Regarding "ESO is dead" sentiment in light of the layoffs

BardokRedSnow · July 7

Fine by me, I have no interest in a debate over morality when discussing a business, whose only goal is to earn money.

This isnt a place to discuss yalls gripes with capitalism, its not going to change that zenimax and bethesda, and microsoft are businesses first and foremost.

Soufjourn · July 7

Could end up like SWTOR where the game will just be updated every 6 months or so by a small skeleton crew afterall it seem to work for that game why wouldnt it for this one either

BardokRedSnow · July 7

Sovfjen wrote: »

Could end up like SWTOR where the game will just be updated every 6 months or so by a small skeleton crew afterall it seem to work for that game why wouldnt it for this one either

Doubtful, eso has made double what SWTOR had, and regardless of the complaints made, zenimax has better business practices even under microsoft than EA does and Bioware by extension. And its still generating a massive amount of revenue now, and with no TES 6 in sight all they have rn is Oblivion Remastered, Fallout 76 and ESO. Some Doom DLC etc on the side from other IPs as well.

When that changes and assuming TES 6 is even a hit, which tbh I think it probably will be off the name alone, realistically ESO is probably not going to lose development for the foreseeable future, even if its not as much or as fast as people want it to be initially.

illutian · July 7

AzuraFan wrote: »

PzTnT wrote: »

so I doubt very much the SP games will have online stuff.

Allow me to submit....Conan Exiles. Which allows for Single Player....with a cosmetic shop...that requires 'always on' connection to keep purchased items enabled for said single player mode.

SaffronCitrusflower · July 7

Fata1moose wrote: »

I don’t think toxic positivity is the right outlook. A significant portion of the staff got laid off last year and more yesterday, possibly more to come in the second wave. Game might not be dead but it’s sending it into a tail spin.

Careful. This is a conspiracy theory that moderators have taken action on before. No need to ask me how I know.

Blackwing_Soul · July 7

Sovfjen wrote: »

Could end up like SWTOR where the game will just be updated every 6 months or so by a small skeleton crew afterall it seem to work for that game why wouldnt it for this one either

Long as the servers stay up, this would probably keep ESO plugging along. If the devs can reach a satisfactory equilibrium between cost/profit with Micro$oft ESO could stay chugging along for quite a while.

Hawco10 · July 7

I agree with pretty much everything the OP said — the situation is awful for the people impacted, and the corporate greed angle is frustrating as hell. At the same time, the flood of "ESO is done" takes right now feels premature.
Season 1 is still dropping on schedule, the team reaffirmed their commitment, and they're actively evaluating for an updated roadmap. Yeah, things will likely slow down with a smaller team, but the game has a strong player base, solid revenue, and Microsoft wants to keep the Elder Scrolls IP healthy. In ~6 months I expect it to still be actively supported — leaner content cadence for sure, but far from dead.
Totally fair to be worried, but holding off on full doom until we see the new roadmap makes sense. Let's give the remaining team some breathing room and time.

RandomKodiak · July 7

"Revenue and Profitability BreakdownTotal Revenue: The MMO generated almost $2 billion in lifetime revenue as of 2024, maintaining steady earnings.Monthly Earnings: Industry reports indicate the title consistently pulls in around $15 million in revenue every month.Profit Margin: Operating costs for ZeniMax Online Studios are estimated at roughly $5 million per month, netting a high profit margin of 60% to 70%"

Hard to argue with the pure corporate angle. Most businesses would kill for margins like that. Microsoft has been squeezing the life out of all the studios it bought up, no different here. Some pencil pusher saw that there was a recent uptick with all the returning and new players and the people at the top saw the opportunity to screw the actual workers who were the reason. Happens all the time these days across all industries. Short sighted people who are already richer than any of us will ever dream of being thinking "He who dies with the most toys wins, to hell with everyone else!"

Hapexamendios · July 8

I'll agree that saying "ESO is dead" is a bit much. However me saying "It's almost dead to me." isn't.

Faltasë · July 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Fine by me, I have no interest in a debate over morality when discussing a business, whose only goal is to earn money.

This isnt a place to discuss yalls gripes with capitalism, its not going to change that zenimax and bethesda, and microsoft are businesses first and foremost.

Lol. Reductionist arguments like yours that devalue people's existence based on pedantics that swiftly put the entire conversation to the side. Businesses should know actually by now that accepting talks of morality and binding themselves ethically to their product will almost always be a good investment.

You're acting as if the two cannot co-exist in a healthy manner, and the conversation is basically that art is affected by the elite who wish to profit off of its existence for their own benefit, without regard for the art form.

But I guess it's not a surprise here, because if you're a businessman and your only goal is money you're automatically soulless.

baratron · July 11

Some good news for a change. This is important.

According to both Jason Barnes (Associate Design Director) and Jessica Folsom (Associate Director of Community Management), Zenimax Online Studios is now at the same size as it was when they made both Wrothgar and Summerset.

Which, as we know, are both highly acclaimed DLCs.

So while the layoffs are extremely upsetting for everyone involved (of course including players), this is not necessarily the end of new content or the game going into maintenance mode.

Nick Giacomini (Game Director) and Susan Kath (Studio Executive Producer) are specifically not at the ESO Tavern because they're working on the new Roadmap of when content will be released. It really is not the end yet.

Also @ZOS_Amy and @ZOS_Kevin have been confirmed to still be at the studio.

colossalvoids · July 11

The sizing means not much honestly when the brain leakage is at question, mostly. Who's in charge of dungeons now, how competent they are not only as developers but as players, do they share the same sentiments as players for whom the content is created? I knew the answers prior to that with Finny being in charge, now I have no idea when the "torch bearer" is out of the picture. We were in already quite clear maintenance mode for awhile, what's changing for a better now with such a massive layoffs?

Eldovar · July 11

baratron wrote: »

Some good news for a change. This is important.

According to both Jason Barnes (Associate Design Director) and Jessica Folsom (Associate Director of Community Management), Zenimax Online Studios is now at the same size as it was when they made both Wrothgar and Summerset.

Which, as we know, are both highly acclaimed DLCs.

So while the layoffs are extremely upsetting for everyone involved (of course including players), this is not necessarily the end of new content or the game going into maintenance mode.

Nick Giacomini (Game Director) and Susan Kath (Studio Executive Producer) are specifically not at the ESO Tavern because they're working on the new Roadmap of when content will be released. It really is not the end yet.

Also @ZOS_Amy and @ZOS_Kevin have been confirmed to still be at the studio.

Interesting news. Thanks for sharing.

ID Software put out a statement out yesterday saying the same: the studio is now the same size as when they made the Doom 2016 reboot which was a giant hit. It seems the strategy with Xbox is to get teams back to pre-covid hire spree many companies did.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/doom/id-software-statement-layoffs

Still curious for that roadmap. With a smaller team more focus is needed. So personally I would scrap temporary experimental content first and expand the game with permanent and meaningful additions while also focus on continuing the class reworks. Fluff that takes an enormous amount of engineering work and time like cross play should be put on hold IMO in favour of stuff all players benefit from.

ZOS_Kevin · July 11

Eldovar wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

Some good news for a change. This is important.

According to both Jason Barnes (Associate Design Director) and Jessica Folsom (Associate Director of Community Management), Zenimax Online Studios is now at the same size as it was when they made both Wrothgar and Summerset.

Which, as we know, are both highly acclaimed DLCs.

So while the layoffs are extremely upsetting for everyone involved (of course including players), this is not necessarily the end of new content or the game going into maintenance mode.

Nick Giacomini (Game Director) and Susan Kath (Studio Executive Producer) are specifically not at the ESO Tavern because they're working on the new Roadmap of when content will be released. It really is not the end yet.

Also @ZOS_Amy and @ZOS_Kevin have been confirmed to still be at the studio.

Interesting news. Thanks for sharing.

ID Software put out a statement out yesterday saying the same: the studio is now the same size as when they made the Doom 2016 reboot which was a giant hit. It seems the strategy with Xbox is to get teams back to pre-covid hire spree many companies did.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/doom/id-software-statement-layoffs

Still curious for that roadmap. With a smaller team more focus is needed. So personally I would scrap temporary experimental content first and expand the game with permanent and meaningful additions while also focus on continuing the class reworks. Fluff that takes an enormous amount of engineering work and time like cross play should be put on hold IMO in favour of stuff all players benefit from.

Just wanted to follow up on this as well. We are planning a revised roadmap, however as noted above, Nick and Susan are working on timing and taking care of our team, in what has been understandably a difficult week.

The plan is still to deliver great content, and we will hopefully have an update soon. Just wanted to thank everyone for the kind words and concern for everyone at the studio and everyone impacted by layoffs. We know that everyone appreciates it.

Also apologies for any delay in follow up from me this week here on the forum. I'm currently at the Tavern.

ApoAlaia · July 11

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Eldovar wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

Some good news for a change. This is important.

According to both Jason Barnes (Associate Design Director) and Jessica Folsom (Associate Director of Community Management), Zenimax Online Studios is now at the same size as it was when they made both Wrothgar and Summerset.

Which, as we know, are both highly acclaimed DLCs.

So while the layoffs are extremely upsetting for everyone involved (of course including players), this is not necessarily the end of new content or the game going into maintenance mode.

Nick Giacomini (Game Director) and Susan Kath (Studio Executive Producer) are specifically not at the ESO Tavern because they're working on the new Roadmap of when content will be released. It really is not the end yet.

Also @ZOS_Amy and @ZOS_Kevin have been confirmed to still be at the studio.

Interesting news. Thanks for sharing.

ID Software put out a statement out yesterday saying the same: the studio is now the same size as when they made the Doom 2016 reboot which was a giant hit. It seems the strategy with Xbox is to get teams back to pre-covid hire spree many companies did.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/doom/id-software-statement-layoffs

Still curious for that roadmap. With a smaller team more focus is needed. So personally I would scrap temporary experimental content first and expand the game with permanent and meaningful additions while also focus on continuing the class reworks. Fluff that takes an enormous amount of engineering work and time like cross play should be put on hold IMO in favour of stuff all players benefit from.

Just wanted to follow up on this as well. We are planning a revised roadmap, however as noted above, Nick and Susan are working on timing and taking care of our team, in what has been understandably a difficult week.

The plan is still to deliver great content, and we will hopefully have an update soon. Just wanted to thank everyone for the kind words and concern for everyone at the studio and everyone impacted by layoffs. We know that everyone appreciates it.

Also apologies for any delay in follow up from me this week here on the forum. I'm currently at the Tavern.

Thanks for the heads up Kevin.

Please if you have a chance give our love to Kai.

ZOS_Kevin · July 11

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up Kevin.

Please if you have a chance give our love to Kai.

Absolutely will pass that on to him.

ApoAlaia · July 11

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up Kevin.

Please if you have a chance give our love to Kai.

Absolutely will pass that on to him.

Thank you

Pink_E_808 · July 11

Anyone that is upset over what the time frame is for future content rn, like, fu. Don't stop your subs. Don't stop supporting the game, they NEED the support more now than ever.

seskah · July 11

Only in corporate America can we cut off our noses to spite our face.

Thank you, Kevin and Team for all you do and prayers to everyone affected.

Firstmep · July 11

Pink_E_808 wrote: »

Anyone that is upset over what the time frame is for future content rn, like, fu. Don't stop your subs. Don't stop supporting the game, they NEED the support more now than ever.

I think we can absolutely be upset at the people who decided to lay off half the dev team of a financially successful MMO.

ADarklore · July 11

Isn't this exactly how the end of New World started? Layoffs here... layoffs there... until there was barely anyone left. Then even after they produced an awesome piece of content... Amazon pulled the plug anyway. It's pretty clear IMO that Microsoft regrets all the gaming investment- considering their push for AI... and considering the new head of gaming came from an AI department and was never a gamer. It's interesting how they say their focus, in part, is on the Elder Scrolls franchise, and yet they pull the rug out from under the Elder Scrolls franchise. ES6 isn't even expected until maybe 2028-2029, so why scuttle ESO now, especially when it's still making money? My guess is, they are planning to wind down ALL their gaming investments over time. In an era when studies have shown that Gen-Z isn't interested in AAA games and only wants mobile or retro games, the future of AAA games and gaming in general is in dire straits. NO studio would even be interested in purchasing another in the current climate, so the only thing Microsoft can do is wind things down, take a loss, and hope that AI investment makes up for it. Sad.

hiyde · July 11

baratron wrote: »

Some good news for a change. This is important.

According to both Jason Barnes (Associate Design Director) and Jessica Folsom (Associate Director of Community Management), Zenimax Online Studios is now at the same size as it was when they made both Wrothgar and Summerset.

I am mystified why the sentence I bolded above isn't part of an original post, right now, from staff, pinned to the top of this forum. Everyone who wasn't at the tavern deserved to hear these words directly from the same people at the same time it was said at the event.

Here's what a staff that size delivered between (and including) Wrothgar to Summerset (this is MASSIVE amounts of content):

Late 2015
- August: Imperial City (PvPvE Zone, White-Gold Tower & Imperial City Prison dungeons)
- November: Orsinium (Wrothgar Zone, 30-hour storyline, Maelstrom Arena)

2016
- March: Thieves Guild (Hew's Bane Zone, Thieves Guild skill line, Maw of Lorkhaj Trial)
- May: Dark Brotherhood (Gold Coast Zone, Dark Brotherhood skill line)
- August: Shadows of the Hist (Cradle of Shadows & Ruins of Mazzatun dungeons)

2017
- June: Morrowind Chapter (Vvardenfell Zone, Warden class, Battlegrounds PvP, Halls of Fabrication Trial)
- August: Horns of the Reach (Bloodroot Forge & Falkreath Hold dungeons)
- October: Clockwork City (Clockwork City Zone, Asylum Sanctorum Trial)

2018
- February: Dragon Bones (Scalecaller Peak & Fang Lair dungeons)
- June: Summerset Chapter (Summerset Isle Zone, Psijic Order skill line, Jewelry Crafting, Cloudrest Trial)
- August: Wolfhunter (Moon Hunter Keep & March of Sacrifices dungeons)
- October: Murkmire (Murkmire Zone, Blackrose Prison arena)

Eldovar · July 11

hiyde wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

Some good news for a change. This is important.

According to both Jason Barnes (Associate Design Director) and Jessica Folsom (Associate Director of Community Management), Zenimax Online Studios is now at the same size as it was when they made both Wrothgar and Summerset.

I am mystified why the sentence I bolded above isn't part of an original post, right now, from staff, pinned to the top of this forum. Everyone who wasn't at the tavern deserved to hear these words directly from the same people at the same time it was said at the event.

Here's what a staff that size delivered between (and including) Wrothgar to Summerset (this is MASSIVE amounts of content):

This makes me also think about the reverse question: why did we get so less content the past years when they had more people than ever, help of AI tools and other modern technology on top of funding by Microsoft. The amount of dungeons was only half (and none this year), Q4 zone was scrapped a while ago, with no new zone this year, no new companions, no tales deck, no new classes or weapons, etc

I think at some point too many resources must have gone to project blackbird I assume. I hope we can go back to content deliveries of those years at some point.

Dragonredux · July 11

Pink_E_808 wrote: »

Anyone that is upset over what the time frame is for future content rn, like, fu. Don't stop your subs. Don't stop supporting the game, they NEED the support more now than ever.

People have the right to do whatever with their own money.

Syldras · July 11

Do we know how much content for the Daedric War story arc (Morrowind, CWC, Summerset) was already pre-planned during base game development (which took many years)? I remember replaying base game stories and getting the impression that there were quite a few aspects that already hinted at what we later got in the Daedric War story. What I mean is: They might have not started development of those chapters from scratch each year, but might already have had lots of material/content available what was already produced earlier.

Seraphayel · July 11

Eldovar wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

Some good news for a change. This is important.

According to both Jason Barnes (Associate Design Director) and Jessica Folsom (Associate Director of Community Management), Zenimax Online Studios is now at the same size as it was when they made both Wrothgar and Summerset.

I am mystified why the sentence I bolded above isn't part of an original post, right now, from staff, pinned to the top of this forum. Everyone who wasn't at the tavern deserved to hear these words directly from the same people at the same time it was said at the event.

Here's what a staff that size delivered between (and including) Wrothgar to Summerset (this is MASSIVE amounts of content):

This makes me also think about the reverse question: why did we get so less content the past years when they had more people than ever, help of AI tools and other modern technology on top of funding by Microsoft. The amount of dungeons was only half (and none this year), Q4 zone was scrapped a while ago, with no new zone this year, no new companions, no tales deck, no new classes or weapons, etc

I think at some point too many resources must have gone to project blackbird I assume. I hope we can go back to content deliveries of those years at some point.

Companies hired way too many people after COVID. All of them, but mainly tech companies. They got bloated and slow and you see that by the output of basically all of these studios. More people than ever, but less developed / produced games. More doesn’t mean better.

I‘m still hopeful for ESO‘s future, I just think they need to rearrange some things and everything will be fine. Often too many cooks spoil the broth and I fear this was also the case with ZOS / ESO (which is not meant as an excuse for the layoffs, by the way, just another point of view).

If they continue this year with the same sentiment and verve and keep communication up (which drastically improved this year), I think we don’t have to worry.

JTorus · July 11

Syldras wrote: »

Do we know how much content for the Daedric War story arc (Morrowind, CWC, Summerset) was already pre-planned during base game development (which took many years)? I remember replaying base game stories and getting the impression that there were quite a few aspects that already hinted at what we later got in the Daedric War story. What I mean is: They might have not started development of those chapters from scratch each year, but might already have had lots of material/content available what was already produced earlier.

This is undoubtedly what took place and how codenames for these expansions were datamined. Remember, ZOS has endured layoffs in the past. Whatever team built the infrastructure and tooling has long dispersed or been pared back. What was left were stewards.

Most are viewing this whole thing through the wrong (emotional) lens. A mixture of publicly traded parent companies managing their privately owned subsidiaries. Contracts and legalese, policies and procedures, boards, etc. In short, MS cut their losses by parting with some studios and provided opportunities for others to restructure.

Swen Vincke told everyone how to realize success (for now). Maybe someone (besides us) listened.

Just because positions were vacated does not mean new talent can't be brought in. 'Budget Reasons' is a very fun and flexible word in the business world. You can do a lot with it. (100% Legally)

Gabriel_H · July 11

The sky has been falling every day since 2014. Eventually they will be right, but not because they had some sage like knowledge, simply because they just kept saying the sky is falling, and history teaches us that everything ends.

Pixiepumpkin · July 11

ADarklore wrote: »

Isn't this exactly how the end of New World started? Layoffs here... layoffs there... until there was barely anyone left. Then even after they produced an awesome piece of content... Amazon pulled the plug anyway. It's pretty clear IMO that Microsoft regrets all the gaming investment- considering their push for AI... and considering the new head of gaming came from an AI department and was never a gamer. It's interesting how they say their focus, in part, is on the Elder Scrolls franchise, and yet they pull the rug out from under the Elder Scrolls franchise. ES6 isn't even expected until maybe 2028-2029, so why scuttle ESO now, especially when it's still making money? My guess is, they are planning to wind down ALL their gaming investments over time. In an era when studies have shown that Gen-Z isn't interested in AAA games and only wants mobile or retro games, the future of AAA games and gaming in general is in dire straits. NO studio would even be interested in purchasing another in the current climate, so the only thing Microsoft can do is wind things down, take a loss, and hope that AI investment makes up for it. Sad.

This is my guess as well. The last New World update proved to be hugely popular (even if half done/not complete). Yet AGS is still shutting the game down. Jan 2027 it goes offline completely.

The devs working on ESO have passion for the project, the ones calling the shots up top do not. They care about ROI and right now they can get better ROI in other areas. The game industry has already peaked and has been declining for years.

MS job first and foremost is to make money, I don't think they much care how and if they feel that shutting down every game they own will allow them to invest that money into something more profitable, they will do it in a heartbeat. Just like AGS.

Live service games are slowing down. Gaming going forward will be left to the passionate and small studios, most of which will not be publically traded.

The issue with many ESO players is that they think their IP is larger than it is. I saw someone the other day claim ESO has made more than wow (when in fact its not even made 10% of what wow has made). ESO for all intents and purposes borders on being niche.

Gabriel_H · July 11

Luneca wrote: »

So, this was not a surprise. Again, who is the graphics programmer right now?

They will have several, spread out over several studios, with none of them working directly for ZOS, because that's how companies gain efficiency while still maintaining output.

It's already been noted in this thread by ZOS that a revised roadmap is coming. Emphasis on the coming part. It's still happening.