Am I dumb or DK = OP & Arcanist = Trash

Firstmep · July 5

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

Kalthea wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

So let me get this straight. You say that:
We aren't supposed to give negative feedback on a game area that is under development, since it is under development.

Other classes have to be brought up to the power level of Arcanist with the Class Refresh

You are okay with others waiting over 1,5 years to get their classes revamped

People do not accept your bad advice, so they just want 'THEIR' balance to be approved

These are serious fallacies. You are starting to give me the feeling that you just copy-paste everything to an LLM and upload the answer without even thinking it through. But regardless, let me react:
Everything is under development in ESO, everything can be subject to change, so.. your argument is invalid. Also I don't really understand if you are fed up with forum posts like this, why do you invest the effort of commenting half-baked stuff in the thread in the first place.

If you really think DK was supposed to be brought up to be on par with Arcanist in U50, you most certainly don't play any PvP content in this game or just have zero idea of what is going on with the meta. Arcanist was strong when it was introduced and then was also continuously got nerfed terribly through 3 consecutive updates. Since then, for PvP, it is the weakest class. For PvE, it is quite competent, but check the leaderboards - they aren't filled with just Arcanists, there is a great diversity of classes there. But considering PvP... really, I invite you to take a tour on top PvP guides on YouTube or guide websites and try searching for a pure Arcanist build that is recommended by pros. Then in comparison, check the number of videos on DK in the past 3 months. Really, it's gonna be an educative experience. ;3

1,5 years. We are talking one tenth of the whole lifespan of this whole game. Agile software development encourages early and quick deliveries, but nevertheless the aim should be to maintain a working software for the end users. ZOS is clearly failing this objective with this strategy, the current state is a half-baked excuse of an implementation. 1,5 years. Geez.

The original intention of this post to represent that a class is clearly overpowered while others are clearly underpowered. You gave bad advice before, that does not help the situation and believe me, there is a long list of other approached those did not work against former mentioned overpowered class. I enjoy a fair fight lost that I can learn from, and believe me my past months have been nothing about but changing my approaches on PvP, trying myriads of strategies and I can feel myself improving month by month. The fact that I still see in BGs that EVERY SINGLE MATCH IS WON BY THE TEAM WITH MORE DKS AND WWS kinda points me to the conclusion, that they are broken. It is not about 'my' balance. It is factual.

Joy, an accusation of being AI. On your first list:

1) Where did I say to not give negative criticism? Why does everyone keep assuming that I'm saying that? Am I typing it in a way that is difficult to understand? I literally said in the post you are responding to that there are ways of providing constructive criticism. I even provided a couple suggestions, like adding internal cooldowns to passive effects on the class to prevent an overload of Crit Procs and the like. Heck, I just blasted the animations in the game in another forum thread. The problem I have with these discussions is that they lack any form of substance. This whole thread was started by someone complaining that they lost in a PvP match. That's it, and that's all we have to go off of.
2) I never said that they had to be? Heck, I even said earlier that if the Warden changes cause them to be worse than before, I'd happily eat my words. But from what we have to go off of so far, DK is very powerful, and Werewolf is very powerful. Both off the big changes they have done so far have been buffs, so I'm making an assumption from what we have that they are trying to bring everything up to a specific level of power.
3) The other classes have been given Masteries as a temporary placeholder to compensate for the wait time and to encourage pure classing, but also: Yep. I am, in fact, okay with waiting, because I have been told several times by the devs that they want to do it a certain way. What am I supposed to do, give them a Blizzard budget and have them add more developers to the team? I'm not on the board, I don't have that kind of money or influence, so I can't really do that. So, I choose to be patient and wait. Regardless of whether or not I want them sooner (and I do, I would love to see everything brought up to a level playing field with cool new changes!), I cannot change what has been done so far.
4) I couldn't help but notice that you picked one of several things that I listed out. Not all advice is good advice, and I accept that. But when I offer advice, and the reaction is "You're telling me I have to change my build?" then the only thing I can conclude from that is that they don't want to change, at all. And I can't help people who don't want to change.

On your second list:

1) It's not half-baked, please read through the whole forum. You've seemingly skimmed my comments from what I can tell, and that doesn't mean that I haven't thought things through, though perhaps I am forgetting to include my thought processes and I apologize if that's causing confusion. As to why: Because you offer a dichotomy in a discussion that requires nuance. I'm not a fan of black/white polls, and the original post doesn't have much in the way of actual criticism on DK. It reads as a hit piece against DK, providing it with no courtesy nor offering up alterations to bring it back in line. The post is inherently reactive: You lost in a fight, you came on here to complain about losing in the fight and proclaim that DK is too powerful.
2) You are correct, I don't keep up with a lot of PvP. But I do know one thing: You never fight alone, regardless of what game mode you are in. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, or how weak an enemy may seem. You are in a TEAM game, doing TEAM things, and you should be doing things with your TEAM. Also: Requiring that I find, VERY SPECIFICALLY, a Pure Arcanist build that suits your criteria isn't really going to be possible considering the potency of mixing Skill Lines. I'm more than aware of how powerful DK is, and as I said before, I offered some suggestions to help with nerfing it.
3) I...you can't be serious? The software IS working. There is nothing wrong with it except that one class is powerful compared to the rest. Balance complaints don't mean the game is broken, it just means it's unbalanced. Whether or not they deliver on the balance in 1.5 years being a good amount of time is a different argument. For the record, and let me emphasize this: I do not think it IS a good amount of time, and I would like to see it sooner. But we know what our time frame is and we can't really change that, can we?
4) Yep, the advice I gave was bad. But does me giving bad advice mean that you have to ignore everything else that I've said? I understand that the new changes to DK and Werewolf have brought them up to a new level of power. I understand that they are extremely powerful. I understand that other classes feel extremely weak in comparison, TRUST ME I DO. I play every class in the game, and I main a Magicka Warden, which has been at the bottom of every chart in the game except healing for a very, VERY long time.

What would make you satisfied? At what point would you be okay with the game's balance? If Warden is brought up to a point where it matches DK and Werewolf as they are now, what would your opinion be then?

I also...don't see any fallacy? Where have I said anything false, or used a falsehood to develop an argument? Sure, you can view my opinion on PvP posts like this as radical, and I wouldn't mind, as has happened already. But that is an opinion, based around my own observations. I do not present it as a fact, because there are plenty of folks who take posts like this to heart. If I HAVE presented anything using a falsehood, please let me know.

I don't really appreciate the libel you have given me. "Radical Centrist", "using an LLM", "serious fallacies", and yet I offer up discussion, advice where I can and am willing to accept where I am wrong. I understand that I hold differing opinions from you, and it may seem like I'm attacking you, but I'm only going after arguments and presentation. I haven't once gone after you (unless you consider me pointing out the seeming avoidance of parts of my responses as an attack for some reason?), and I would appreciate receiving the same respect in turn.

If you only read a tiny bit of this post, please make it this section: I hold a contrarian opinion, I am aware of that. But I ultimately want balance in the game, like many folks do. So let's turn the discussion to more constructive thoughts:

1) What do you think would improve Arcanist?
2) What would you do to bring current DK into line?
3) Where do you want Arcanist to sit compared to current DK and Werewolf?

1. Literally roll back the last 5 nerfs, like to impervious ward, tentacle etc.
Edit: arc was pretty strong before the nerfs but with how much power creep the game went thru they could revert the biggest nerfs to it and it wouldn't even be a top 3 class these days.
2. Remove the healing or the damage from heart of flame and bring down the sustain, either make it a flat amount like you know LITERALLY every other class sustain skills have or reduce the %. Bring down whip damage, dks have the strongest dots in the game, they will be fine if they don't also get to dish out 1.5 dawnbreaker damage from their spammable every few globals.
3. Doesn't matter but pretty much every class could be viable with some numbers tweaks.
And that's kinda the point about the reworks, it's not just that dks functionality has improved their numbers are massively inflated on top for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Firstmep · July 5

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

Just one more thing, I still haven't seen anyone bring up one good reason why reworks also has to be accompanied by massively inflated numbers. And it's not just dk, but ww too. Ww has 4 out of 5 skills that are effectively free, insane hp scaling self healing from multiple skills. Like rip and tear absolutely does not need to heal for 10k plus. It's a spammable.

We are now seeing a pattern that has me worried for these reworks, wince when you give every class every tool available we're gonna back to basically subclassing 2.0 just with a different skin.

Ocelot9x · July 5

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

It won't be as worst as what necro are having right now because we lost our main source of damage two years ago, stalking blastbone, and we got nerfed again and again, and the corpse limitation destroyed the class. But if arcanists were to loose their beam, or that beam was to be "transformed" into a trash skill the same way blastbone got removed in favor of this grave lord sacrifice trash, then I would say that arcanist would be some sort of destroyed.

Dude, coming from a day 1 Necro main, you gotta stop with the complaints about Necro.

I'll be the first to say it: Necro is actually good now. They have some of the highest parses in PvE and in PvP they've been given an actual identity with the class masteries and Corpseburster buffs.

Are they the best PvP class? No, of course not; but they can easily hold their own now with extremely high burst combos (Blastbones>Venom Skull>Graveyard to proc Corpseburster dealing anywhere from 20k to 40k total damage against a player) and extremely good survivability now between Nothing Wasted and Pound of Flesh.

Look, I get it, what ZOS did to Stalking Blastbones is inexcusable (I still rock a Stalking Blastbones guild tabbard for crying out loud, #NeverForget), but the class masteries have made Necro the strongest it's been since the good old Harmony Graverobber days.

I run rallying cry, corpsebuster,roksa and monomyth. Venom skills hits like a wet noodle,only skill doing decente damage is bb but still delayed and way less than other classes signature burst. Using graveyard to proc corpsebuster Is dumb tbh, youre wasting One gcd you could have used on an execute. With 7k wd and 28k stamina It has a tooltip of around 8k+40% DMG from slotted skills (skulls,tether,bb,graveyard).
Since everyone Is Building tankyness to survive dks you can expect It to hit between 2.6-5k.
The full combo Will do around 15k, good luck killing a good player with that.
Corpsebuster Is good in group and pve,nothing more, its a terribile set to play solo/bg.

Currently necro Is too clunky, too many useless skills like totem or grave grasp and the 20 wd buff is basically wasting a skills slot on a terribile skills.

Great survivability but terribile sustain and 2nd lowest damage, with dk i have infinite sustain and I can build for tankyness and still hitting true 40k unavoidable combos

My guy I'm sorry but you're just not playing it or building it right if you're hitting like a wet noodle.

Blastbones, Venom Skull, and Corpseburster all crit for anywhere between 8k and 13k, and that's not counting the extra 2 procs of diseased nor does it count the ticks of Graveyard or Graverobber itself if you run the Avid morph. You can very easily global people.

Necro is the best it's been since Harmony.

You're also just wrong on the tooltip? Base tooltip with 7k weapon damage flat is over 9k, and that's without any other % modifiers in CP, and obviously not counting the Grave Lord modifiers as you mentioned. It's one of the highest scaling procs in the game due to how the Grave Lord scaling works. My build has an effective CB tooltip of around 15k+ after Gravelord scaling, which is just as hard if not higher than spin2win.

You know you have to filter the recap? Its counting max damage vs matriarchs,dwarven spheres and whatnot.

On average corpse hits between 2.5k-4k and It takes a gcd to proc It,so its basically the same as using a spammabile but youre giving up a whole 5pc bonus for that and the enemy must be on a corpse.
Its good while fighting groups but nothing more.
Of course if you go full damage you'll do more but what about the recovery? If you really want to squeeze your class and play at the highest level you'll start to notice what is lacking, and it's damage and sustain.
Currently surviving is trivial thanks to the class tankyness and of course you can hit gankers/pve players or matriarchs like a truck,but once you start fighting players who have average-good builds you'll notice that the damage is not enough.

And don't compare it to the harmony era, that time was the best we ever had, grave synergy was hitting 11k on average non crit, and we still had explosive blastbone doing flame damage in a vampire meta.

I'm not saying Necromancer is the weakest class (I didnt see an arcanist in like a week) but it's extremely clunky and you have to put 3x more efforts just to achieve what other classes have without breaking a sweat

CameraBeardThePirate · July 5

Ocelot9x wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

It won't be as worst as what necro are having right now because we lost our main source of damage two years ago, stalking blastbone, and we got nerfed again and again, and the corpse limitation destroyed the class. But if arcanists were to loose their beam, or that beam was to be "transformed" into a trash skill the same way blastbone got removed in favor of this grave lord sacrifice trash, then I would say that arcanist would be some sort of destroyed.

Dude, coming from a day 1 Necro main, you gotta stop with the complaints about Necro.

I'll be the first to say it: Necro is actually good now. They have some of the highest parses in PvE and in PvP they've been given an actual identity with the class masteries and Corpseburster buffs.

Are they the best PvP class? No, of course not; but they can easily hold their own now with extremely high burst combos (Blastbones>Venom Skull>Graveyard to proc Corpseburster dealing anywhere from 20k to 40k total damage against a player) and extremely good survivability now between Nothing Wasted and Pound of Flesh.

Look, I get it, what ZOS did to Stalking Blastbones is inexcusable (I still rock a Stalking Blastbones guild tabbard for crying out loud, #NeverForget), but the class masteries have made Necro the strongest it's been since the good old Harmony Graverobber days.

I run rallying cry, corpsebuster,roksa and monomyth. Venom skills hits like a wet noodle,only skill doing decente damage is bb but still delayed and way less than other classes signature burst. Using graveyard to proc corpsebuster Is dumb tbh, youre wasting One gcd you could have used on an execute. With 7k wd and 28k stamina It has a tooltip of around 8k+40% DMG from slotted skills (skulls,tether,bb,graveyard).
Since everyone Is Building tankyness to survive dks you can expect It to hit between 2.6-5k.
The full combo Will do around 15k, good luck killing a good player with that.
Corpsebuster Is good in group and pve,nothing more, its a terribile set to play solo/bg.

Currently necro Is too clunky, too many useless skills like totem or grave grasp and the 20 wd buff is basically wasting a skills slot on a terribile skills.

Great survivability but terribile sustain and 2nd lowest damage, with dk i have infinite sustain and I can build for tankyness and still hitting true 40k unavoidable combos

My guy I'm sorry but you're just not playing it or building it right if you're hitting like a wet noodle.

Blastbones, Venom Skull, and Corpseburster all crit for anywhere between 8k and 13k, and that's not counting the extra 2 procs of diseased nor does it count the ticks of Graveyard or Graverobber itself if you run the Avid morph. You can very easily global people.

Necro is the best it's been since Harmony.

You're also just wrong on the tooltip? Base tooltip with 7k weapon damage flat is over 9k, and that's without any other % modifiers in CP, and obviously not counting the Grave Lord modifiers as you mentioned. It's one of the highest scaling procs in the game due to how the Grave Lord scaling works. My build has an effective CB tooltip of around 15k+ after Gravelord scaling, which is just as hard if not higher than spin2win.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

It won't be as worst as what necro are having right now because we lost our main source of damage two years ago, stalking blastbone, and we got nerfed again and again, and the corpse limitation destroyed the class. But if arcanists were to loose their beam, or that beam was to be "transformed" into a trash skill the same way blastbone got removed in favor of this grave lord sacrifice trash, then I would say that arcanist would be some sort of destroyed.

Dude, coming from a day 1 Necro main, you gotta stop with the complaints about Necro.

I'll be the first to say it: Necro is actually good now. They have some of the highest parses in PvE and in PvP they've been given an actual identity with the class masteries and Corpseburster buffs.

Are they the best PvP class? No, of course not; but they can easily hold their own now with extremely high burst combos (Blastbones>Venom Skull>Graveyard to proc Corpseburster dealing anywhere from 20k to 40k total damage against a player) and extremely good survivability now between Nothing Wasted and Pound of Flesh.

Look, I get it, what ZOS did to Stalking Blastbones is inexcusable (I still rock a Stalking Blastbones guild tabbard for crying out loud, #NeverForget), but the class masteries have made Necro the strongest it's been since the good old Harmony Graverobber days.

I run rallying cry, corpsebuster,roksa and monomyth. Venom skills hits like a wet noodle,only skill doing decente damage is bb but still delayed and way less than other classes signature burst. Using graveyard to proc corpsebuster Is dumb tbh, youre wasting One gcd you could have used on an execute. With 7k wd and 28k stamina It has a tooltip of around 8k+40% DMG from slotted skills (skulls,tether,bb,graveyard).
Since everyone Is Building tankyness to survive dks you can expect It to hit between 2.6-5k.
The full combo Will do around 15k, good luck killing a good player with that.
Corpsebuster Is good in group and pve,nothing more, its a terribile set to play solo/bg.

Currently necro Is too clunky, too many useless skills like totem or grave grasp and the 20 wd buff is basically wasting a skills slot on a terribile skills.

Great survivability but terribile sustain and 2nd lowest damage, with dk i have infinite sustain and I can build for tankyness and still hitting true 40k unavoidable combos

My guy I'm sorry but you're just not playing it or building it right if you're hitting like a wet noodle.

Blastbones, Venom Skull, and Corpseburster all crit for anywhere between 8k and 13k, and that's not counting the extra 2 procs of diseased nor does it count the ticks of Graveyard or Graverobber itself if you run the Avid morph. You can very easily global people.

Necro is the best it's been since Harmony.

You're also just wrong on the tooltip? Base tooltip with 7k weapon damage flat is over 9k, and that's without any other % modifiers in CP, and obviously not counting the Grave Lord modifiers as you mentioned. It's one of the highest scaling procs in the game due to how the Grave Lord scaling works. My build has an effective CB tooltip of around 15k+ after Gravelord scaling, which is just as hard if not higher than spin2win.

You know you have to filter the recap? Its counting max damage vs matriarchs,dwarven spheres and whatnot.

On average corpse hits between 2.5k-4k and It takes a gcd to proc It,so its basically the same as using a spammabile but youre giving up a whole 5pc bonus for that and the enemy must be on a corpse.
Its good while fighting groups but nothing more.
Of course if you go full damage you'll do more but what about the recovery? If you really want to squeeze your class and play at the highest level you'll start to notice what is lacking, and it's damage and sustain.
Currently surviving is trivial thanks to the class tankyness and of course you can hit gankers/pve players or matriarchs like a truck,but once you start fighting players who have average-good builds you'll notice that the damage is not enough.

And don't compare it to the harmony era, that time was the best we ever had, grave synergy was hitting 11k on average non crit, and we still had explosive blastbone doing flame damage in a vampire meta.

I'm not saying Necromancer is the weakest class (I didnt see an arcanist in like a week) but it's extremely clunky and you have to put 3x more efforts just to achieve what other classes have without breaking a sweat

Are you aware that pets (including Matriarch, Sphere, Scamp, Ball Lightning, etc etc) take 90% less damage from other pets, AoEs, and procs? Those blastbones and corpseburster max hits are against players. You don't see those numbers against pets with either skill. Sure, the Venom Skulls could have been against a pet (it wasn't).

Average also takes into account all the blocked hits, and CMX never counts overkill damage. Plus, you're looking for crit combos on burst builds anyways; average matters much more for pressure specs.

The truth is everyone continues to undersell Necro because they've been garbage for so long, but they're actually good this patch, full stop.

Kalthea · July 5

Firstmep wrote: »

Just one more thing, I still haven't seen anyone bring up one good reason why reworks also has to be accompanied by massively inflated numbers. And it's not just dk, but ww too. Ww has 4 out of 5 skills that are effectively free, insane hp scaling self healing from multiple skills. Like rip and tear absolutely does not need to heal for 10k plus. It's a spammable.

We are now seeing a pattern that has me worried for these reworks, wince when you give every class every tool available we're gonna back to basically subclassing 2.0 just with a different skin.

It doesn't need to be, it's just what ZOS has chosen to do. It's not a good thing that there's a massive difference between the old classes and the new ones, but they obviously have some idea of where they want everything to end up in terms of difficulty. I can see why the fear of Subclassing 2.0 would be on the mind though, the difference in power that it offers is extreme.

Usureki wrote: »

1. Literally roll back the last 5 nerfs, like to impervious ward, tentacle etc.
Edit: arc was pretty strong before the nerfs but with how much power creep the game went thru they could revert the biggest nerfs to it and it wouldn't even be a top 3 class these days.
2. Remove the healing or the damage from heart of flame and bring down the sustain, either make it a flat amount like you know LITERALLY every other class sustain skills have or reduce the %. Bring down whip damage, dks have the strongest dots in the game, they will be fine if they don't also get to dish out 1.5 dawnbreaker damage from their spammable every few globals.
3. Doesn't matter but pretty much every class could be viable with some numbers tweaks.
And that's kinda the point about the reworks, it's not just that dks functionality has improved their numbers are massively inflated on top for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

1) I can agree with the rollbacks. Looking into the nerfs, it was probably a knee-jerk reaction. The Impervious Ward getting hit so hard was a lot, especially considering how weak it is after 1 second. If they buffed the reaction window to 1.5 or 2 seconds that might make it a bit easier to digest, but nerfing the second shield that hard barely makes it worth using. I would recommend aiming for the Light Armor shield ability "Harness Magicka" at that point if you have the Light Armor for it. It offers the same damage shield for 6 seconds, but this suggestion mostly applies if you're using it as a defensive tool and not for its damage output and Health Scaling.
2) That, or removing the Magicka/Stamina restoration. Starving them of some resources could help reduce their sheer number output for the rest of their abilities. Maybe bring the healing down to half of what it has now.
3) My only assumption on the number increases is that ZOS is working with one of the new Overland difficulties as their baseline for damage output on the classes, and they're using that to measure where each class should be in terms of DPS and survivability. But without informing us of what their end-goal is, it leaves us blind for sure.

dwolfgheist · July 6

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

Kalthea wrote: »

Addendum to my earlier suggestion for building Resists against a DK: I was reminded that Corrosive Armor on DK lets you bypass resits. In turn, the best way to build against that is Health/Shields, Health Recovery and a touch of Healing.

So, we are all shield tanks know, that's the solution? Dk is broken period. The only thing missing on it's kit is a cleanse, but they don't really need it cause no one runs dots, since you will never kill them before they ult + whip you.

dwolfgheist · July 6

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

dwolfgheist wrote: »

Kalthea wrote: »

Addendum to my earlier suggestion for building Resists against a DK: I was reminded that Corrosive Armor on DK lets you bypass resits. In turn, the best way to build against that is Health/Shields, Health Recovery and a touch of Healing.

So, we are all shield tanks know, that's the solution? Dk is broken period. The only thing missing on it's kit is a cleanse, but they don't really need it cause no one runs dots, since you will never kill them before they ult + whip you.

I find this terrible just looking at duels, more of them that only end due to one player's exhaustion is not what we need, I mean there could be a solution. like a buff that increases your damage after a certain threshhold (combination of time + direct attacks) But I don't think they are even considering it.

I mean people run dots, but the dmg doesn't go over DKs Hot + insane sustain from heart of flame, even on most high dmg builds. Only WW are able to do something till now (good sorcs can beat bad dks, sure, but that is cause streak is op on certain maps).

Avran_Sylt · July 6

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

Your problem is that it took 10s.

If your DD specced and can't kill them in 1, well... Bad news for you.

Avran_Sylt · July 6

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

dwolfgheist wrote: »

dwolfgheist wrote: »

Kalthea wrote: »

Addendum to my earlier suggestion for building Resists against a DK: I was reminded that Corrosive Armor on DK lets you bypass resits. In turn, the best way to build against that is Health/Shields, Health Recovery and a touch of Healing.

So, we are all shield tanks know, that's the solution? Dk is broken period. The only thing missing on it's kit is a cleanse, but they don't really need it cause no one runs dots, since you will never kill them before they ult + whip you.

I find this terrible just looking at duels, more of them that only end due to one player's exhaustion is not what we need, I mean there could be a solution. like a buff that increases your damage after a certain threshhold (combination of time + direct attacks) But I don't think they are even considering it.

I mean people run dots, but the dmg doesn't go over DKs Hot + insane sustain from heart of flame, even on most high dmg builds. Only WW are able to do something till now (good sorcs can beat bad dks, sure, but that is cause streak is op on certain maps).

This has literally been the meta since day 1. Tanky attrition. And when there hasn't been enough attrition: stalemates or crashing a head against a wall.

Proc sets have always been a complaint. Guess ZoS is deciding that kill potential is also going to coincide with the slotted skills you have for burst damage.

...Which I don't disagree with, just that the staggard class reworks are going to make this very singularly class focused for the next few years.

Ocelot9x · July 6

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

dwolfgheist wrote: »

dwolfgheist wrote: »

Kalthea wrote: »

Addendum to my earlier suggestion for building Resists against a DK: I was reminded that Corrosive Armor on DK lets you bypass resits. In turn, the best way to build against that is Health/Shields, Health Recovery and a touch of Healing.

So, we are all shield tanks know, that's the solution? Dk is broken period. The only thing missing on it's kit is a cleanse, but they don't really need it cause no one runs dots, since you will never kill them before they ult + whip you.

I find this terrible just looking at duels, more of them that only end due to one player's exhaustion is not what we need, I mean there could be a solution. like a buff that increases your damage after a certain threshhold (combination of time + direct attacks) But I don't think they are even considering it.

I mean people run dots, but the dmg doesn't go over DKs Hot + insane sustain from heart of flame, even on most high dmg builds. Only WW are able to do something till now (good sorcs can beat bad dks, sure, but that is cause streak is op on certain maps).

This has literally been the meta since day 1. Tanky attrition. And when there hasn't been enough attrition: stalemates or crashing a head against a wall.

Proc sets have always been a complaint. Guess ZoS is deciding that kill potential is also going to coincide with the slotted skills you have for burst damage.

...Which I don't disagree with, just that the staggard class reworks are going to make this very singularly class focused for the next few years.

Not from day 1 tho, we used to run around with 20k hp but then they started adding unavoidable combos.
People started building for tankyness since dawnbreaker became undodgeable because it wasn't about skill anymore since I could get instastunned mid rolling.
And now we are in the same situation where 8 out of 10 players are DK and there's no way to avoid a well timed take flight+breath+inferno+lash combo hitting at the same time so the only counter is to build for tankyness.

Firstmep · July 6

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

Kalthea wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Just one more thing, I still haven't seen anyone bring up one good reason why reworks also has to be accompanied by massively inflated numbers. And it's not just dk, but ww too. Ww has 4 out of 5 skills that are effectively free, insane hp scaling self healing from multiple skills. Like rip and tear absolutely does not need to heal for 10k plus. It's a spammable.

We are now seeing a pattern that has me worried for these reworks, wince when you give every class every tool available we're gonna back to basically subclassing 2.0 just with a different skin.

It doesn't need to be, it's just what ZOS has chosen to do. It's not a good thing that there's a massive difference between the old classes and the new ones, but they obviously have some idea of where they want everything to end up in terms of difficulty. I can see why the fear of Subclassing 2.0 would be on the mind though, the difference in power that it offers is extreme.

Usureki wrote: »

1. Literally roll back the last 5 nerfs, like to impervious ward, tentacle etc.
Edit: arc was pretty strong before the nerfs but with how much power creep the game went thru they could revert the biggest nerfs to it and it wouldn't even be a top 3 class these days.
2. Remove the healing or the damage from heart of flame and bring down the sustain, either make it a flat amount like you know LITERALLY every other class sustain skills have or reduce the %. Bring down whip damage, dks have the strongest dots in the game, they will be fine if they don't also get to dish out 1.5 dawnbreaker damage from their spammable every few globals.
3. Doesn't matter but pretty much every class could be viable with some numbers tweaks.
And that's kinda the point about the reworks, it's not just that dks functionality has improved their numbers are massively inflated on top for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

1) I can agree with the rollbacks. Looking into the nerfs, it was probably a knee-jerk reaction. The Impervious Ward getting hit so hard was a lot, especially considering how weak it is after 1 second. If they buffed the reaction window to 1.5 or 2 seconds that might make it a bit easier to digest, but nerfing the second shield that hard barely makes it worth using. I would recommend aiming for the Light Armor shield ability "Harness Magicka" at that point if you have the Light Armor for it. It offers the same damage shield for 6 seconds, but this suggestion mostly applies if you're using it as a defensive tool and not for its damage output and Health Scaling.
2) That, or removing the Magicka/Stamina restoration. Starving them of some resources could help reduce their sheer number output for the rest of their abilities. Maybe bring the healing down to half of what it has now.
3) My only assumption on the number increases is that ZOS is working with one of the new Overland difficulties as their baseline for damage output on the classes, and they're using that to measure where each class should be in terms of DPS and survivability. But without informing us of what their end-goal is, it leaves us blind for sure.

When they announced the reworks I expected every class to have obvious strengths and weaknesses, however at least for dk there don't seem to be one.
I keep hearing that dk is not a good ranged class but then does it really matter when wings shuts down ranged dmg vs them anyway.
And that ww can be kited. I mean they have more built in movespeed than triple swift jewelery and can get major exp from bow, and have a gap closer. I have yet to see anyone except the most avid streak spamming sorcs able to get away from my werewolf, and in a straight up fight even they can't kite just (maybe) get away.

zammo · July 6

Start by dropping resto for ice staff / sword & board.

Kalthea · July 6

Firstmep wrote: »

When they announced the reworks I expected every class to have obvious strengths and weaknesses, however at least for dk there don't seem to be one.
I keep hearing that dk is not a good ranged class but then does it really matter when wings shuts down ranged dmg vs them anyway.
And that ww can be kited. I mean they have more built in movespeed than triple swift jewelery and can get major exp from bow, and have a gap closer. I have yet to see anyone except the most avid streak spamming sorcs able to get away from my werewolf, and in a straight up fight even they can't kite just (maybe) get away.

It could be that they are attempting to make singular skill lines more appealing than the classes themselves to offer up a wider selection of options for Subclassing. Not sure if that's a good idea, but I could see the reasoning behind it and then offering up Masteries as the draw to stay pure class. Heck, on Magden I can get rid of Nunatak for a different ice set just because Warden is now the only other source of Major Brittle, and that ultimately will increase my (and my team's) DPS.

Not saying it's a good idea, mind you. Just that it might be their way of doing their new balance.

dwolfgheist wrote: »

So, we are all shield tanks know, that's the solution? Dk is broken period. The only thing missing on it's kit is a cleanse, but they don't really need it cause no one runs dots, since you will never kill them before they ult + whip you.

dwolfgheist wrote: »

I find this terrible just looking at duels, more of them that only end due to one player's exhaustion is not what we need, I mean there could be a solution. like a buff that increases your damage after a certain threshhold (combination of time + direct attacks) But I don't think they are even considering it.

I mean people run dots, but the dmg doesn't go over DKs Hot + insane sustain from heart of flame, even on most high dmg builds. Only WW are able to do something till now (good sorcs can beat bad dks, sure, but that is cause streak is op on certain maps).

Yes, it is terrible. If only we had a balanced game mode for PvP that removed Champion Points, Passives and Proc sets to bring only the players and their skill expression into the front line.

That was sarcasm, of course. You have pointed out why I far prefer Vengeance, regardless of the ramifications it has on PvP rewards. Every time I play Vengeance i have a far more enjoyable time than normal Cyro because when I die, I feel like it's my own fault and not due to a looming meta.

dwolfgheist · July 6

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

Kalthea wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

When they announced the reworks I expected every class to have obvious strengths and weaknesses, however at least for dk there don't seem to be one.
I keep hearing that dk is not a good ranged class but then does it really matter when wings shuts down ranged dmg vs them anyway.
And that ww can be kited. I mean they have more built in movespeed than triple swift jewelery and can get major exp from bow, and have a gap closer. I have yet to see anyone except the most avid streak spamming sorcs able to get away from my werewolf, and in a straight up fight even they can't kite just (maybe) get away.

It could be that they are attempting to make singular skill lines more appealing than the classes themselves to offer up a wider selection of options for Subclassing. Not sure if that's a good idea, but I could see the reasoning behind it and then offering up Masteries as the draw to stay pure class. Heck, on Magden I can get rid of Nunatak for a different ice set just because Warden is now the only other source of Major Brittle, and that ultimately will increase my (and my team's) DPS.

Not saying it's a good idea, mind you. Just that it might be their way of doing their new balance.

dwolfgheist wrote: »

So, we are all shield tanks know, that's the solution? Dk is broken period. The only thing missing on it's kit is a cleanse, but they don't really need it cause no one runs dots, since you will never kill them before they ult + whip you.

dwolfgheist wrote: »

I find this terrible just looking at duels, more of them that only end due to one player's exhaustion is not what we need, I mean there could be a solution. like a buff that increases your damage after a certain threshhold (combination of time + direct attacks) But I don't think they are even considering it.

I mean people run dots, but the dmg doesn't go over DKs Hot + insane sustain from heart of flame, even on most high dmg builds. Only WW are able to do something till now (good sorcs can beat bad dks, sure, but that is cause streak is op on certain maps).

Yes, it is terrible. If only we had a balanced game mode for PvP that removed Champion Points, Passives and Proc sets to bring only the players and their skill expression into the front line.

That was sarcasm, of course. You have pointed out why I far prefer Vengeance, regardless of the ramifications it has on PvP rewards. Every time I play Vengeance i have a far more enjoyable time than normal Cyro because when I die, I feel like it's my own fault and not due to a looming meta.

I'll play another game that does it better, there are plenty for that, ESO was always about creating your own build for me. I have no issues in having a disadvantage in certain scenarios due to my build, but this current state is absurd, subclass meta was better, at least most of the hard hitting ones tended to also fall quickly (there were some exceptions, but you get the idea).

Kalthea · July 13

dwolfgheist wrote: »

I'll play another game that does it better, there are plenty for that, ESO was always about creating your own build for me. I have no issues in having a disadvantage in certain scenarios due to my build, but this current state is absurd, subclass meta was better, at least most of the hard hitting ones tended to also fall quickly (there were some exceptions, but you get the idea).

This is an argument that we will just have to chalk up to a difference of opinion. I want THIS game to have as good of a balance as it possibly can. I understand the frustration of having the aspect you came to the game being removed, but balancing out every single class and set combo is just an infinite treadmill that will never cease.

That being said, with the news of layoffs on the dev team, I now can no longer defend their decisions with any form of clarity, so we'll have to see what ends up happening with the game at this point.

IZZEFlameLash · July 14

Kalthea wrote: »

dwolfgheist wrote: »

I'll play another game that does it better, there are plenty for that, ESO was always about creating your own build for me. I have no issues in having a disadvantage in certain scenarios due to my build, but this current state is absurd, subclass meta was better, at least most of the hard hitting ones tended to also fall quickly (there were some exceptions, but you get the idea).

This is an argument that we will just have to chalk up to a difference of opinion. I want THIS game to have as good of a balance as it possibly can. I understand the frustration of having the aspect you came to the game being removed, but balancing out every single class and set combo is just an infinite treadmill that will never cease.

That being said, with the news of layoffs on the dev team, I now can no longer defend their decisions with any form of clarity, so we'll have to see what ends up happening with the game at this point.

Apparently, the reworks are on schedule, soo... fingers crossed. We will see how 'busted' the next reworked class, a.k.a, Warden will be.

lnigo · July 16

Kalthea is right, Usureki. Just by reading a few of your comments, I can see your knowledge of PvP is limited. "16k pen, 6k spell power, 30k health & armor and the bells and whistles above" is certainly nothing to boast about, as they are mediocre at best. For starters, 30k health is considered a low amount of health, especially on a class with health-scaling defensive abilities. A DK worth his/her heat can reduce 30k health to zero before you can build a single crux.

In hindsight, your build on the worst class (PvP) is mediocre and you're asking to be able to beat a good (deduced from the description of his/her actions of standing there and jumping around) player playing the strongest class in the game? Instead of dismissing Kalthea's valid advice of building into health, you should probably consider it. Go into your combat settings and toggle resource numbers on, then look around in Cyrodiil to gauge the amount of health all the players around you have, because it sounds like you're an inexperienced player flying off the handle on the forums demanding justice.

In PvP, DK is strong and versatile, in all aspects of PvP. Arc is weak and inept, (incredibly) useful only as a support role. Quite frankly, Arc will never be strong (defined as "the best class") in PvP as a single entity outside of a support role or some sort of rat, sub-classed ganker. It's unfortunate, but the design of the Arcanist and it's crux generation/consumption makes it extremely difficult to manage under extreme pressure.

For Arcanist to be better, it has to be able to function off consuming less crux for more benefit, and perhaps also being able to still have crux left in the chamber after consumption, similar to how Necromancer has abilities that consume only one corpse, and not abilities that scale to max value with x amount of corpses consumed. Instead, all of an Arc's crux consuming abilities eat all of them. This is a huge weakness and for many reasons. I'd love to do nothing more than to discuss different ways on how Arc can be better, but I fear those words would go into one ear and out the other.

Usureki · July 17

DK OP & Arcanist Trash

lnigo wrote: »

Kalthea is right, Usureki. Just by reading a few of your comments, I can see your knowledge of PvP is limited. "16k pen, 6k spell power, 30k health & armor and the bells and whistles above" is certainly nothing to boast about, as they are mediocre at best. For starters, 30k health is considered a low amount of health, especially on a class with health-scaling defensive abilities. A DK worth his/her heat can reduce 30k health to zero before you can build a single crux.

In hindsight, your build on the worst class (PvP) is mediocre and you're asking to be able to beat a good (deduced from the description of his/her actions of standing there and jumping around) player playing the strongest class in the game? Instead of dismissing Kalthea's valid advice of building into health, you should probably consider it. Go into your combat settings and toggle resource numbers on, then look around in Cyrodiil to gauge the amount of health all the players around you have, because it sounds like you're an inexperienced player flying off the handle on the forums demanding justice.

In PvP, DK is strong and versatile, in all aspects of PvP. Arc is weak and inept, (incredibly) useful only as a support role. Quite frankly, Arc will never be strong (defined as "the best class") in PvP as a single entity outside of a support role or some sort of rat, sub-classed ganker. It's unfortunate, but the design of the Arcanist and it's crux generation/consumption makes it extremely difficult to manage under extreme pressure.

For Arcanist to be better, it has to be able to function off consuming less crux for more benefit, and perhaps also being able to still have crux left in the chamber after consumption, similar to how Necromancer has abilities that consume only one corpse, and not abilities that scale to max value with x amount of corpses consumed. Instead, all of an Arc's crux consuming abilities eat all of them. This is a huge weakness and for many reasons. I'd love to do nothing more than to discuss different ways on how Arc can be better, but I fear those words would go into one ear and out the other.

I think you are kind of missing the point here and you are also reasoning against yourself. You tell me that I should invest more in defense while the problem statement was that regardless of me going full offensive, attack with the best available options I have, yet the DK survives and makes easy work of my character.

Having more HP will allow me another second to see my ass whipped by those OP monsters and I don't see how going defensive is a good strategy while they have endless sustain to back up those 12k whips. I don't understand what is your intention - you criticize the level of skill you perceive, then literally describe the issue what I'm talking about; DK is OP in PvP and Arcanist is trash in PvP.

The Class Masteries could be a good start where Arcanist could be brought up to the competitive level, but even those were kinda lackluster compared to other classes, e.g. Sorcerer.

IZZEFlameLash · July 18

Usureki wrote: »

lnigo wrote: »

Kalthea is right, Usureki. Just by reading a few of your comments, I can see your knowledge of PvP is limited. "16k pen, 6k spell power, 30k health & armor and the bells and whistles above" is certainly nothing to boast about, as they are mediocre at best. For starters, 30k health is considered a low amount of health, especially on a class with health-scaling defensive abilities. A DK worth his/her heat can reduce 30k health to zero before you can build a single crux.

In hindsight, your build on the worst class (PvP) is mediocre and you're asking to be able to beat a good (deduced from the description of his/her actions of standing there and jumping around) player playing the strongest class in the game? Instead of dismissing Kalthea's valid advice of building into health, you should probably consider it. Go into your combat settings and toggle resource numbers on, then look around in Cyrodiil to gauge the amount of health all the players around you have, because it sounds like you're an inexperienced player flying off the handle on the forums demanding justice.

In PvP, DK is strong and versatile, in all aspects of PvP. Arc is weak and inept, (incredibly) useful only as a support role. Quite frankly, Arc will never be strong (defined as "the best class") in PvP as a single entity outside of a support role or some sort of rat, sub-classed ganker. It's unfortunate, but the design of the Arcanist and it's crux generation/consumption makes it extremely difficult to manage under extreme pressure.

For Arcanist to be better, it has to be able to function off consuming less crux for more benefit, and perhaps also being able to still have crux left in the chamber after consumption, similar to how Necromancer has abilities that consume only one corpse, and not abilities that scale to max value with x amount of corpses consumed. Instead, all of an Arc's crux consuming abilities eat all of them. This is a huge weakness and for many reasons. I'd love to do nothing more than to discuss different ways on how Arc can be better, but I fear those words would go into one ear and out the other.

I think you are kind of missing the point here and you are also reasoning against yourself. You tell me that I should invest more in defense while the problem statement was that regardless of me going full offensive, attack with the best available options I have, yet the DK survives and makes easy work of my character.

Having more HP will allow me another second to see my ass whipped by those OP monsters and I don't see how going defensive is a good strategy while they have endless sustain to back up those 12k whips. I don't understand what is your intention - you criticize the level of skill you perceive, then literally describe the issue what I'm talking about; DK is OP in PvP and Arcanist is trash in PvP.

The Class Masteries could be a good start where Arcanist could be brought up to the competitive level, but even those were kinda lackluster compared to other classes, e.g. Sorcerer.

I can agree that Arcanist is in a bad spot but it had been in the mediocre spot since the beginning outside of boring Serpent's Disdain, Maarselok and Masters DW/Vate Ice setup. It's in a worse place now because Sorc got the best deal out of the class masteries (Warden in theory too but that status effect stacking leading to more damage boost passive doesn't seem to work unless the wd/sd tracking addon is on the crack pipe), and DK got the rework.

As far as I can tell from playing Arc recently, the class feels like I am back to post Morrowind nerf 2016-2017 DK. A.k.a, miserable sustain and you build for sustain then your damage kind of becomes mid.

It is only better than that iteration of DK in that it hits very hard in all damage spec at the cost of lower resists and mediocre sustain. Arc class masteries ain't that bad but leaves much to be desired. And iirc reading in the forums, a passive is broken? The one that gives 333 or so damage boost.