werwolf is op nerf the damage and the Movement speed

The Uninvited · July 4

Militan1404 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Not to mention there had been a decrease in WW population lately lol.

Since they removed the SPS mythic, werewolf population has dropped in 3 days.

No, are we playing the same game? they are still everywhere and still as strong as ever, ww dont need the mytich to be extremely strong

I don't know, maybe you play on PC/NA? On PC/EU there are suddenly a lot less werewolves in Cyrodiil since the mythic nerf. Also, I never said they needed the mythic. Yes, they are still strong. It's just an observation.

dark_hunterxmg · July 4

I don't think we are all playing the same game. DK and Sorcerer are stronger than WW. Both have real burst damage, have more healing, shielding, mobility, cc that doesn't care about LoS, cc that doesn't have a delay to cast. Maybe we just fight different levels of players?

The Uninvited · July 4

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

I don't think we are all playing the same game. DK and Sorcerer are stronger than WW. Both have real burst damage, have more healing, shielding, mobility, cc that doesn't care about LoS, cc that doesn't have a delay to cast. Maybe we just fight different levels of players?

This!

Tonturri · July 5

I have a thought.

ZOS wants WW to be feasible for magicka builds. This is fine, although I think not a great idea considering how much functionality they're trying to cram into WW at this point (DPS, tank, still works for mag oriented base builds, has p much every buff it needs, etc) and how vampire is almost entirely magicka oriented (with the exception of one morph that makes the spammable cost health, so it's open to everyone - which is neat!).

Anyway. Make the heal restore a flat amount of stamina, which would buff it for magicka builds and possibly nerf it a little for stam builds or keep it the same. Remove the health based scaling for the stam return. Increase skill costs by 20-30%, probably more, and the gap closer by 50-100%. Next, adjust Master of the Chase to have a flat stam return in addition to the base restore, which'll help scale it a bit more for mag builds. Reduce the % bonus and add in a flat bonus so it's still the same value for a typical stam build (25-30k stam) but better for mag builds that have a lower max stam pool.

Then remove the execute scaling and sundered on Rip and Tear and see how things settle. If need be, convert the 15% stam recovery the ult provides into a flat bonus as well. I imagine a mag werewolf might heavy attack a bit more than a stam WW, but ultimately I think that's a completely fair trade-off for having WW be fairly functional for a mag build.

I also think Rip and Tear should only increase healing by 25% from Blood Hunger, or perhaps consuming blood hunger with the skill adds a small HoT or something, but the 25% damage boost should only be available on the other morph. But that might be a bit much to change all at once and I'd really like to see ZOS doing multiple balancing taps instead of multiple bonks or a single hammerblow. Alternatives include keeping Sundered but removing major breach, keeping major breach but removed sundered, reducing the execute scaling on Rip and Tear but having it be higher on the other morph, etc.

Militan1404 · July 5

Werewolf is supossed to be a curse, make it feel like a curse. Right now all the perks beeing a ww far out shines the drawbacks, make fighters guilds and poison do 100%+ more damage to them. Then adjust them back a few inches, no builds relaying on one bar should preform better than two bar builds.

gammelscroll · July 5

Usureki wrote: »

Werewolf has passive healing from its Rip and Tear which many use as BOTH spammable and execute.
Bloodclaws applies a HoT based on DoT, that also applies status effects.
Insatiable hunger gives the WW a heal advantage in situations when other players are already dead, probably because WW as already overpowering them, making the gap even wider.
Hircine's Fortitude gives crazy heals, with other juicy effects.
All of these are based on Max health, so while a Magicka user has to invest in Spell Damage and sacrifice defensive capabilities, a WW can simply be Tanky AND increase their self heal power.

You are talking about counter play?

This is utter nonsense.
Werewolf is broken and whoever implemented it had the mindset of a five year old receiving their very first hammer in a porcelain shop.

Aaah the DK main speaking. The ironi

gammelscroll · July 5

Yea. All players get wrect from sorcs and dk meta in BG now. And people are still here complaining about ww, when i almost never see ww in BGs anymore....

gammelscroll · July 5

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

Werewolf has passive healing from its Rip and Tear which many use as BOTH spammable and execute.
Bloodclaws applies a HoT based on DoT, that also applies status effects.
Insatiable hunger gives the WW a heal advantage in situations when other players are already dead, probably because WW as already overpowering them, making the gap even wider.
Hircine's Fortitude gives crazy heals, with other juicy effects.
All of these are based on Max health, so while a Magicka user has to invest in Spell Damage and sacrifice defensive capabilities, a WW can simply be Tanky AND increase their self heal power.

You are talking about counter play?

This is utter nonsense.
Werewolf is broken and whoever implemented it had the mindset of a five year old receiving their very first hammer in a porcelain shop.

This reads like it was written by someone who hasn't played Werewolf. Have you actually tried to hit a moving player with blood claws? It is supposed to be an aoe, but it doesn't connect to the target more than half the time, it only lasts 6 seconds, and heals based on damage done. Not exactly a Vigor or even close to it.
The burst heal is not some crazy heal. It is significantly worse than last patch and will not keep a werewolf alive on its own. My tool tip is 33% less than last patch. The cost is lower, but it has to be cast more often.
Rip and Tear is not the only skill in the game that has a heal return. Flame Lash is doing this too, but it hits harder and has Aoe damage. I do think some of that healing value should be moved over to the burst heal though. The execute scaling isn't all it's cracked up to be. Only the second half scales, but the skill doesn't hit hard to begin with. You'd be lucky to hit for 6k total with execute scaling against a good player.

Sorcerer and DK are the counter to Werewolf. Both have more utility, healing options, and actually have burst damage.

Yes , meanwhile flame lash hit for 14k with pariah set and 3k crit resist. Rip and tear hits for average 4-6 k. Ww Op right. And its fun to get bursted down in one streak stun

gammelscroll · July 5

The people who are in here complaing are the average Joe with 18k Hp , light armor mix, and 200 crit resist who get one shotted in BG.

gammelscroll · July 5

12k ww heal isnt allowed? But healing soul healing for 22k is ok?

Firstmep · July 5

The Uninvited wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Not to mention there had been a decrease in WW population lately lol.

Since they removed the SPS mythic, werewolf population has dropped in 3 days.

No, are we playing the same game? they are still everywhere and still as strong as ever, ww dont need the mytich to be extremely strong

I don't know, maybe you play on PC/NA? On PC/EU there are suddenly a lot less werewolves in Cyrodiil since the mythic nerf. Also, I never said they needed the mythic. Yes, they are still strong. It's just an observation.

I'm on pc eu and every bg has multiple wws.

Firstmep · July 5

gammelscroll wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

Werewolf has passive healing from its Rip and Tear which many use as BOTH spammable and execute.
Bloodclaws applies a HoT based on DoT, that also applies status effects.
Insatiable hunger gives the WW a heal advantage in situations when other players are already dead, probably because WW as already overpowering them, making the gap even wider.
Hircine's Fortitude gives crazy heals, with other juicy effects.
All of these are based on Max health, so while a Magicka user has to invest in Spell Damage and sacrifice defensive capabilities, a WW can simply be Tanky AND increase their self heal power.

You are talking about counter play?

This is utter nonsense.
Werewolf is broken and whoever implemented it had the mindset of a five year old receiving their very first hammer in a porcelain shop.

This reads like it was written by someone who hasn't played Werewolf. Have you actually tried to hit a moving player with blood claws? It is supposed to be an aoe, but it doesn't connect to the target more than half the time, it only lasts 6 seconds, and heals based on damage done. Not exactly a Vigor or even close to it.
The burst heal is not some crazy heal. It is significantly worse than last patch and will not keep a werewolf alive on its own. My tool tip is 33% less than last patch. The cost is lower, but it has to be cast more often.
Rip and Tear is not the only skill in the game that has a heal return. Flame Lash is doing this too, but it hits harder and has Aoe damage. I do think some of that healing value should be moved over to the burst heal though. The execute scaling isn't all it's cracked up to be. Only the second half scales, but the skill doesn't hit hard to begin with. You'd be lucky to hit for 6k total with execute scaling against a good player.

Sorcerer and DK are the counter to Werewolf. Both have more utility, healing options, and actually have burst damage.

Yes , meanwhile flame lash hit for 14k with pariah set and 3k crit resist. Rip and tear hits for average 4-6 k. Ww Op right. And its fun to get bursted down in one streak stun

Rip and tear is a 2 hit skill, also ww has quite a few bleeds. On mine I have light attack bleed from berserker, savage ww, pounce bleed, claw bleed. These each tick for 1-1.5k on most target, that's per bleed btw not overall.

dark_hunterxmg · July 5

Firstmep wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

Werewolf has passive healing from its Rip and Tear which many use as BOTH spammable and execute.
Bloodclaws applies a HoT based on DoT, that also applies status effects.
Insatiable hunger gives the WW a heal advantage in situations when other players are already dead, probably because WW as already overpowering them, making the gap even wider.
Hircine's Fortitude gives crazy heals, with other juicy effects.
All of these are based on Max health, so while a Magicka user has to invest in Spell Damage and sacrifice defensive capabilities, a WW can simply be Tanky AND increase their self heal power.

You are talking about counter play?

This is utter nonsense.
Werewolf is broken and whoever implemented it had the mindset of a five year old receiving their very first hammer in a porcelain shop.

This reads like it was written by someone who hasn't played Werewolf. Have you actually tried to hit a moving player with blood claws? It is supposed to be an aoe, but it doesn't connect to the target more than half the time, it only lasts 6 seconds, and heals based on damage done. Not exactly a Vigor or even close to it.
The burst heal is not some crazy heal. It is significantly worse than last patch and will not keep a werewolf alive on its own. My tool tip is 33% less than last patch. The cost is lower, but it has to be cast more often.
Rip and Tear is not the only skill in the game that has a heal return. Flame Lash is doing this too, but it hits harder and has Aoe damage. I do think some of that healing value should be moved over to the burst heal though. The execute scaling isn't all it's cracked up to be. Only the second half scales, but the skill doesn't hit hard to begin with. You'd be lucky to hit for 6k total with execute scaling against a good player.

Sorcerer and DK are the counter to Werewolf. Both have more utility, healing options, and actually have burst damage.

Yes , meanwhile flame lash hit for 14k with pariah set and 3k crit resist. Rip and tear hits for average 4-6 k. Ww Op right. And its fun to get bursted down in one streak stun

Rip and tear is a 2 hit skill, also ww has quite a few bleeds. On mine I have light attack bleed from berserker, savage ww, pounce bleed, claw bleed. These each tick for 1-1.5k on most target, that's per bleed btw not overall.

I would have to see that to believe it. 4k-6k dps on Werewolf bleed dots alone? Maybe a target dummy.

IZZEFlameLash · July 5

Militan1404 wrote: »

Werewolf is supossed to be a curse, make it feel like a curse. Right now all the perks beeing a ww far out shines the drawbacks, make fighters guilds and poison do 100%+ more damage to them. Then adjust them back a few inches, no builds relaying on one bar should preform better than two bar builds.

Since we are discussing something to be a curse and that it should affect balancing. Vampires should not be active during the day time of Tamriel when they receive rework (if they plan on it at all). After all, it's a curse that had been a thing in previous TES games.

And no, Werewolf does not perform any better than two bar builds. Meta Sorc/DK builds actually melt anything in PvP outside of another meta Sorc/DK builds.

Luneca · July 5

The Uninvited wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Not to mention there had been a decrease in WW population lately lol.

Since they removed the SPS mythic, werewolf population has dropped in 3 days.

No, are we playing the same game? they are still everywhere and still as strong as ever, ww dont need the mytich to be extremely strong

I don't know, maybe you play on PC/NA? On PC/EU there are suddenly a lot less werewolves in Cyrodiil since the mythic nerf. Also, I never said they needed the mythic. Yes, they are still strong. It's just an observation.

There's no real difference between what WW could achieve with and without the Signet because the people saying it was only the mythic either didn't understand the game or purposely obfuscated reality. HP% healing and all of that compression into the small number of skills makes it OP. That's a fact, mythic or not.

And it's why there's no real difference in performance. As I've said elsewhere, it doesn't matter because the "ceiling" of what it is able to do still hasn't been discovered yet by the masses on live.

gammelscroll wrote: »

12k ww heal isnt allowed? But healing soul healing for 22k is ok?

It's not about how much you can heal in isolation, but the overall power of a build. If I heal 1/2 of my opponent's heal, but they can only damage me 1/6th of the HP my heal restores in any unit of time, I don't need a stronger heal -- they aren't going to kill me.

It goes back to players not understanding that healing isn't the actual problem in the game, damage reduction and HP stacking is. On the surface, players like to blame healing. But if you healed for a trillion HP it wouldn't matter without the damage reduction behind it.

WW has more than one damage reduction buff and mechanism, along with healing. The offense also combines healing, saving actions in a unit of time which can be translated to more damage and more healing , which essentially in reality reduces damage because your opponent cannot achieve the same thing.

You know Puncturing Sweep had it's damage nerfed many times over the years? At some point, it was possible to put on puncturing sweep and living dark and outheal damage while putting it out. ZOS nerfed templar hard and both skills. Wait, does that sound familiar?

Doing damage and and getting a significant amount healing in the same unit of time made both skills get nerfed. Yet, now in 2026, ZOS thinks differently?

Even if you make the argument that it's a new direction, just by it not following the ^ above rules that were established, it literally proves it's OP and a problem until the ruleset becomes balanced for everyone.

I don't believe anyone that thinks WW and DK are balanced truly understand combat in the game. And if they do, they obviously just have a vested interest in keeping the game's balance bad. Because if they've paid attention, they'd know that both DK and WW are outliers precisely because they aren't following the same ruleset everyone else is.

Militan1404 · July 5

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Werewolf is supossed to be a curse, make it feel like a curse. Right now all the perks beeing a ww far out shines the drawbacks, make fighters guilds and poison do 100%+ more damage to them. Then adjust them back a few inches, no builds relaying on one bar should preform better than two bar builds.

Since we are discussing something to be a curse and that it should affect balancing. Vampires should not be active during the day time of Tamriel when they receive rework (if they plan on it at all). After all, it's a curse that had been a thing in previous TES games.

And no, Werewolf does not perform any better than two bar builds. Meta Sorc/DK builds actually melt anything in PvP outside of another meta Sorc/DK builds.

If you going that particular then fine, guess then i only have to see WW once every full moon so win for me.

Well thats the matter of opinion then i guess, most confess i havent meet these insaine OP sorcs everyones on about. And now after class masterys came out i actually dont find DK that bad anymore, dont get me wrong they are still strong as heck. Werewolves tho is a diffrent breed, both in pvp and pve, in pvp on a ww its really like wearing crutches you know you would overwhelm your opponent in the end and they would die, and if its an 1v1 they have no chance. Also in pve i was shocked how fast and easly i could burn down bosses solo i that i couldnt do on other characters, nothing else can even compare for it in solo pve. And all this is even on one bar witch is insaine.

IZZEFlameLash · July 6

Militan1404 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Werewolf is supossed to be a curse, make it feel like a curse. Right now all the perks beeing a ww far out shines the drawbacks, make fighters guilds and poison do 100%+ more damage to them. Then adjust them back a few inches, no builds relaying on one bar should preform better than two bar builds.

Since we are discussing something to be a curse and that it should affect balancing. Vampires should not be active during the day time of Tamriel when they receive rework (if they plan on it at all). After all, it's a curse that had been a thing in previous TES games.

And no, Werewolf does not perform any better than two bar builds. Meta Sorc/DK builds actually melt anything in PvP outside of another meta Sorc/DK builds.

If you going that particular then fine, guess then i only have to see WW once every full moon so win for me.

Well thats the matter of opinion then i guess, most confess i havent meet these insaine OP sorcs everyones on about. And now after class masterys came out i actually dont find DK that bad anymore, dont get me wrong they are still strong as heck. Werewolves tho is a diffrent breed, both in pvp and pve, in pvp on a ww its really like wearing crutches you know you would overwhelm your opponent in the end and they would die, and if its an 1v1 they have no chance. Also in pve i was shocked how fast and easly i could burn down bosses solo i that i couldnt do on other characters, nothing else can even compare for it in solo pve. And all this is even on one bar witch is insaine.

If you do encounter sweats donning meta runvx Sorc/DK builds, you will 100% just melt like no other. All it takes is a single stun and you being unable to break free for 2 seconds for whatever reason despite having plenty stamina to do so. The single fastest 100 to 0 outside of multiple siege DoTs ticking on you. This is not something a single werewolf is capable of unless they are exploiting something like gaining weapon and spell damage beyond intended (something Skinnycheeks have pointed out when someone was like 'but but werewolf op cuz my friend parsed 314k with SPS WW'. Given that recently, ZOS has fixed the exploit of re-speccing while in WW form to activate passives, I am sure there are more like that out there being unreported but exploited).

Firstmep · July 6

Luneca wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Not to mention there had been a decrease in WW population lately lol.

Since they removed the SPS mythic, werewolf population has dropped in 3 days.

No, are we playing the same game? they are still everywhere and still as strong as ever, ww dont need the mytich to be extremely strong

I don't know, maybe you play on PC/NA? On PC/EU there are suddenly a lot less werewolves in Cyrodiil since the mythic nerf. Also, I never said they needed the mythic. Yes, they are still strong. It's just an observation.

There's no real difference between what WW could achieve with and without the Signet because the people saying it was only the mythic either didn't understand the game or purposely obfuscated reality. HP% healing and all of that compression into the small number of skills makes it OP. That's a fact, mythic or not.

And it's why there's no real difference in performance. As I've said elsewhere, it doesn't matter because the "ceiling" of what it is able to do still hasn't been discovered yet by the masses on live.

gammelscroll wrote: »

12k ww heal isnt allowed? But healing soul healing for 22k is ok?

It's not about how much you can heal in isolation, but the overall power of a build. If I heal 1/2 of my opponent's heal, but they can only damage me 1/6th of the HP my heal restores in any unit of time, I don't need a stronger heal -- they aren't going to kill me.

It goes back to players not understanding that healing isn't the actual problem in the game, damage reduction and HP stacking is. On the surface, players like to blame healing. But if you healed for a trillion HP it wouldn't matter without the damage reduction behind it.

WW has more than one damage reduction buff and mechanism, along with healing. The offense also combines healing, saving actions in a unit of time which can be translated to more damage and more healing , which essentially in reality reduces damage because your opponent cannot achieve the same thing.

You know Puncturing Sweep had it's damage nerfed many times over the years? At some point, it was possible to put on puncturing sweep and living dark and outheal damage while putting it out. ZOS nerfed templar hard and both skills. Wait, does that sound familiar?

Doing damage and and getting a significant amount healing in the same unit of time made both skills get nerfed. Yet, now in 2026, ZOS thinks differently?

Even if you make the argument that it's a new direction, just by it not following the ^ above rules that were established, it literally proves it's OP and a problem until the ruleset becomes balanced for everyone.

I don't believe anyone that thinks WW and DK are balanced truly understand combat in the game. And if they do, they obviously just have a vested interest in keeping the game's balance bad. Because if they've paid attention, they'd know that both DK and WW are outliers precisely because they aren't following the same ruleset everyone else is.

Also keep in mind that on rip and tear the heal is not based on the damage done so it can actually crit, whereas puncturing sweeps heal can't.

gammelscroll · July 6

Just keep crying guys.. Microsoft is firing 3200 from.dev team. Half their studio.
Pts delayed, reworke delayed. If there will be anything at all. No more pvp.patches
Gg

The Uninvited · July 6

gammelscroll wrote: »

Just keep crying guys.. Microsoft is firing 3200 from.dev team. Half their studio.
Pts delayed, reworke delayed. If there will be anything at all. No more pvp.patches
Gg

They are firing 3200 in total, spread out over all gaming divisions related to XBoX. Not 3200 from just Zenimax, there's not even 3200 people working at Zenimax.

gammelscroll · July 6

The Uninvited wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

Just keep crying guys.. Microsoft is firing 3200 from.dev team. Half their studio.
Pts delayed, reworke delayed. If there will be anything at all. No more pvp.patches
Gg

They are firing 3200 in total, spread out over all gaming divisions related to XBoX. Not 3200 from just Zenimax, there's not even 3200 people working at Zenimax.

And? There will be no reworke or nothing anymore. So who cares where those guys got fired

Nordstern · July 7

gammelscroll wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

Just keep crying guys.. Microsoft is firing 3200 from.dev team. Half their studio.
Pts delayed, reworke delayed. If there will be anything at all. No more pvp.patches
Gg

They are firing 3200 in total, spread out over all gaming divisions related to XBoX. Not 3200 from just Zenimax, there's not even 3200 people working at Zenimax.

And? There will be no reworke or nothing anymore. So who cares where those guys got fired

You have no idea so why are you posting this? Bored?

NxJoeyD · July 11

hoangdz wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

You can't really talk sense into WW mains at this point because they are incredibly biased. WW is out there breaking every known balance metrics of PvP:

Survivability - 45-48k HP with HP scaling heals and synergy with class mastery passives
Sustain - Limitless sustain with skills costing practically nothing and a burst heal restoring stam back
Damage - 6k+ DPS in a beefier build, and 9-10k in a pure damage build
Mobility - Permanent Major Expedition, so max movement speed is within reach.

A normal build with 45-48k HP, high survivability, unlimited sustain, and high mobility that can also deal 6k-10k DPS shouldn't exist. That build is reserved for emperors in a specific campaign. Yet, we have WWs capable of those stats and performance.

At this stage, it's not a question of whether WW is overperforming or not because objectively, IT IS. Every argument from the WW community can be easily dismantled with simple in-game data. Rather, it's a question of whether people have the integrity to acknowledge that their class is imbalanced. It appears to me that the majority of the WW playerbase does not have that capacity. Every time an argument gets countered, the goal post also gets shifted. So, enjoy the next 3 months of fighting nigh-unkillable WWs in Cyrodiil and BGs. You can join them or quit the game for a couple of months until your class gets reworked.

Same could be said to those who do not main WW. You guys come to the forums complaining about ww being super OP without a shred of evidence backing it up.. no logs, no screenshots of death recaps... nothing.

If you think that WW are SUPER op right now and they are unable to be killed.. why is it that last night on my “Unkillable” 48KHP (fully buffed up) WW with over 20k resistance, that Dks (Most OP class in the game right now) were the main class killing me? Here is a screenshot of my death recap.

Are you getting these kinds of numbers from a WW on your death recap? If so, let's see it

BOTH WW and DKs are overperforming, and both need adjustments.

100% agreed. Not nerfed into oblivion but some adjustments are needed.

In order to smooth either of them out the new team is really going to need to have start considering PvP when carrying out these class refreshes, not just a PvE.

Usureki · July 11

I think since they were quite unable to balance stuff for PvP for quite a while, with the even greater layoffs ZOS came to a critical decision point: they will need to upgrade their game with increased development efficiency. The use of AI in the software development industry is no longer a choice of luxury, it is necessity - I'm not talking about vibe coding, I'm talking about using AI as a tool of a creative thinking human. A programmer can work 5x faster with a copilot. A visual artist can implement a graphical concept faster too. AI should not make decision and cannot make original ideas, but is is a powerful tool that ZOS must use in order to remain competitive with such a great personel loss.. because to be honest the launch of Season One with bugged Thieves Guild quests and indescribably weak proc-gen vibe Freerunner 'quests' is kind of a nail in their coffin. Whether it is the first or the last nail, is up to the team remaining with ZOS. I wish them all the strength and send them all the love they might need and I hope they also realize what they need to do. But if they continue with the same method, we will never see the end of the class refreshes, and PvP will remain the miserably bad experience it is since quite some time, for.. well.. still quite some time.