keep. Or resource. Or something else.

Then, around 15-20 of silence. Nothing -- literally nothing -- happens in the map.

The "Vengeance levels", after you reach around 50 or little more, demand so much points that get some lame rewards became really a joke. As always, some really enthusiasts has a lot of real life time to waste and level up, others not so much. I was there all this time to collect the "Brutal Gladiator (or Mercenary?)" motif. I got legs, hands, feet, waist. Now I know I'll never reach the head and chest. I'm not masochist that much.

That's it, with very little change since Vengeance day one.

The usual reply from those offended by this kind of rhetoric is, "Don't like it, don't play it". But considering a MMORPG game like ESO, the point is not so simple. Or so dumb.

And considering the state of affairs of ZOS talents lost and diminished numbers of workforce (they are now making a partnership with Bethesda to help hold ESO fort as much as possible) I'm not really making critics here.

BUT (big but by the way) I should say, honestly, today I felt depressed by so sad experience of void, silence, lack of fun, lack of meaning in Vengeance. And I abandoned the campaign.

It's sad to realize how barely interested I'm feeling to play ESO this year, after more than 7 years and more that 11,000 hours of fun playtime. Maybe I'm too old "ESOist" and it's time to retire.

Oh well. Let's see. I'll give it until this year's end to decide. Then, I'll see.

Sadly, I think this sentiment is becoming increasingly common.

Many of us didn't spend years in ESO PvP because of Vengeance. We stayed because of Gray Host and traditional Cyrodiil. Repeatedly removing that experience to push a ruleset many players simply do not enjoy is only accelerating burnout and pushing long-time players away from the game.

What makes it even worse is the growing feeling that dissent itself is being suppressed. Threads expressing opposition to these tests or encouraging players to peacefully voice their discontent through non-participation are seemingly being removed, which only further alienates the Gray Host playerbase.

Eventually people stop getting angry and simply stop logging in. That is the stage I fear many players are beginning to reach. And once players with thousands of hours invested start quietly moving on, getting them back is far harder than listening to them in the first place.

LadyGP · July 18

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Scaletho wrote: »

I was there 15 min ago. Basically there was 6 guys from one faction and 7 guys in another. Some lost souls appeared once in a while doing... something. Then disappeared and other lost souls popped up occasionally.

The 6 guys kill us and take our keep. 10-15 min later we killed them and get back the keep. Sometimes one resource lit far away in the map (some lost soul doing something). Considering that Vengeance rule of thumb is quite simple (bigger zerg win always) at that particular time the rule was, "somewhat same size zergs kill each other in turns".

Sometimes the 6-7 guys go somewhere and take another keep. Or resource. Or something else.

Then, around 15-20 of silence. Nothing -- literally nothing -- happens in the map.

The "Vengeance levels", after you reach around 50 or little more, demand so much points that get some lame rewards became really a joke. As always, some really enthusiasts has a lot of real life time to waste and level up, others not so much. I was there all this time to collect the "Brutal Gladiator (or Mercenary?)" motif. I got legs, hands, feet, waist. Now I know I'll never reach the head and chest. I'm not masochist that much.

That's it, with very little change since Vengeance day one.

The usual reply from those offended by this kind of rhetoric is, "Don't like it, don't play it". But considering a MMORPG game like ESO, the point is not so simple. Or so dumb.

And considering the state of affairs of ZOS talents lost and diminished numbers of workforce (they are now making a partnership with Bethesda to help hold ESO fort as much as possible) I'm not really making critics here.

BUT (big but by the way) I should say, honestly, today I felt depressed by so sad experience of void, silence, lack of fun, lack of meaning in Vengeance. And I abandoned the campaign.

It's sad to realize how barely interested I'm feeling to play ESO this year, after more than 7 years and more that 11,000 hours of fun playtime. Maybe I'm too old "ESOist" and it's time to retire.

Oh well. Let's see. I'll give it until this year's end to decide. Then, I'll see.

Sadly, I think this sentiment is becoming increasingly common.

Many of us didn't spend years in ESO PvP because of Vengeance. We stayed because of Gray Host and traditional Cyrodiil. Repeatedly removing that experience to push a ruleset many players simply do not enjoy is only accelerating burnout and pushing long-time players away from the game.

What makes it even worse is the growing feeling that dissent itself is being suppressed. Threads expressing opposition to these tests or encouraging players to peacefully voice their discontent through non-participation are seemingly being removed, which only further alienates the Gray Host playerbase.

Eventually people stop getting angry and simply stop logging in. That is the stage I fear many players are beginning to reach. And once players with thousands of hours invested start quietly moving on, getting them back is far harder than listening to them in the first place.

I, in fact, have stopped logging in.. and so have a lot of people I play daily with.

DenverRalphy · July 18

Players can give all the negative feedback they wish. These forums contain many posts that do just that.

Just keep it within the bounds of the forum rules. ie.. Don't initiate a call for protest as that will get slapped down in a heartbeat.

BardokRedSnow · July 18

Deleting threads isnt gonna keep Big Asha from noticing the player drop from the tests.

LadyGP · July 18

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Players can give all the negative feedback they wish. These forums contain many posts that do just that.

Just keep it within the bounds of the forum rules. ie.. Don't initiate a call for protest as that will get slapped down in a heartbeat.

Oh, I forgot we are only allowed to "protest" on the forums if it's to stick it to big bad Microsoft.

- xCatGuy

DenverRalphy · July 18

LadyGP wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Players can give all the negative feedback they wish. The se forums contain many posts that do just that.

Just keep it within the bounds of the forum rules. ie.. Don't initiate a call for protest as that will get slapped down in a heartbeat.

Oh, I forgot we are only allowed to "protest" on the forums if it's to stick it to big bad Microsoft.

- xCatGuy

By all means, if you see a post doing just that, feel free to report it.

:shrug:

Sylosi · July 18

Vengeance is bad, but then so is Cyrodiil (and IC, BGs, etc), which is why very few people are left playing it and most of them aren't really PvP'ers. If you value decent PvP (AKA - a PvPer), then this game has been dead in that regard for a long time.

Frayton · July 18

ZOS is the only one who knows the true metrics for Vengeance's participation, but I think an inference can be confidently made that the OP's experience isn't isolated.

LadyGP wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Players can give all the negative feedback they wish. These forums contain many posts that do just that.

Just keep it within the bounds of the forum rules. ie.. Don't initiate a call for protest as that will get slapped down in a heartbeat.

Oh, I forgot we are only allowed to "protest" on the forums if it's to stick it to big bad Microsoft.

- xCatGuy

I was just thinking that. There were threads and posts that are still up about signing petitions against MS and rallies to throw more money at MS that were front and center for days on this forum.

amiiegee · July 18

Scaletho wrote: »

I was there 15 min ago. Basically there was 6 guys from one faction and 7 guys in another. Some lost souls appeared once in a while doing... something. Then disappeared and other lost souls popped up occasionally.

The 6 guys kill us and take our keep. 10-15 min later we killed them and get back the keep. Sometimes one resource lit far away in the map (some lost soul doing something). Considering that Vengeance rule of thumb is quite simple (bigger zerg win always) at that particular time the rule was, "somewhat same size zergs kill each other in turns".

Sometimes the 6-7 guys go somewhere and take another keep. Or resource. Or something else.

Then, around 15-20 of silence. Nothing -- literally nothing -- happens in the map.

The "Vengeance levels", after you reach around 50 or little more, demand so much points that get some lame rewards became really a joke. As always, some really enthusiasts has a lot of real life time to waste and level up, others not so much. I was there all this time to collect the "Brutal Gladiator (or Mercenary?)" motif. I got legs, hands, feet, waist. Now I know I'll never reach the head and chest. I'm not masochist that much.

That's it, with very little change since Vengeance day one.

The usual reply from those offended by this kind of rhetoric is, "Don't like it, don't play it". But considering a MMORPG game like ESO, the point is not so simple. Or so dumb.

And considering the state of affairs of ZOS talents lost and diminished numbers of workforce (they are now making a partnership with Bethesda to help hold ESO fort as much as possible) I'm not really making critics here.

BUT (big but by the way) I should say, honestly, today I felt depressed by so sad experience of void, silence, lack of fun, lack of meaning in Vengeance. And I abandoned the campaign.

It's sad to realize how barely interested I'm feeling to play ESO this year, after more than 7 years and more that 11,000 hours of fun playtime. Maybe I'm too old "ESOist" and it's time to retire.

Oh well. Let's see. I'll give it until this year's end to decide. Then, I'll see.

People don’t like vengeance, are we surprised?

amiiegee · July 18

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691763/suprise-people-dont-like-vengeance/p1

Luneca · July 18

All I know is that I am not logging in next week except to look at the tome. No point because Vengeance is pointless.

LadyGP · July 19

Luneca wrote: »

All I know is that I am not logging in next week except to look at the tome. No point because Vengeance is pointless.

Ah, the fomo gotcha?

I'm curious how many people log into games now a days just to "do the thing" (FOMO thing) then log out.

Remember when we used to login to games and actually want to play? Now games just feel like a second job. Sigh.

- xCatGuy

Luneca · July 19

LadyGP wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

All I know is that I am not logging in next week except to look at the tome. No point because Vengeance is pointless.

Ah, the fomo gotcha?

I'm curious how many people log into games now a days just to "do the thing" (FOMO thing) then log out.

Remember when we used to login to games and actually want to play? Now games just feel like a second job. Sigh.

- xCatGuy

No. I only log in to fire siege. If I can't change the tome to to valid challenges I can complete by firing siege, i'll skip them and just go fire siege.I won't fire siege in Vengeance though.

SeaGtGruff · July 19

I occasionally encounter enemy groups of 12 or more-- sometimes 20 or more-- when playing in Vengeance, but the time of day has a big influence on how many players I see from each alliance, because it seems like each alliance has its own peak hours during the day. There are times when I see only a few players of any given alliance, my own included. It's hard to know how many players are on, unless you happen to join a group from your own alliance or run into a group of enemies, but even then you're just seeing the players in your area, so it's hard to know how many might be in other areas of the map.

I nearly always had that same experience in Gray Host back when it was my Home campaign-- that is, before Vengeance went permanently live and I made Vengeance my Home campaign on a trial basis. Sometimes the alliances would seem to be more or less balanced-- at least as far as how many bars were displayed-- but other times there would be a clear predominance of a particular alliance and the other two were outnumbered (again, in terms of bars). As with Vengeance, the time of day seemed to be the biggest factor with how the population sizes fluctuated.

Gray Host appears to be more active (as far as population bars and locks) since Vengeance went permanently live than it was back when it was my Home campaign. But prior to that, my experiences in Gray Host were a lot like my current experiences in Vengeance, meaning sometimes there would be a lot of other players in my alliance, but at other times there would be only a few on in my alliance (as far as I could see) and it was utterly miserable trying to attack or defend anything. Throughout the day the map would go from being mostly blue to mostly red, then to mostly yellow, depending on which alliance outnumbered the others. And apparently I usually play at times of the day when my alliance is outnumbered, because there were plenty of nights when I would queue into Gray Host, only to end up queuing into Imperial City instead out of frustration. My experience might be different if I were to try Gray Host now, but I haven't set foot there since changing my Home campaign to Vengeance when it went live-- not that I don't enjoy Gray Host, because I do; but I want to give Vengeance a fair chance before deciding whether or not to switch back to Gray Host.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · July 19

Vengeance is a good thing. After 11 years of the constant cycle of destruction of our gear and characters from GH, it's far beyond time for something else. Just because you refuse to play it doesn't mean others do not like it. Or that new players won't play it. Or that Vets wont return to it. They are.

They're attempting to do things everyone from GH wouldn't stop complaining about for years on end (other than nerf everyone else so they can win. And only they can win). And that is, a bigger population, better performance and balance just to name a few.

And rather than release it in a rapid problematic state to achieve these things, theyre starting over from the ground up on the live server with input and feedback that can reach everyone in the entire game, not just PTS and not just PC. And not just the small pond of self proclaimed experts in GH. No one knows more about it than Zos themselves. No one. The same is true with the feedback, actual performance reports and true population numbers. For the entire history of Cyrodiil.

They've already stated GH can't be fixed. And theyre attempting to solve even that problem and yet so many of the same people who want to sabotage it, see it removed or try to silence the rest of the Eso population about it, refuse to even accept those things or actually do what the developers have deemed the best course of action to solve them.

They're trying to incorporate more of the Eso population into PvP and also find a way to fit people who do PvP a lot into one small place. And it is too small in its current state for cross platform. It wont work.

If you run 60 or 70 BG in a row, you will see it is a small population of the same people. The same people who drove everyone off with cheap exploits and ball groups. And who gatekeep and dissuade new players. And if you play GH enough, you will see, its the same small group of people.

I dont blame them for shutting down threads that call for boycotting, silencing or otherwise attempting to label Vengeance players as uninformed, not good enough to have a say about PvP, strictly PvE or simply not good enough to play the game, ect. That is not in any way true at all. And its attempting to gatekeep and divert players who would otherwise participate in PvP. Or those same people concluding that it's toxic after the fact, and it is. Vengeance is PvP. It is not some entry level campaign that exists only for new or inexperienced players or Guilds.

I have been playing this game since day 1. I have been with the Vengeance Campaign since it was made permanent. And in previous iterations of it. Vengeance is a much needed change. There are literally thousands of people in my Guilds who have left the game entirely or who have refused to even consider any form of PvP for many of the reasons I have discussed above. And more. It is a much more fair and balanced Cyrodiil even in its current state than anything that has ever or is going on in GH. If you dont think thats true, Ill gladly take my Warden back without the prohibitive targeting to my Bear, its Class Passive and the removed Shattered Path mythic. And yes, I am a Warden Main. And yes, I was taking down DKs and Werewolves.

It is not depressing to see my Guild members returning to PvP. They are only doing so because of Vengeance. It is not depressing to see new players in my Guilds express interest in actually standing a chance on the battlefield after repeatedly getting 1 shotted 60 times in BG and GH. Or being told to just repair walls. Or receiving whispers, foul language or other forms of reprisal self proclaimed experts think is appropriate. It is not appropriate. It is not depressing to see a few of the many 11 year players who left actually return to help attempt to shape a better future for PvP. And they are.

Zos is finally doing the right thing and starting to listen to the majority of the game population and taking back control of their own PvP. That includes the game population outside of BG and GH. For too long, they have had little or no say about it and that is finally starting to change.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · July 19

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Vengeance is a good thing. After 11 years of the constant cycle of destruction of our gear and characters from GH, it's far beyond time for something else. Just because you refuse to play it doesn't mean others do not like it. Or that new players won't play it. Or that Vets wont return to it. They are.

They're attempting to do things everyone from GH wouldn't stop complaining about for years on end (other than nerf everyone else so they can win. And only they can win). And that is, a bigger population, better performance and balance just to name a few.

And rather than release it in a rapid problematic state to achieve these things, theyre starting over from the ground up on the live server with input and feedback that can reach everyone in the entire game, not just PTS and not just PC. And not just the small pond of self proclaimed experts in GH. No one knows more about it than Zos themselves. No one. The same is true with the feedback, actual performance reports and true population numbers. For the entire history of Cyrodiil.

They've already stated GH can't be fixed. And theyre attempting to solve even that problem and yet so many of the same people who want to sabotage it, see it removed or try to silence the rest of the Eso population about it, refuse to even accept those things or actually do what the developers have deemed the best course of action to solve them.

They're trying to incorporate more of the Eso population into PvP and also find a way to fit people who do PvP a lot into one small place. And it is too small in its current state for cross platform. It wont work.

If you run 60 or 70 BG in a row, you will see it is a small population of the same people. The same people who drove everyone off with cheap exploits and ball groups. And who gatekeep and dissuade new players. And if you play GH enough, you will see, its the same small group of people.

I dont blame them for shutting down threads that call for boycotting, silencing or otherwise attempting to label Vengeance players as uninformed, not good enough to have a say about PvP, strictly PvE or simply not good enough to play the game, ect. That is not in any way true at all. And its attempting to gatekeep and divert players who would otherwise participate in PvP. Or those same people concluding that it's toxic after the fact, and it is. Vengeance is PvP. It is not some entry level campaign that exists only for new or inexperienced players or Guilds.

I have been playing this game since day 1. I have been with the Vengeance Campaign since it was made permanent. And in previous iterations of it. Vengeance is a much needed change. There are literally thousands of people in my Guilds who have left the game entirely or who have refused to even consider any form of PvP for many of the reasons I have discussed above. And more. It is a much more fair and balanced Cyrodiil even in its current state than anything that has ever or is going on in GH. If you dont think thats true, Ill gladly take my Warden back without the prohibitive targeting to my Bear, its Class Passive and the removed Shattered Path mythic. And yes, I am a Warden Main. And yes, I was taking down DKs and Werewolves.

It is not depressing to see my Guild members returning to PvP. They are only doing so because of Vengeance. It is not depressing to see new players in my Guilds express interest in actually standing a chance on the battlefield after repeatedly getting 1 shotted 60 times in BG and GH. Or being told to just repair walls. Or receiving whispers, foul language or other forms of reprisal self proclaimed experts think is appropriate. It is not appropriate. It is not depressing to see a few of the many 11 year players who left actually return to help attempt to shape a better future for PvP. And they are.

Zos is finally doing the right thing and starting to listen to the majority of the game population and taking back control of their own PvP. That includes the game population outside of BG and GH. For too long, they have had little or no say about it and that is finally starting to change.

Where is your guild filling regular non-mandatory test vengeance? It isn’t, you’re not a PvPer, you don’t PvP regularly on the server designed for you, so you don’t get to say whether shutting down the form of PvP gray host players enjoy is a good thing or not.

Vengeance is dead because the people that the campaign is supposed to be designed for don’t even play it. Once again the gray host population is the only thing keeping open world PvP alive and the developers should at the very least have the decency to keep the product the payed for active.

Eldovar · July 19

LadyGP wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

All I know is that I am not logging in next week except to look at the tome. No point because Vengeance is pointless.

Ah, the fomo gotcha?

I'm curious how many people log into games now a days just to "do the thing" (FOMO thing) then log out.

Remember when we used to login to games and actually want to play? Now games just feel like a second job. Sigh.

- xCatGuy

You’re absolutely right about this. I used to be the same way: logging in just to tick off a few tasks and grab cosmetic item number 1236 that I’d never actually use. I did the same thing in single‑player games too, chasing every “?” on the map just so I could get that 100% completion checkmark, like an overeager school kid hunting for 'achievements' or finally unlock that item that didn’t even fit my playstyle.

These days I just do what I enjoy, finish the story, and move on. Gaming is way more fun again.

This is also why I am still lamenting for the loss of zones and dungeons. I enjoy that the most of ESO and I am running out of content.

Luneca · July 19

Eldovar wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

All I know is that I am not logging in next week except to look at the tome. No point because Vengeance is pointless.

Ah, the fomo gotcha?

I'm curious how many people log into games now a days just to "do the thing" (FOMO thing) then log out.

Remember when we used to login to games and actually want to play? Now games just feel like a second job. Sigh.

- xCatGuy

You’re absolutely right about this. I used to be the same way: logging in just to tick off a few tasks and grab cosmetic item number 1236 that I’d never actually use. I did the same thing in single‑player games too, chasing every “?” on the map just so I could get that 100% completion checkmark, like an overeager school kid hunting for 'achievements' or finally unlock that item that didn’t even fit my playstyle.

These days I just do what I enjoy, finish the story, and move on. Gaming is way more fun again.

This is also why I am still lamenting for the loss of zones and dungeons. I enjoy that the most of ESO and I am running out of content.

Yeah the "content" we've gotten since they've changed gears doesn't appeal to me at all. I try it, don't like it, and then just go fire siege in Gray Host or log.

It's not helping that the game is extremely buggy, even the server malfunctions all the time this patch. Half the time I can't see people rendering in Cyrodiil after the last patch. It's not an enjoyable experience all around due to those issues, and really, the game devs need to take a look at the bugs being reported in this patch because some of them literally stop you from logging in.

ToddIngram · July 19

Surprised they're letting this thread remain. Seems more threads been removed in last few days than created.

katanagirl1 · July 19

Luneca wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

All I know is that I am not logging in next week except to look at the tome. No point because Vengeance is pointless.

Ah, the fomo gotcha?

I'm curious how many people log into games now a days just to "do the thing" (FOMO thing) then log out.

Remember when we used to login to games and actually want to play? Now games just feel like a second job. Sigh.

- xCatGuy

No. I only log in to fire siege. If I can't change the tome to to valid challenges I can complete by firing siege, i'll skip them and just go fire siege.I won't fire siege in Vengeance though.

Well, if you did it would only be one siege, lol.

ceruulean · July 19

News at 5: player joins a campaign, thinks it's dead because there's not enough people, logs off

If you want to socialize with people then stick to PvE. If you want to fight then stay and fight. You'll have the same problem in GH because the low population is a problem in every campaign.

React · July 19

OP's experience are very similar to what I saw the two times I've queued into vengeance since it became permanent. I think there are many commenters missing the point.

Vengeance's entire reason to exist is to promote "large scale battles and high population caps". That is it. It is there for them to perform tests and figure out how far they can go while keeping these high population caps and allowing for these "large scale battles" before the performance takes a dive. It's not there to provide a noob/beginner friendly PVP-Lite environment for casual players to enjoy, even if that is the current reality of it.

The issue is that ESO PVP already doesn't have a ton of players, and there are even fewer who want to participate in the vengeance environment, because for many of us that environment strips away the things we love about eso pvp - build craft, character identity, the value of our game and mechanical knowledge, etc.

The end result is we now have the stripped down campaign that nobody wants to play, which exists to allow for a population that simply is not present. Even if you took every single player playing/waiting in queue for GH on a friday night and every single player in blackreach - I don't think you would actually reach the population cap that vengeance has.

So the question becomes, "why bother?". Why continue investing all this time and all these resources into this thing that really cannot justify it's existence in the first place? Why work towards an environment that very well might replace Grey Host (albeit in a different form than it's taken now), if you are going to alienate so many PVP players doing it that it is almost guaranteed to remain empty? It feels like a very poor decision at a time where they really cannot afford to make poor decisions.

If anything, they should be working backwards from the live Grey Host environment. Turn off the mail again in cyrodiil. Turn off guild notifications. Turn off healing outside of your group. Rework any set that causes many calculations - Plague, maras, etc. Remove Volendrung. Take steps to address the egregious cross healing, shield stacking, buff set stacking, etc that is responsible for the never-ending fights which undoubtedly cause the performance to bog down. Aim for a population cap 50-100% higher than the current cap, instead of one 300% higher like vengeance is trying to achieve. Think there would be a lot more people open to doing this kind of testing compared to those willing to participate in the nonsense that is vengeance.

NovelliESO · July 19

React wrote: »

OP's experience are very similar to what I saw the two times I've queued into vengeance since it became permanent. I think there are many commenters missing the point.

Vengeance's entire reason to exist is to promote "large scale battles and high population caps". That is it. It is there for them to perform tests and figure out how far they can go while keeping these high population caps and allowing for these "large scale battles" before the performance takes a dive. It's not there to provide a noob/beginner friendly PVP-Lite environment for casual players to enjoy, even if that is the current reality of it.

The issue is that ESO PVP already doesn't have a ton of players, and there are even fewer who want to participate in the vengeance environment, because for many of us that environment strips away the things we love about eso pvp - build craft, character identity, the value of our game and mechanical knowledge, etc.

The end result is we now have the stripped down campaign that nobody wants to play, which exists to allow for a population that simply is not present. Even if you took every single player playing/waiting in queue for GH on a friday night and every single player in blackreach - I don't think you would actually reach the population cap that vengeance has.

So the question becomes, "why bother?". Why continue investing all this time and all these resources into this thing that really cannot justify it's existence in the first place? Why work towards an environment that very well might replace Grey Host (albeit in a different form than it's taken now), if you are going to alienate so many PVP players doing it that it is almost guaranteed to remain empty? It feels like a very poor decision at a time where they really cannot afford to make poor decisions.

If anything, they should be working backwards from the live Grey Host environment. Turn off the mail again in cyrodiil. Turn off guild notifications. Turn off healing outside of your group. Rework any set that causes many calculations - Plague, maras, etc. Remove Volendrung. Take steps to address the egregious cross healing, shield stacking, buff set stacking, etc that is responsible for the never-ending fights which undoubtedly cause the performance to bog down. Aim for a population cap 50-100% higher than the current cap, instead of one 300% higher like vengeance is trying to achieve. Think there would be a lot more people open to doing this kind of testing compared to those willing to participate in the nonsense that is vengeance.

I posed in another thread but there are an infinite number of ways to lessen the strain on the server in the current state of GH. Volendrung is the biggest cause of lag, and obviously not because of the weapon itself, but because it attracts every single player to one area. A spread out fight of 10v10 on four separate corners of the map is much easier on the server than a single 40v40. Infinite ressing, or access to it while in combat can create a sometimes endless fight that causes huge strain on the server because for whatever reason the effects continue rolling and in combat bug keeps whatever is on your character there for some undisclosed amount of time.

We can remove some of the guards from the server that don't really do anything, ones they aren't even near keeps, as well as updating some of their abilities to not be as buggy as they are. Siege can be changed so that it has less strain on the server, all the ground effects in big fights are costly. Cross healing outside of group should be removed, and should have been removed with the latest change that applies a debuff of 33%.

If you are already going to lock every single person out of GH for an entire week, you can even do things I wouldn't recommend, but being that you're doing something 100x worse it should be met with less hate. Turn off certain sets, turn off multiple sets, do 2-3 days long tests and compare results. Turn off a new set every few days. This is a much better option than closing the server entirely, and you wouldn't need to funnel people anywhere, they would still log into GH. Just, a month before, put out a schedule of every single set that will be tested, it would probably get great results for what you are trying to find out as the issue with the server.

Stamicka · July 20

Yea I’d have to agree really. As of now it is not fun. ZOS never adjusted the healing, the health pools, the time to kill, the lack of snare removals and the movement speed. Hard AOE caps remain in place and skills are still extremely bland. I can’t see any veteran PvPer enjoying it as it is right now. I’ve tried it with friends and we all had similar complaints.

I just want an environment where set choice is heavily reduced, subclassing is banned, and the gameplay is bursty with a manageable TTK. I also want an environment without hybridization. Interesting skills are a must as well.

Ravenwatch came close, but they never released a set list and they allowed Pariah when nothing existed to counter it in that environment. It also allowed Oakensoul.

My hopes were that ZOS would come to the realization that PvP was both more popular and more performant in the past and then bring an old school ESO feel to PvP through Vengeance. It was a long shot, but it’s looking increasingly unlikely. I’m going to show up for these tests, but I’m really hoping that ZOS doesn’t continue down the path of adding sets to Vengeance permanently. Then my hopes are truly dead.

kafedristoran · July 20

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Vengeance is a good thing. After 11 years of the constant cycle of destruction of our gear and characters from GH, it's far beyond time for something else. Just because you refuse to play it doesn't mean others do not like it. Or that new players won't play it. Or that Vets wont return to it. They are.

They're attempting to do things everyone from GH wouldn't stop complaining about for years on end (other than nerf everyone else so they can win. And only they can win). And that is, a bigger population, better performance and balance just to name a few.

And rather than release it in a rapid problematic state to achieve these things, theyre starting over from the ground up on the live server with input and feedback that can reach everyone in the entire game, not just PTS and not just PC. And not just the small pond of self proclaimed experts in GH. No one knows more about it than Zos themselves. No one. The same is true with the feedback, actual performance reports and true population numbers. For the entire history of Cyrodiil.

They've already stated GH can't be fixed. And theyre attempting to solve even that problem and yet so many of the same people who want to sabotage it, see it removed or try to silence the rest of the Eso population about it, refuse to even accept those things or actually do what the developers have deemed the best course of action to solve them.

They're trying to incorporate more of the Eso population into PvP and also find a way to fit people who do PvP a lot into one small place. And it is too small in its current state for cross platform. It wont work.

If you run 60 or 70 BG in a row, you will see it is a small population of the same people. The same people who drove everyone off with cheap exploits and ball groups. And who gatekeep and dissuade new players. And if you play GH enough, you will see, its the same small group of people.

I dont blame them for shutting down threads that call for boycotting, silencing or otherwise attempting to label Vengeance players as uninformed, not good enough to have a say about PvP, strictly PvE or simply not good enough to play the game, ect. That is not in any way true at all. And its attempting to gatekeep and divert players who would otherwise participate in PvP. Or those same people concluding that it's toxic after the fact, and it is. Vengeance is PvP. It is not some entry level campaign that exists only for new or inexperienced players or Guilds.

I have been playing this game since day 1. I have been with the Vengeance Campaign since it was made permanent. And in previous iterations of it. Vengeance is a much needed change. There are literally thousands of people in my Guilds who have left the game entirely or who have refused to even consider any form of PvP for many of the reasons I have discussed above. And more. It is a much more fair and balanced Cyrodiil even in its current state than anything that has ever or is going on in GH. If you dont think thats true, Ill gladly take my Warden back without the prohibitive targeting to my Bear, its Class Passive and the removed Shattered Path mythic. And yes, I am a Warden Main. And yes, I was taking down DKs and Werewolves.

It is not depressing to see my Guild members returning to PvP. They are only doing so because of Vengeance. It is not depressing to see new players in my Guilds express interest in actually standing a chance on the battlefield after repeatedly getting 1 shotted 60 times in BG and GH. Or being told to just repair walls. Or receiving whispers, foul language or other forms of reprisal self proclaimed experts think is appropriate. It is not appropriate. It is not depressing to see a few of the many 11 year players who left actually return to help attempt to shape a better future for PvP. And they are.

Zos is finally doing the right thing and starting to listen to the majority of the game population and taking back control of their own PvP. That includes the game population outside of BG and GH. For too long, they have had little or no say about it and that is finally starting to change.

[snip] dreams of the toxic casual about how to alienate pvp players from the game and remove from the game the last bit of content related to pvp
[edited for inappropriate content]

IncultaWolf · July 20

If item sets/procs are added to Venegance I don't think I will ever step foot in there again.

WaywardArgonian · July 20

It is the same story as with non-proc. That game mode got some traction and some people were very vocal about how much they loved it, but when push came to shove and the honeymoon effect wore off, it turned out to be far less popular than the regular PVP we already had.

Kiash · July 20

Honestly reading over this thread, I understand why they are making bad decisions. Every person in here wants something different out of Cyrodiil and ESO PvP. Banning sets? Eliminate cross healing? These sound terrible to me. Character identity is huge for me, and I play a healer main. That's effectively just telling me to stop playing the game if you remove cross heal tbh.