"You're showing potential as a thief!" Quen, we joined at the same time...

LittleBlueWraith · July 15

I don't have a problem with wanting the new Thieves Guild questline to be available for all, regardless of whether or not they did the original... But as someone who DID do the original, the fact that Quen treats me like I'm some unproven newbie is extremely jarring. Especially since I got the introductory quest from her, in the Hew's Bane Thieves Den. The one or two token dialogue options at the start that acknowledge that history just makes it stand out even more. Not that this is a new issue with ESO, but given that this new questline is explicitly a sequel to the old one, it just seems so much worse than other examples (my high elf being called "newcomer" in Summerset was the highlight for me for the longest time).

And not for nothing, (spoilers for dlc that's almost as old as the game itself),

but it wasn't Quen who stepped in as acting guildmaster when Zeira was arrested, was it?

Zoidsberg · July 15

Every single update has posts complaining that the dialogue is jarring and inconsistent. This game has a lot of strengths but writing is not one of them.

IZZEFlameLash · July 15

Dialogue trying to cast the widest net possible to save the cost prob. Not everyone would've started with the first TG questline after all.

spartaxoxo · July 15

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Dialogue trying to cast the widest net possible to save the cost prob. Not everyone would've started with the first TG questline after all.

"You're good at this," would have cast a wider net without continuity issues.

BretonMage · July 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Dialogue trying to cast the widest net possible to save the cost prob. Not everyone would've started with the first TG questline after all.

"You're good at this," would have cast a wider net without continuity issues.

Tbf some of us really suck at stealthing.

Edit: I do think that it's not easy to write for a game with such diverse player characters, with different goals, different roleplays, and at different stages of progression and experience.

Gagoimaliu · July 15

The new questline isn't even that tied to the old one, apart from some optional mentioning of Zeira and asking "How's the gang" at the beginning, the new one could have had entirely new characters and it would have went the same. I really don't get why it was marketed as a SEQUEL

Apart from the ending with the reveal of why Quen's warrant was set up (Returning us to Hew's Bane) that at least does have more background if you did the first questline

frogthroat · July 15

When you fly somewhere, and you land at your destination, the crew welcomes you to the new place. The crew that was with you on the plane and arrived exactly at the same time as you.

SwordOfSagas · July 15

And at the end of big story quests there's always the ''We'' saved Nirn. NPC's always taking the credit lol.

tomofhyrule · July 15

SwordOfSagas wrote: »

And at the end of big story quests there's always the ''We'' saved Nirn. NPC's always taking the credit lol.

The worst one of those for me was Elsweyr.

“Oh no, a dragon’s attacking Riverhold! We need to stop it!”
And then I fight this big lizard all by myself while Khamira sits in the corner with her army and just talks for a while. And as soon as it goes down, then she gets up and says that she’s the rightful queen and everyone makes a huge deal about her and totally ignores me.
…uhh, did nobody see the dragon I just killed? Solo.

Kiash · July 15

The dialogue worked great for me, but only because I never did the original Thieves guild quest line. The part that sends you to Hew's Bane to meet with Zeira or whatever flows together great....If you've never done ANY of it before and you START in Glenumbra. I got lucky by doing it this way tbh, but I don't think I'm in the majority here being a returning player.

AzuraFan · July 15

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at that. Quen must have amnesia or something.

BretonMage wrote: »

I do think that it's not easy to write for a game with such diverse player characters, with different goals, different roleplays, and at different stages of progression and experience.

It shouldn't be difficult for them to check whether the character has finished the last quest in the original thieves guild questline. They do that sort of thing in other places.

oddarin · July 15

As much as I dislike Solstice, there was one really cool thing - dialogs with npc might change depending on previous quests you've accomplished. So we saw it is possible to do, which leads to the question of what prevented them from doing the same thing again and wrote slightly different variants for those who completed TG questline and those who not. I don't believe that is so much to check

BretonMage · July 15

AzuraFan wrote: »

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at that. Quen must have amnesia or something.

BretonMage wrote: »

I do think that it's not easy to write for a game with such diverse player characters, with different goals, different roleplays, and at different stages of progression and experience.

It shouldn't be difficult for them to check whether the character has finished the last quest in the original thieves guild questline. They do that sort of thing in other places.

That's true, though they might have felt it wasn't worth bothering with for a throwaway line. I do appreciate it when characters remember who we are, all too often I agree we get treated like idiots who don't know our own cultural history, or who need to have things within our chosen expertise explained to us. Like how my sorcerer gets magic explained to her constantly.

virtus753 · July 15

frogthroat wrote: »

When you fly somewhere, and you land at your destination, the crew welcomes you to the new place. The crew that was with you on the plane and arrived exactly at the same time as you.

But they don’t explicitly make remarks based on an assumption you’ve never flown before. They know they have an audience with a variety of experiences.

In this case our flight attendant seems to have forgotten how many times we’ve worked with her and thinks it’s our first flight.

AScarlato · July 15

Kiash wrote: »

The dialogue worked great for me, but only because I never did the original Thieves guild quest line. The part that sends you to Hew's Bane to meet with Zeira or whatever flows together great....If you've never done ANY of it before and you START in Glenumbra. I got lucky by doing it this way tbh, but I don't think I'm in the majority here being a returning player.

But then what happens if you want to do Hew's Bane? Would that not make any sense as it would have Quen back as being new and haven't even joined yet?

I haven't tried this so wondering if they changed anything if you had done Glenumbra first. I'm assuming not, hence it being a sequel.

Maythor · July 15

You get an OOC warning if you attempt to do the quests out of order (Glenumbra quests before the Hew's Bane ones), so you do that at your own risk. You should expect some continuity if you do them in order.

AScarlato · July 15

Maythor wrote: »

You get an OOC warning if you attempt to do the quests out of order (Glenumbra quests before the Hew's Bane ones), so you do that at your own risk. You should expect some continuity if you do them in order.

Thanks for the info. So...according to what I'm gathering from posters above, the quest dialogue works best if you haven't done Hew's Bane...

It seems if they added a warning then instead it should have catered more to those who did already do it.

GibbsieUK · July 15

The writing sucks now. You also have those really bad attempts at dialogue that is flirty/not flirty, jovial/aggressive (not that there is that much difference between them anyway. Even the more aggressive style seems cartoon-like and jokey). Just because other games back in the day (and BG3 now) DID have dialogue choices which had an impact on how characters viewed you, doesn't mean you have to try and shoehorn supposed "different" dialogue that has no discernible end impact on the stories end according to which you pick.

And the "flirty" choices? This is not Skyrim! (Or BG3). You cannot choose an NPC to woo, with the aim of marrying and setting up home. Flirting with an NPC you cannot marry is just weird. If you choose to flirt with multiple NPC's, are they planning on some "hilarious" dialogue options should several end up in the same room as you further down the line?

Also, regards the Glenumbra thieves guild, why does everything default to the Hews Bane hideout? Finish a heist started in Glenumbra - 1st dialogue choice is returning to Hews Bane. I started one in Glenumbra, messed it up - abandoned it to start again and ended up back at Hews Bane. If you have 2 bases (or possibly more in future) then have them separate from each other for crying out loud. At least swap the Glenumbra choice to number one if the heist started there.

They were "so excited" to bring us this. Playing the Thieves Guild part 2, the favor quests and the "dynamic" encounters. I really wish I was feeling the excitement.

AScarlato · July 15

GibbsieUK wrote: »

And the "flirty" choices? This is not Skyrim! (Or BG3). You cannot choose an NPC to woo, with the aim of marrying and setting up home. Flirting with an NPC you cannot marry is just weird. If you choose to flirt with multiple NPC's, are they planning on some "hilarious" dialogue options should several end up in the same room as you further down the line?

I always click on the flirt dialogue as a fan of romancing in games. I don't think writing should indicate that flirting is only okay if you envision marriage down the road.

My main issue so far is that a lot of them are pretty cringe, and I almost feel like the NPCs really don't welcome it as they are quick to try to change the topic. Maybe it was just my reading but I almost felt like my character is harrassing some of these people. It's...uncomfortable. Worse is when you flirt at really inappropriate times like someone's husband being found dead.

So far only Darien has any changes based on it, and that is well enough. I'd be interested in there also being at least one female romance for options. Unless they try to push Eveli as a smolder scroll then no thanks lol.

coop500 · July 15

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Dialogue trying to cast the widest net possible to save the cost prob. Not everyone would've started with the first TG questline after all.

The issue is, when you try to skip, you get a big glaring box and fancy text pressuring you into not skipping it and how it'd be spoilerish and all this crud. So like what the heck?

wolfie1.0. · July 15

Inconsistencies in writing for games always come up when you have non-linear stories. But some should be anticipated.

Syldras · July 15

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Inconsistencies in writing for games always come up when you have non-linear stories. But some should be anticipated.

If it's supposed to be a sequel, and there is even a warning that it's a sequel for people who try to start it before having finished the old questline, then the writing should be accordingly and consider the plot of the old questline as having happened and being a thing of the past. So treating the player character as a newbie now doesn't fit.

spartaxoxo · July 15

Syldras wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Inconsistencies in writing for games always come up when you have non-linear stories. But some should be anticipated.

If it's supposed to be a sequel, and there is even a warning that it's a sequel for people who try to start it before having finished the old questline, then the writing should be accordingly and consider the plot of the old questline as having happened and being a thing of the past. So treating the player character as a newbie now doesn't fit.

Yeah for me this almost as bad as what you had to reveal in Blackwood. Not quite as bad but certainly the level of shoddy that shouldn't ever pass through. It's worse than stuff like it being too trend chasing, cliche, or repetitive. Those things are the type of things can happen with even good writing teams that are checking for internal consistency. But this isn't just not internally consistent, but it's so wildly contradictory on something so obvious that you have to imagine that it was not being checked for that at all.

It's not like this is some niche piece of lore that most people don't care about or not.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · July 15

Something I just noticed recently, and I don't think this is any spoiler, but in middle of new thieves quest, I popped in at Hew's Bane refuge, and there was Quen. And when I talked to her, plain basic pat dialog with no mention that I just left her 5 minutes ago. Yes, that kinda ruins immersion.

Scaletho · July 15

LittleBlueWraith wrote: »

I don't have a problem with wanting the new Thieves Guild questline to be available for all, regardless of whether or not they did the original... But as someone who DID do the original, the fact that Quen treats me like I'm some unproven newbie is extremely jarring. Especially since I got the introductory quest from her, in the Hew's Bane Thieves Den. The one or two token dialogue options at the start that acknowledge that history just makes it stand out even more. Not that this is a new issue with ESO, but given that this new questline is explicitly a sequel to the old one, it just seems so much worse than other examples (my high elf being called "newcomer" in Summerset was the highlight for me for the longest time).

And not for nothing, (spoilers for dlc that's almost as old as the game itself),
but it wasn't Quen who stepped in as acting guildmaster when Zeira was arrested, was it?

This is an old problem with ZOS: LACK OF CHARACTER RACE/EXPERIENCE RECOGNITION. 90% of all quests simply didn't recognize our character details as if they were nonexistent in ESO lore, although we all represent Vestige.

Khajiits/Imperials/Breton (etc) don't recognize our Khajiit/Imperial/Breton (etc) character as such, side stories that mention it don't recognize if out character is already a Dark Brotherhood or any other aspect, Werewolf/Vampire quest NPCs that SEE out toon transform didn't react about it,

The list is LONG. And this is simply frustrating.

Gabriel_H · July 15

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Something I just noticed recently, and I don't think this is any spoiler, but in middle of new thieves quest, I popped in at Hew's Bane refuge, and there was Quen. And when I talked to her, plain basic pat dialog with no mention that I just left her 5 minutes ago. Yes, that kinda ruins immersion.

When I started playing I ran through the EP main quest and stopped before starting Coldharbour and adjacent. I then ran through AD and DC, and only then did I complete the main quest.

I have fond memories from the Alliance leaders simultaneously distrusting my intentions and being my best friends.

onyxorb · July 16

Scaletho wrote: »

Werewolf/Vampire quest NPCs that SEE out toon transform didn't react about it,

The list is LONG. And this is simply frustrating.

Meanwhile random shopkeepers won't interact with my Stage 4 vamp, even though I have a polymorph or skin that makes me look 'normal'...

As to the original topic, yah.

Acting TG GM, helping every main TG character with personal issue, taking Quen to a wedding.

I deserve more than a few token lines of dialog.

spartaxoxo · July 16

Scaletho wrote: »

LittleBlueWraith wrote: »

I don't have a problem with wanting the new Thieves Guild questline to be available for all, regardless of whether or not they did the original... But as someone who DID do the original, the fact that Quen treats me like I'm some unproven newbie is extremely jarring. Especially since I got the introductory quest from her, in the Hew's Bane Thieves Den. The one or two token dialogue options at the start that acknowledge that history just makes it stand out even more. Not that this is a new issue with ESO, but given that this new questline is explicitly a sequel to the old one, it just seems so much worse than other examples (my high elf being called "newcomer" in Summerset was the highlight for me for the longest time).

And not for nothing, (spoilers for dlc that's almost as old as the game itself),
but it wasn't Quen who stepped in as acting guildmaster when Zeira was arrested, was it?

This is an old problem with ZOS: LACK OF CHARACTER RACE/EXPERIENCE RECOGNITION. 90% of all quests simply didn't recognize our character details as if they were nonexistent in ESO lore, although we all represent Vestige.

Khajiits/Imperials/Breton (etc) don't recognize our Khajiit/Imperial/Breton (etc) character as such, side stories that mention it don't recognize if out character is already a Dark Brotherhood or any other aspect, Werewolf/Vampire quest NPCs that SEE out toon transform didn't react about it,

The list is LONG. And this is simply frustrating.

This is true but also it's more egregious now because being able to be better should have been one of the benefits of finally moving forward in time. Because they were trying to write things like it could all be happening at the same time. That isn't the case anymore. So, many of us thought that meant quests would be written in such a way as they acknowledged the events of built upon the events of prior quests. What other point is there to this being a sequel if not that?

frogthroat · July 16

virtus753 wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

When you fly somewhere, and you land at your destination, the crew welcomes you to the new place. The crew that was with you on the plane and arrived exactly at the same time as you.

But they don’t explicitly make remarks based on an assumption you’ve never flown before. They know they have an audience with a variety of experiences.

In this case our flight attendant seems to have forgotten how many times we’ve worked with her and thinks it’s our first flight.

For sure, for sure. Both things baffle me.

Maybe next time I fly, I welcome the crew after we land.

Gagoimaliu · July 16

Scaletho wrote: »

LittleBlueWraith wrote: »

I don't have a problem with wanting the new Thieves Guild questline to be available for all, regardless of whether or not they did the original... But as someone who DID do the original, the fact that Quen treats me like I'm some unproven newbie is extremely jarring. Especially since I got the introductory quest from her, in the Hew's Bane Thieves Den. The one or two token dialogue options at the start that acknowledge that history just makes it stand out even more. Not that this is a new issue with ESO, but given that this new questline is explicitly a sequel to the old one, it just seems so much worse than other examples (my high elf being called "newcomer" in Summerset was the highlight for me for the longest time).

And not for nothing, (spoilers for dlc that's almost as old as the game itself),
but it wasn't Quen who stepped in as acting guildmaster when Zeira was arrested, was it?

This is an old problem with ZOS: LACK OF CHARACTER RACE/EXPERIENCE RECOGNITION. 90% of all quests simply didn't recognize our character details as if they were nonexistent in ESO lore, although we all represent Vestige.

Khajiits/Imperials/Breton (etc) don't recognize our Khajiit/Imperial/Breton (etc) character as such, side stories that mention it don't recognize if out character is already a Dark Brotherhood or any other aspect, Werewolf/Vampire quest NPCs that SEE out toon transform didn't react about it,

The list is LONG. And this is simply frustrating.

My favorite part of Valenwood was having the Green Pact 'splained to me all the time as if I wasn't a Bosmer. But I did at least like taking my Orc through Wrothgar, some of the NPCs do acknowledge your race even if they still hit you with the "Well, you're still an outsider because you're not from Wrothgar" like, where am I from then? Atmora?

tomofhyrule · July 16

Scaletho wrote: »

LittleBlueWraith wrote: »

I don't have a problem with wanting the new Thieves Guild questline to be available for all, regardless of whether or not they did the original... But as someone who DID do the original, the fact that Quen treats me like I'm some unproven newbie is extremely jarring. Especially since I got the introductory quest from her, in the Hew's Bane Thieves Den. The one or two token dialogue options at the start that acknowledge that history just makes it stand out even more. Not that this is a new issue with ESO, but given that this new questline is explicitly a sequel to the old one, it just seems so much worse than other examples (my high elf being called "newcomer" in Summerset was the highlight for me for the longest time).

And not for nothing, (spoilers for dlc that's almost as old as the game itself),
but it wasn't Quen who stepped in as acting guildmaster when Zeira was arrested, was it?

This is an old problem with ZOS: LACK OF CHARACTER RACE/EXPERIENCE RECOGNITION. 90% of all quests simply didn't recognize our character details as if they were nonexistent in ESO lore, although we all represent Vestige.

Khajiits/Imperials/Breton (etc) don't recognize our Khajiit/Imperial/Breton (etc) character as such, side stories that mention it don't recognize if out character is already a Dark Brotherhood or any other aspect, Werewolf/Vampire quest NPCs that SEE out toon transform didn't react about it,

The list is LONG. And this is simply frustrating.

This has been a problem for ages, with many exceptions during the Wrothgar-Summerset era.

Not that it was perfect there, but playing Wrothgar as an Orc or Summerset as an Altmer did give a fair amount of alternate dialogue. There’s even an entire alternate ending to the Wrothgar quests for male Orcs only.
(My favorite character is still Nerus Lucillus, the merchant at Morkul stronghold who so elegantly puts his foot in his mouth every time I go to sell him things)

But, apart from a couple dialogues for Necromancers in Elsweyr and Zerith’s questline (and now with Subclassing, that dialogue also only recognizes base class so someone who Subclassed into raising the dead is not considered a Necromancer), there’s nothing. The player is treated as a nameless, faceless being who needs the plot explained as if they’re a moron.

The fact that this questline was stated as “a sequel to the first TG quest” and it even gives a notification to that effect means the default state should have been “I already know these characters and they know me.”

This was why the “we’re going back to our strengths: the stories” statement from January’s reveal made me cringe. The stories have not been strengths. And games like BG3, with an impossible amount of dialogue and so much of it tagged for race/class/etc, have really shown how lacking ESO was on that front.