The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article

emilyhyoyeon · May 9

Syldras wrote: »

But I think what's the biggest problem for me is that it's so light in terms of story. It's just that fancy mysterious daedric realm where there are enemies (which are mostly copies from other places in Tamriel) and some weird arcade-like games for unknown reasons, and you need to kill the enemies and play the arcade games to get some favor points to be able to buy things from your faction. Well, it's actually not just light on story content, I think what bothers me more is that what's there feels random. There's a disconnect between the factions, the background story, and the actual playable content (none of the things you actually do there are really related to your faction's alleged interests and goals - unless you play for the one faction whose main identity is combat, perhaps) - it feels like the whole "story" is nothing but a colorful facade for killing bosses and playing arcade games. And that's absolutely not what I want to see from a narration. If there's a background story, I want it to be an immersive experience, want it to make sense as a whole, and tasks and story should clearly be logically connected.

I also noticed again how important, for me personally, it is that what I'm doing in game has some meaning in the game world. Just running around randomly killing something for points... It bores me. First and foremost, I'm a roleplayer in the traditional sense - I want to partake in some kind of fantasy narration with my character. Also, I want to learn about the fictional world and its people, and at best, what I read or see even makes me think about it. So, it's basically the same issue here that I also had with the Archive: It was fun to see everything once when it was new, but after that, there's nothing that interests me about it (in the Archive it also just became a grind for the currency then, because I needed it to buy those book furnishings I wanted; and in this case it will turn into a grind for extra housing rooms and furnishings as well). But it's good of course that it exists, for the people who enjoy it. But for me personally, it's not quite it.

Your posts are soooo cathartic sometimes

I haven't seen anyone else anywhere make these points. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. It freaks me out. All the feedback, positive or negative, I've seen about the NM is related to the difficulty/grouping or the rewards. None of the negative feedback addresses what you mention here. Otherwise, it's oceans of positive feedback with things like the ''most fun someone's had in this game for years'' (I've seen this one explicitly several times).

Are the majority of ESO players now really just looking for this kind of ''arcade'' content? The concept of investing into story/writing/world building anymore, considering the NM's positive reception, cannot be looking worth it to the devs.

metheglyn · May 10

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

From everything they said about the Night Market leading up to it, I never got the idea it was going to have much story behind it. It has the central mystery: what is this place and why is it only around sometimes. But fiction mysteries that have no solution (by design) aren't really that interesting to me. It'd be one thing if, while playing through the area, people could find clues/potential answers to the mystery, if not an outright solution. But if it's just a mystery for mystery's sake, and has no real connection to the rest of the world/planes of Oblivion, I find that a bit lacking.

When the Night Market was first mentioned, I thought the focus was combat only, and there wouldn't be much lore to it. Basically like the arenas we've seen in ESO before, or the Archive. But then I heard about it having an unexpected number of lorebooks, so I did think there was some lore to it, and the player could basically discover it bit by bit by finding these documents. We know it's in Fargrave, we know the connections between Fargrave and Ithelia, so I hoped it would give us more lore on that. Sadly, it doesn't.

I think the saddest thing to me is that it's so generic. We know there's some faction striving for wealth, one about combat, one seeking for mysteries (or at least we're told that) - but these are completely meaningless labels because the quests they give are all the same anyway, and they're not even related to their alleged goals. But there's no rooting in TES lore either, not even some simple "We are daedra of Hermaeus Mora, therefore we amass secret knowledge" or "We praise Malacath through battle". They are just random people who, for unexplained reasons, want money, or knowledge, or power. It almost has something clichéd to it, a very simple depiction of the world: Like that's the three life goals people might have.

This genericity also shows up in the combat districts. We have those arcade-like games. No one knows why they are there, or why one should do them - but anyway, your faction gives you favor points for that. Specifically, the text popup tells you it's for "increasing their reputation" - by playing some random games about shooting spiders or rolling boulders or crouching through a tunnel with laser barriers?! How does anything of that has anything to do with TES?

Then we have quests. In many cases, even the quest description is just a one-liner. All very vague. Someone has left notes you need to complete. Some guy has lost whatever and you shall fetch it. Or another example:
"I found a note asking for aid in freeing caged animals captured by poachers. If I free the animals, I can return this note to a collection box on a rooftop oasis to receive payment."
While it's nice to free these animals, it's completely unclear why they are even there in this daedric realm, who they belong to, who gives you the task, or why someone caught them, or why there are even poachers inside those locations (inside some mysterious daedric realm full of dangers where you can't walk three steps without daedra trying to murder you), or how freeing these animals will really help them in that dangerous environment where within a minute some animal daedra would likely eat them (we don't even bring them into safety, despite having transported weirder things in ESO before; we just open the cages, that are surrounded by dozens of dangerous creatures, and that's it)?
Or this one:
"I found a note tacked onto a notice board telling me that the other factions put up horrible propaganda about my faction. For a reward, I can clean up the district and protect our reputation."
Who put this propaganda up and why (There's no one around except for murderous daedra, so who's going to read that?!), what did it say, and why would a faction, which are all depicted as rogue-ish, care for that anyway? It's not mysterious, it's completely random and makes no real sense. And (and that's what I actually wanted to write about): It's completely generic and not related to TES at all. The quest about removing posters spreading evil lies about someone could also take place in a science fiction story set in 2300 in some colony on Mars, in a mafia story in 1920 USA, or in some children's story taking place inside a Swiss elementary school in 2010. Even the wording mentions nothing that hints on this being a TES story, or a fantasy story. It could be any place, any era, any genre. There's not even some bit of embellishment to even make it look like it's somehow TES. It could have been easily written by someone who has never heard a single word about TES lore before. And that makes me wonder... This game did have combat-focused content before, after all, but also dungeons and trials had a story clearly connected to the world of TES.

Though there's one thing about the Market that I actually find really funny. Not sure if you have taken a look into all 3 different zones before you dropped the content, but one of them is more or less "nightmare"-themed, eternal night with werewolves, liches, ghosts, skeletons, and all that. And for some reason, some of the random enemies there are Telvanni. Probably the scariest, most nightmarish enemies they could think of.

I only ended up going into the one section--skittering something? That is funny that the Telvanni are grouped with the nightmare area.

I get the idea that the Night Market was made to promote group play in a different way from dungeons and trials. It was given a basic (very basic) story framework, but since the story and the lore aren't the point of it, those aspects didn't get much development. Surface-level quests such as you describe come across to me as what I consider "filler quests" in zones--you know: small, simple quests put in just to increase the number of quests and make it seem like there's more to do. My experience with Night Market is minimal, and will remain so, because that place just is not for me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is experimental, but since they haven't defined what they consider experimental about it, it's impossible to know what parts of it they are looking at for possible change (if it doesn't work) or iteration (if it does).

Knowing about the love for recycling, I'd not be surprised to see some of these "puzzles" again in future content. Perhaps with a different skin slapped onto them, so you don't crouch through tunnels with laser lightning traps but instead try to avoid poisoned spikes, or clouds of poisonous gas, or whatever.

Makes me wonder about the Sages Vault. Since that isn't combat-focused, put puzzle/trap focused (I think), what will that be like? Will there be a reason for the various puzzles? Or will it all be under the umbrella of: you wanted to explore, so explore? We don't know enough about it yet to have much of an idea, I'm aware. I was really hoping for puzzles with more thinking to them rather than just: can you time it right to not get hit by a thing.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So if I had to guess what they mean about "excursion zone" I would think something that is a combination of story questing in the classic style of the game, and then some evergreen content added to it. Perhaps some form of repeatable quest that isn't the usual delve/world boss/incursion repeatable; something that has more narrative cohesion to it instead of just a round of chores. Or perhaps the zone story will be time-released. (LotRO does this sometimes: they'll release a quest arc over time, usually in weekly intervals).
Or perhaps it'll just be open-world Night Market with a different name.

If I had to guess, I'd say it probably has some main story and the surrounding areas of the city could be some kind of solo player Night Market, with a puzzle here, a boss there. Generally I somehow imagine it smaller in scope and with less detail and less different quests and locations than chapters had been in the past. We don't know yet, of course. I just hope it won't disappoint the story- and exploration-focused players who, from the impression I got, seem to expect something big next year, after this year had no new permanent overland zone in the usual sense at all.

Well, it will be smaller in scope than a chapter, I'm sure. We don't even know what size area the zone will be, much less what "excursion zone" means. I also hope it won't disappoint, because new zones with great quests are my favorite thing in this game. I can be happy with great quests put in existing zones, especially if they expand on that zone's history and lore some more, but a new place to explore is top notch fun.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think Mayhem used to happen around this time of year--before the chapter release. Or was it after? Eh, I don't know. I never paid much attention to it. At least the trade bars don't expire, though, or have a cap, so you can just happily stockpile them for whenever the vendor comes back with something you want.

It's strange somehow the Impresaria didn't show up now, since you can also earn trade bars in the Night Market. Though it's strangely an extremely low number; I think some bosses can sometimes drop 2 - seems totally nonsensical to me that you'd need to kill 150 bosses to get the number of trade bars that you'd get on one day during the normal events, sometimes even by just killing one boss or even by just eating cake once a day! It made me wonder if it's a mistake or bug, or if the average player is actually supposed to kill that many bosses a day - which would feel completely off to me, or how many hours a day is one supposed to play this game?

I would guess the trade bars in the Night Market are meant to be just a little bonus thing, not a major means of acquiring them. Can you imagine the reaction if you could rake in the trade bars in Night Market? The outcry of people claiming they are "forced" to play Night Market because of trade bars? I didn't even know trade bars could drop in there (and I don't care if they do--or if they drop by the thousands) but I doubt the expectation was that anyone would farm Night Market for trade bars.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know what the exchange rate for points to gold will be, but it's unlikely to be significant enough to make chasing points worthwhile. I'm on page 7 on one account, and page 8 on another. I've not been playing a whole lot lately. It still remains to be seen whether or not I finish off the pages. If I was desperate to do so, I have tome point caches, but I'd have to be really desperate to open one of those.

I just find it weird that there was no clear announcement of the conversation rate yet. I'd think it's a topic people would care to know about. And some people already seem to have unlocked the last page now, so they're in the situation now to decide if they still want to do more chores or not.

As for the question if gold would be worth the grind... For some very easy tasks perhaps, or if it's really something one does anyway (like picking up some treasure chests or doing event quests when the next event starts), but other than that - I don't think so. Those chores take so long, one would probably get more gold in the same amount of time by just going on a stealing spree.

I saw in one thread that the conversion rate right now on PTS is 10 gold to one tome point--not sure if that's going to be what goes live. Definitely not worth the grind in that case. I've been on a playing spree the past few days, so both my accounts have unlocked page nine. Now that I'm that far in, I think it's safe to say I'll be getting the whole thing done soon enough. Once I have, and I've bought all the things I want, I can't see myself bothering with the tasks on purpose--though some might get done by chance.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

When I first started playing the game, I was mystified at how often town npcs got murdered. At that time, I didn't know about the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content that encourages such play. And though technically Thieves Guild sends you to steal, not kill, I've noticed that people often kill the npcs after stealing from them. Anyway, at first I found it a bit shocking, but that was just me being a standard rpg player.

Game mechanics. They refill/respawn faster if murdered, and many players seem to care for that more than they care for immersion or roleplaying aspects. And while they can play the game any way they like, of course, it's sometimes really not a nice experience for the more immersion-focused players (I also don't like towns full of murdered npcs much - even less so when I started playing this game and wasn't used to everyone respawning endlessly yet). Well, it's another downside of playing an MMO that one needs to live with.

Yeah, MMOs do require a lot of that kind of acceptance. I never kill the npcs I pickpocket (unless they catch me and start attacking, that is). I didn't realize that if I pickpocketed an npc, they wouldn't have anything for someone else to pickpocket. I thought they had bottomless pockets! Hah, well, I don't pickpocket that much.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I go out of my way to not kill the animals on the landscape. I wish they were all non-hostile--you know, the yellow-named mobs--because I find it quite ridiculous that every animal in Nirn is so extremely aggressive. Must be something in the water.

In a way it's an rpg trope. Also the need for enemy variety for wilderness zones - can't just be bandit type a, b and c all the time. It doesn't have much to do with reality.

I also try to avoid killing wild animals in ESO most of the time; especially if they nowhere close to cities it just makes me wonder why I would even want to disturb them while they do whatever they're doing. They pose no danger to anyone there, far away in the wilderness, and if my character is no hunter, I don't know why I should kill them for meat or pelts either. I think it's a pity I sometimes need to kill them because they are placed right next to some crafting survey spot and attack when I try to harvest the nodes.

There are some surveys that have wild animals near them, and in those cases I often wait for the animals to path away before I run up, grab the node, and scoot away before they realize I'm there and want to attack. It's my own mini-game challenge I came up with years ago. For non-survey nodes, I just don't harvest the ones with animals right next to them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's actually a bit off-putting to play a Breton through Betnikh, at least for me, especially since the over-arching story is that we're there to convince this tribe of Orcs to join the Daggerfall Covenant. So we have to solve all their island problems for them first, and of course the island problems are Worm Cult related, and then they'll lend their might (?) to the Covenant. But as far as showcasing the life and times of a tribe of colonizing Orcs, the quests are fine--there's nothing wrong with the narrative other than assuming my character has zero problem with helping this tribe that destroyed the previous Breton inhabitants of the island.

I think the game should give different dialogue options so the player can individually decide what stance their character has on events, including events of the past.

But automatically assuming that a character must still feel hatred for that happened centuries ago (and when trade relations between the former enemies have already been established for a longer time) doesn't seem logical either. If people would never recognize war atrocities that happened decades or even centuries ago as being a thing of the past, which were horrible crimes but can't be changed anymore, then the whole world would forever remain in permanent war, with no chance for peace at all. I don't want to get too deep into real-world comparisons as they might not be welcome here, I don't know, but I want to mention this, because it's a rather positive example: When the EU was founded in 1993, the Second World War (with 70 million people dead, war crimes, shifting country borders, displacement, forced labor, etc - and there was no family who was not affected by this) had been over for less than 50 years. There were even precursors of the EU already in the 1950's, but I can say that in the late 1990's, especially among younger people, there was no thinking of each other as former enemies anymore at all. It's just how things were, and the most important thing is to make sure nothing like that ever happens again. And a stable and reliable alliance is exactly one way to achieve that.

I didn't mean that all Bretons would feel hatred for what happened nine generations ago (that's the timeline given on the loading screen for Betnikh--and I'm not sure how much time that is meant to be in this game). And, unlike the real world, our characters actually experience the events of the Orc takeover as if they were there, making it seem fresher. So there's my Breton, reliving the past through some Orc's perspective, and hearing the Orcs call the Bretons 'cowards' for daring to try to fight back against the invasion and keep their home for themselves. I found it annoying, and I really wanted the chance for my Breton character to be able to express her distaste for how the Orcs acquired the island. I made no assumptions about what other characters might think about the situation.

Syldras wrote: »

Also, I'm curious now: Would "colonizing" be the correct term in English for one singular nomadic(?) orc tribe occupying a foreign kingdom's island? A colony, at least, is defined as being a remote settlement belonging to some bigger empire, which is hardly the case when we're talking about one single tribe that has no lands anywhere else.

Hmm, given that scenario, colonizing probably doesn't fit what they did. So what is the term for a nomadic, landless clan who decides an inhabited and settled island is now theirs and proceeds to drive off/murder the current inhabitants?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's the sameness of these quests that bother me, not that they're humorous or light-hearted. These npcs will never grow or change or anything. And I don't even mean that they have to become "better people." There just isn't any depth to them, and their initial character traits are the sum total of who they are. It's like they've been cursed to play out the same story on a loop wherever they go, the only changes being in the minor details of the quest. However, I'm aware that plenty of people do enjoy these characters and quests and wouldn't want them changed up. I guess it's just another case of different people like different things.

I'm not sure if character development would make it much better in these cases. I just think that some characters are generally over-used in ESO and could get a little bit less screen time. I'm also sure there are many more light-hearted stories that could be written with completely different characters and backgrounds instead of needing to rely on the same (Rigurt, Stibbons, Dren) all the time.

Well, sure, they're definitely over-used, all of them. But having them play out the same basic story every time they do show up is..well, I already said how I feel about it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering the priest only did a deal with Molag Bal in a desperate bid to save his village from the raiding Nords, it would be strange if he had planned out a ritual. The way it was presented was this: Nords attacked (no reason given); wife led the defense of the town (being the captain of the guard); husband priest stayed at home and prayed to Stendarr for help (no details on how long the attack was going on or how long he'd been praying); wife entered home to check on husband and found him talking to Molag Bal, sealing the hasty deal. It doesn't seem like he had time to perform a ritual, and since everyone in the town, both villagers and ransacking Nords alike, is now cursed with undead existence, forever living out that last day, my question remains the same: can one's soul be bargained away from them that easily?

The bigger question to me is: Why would a random person choose Molag Bal to bargain with? Would one randomly get that idea, especially if one had never anything to do with daedra worship before?

This is how this particular situation was presented: priest of Stendarr was praying for help, initially to Stendarr, and then to just anyone who would listen. Since Molag Bal was the only one who was listening (must've been a slow day in Coldharbor), he was the only one who answered, and desperate priest of Stendarr did desperate act. So the priest didn't choose Molag Bal so much as just take the only entity who showed up. Why he thought he could get any help from Molag Bal is a different question--but we don't know what Molag Bal said to him, after all. We don't get those details.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Are the majority of ESO players now really just looking for this kind of ''arcade'' content? The concept of investing into story/writing/world building anymore, considering the NM's positive reception, cannot be looking worth it to the devs.

I hope Night Market isn't giving the developers such an idea--that "arcade" content is more popular than the classic story and world building content the game was built upon. As a thing that exists as one way to play amidst all the other ways to play, Night Market is fine; if it becomes some kind of template for more and more future content, I'd be pretty upset.

Syldras · July 6

@emilyhyoyeon @metheglyn So, first of all, I'm sorry for the long absence! I've been ill, then busy, then ill again; now it's not even 2 days anymore until the next story release - the Thieves Guild questline - , and later this month, there will also be the Sheogorath storyline, plus some few smaller releases that will probably have some kind of narrative background (hoping it will be more than what we've seen in the Night Market, which was barely anything when it comes to actual background story and lore, and which also gave me some kind of general ESO fatigue, to be honest - though that really wasn't the reason I had been absent).

Considering the bad news from earlier today (What news to return to these forums to!), I'm wondering: Do we want to continue discussing the writing and story content here? As in going through the new storylines, which are coming soon, together and discussing what comes to our mind?

Even if we keep it positive, as in voicing what we liked, and what we'd love to see, I'm honestly not even sure anymore if there will be any future narrative content releases? Just being honest about my current thoughts.

(Side note: Why ESO fatique? The lack of story of the Night Market, and the way how what we got presented there in terms of worldbuilding/lore felt so strangely random. The grind. The focus on so many chore-like activities, including the tome and golden pursuits. Overland difficulty also not interesting me. Also becoming a bit wary about the Sages Vault, since it sounded like searching for levers or buttons or similar was a big part of it, which isn't my idea of "puzzles" = things that actually make me use my brain, not just run around searching things. But anyway, when it comes to future content - what we might still get and when - we're not really in the situation to be able to discuss these things now anyway, anymore.)

ArchangelIsraphel · July 6

~A wild bosmer has appeared~

Syldras, I'm sorry to hear you've been ill, I hope you're doing better and that things are looking up for you. I've always valued your insights, along with many others who have shared their opinions here.

I just wanted to poke my head into this thread to say I'm happy to see that it's still around. The future may be uncertain, but I think the discussion you've all been having here has been of great benefit to the community as a whole. I've been reading along whenever I get a chance, even if I haven't had time to participate in the kind of discussions I used to get involved in. I personally believe that the valuable opinions to be had in well-informed threads like this can be a boon to the dev team as they move forward, especially now. (Providing they are reading. >.>; )

Also, I had similar feelings regarding the storyline of the Night Market. I enjoyed the general feeling/mechanics of what they were trying to accomplish (it felt like a strange PVE version of Cyrodiil, if I'm honest, which I liked) but I did find it rather repetitive after the first week or so, and in need of a lot of improvement. The story itself was...well, like you said, really random. I had a lot of trouble liking any of the leaders, and I found it difficult to connect their goals/reason for being there within the greater overarching story. Their motivations were very basic when compared to faction leaders in other stories. Greed, power, money...such standard mortal fare in a zone meant to be a demiplane of Oblivion. I suppose it's just because it's an event zone and most of us are there to gain benefits from it, after all. But I do wish they'd have come up with some more...exotic motivations? Especially for the daedra.

It just seemed very half-finished, but at least it was a little better than those random "tourist" quests we'd been getting for zone events.

Not to be too negative in the light of everything that's going on at the moment, but I'd thought I'd throw in my two cents, especially when I enjoyed the event generally, and would like to see them work to make improvements on it.

Syldras · July 6

@ArchangelIsraphel

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

~A wild bosmer has appeared~
Syldras, I'm sorry to hear you've been ill, I hope you're doing better and that things are looking up for you. I've always valued your insights, along with many others who have shared their opinions here.
I just wanted to poke my head into this thread to say I'm happy to see that it's still around. The future may be uncertain, but I think the discussion you've all been having here has been of great benefit to the community as a whole.

Thank you!

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I've been reading along whenever I get a chance, even if I haven't had time to participate in the kind of discussions I used to get involved in. I personally believe that the valuable opinions to be had in well-informed threads like this can be a boon to the dev team as they move forward, especially now. (Providing they are reading. >.>; )

I know that devs have read the forums in the past year or so and picked up feedback and ideas from them. But I'm wondering how much leeway there will even be in the future to be open for player suggestions, or how strict the directives from above might be now. Obviously, I don't know. What I can say is that it would be a sad change especially after the past year seemed to have worked so well in many cases when it came to feedback and communication. It felt like a real improvement - I'd hate to see that gone again.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Also, I had similar feelings regarding the storyline of the Night Market. I enjoyed the general feeling/mechanics of what they were trying to accomplish (it felt like a strange PVE version of Cyrodiil, if I'm honest, which I liked) but I did find it rather repetitive after the first week or so, and in need of a lot of improvement. The story itself was...well, like you said, really random. I had a lot of trouble liking any of the leaders, and I found it difficult to connect their goals/reason for being there within the greater overarching story. Their motivations were very basic when compared to faction leaders in other stories. Greed, power, money...such standard mortal fare in a zone meant to be a demiplane of Oblivion. I suppose it's just because it's an event zone and most of us are there to gain benefits from it, after all. But I do wish they'd have come up with some more...exotic motivations? Especially for the daedra.

It felt trope-y to me. Basic/standard motivations indeed (and nothing specifically for daedra where possibilities could be endless!); As if the thought had been: "What life goals do people have (in a somehow clichéd way)? Let's make a faction each for that!" - At least that was how it felt to me. One could say, once more (I've also criticized that in the Solstice year with black-and-white goodie/baddie characters and over-the-top evilness for the sake of being evil): Cartoony. The power-hungy brute. The wealth-loving hedonist. The mysterious gloomy knowledge-seeker. If you seek power without being brutish or care for collecting knowledge without dressing like a hobo the world will explode. To me, relying on clichés makes a narration feel less serious. Like a joke somehow. It doesn't help with immersing and creating actual feelings towards what happens in the story. Which is something that I care for a lot, being a roleplayer.

Well, if others agree, I think we can continue discussing. I can babble on basically forever. Like: Why did I find this in the Night Market, where did it even come from?!

And also, lately I learnt about the term "background show" - tv shows deliberately created for people not actually watching but just perhaps listening to it on the side while doing something completely different. A horrible concept and, for me, not really compatible with serious quality writing. We could discuss now how often stories - for movies, shows or games - might be written like that today, believing that the average consumer is not actually watching or listening anymore (but busy watching whatever on a second screen or staring at their phone). It was a thought I had regularly, thinking of all those dialogue repetations in ESO, for example.

metheglyn · July 6

Syldras wrote: »

@emilyhyoyeon @metheglyn So, first of all, I'm sorry for the long absence! I've been ill, then busy, then ill again; now it's not even 2 days anymore until the next story release - the Thieves Guild questline - , and later this month, there will also be the Sheogorath storyline, plus some few smaller releases that will probably have some kind of narrative background (hoping it will be more than what we've seen in the Night Market, which was barely anything when it comes to actual background story and lore, and which also gave me some kind of general ESO fatigue, to be honest - though that really wasn't the reason I had been absent).

Considering the bad news from earlier today (What news to return to these forums to!), I'm wondering: Do we want to continue discussing the writing and story content here? As in going through the new storylines, which are coming soon, together and discussing what comes to our mind?

Even if we keep it positive, as in voicing what we liked, and what we'd love to see, I'm honestly not even sure anymore if there will be any future narrative content releases? Just being honest about my current thoughts.

(Side note: Why ESO fatique? The lack of story of the Night Market, and the way how what we got presented there in terms of worldbuilding/lore felt so strangely random. The grind. The focus on so many chore-like activities, including the tome and golden pursuits. Overland difficulty also not interesting me. Also becoming a bit wary about the Sages Vault, since it sounded like searching for levers or buttons or similar was a big part of it, which isn't my idea of "puzzles" = things that actually make me use my brain, not just run around searching things. But anyway, when it comes to future content - what we might still get and when - we're not really in the situation to be able to discuss these things now anyway, anymore.)

Hope you are on the mend!

It was indeed very bad news to find this morning, and I am saddened by the loss of so many talented people.

As far as continuing the discussion goes, I'll talk about the story/lore/writing of ESO as long as anyone wants to, because there is always a lot to consider.

However, I won't be going through the new storylines immediately. Partly this is due to my dislike of questing in a crowd, and partly it is due to other matters taking up most of my time just now. But I am looking forward to the new content and even the Sheogorath questline, even though I don't like Sheogorath, because story and lore and questing is what I love most about this game. Besides, my main character likes to thwart Daedric Princes if he can, and so maybe I can interpret the Sheogorath quest to read as him thrusting a spoke in the wheel of whatever shenanigans Sheogorath intends.

I understand ESO fatigue--I get it sometimes, too, and take a bit of a break. I also wasn't quite sure what to make of the Sages Vault after watching the stream that included more information about it. I guess I'll see if it's for me after I give it a try.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

~A wild bosmer has appeared~

*gasp* I thought you were forever lost in one of Syldras' experiments!

On a less silly note, I'm also glad this thread is still around, and I'm always glad to chat about game stories (and more) with whomever pops in.

Syldras wrote: »

Well, if others agree, I think we can continue discussing. I can babble on basically forever. Like: Why did I find this in the Night Market, where did it even come from?!

Now that is a bit of interesting lore/flavor. I have some questions.

1. Is this the first we've learned that there was official documentation about his banishment? I'd always thought it was just Iachesis sending him away and never mentioning the matter again.

2. Why are the runes "bizarre and illegible"? Does that mean someone scribbled on top of this document? That is, that the banishment bit is written in whatever language the Psijics use for their official documents, but then somewhere along the line someone else wrote those runes over the original text?

3. What's the significance of Mannimarco's name in red ink? Also, why emphasize that the document includes his name? Wouldn't a writ of banishment have to include the name of the banished, and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise to find it there? Or is the red-inked Mannimarco related to those indecipherable runes? Which in turn makes me think Mannimarco scrawled those runes over the original text, and they are meant as a curse of some sort on the Psijics.

Syldras wrote: »

And also, lately I learnt about the term "background show" - tv shows deliberately created for people not actually watching but just perhaps listening to it on the side while doing something completely different. A horrible concept and, for me, not really compatible with serious quality writing. We could discuss now how often stories - for movies, shows or games - might be written like that today, believing that the average consumer is not actually watching or listening anymore (but busy watching whatever on a second screen or staring at their phone). It was a thought I had regularly, thinking of all those dialogue repetations in ESO, for example.

Some of the dialogue repetitions could be down to 'second screen' writing--saying the same thing over and over because people might not be paying full attention. Some of it, though, I think comes about from the fact that people can stop mid-way through a quest and not get back to it for a long time, and then might benefit from a line or two of refresher dialogue.

ArchangelIsraphel · July 7

Syldras wrote: »

I know that devs have read the forums in the past year or so and picked up feedback and ideas from them. But I'm wondering how much leeway there will even be in the future to be open for player suggestions, or how strict the directives from above might be now. Obviously, I don't know. What I can say is that it would be a sad change especially after the past year seemed to have worked so well in many cases when it came to feedback and communication. It felt like a real improvement - I'd hate to see that gone again.

I have the same fears. Especially concerning how strict future directives may or may not be. I know they'll be able to move forwards (albeit more slowly) with their current plans. But what then? In the time since Project Blackbird folded, it felt as though the reigns came off the DEV team, and they were finally able to push the game forwards in a direction they had been longing to take it. It actually seemed like there was genuine passion behind the game again, as it was starting to gain it's second wind. I hope those who remain will still retain that drive, along with the freedom to make changes and communicate. Maybe we'll get smaller, bite-sized stories with more concentration on the overall writing. I don't know, I can only hope.

Syldras wrote: »

The power-hungy brute. The wealth-loving hedonist. The mysterious gloomy knowledge-seeker. If you seek power without being brutish or care for collecting knowledge without dressing like a hobo the world will explode. To me, relying on clichés makes a narration feel less serious. Like a joke somehow. It doesn't help with immersing and creating actual feelings towards what happens in the story. Which is something that I care for a lot, being a roleplayer.

Agreed, I was put in mind of comic book villains, to be honest. Not that they were intended to be villains, but they followed a very similar, basic formula you tend to see in that form of media. I also felt like they were going for a sort of "seven deadly sins" kind of thing. Greed, gluttony, etc "chose your vice, traveler." Not to mention that it was all just flavor text, and had very little relevance to how you played through the Night Market, other than what dye and monster helm you ended up with.

I don't say that to be insulting, but as genuine criticism of the writing. Clichés aren't always a bad thing if they're used well, but in this case, the writing was far too one-dimensional to be satisfying. I couldn't get immersed at all, and just treated them as quest hub NPC's with no real relevance to my character's story.

I joined The Thousand Eyes, because the idea of gaining knowledge would be both a temptation and a narrative driver for my Templar. It was pretty disappointing when absolutely nothing came of the supposed "hunt for knowledge". No hidden secrets, lost lore, or actual arcane abilities are revealed to the player at all. In fact, I think the most interesting thing about the faction ended up being the esoteric rat king motif on their banner. The history of which is rather interesting in and of itself, outside of the game.

Syldras wrote: »

And also, lately I learnt about the term "background show" - tv shows deliberately created for people not actually watching but just perhaps listening to it on the side while doing something completely different. A horrible concept and, for me, not really compatible with serious quality writing. We could discuss now how often stories - for movies, shows or games - might be written like that today, believing that the average consumer is not actually watching or listening anymore (but busy watching whatever on a second screen or staring at their phone). It was a thought I had regularly, thinking of all those dialogue repetations in ESO, for example.

Oddly enough, I also ran into this concept recently, in regards to an infamous streaming company I won't name here. I read that article, and immediately thought of some of the event quests we've had. As if they were written to be skipped over, rather than interacted with. The recent valentines event comes to mind. I know that one was fairly popular, but you know how picky I am when it comes to the depiction of Sanguine (I did enjoy the outfit we got, though :P )

With that quest line, the Writhing Wall, and the recent Night market quests, they left me with a general feeling of "don't think about it too hard, and you'll have fun." As if they weren't written for roleplayers who want to get deeply immersed?

I feel like the term background show also connects to the idea that players who do the quests to be entertained (like watching a movie, without any story/rp feedback from their own mind) and players who do the quests to roleplay, are two very different types of players. We're often looking for content to play a character off of, to have something to go on or motivate further story telling. And I don't think the current writers have been taking that into account. They've been writing more for the "movie watchers". Then there's the "grab the quest and get to the action" players as well.

Syldras wrote: »

Well, if others agree, I think we can continue discussing. I can babble on basically forever. Like: Why did I find this in the Night Market, where did it even come from?!

Oh now that is an interesting find, I didn't run across that. That's the sort of thing I would have loved to see get elaborated on in the Thousand Eyes. Rumors/secrets could have been used to track down more information on such old relics. A shame they didn't think of that!

I wonder if the runes had any kind of binding quality to them, a spell attempting to keep Mannimarco out. Or perhaps it's an Easter egg of some sort, maybe the next Night Market will have something to do with him? I'd love to know how the heck it got into this particular demiplane of Oblivion, especially given that it must have had some kind of importance to Mannimarco, not something I imagine he'd easily toss aside. Or maybe he did, so that it would no longer have power over him? (If it even could) So many possibilities. What sort of container did you find it in, or was it on a boss?

metheglyn wrote: »

*gasp* I thought you were forever lost in one of Syldras' experiments!

On a less silly note, I'm also glad this thread is still around, and I'm always glad to chat about game stories (and more) with whomever pops in.

Now now, even though there is a limit to how much confetti and self-combusting camel meat Master Syldras can get me to eat, I'm certainly not dead!

Yet. >.>;

metheglyn wrote: »

What's the significance of Mannimarco's name in red ink? Also, why emphasize that the document includes his name? Wouldn't a writ of banishment have to include the name of the banished, and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise to find it there? Or is the red-inked Mannimarco related to those indecipherable runes? Which in turn makes me think Mannimarco scrawled those runes over the original text, and they are meant as a curse of some sort on the Psijics.

I might be reaching, but the imagery is reminiscent of Japanese Ofuda, at least to me. They are a sort of sacred talisman used by Shinto priests as vessels for deities, in order to ward off evil. Something about his name being written in red, along with the runes, makes me feel like the document contained a binding spell, or a seal.

A little snippet of the lore off of the wiki that might connect to my theory, perhaps, given that it's weird that the object is here to begin with:

"One method the Order utilizes to fix phenomena such as Time Breaches is through the use of Psijic Seals, arcane anchors created by the ancient Aldmer who sought to bind any wayward spirits or forces in a given place during a time when the veil was thinner,[29] which allow the wielder to stabilize the rifts and harden the walls of time that surround them through the use of "chrononymics".[7] Order members might also use their own ability in Time Magic to manipulate and untangle phenomena such as Time Knots directly.[9] It has been theorized that the Order has the magic to transport beings through time.[30] The experiments the Order conducted on Change, one of the Eleven Forces, had the potential to cause one to enter a synchroseisiac state, becoming scattered across time and space and out of sync with the rest of Aurbis[17] Psijic monks had the ability to use Time Breaches in order to springboard to a different time and place.[7]

There have been cases of mages conducting rituals that caused their surrounding area to "ripple with temporal distortion", connecting different time periods and drawing beings from one into the other. While time was distorted in this manner interacting with objects with a strong link to the different time period had the potential to transport one through time to said period, experiencing that time's events by taking the place of the one the object was tied to originally"

The fact that it's a strangely out of place, and in a realm outside of time, made me think of that particular part of Psijic lore.

metheglyn wrote: »

Some of the dialogue repetitions could be down to 'second screen' writing--saying the same thing over and over because people might not be paying full attention. Some of it, though, I think comes about from the fact that people can stop mid-way through a quest and not get back to it for a long time, and then might benefit from a line or two of refresher dialogue.

I think the repetition is also a relic of the time when we could start a character in any zone we wanted, so there were some Who Is This Important Person? Dialogue choices that explained things to players who jumped into the middle of the story.

Syldras · July 7

metheglyn wrote: »

However, I won't be going through the new storylines immediately. Partly this is due to my dislike of questing in a crowd, and partly it is due to other matters taking up most of my time just now. But I am looking forward to the new content and even the Sheogorath questline, even though I don't like Sheogorath, because story and lore and questing is what I love most about this game. Besides, my main character likes to thwart Daedric Princes if he can, and so maybe I can interpret the Sheogorath quest to read as him thrusting a spoke in the wheel of whatever shenanigans Sheogorath intends.

Oh, actually I'm also someone who prefers to wait for a while after releases, until the initial rush of people is gone (Generally, the atmosphere or theme I mostly enjoy when questing in an rpg is basically that of being a lone explorer - well, actually it's not much different than when travelling in real life, I despise all group activities, and want, at most, one person with me, if necessary; of course having masses of other people run around doesn't help with that. Of course I'm aware this is an MMO, but it's fine if I can organize my playtimes myself so I won't come across masses of other players).

The "problem" (or not, depending on if one cares for it or not) is that I think there will be a Golden Pursuit starting with the release of the new questline, rushing us through the new content - again. I already disliked it the past few times they did that, not allowing us to play story content (which has generally become scarce) in our own pace. I think the first time it happened was when they released Scribing? It really wasn't fun rushing through it in those 2 weeks after release or so, with all places being extremely crowded like some mass tourism spot, when I actually had other plans.

I honestly wonder why it is necessary? Yes, surely they want to "motivate" people to play the new content, but does it need to be pushed like that, I wonder? As someone interested in quest content, an info that there is new content is enough for me - I will check it out on my own. As for people demanding rewards: These could just be included as quest rewards (or through the achievement lists, if they want that), no need for another task list on top of that - a time-limited one, of all things.

That's another issue: FOMO. We were told they understand people hate FOMO, but now we have lots of time-gated FOMO chores instead of giving us rewards earnable at any time through playing the game. Even ads sometimes rely on FOMO now - I've seen several different ones telling people to buy the Tome "fast, before it's gone!!!!" - and the same with the Night Market too, by the way. (Oh, I notice I actually took a note about one of these ad texts; it was literally "The countdown is running out! Get the rewards for Season Zero as long as you still can!") - what's that if not extreme FOMO marketing?

Anyway, now that I know we'll keep discussing story content here, I will keep that in mind during my playthrough (no matter when it will take place), and take some notes!

metheglyn wrote: »

I understand ESO fatigue--I get it sometimes, too, and take a bit of a break.

I never had ESO fatigue to that extent before - there really was something exhausting and frustrating about the Night Market (and interestingly, I talked to several people who felt exactly the same; usually no problems with fatigue - but the Night Market somehow made them lose interest for the game for a whole while, which I think is an interesting phenomenon; I also didn't bother to watch that big Xbox stream, by the way, knowing there's no new ESO chapter coming anyway).

Of course, it was my decision to partake in the Night Market for the achievements/rewards, so it's my own fault; all I'm saying is that forcing myself through group content despite absolutely disliking grouping with random people was somehow generally taking away my fun for this game (and it even messed up my usual playstyle for a while, I think - I got so used to just running past mobs in the Night Market, from marker to marker, fast-paced, so I somehow did the same in all other locations afterwards when doing daily quests and such - it's not a good habit; I'm slowly returning to my old playstyle now, but it made me think about how certain types of content might change players way of interacting with the game altogether, and how that could cause possibly cause difficulties/problems in other parts of the game?).

And the following content additions and announcements also didn't manage to really fascinate me, on top of that. Well, next thing are the questlines now, I'm curious how I'm going to like those!

metheglyn wrote: »

I also wasn't quite sure what to make of the Sages Vault after watching the stream that included more information about it. I guess I'll see if it's for me after I give it a try.

Ah, right, the stream(s). To be honest, there wasn't that much of interest lately for me personally. Lots of things that might be improvements in a way (and of course I'm happy for people who like these things), but not actual content. Like that option to reorganise the UI, for example - some people will love it, but it's not actually playable content. And for me personally, it's absolutely desinteresting - I don't want to spend my little free time on shoving around parts of a UI, I want to play the actual game. (Also, I'm a little concerned it might break lots of addons, but that's a different topic). But now, plans and priorities might have changed anyway - we'll see.

metheglyn wrote: »

Now that is a bit of interesting lore/flavor. I have some questions.
1. Is this the first we've learned that there was official documentation about his banishment? I'd always thought it was just Iachesis sending him away and never mentioning the matter again.

Yes. The first official mention of his banishment being recorded. Then again, I'm not really surprised; I somehow just assumed they'd probably have records about more or less anything there. Mer (well, except for Bosmer) seem to love bureaucracy, after all.

metheglyn wrote: »

3. Why are the runes "bizarre and illegible"? Does that mean someone scribbled on top of this document? That is, that the banishment bit is written in whatever language the Psijics use for their official documents, but then somewhere along the line someone else wrote those runes over the original text?

To me it felt a little trope-y. Of course the old, reclusive mages on some hidden island write things "bizarrely" and "illegibly" - too wise, old and reclusive to be understood by The Normal Person™ or so - except for the name of The Evil One, of course written in a different, eye-catching color (Red - danger, death, blood!) somewhere inbetween the chaotic scribblings, so it immediately catches the reader's attention.

metheglyn wrote: »

3. What's the significance of Mannimarco's name in red ink? Also, why emphasize that the document includes his name? Wouldn't a writ of banishment have to include the name of the banished, and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise to find it there? Or is the red-inked Mannimarco related to those indecipherable runes? Which in turn makes me think Mannimarco scrawled those runes over the original text, and they are meant as a curse of some sort on the Psijics.

I, personally, was first reminded of the tradition in some Asian cultures to write names of dead people in red (it's such a taboo until today that writing or printing a text including someone's name with red ink is seen as extremely distasteful, basically bringing bad luck or even wishing that person death). I'm not sure though if it's likely that the person who wrote that flavor text is aware of this tradition, so perhaps it was just meant to be some signal color here.

metheglyn wrote: »

Some of the dialogue repetitions could be down to 'second screen' writing--saying the same thing over and over because people might not be paying full attention. Some of it, though, I think comes about from the fact that people can stop mid-way through a quest and not get back to it for a long time, and then might benefit from a line or two of refresher dialogue.

It's a bit much, and I have the impression that the writing, or more precisely the phrasing, has generally become more simple over the years, with little info to actually think about. But anyway, I found it concerning to learn that "background shows" are even an established thhing, as it just sounds sad to me to produce media with the expectation that it was just babbling somewhere in the background with people not really paying much attention to it.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I don't say that to be insulting, but as genuine criticism of the writing. Clichés aren't always a bad thing if they're used well, but in this case, the writing was far too one-dimensional to be satisfying. I couldn't get immersed at all, and just treated them as quest hub NPC's with no real relevance to my character's story.
I joined The Thousand Eyes, because the idea of gaining knowledge would be both a temptation and a narrative driver for my Templar. It was pretty disappointing when absolutely nothing came of the supposed "hunt for knowledge". No hidden secrets, lost lore, or actual arcane abilities are revealed to the player at all. In fact, I think the most interesting thing about the faction ended up being the esoteric rat king motif on their banner. The history of which is rather interesting in and of itself, outside of the game.

It was indeed interesting to see the concept of a rat king coming up in ESO.

But, generally: I had the feeling the whole faction thing was, like sadly so many things nowaways, all just about "aesthetics", but with no real meaning behind it. The Eyes looked mysterious, the Glitter faction had some wealthy show-off party look, the Brutes faction looked "tough" - but there was nothing behind it.

In the end, they all had the same tasks, the same stuff at their furnishing seller, and having no differences there at all made the biggest part of the Night Market setup feel redundant. They could have just removed the factions completely and put one questgiver and one furnishing store npc on the main plaza, and it would have made no difference. It really made me wonder why they even made up factions and that whole competition aspect when it just felt meaningless and random. If there are factions with allegedly different goals, I want to actually see that coming up somehow - in dialogue, in playstyle. I think even splitting the different dailies between factions (so there would actually be some quest about collecting info for the Eyes, about combat for the Brutes, etc) and letting players freely choose which faction(s) to help per day would have made more sense.

But the way it was, yes, it wasn't immersive at all. It was just running around doing random tasks for points, which contributed to the general feeling of that place being some lore-less arcade game location, but not actually a believable place in the world of TES. It was sad, actually, and it made me wary if this kind of content could be ESO's focus going forwards.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Oddly enough, I also ran into this concept recently, in regards to an infamous streaming company I won't name here. I read that article, and immediately thought of some of the event quests we've had. As if they were written to be skipped over, rather than interacted with. The recent valentines event comes to mind. I know that one was fairly popular, but you know how picky I am when it comes to the depiction of Sanguine (I did enjoy the outfit we got, though :P )

In terms of Sanguine lore, that was... well, not quite it. But the strangest to me was that choices were given, but in the end, nothing really made any difference. And even if something bad was supposed to happen, no npc really seemed to care anyway. Why have choices if there are no consequences?

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

With that quest line, the Writhing Wall, and the recent Night market quests, they left me with a general feeling of "don't think about it too hard, and you'll have fun." As if they weren't written for roleplayers who want to get deeply immersed?

It felt like the focus was just on fast-paced action and bombastic effects, but not much beyond that. Indeed, for a roleplayer, this isn't very interesting.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I feel like the term background show also connects to the idea that players who do the quests to be entertained (like watching a movie, without any story/rp feedback from their own mind) and players who do the quests to roleplay, are two very different types of players. We're often looking for content to play a character off of, to have something to go on or motivate further story telling. And I don't think the current writers have been taking that into account. They've been writing more for the "movie watchers". Then there's the "grab the quest and get to the action" players as well.

Indeed. Getting entertained by big visual effects, action and quips is a more passive thing, in contrast to actually immersing, contemplating the events of the story, thinking further about it, building one's own character stories based on the things happening on screen. I wish players who enjoy the latter would be taken more into consideration. I think TES games, also ESO in its earlier years, provided a lot for that type of player.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Oh now that is an interesting find, I didn't run across that. That's the sort of thing I would have loved to see get elaborated on in the Thousand Eyes. Rumors/secrets could have been used to track down more information on such old relics. A shame they didn't think of that!
I wonder if the runes had any kind of binding quality to them, a spell attempting to keep Mannimarco out. Or perhaps it's an Easter egg of some sort, maybe the next Night Market will have something to do with him? I'd love to know how the heck it got into this particular demiplane of Oblivion, especially given that it must have had some kind of importance to Mannimarco, not something I imagine he'd easily toss aside. Or maybe he did, so that it would no longer have power over him? (If it even could) So many possibilities. What sort of container did you find it in, or was it on a boss?

Sadly, I think there was nothing to it - it was just random loot. Lots of random loot dropping from reward boxes there, I also had that Mannimarco reliquary amulet again, for example, plus all kinds of items from across the continent, Dwemer shopping lists, Dunmer toilet paper, and what not - you get it, just the usual random loot/contraband items. I could not see any specific adjustments to the Night Maket in the selection. Which made me wonder: Why? It's random stuff showing up there, but how does this in any way relate to this location? It felt random again.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I think the repetition is also a relic of the time when we could start a character in any zone we wanted, so there were some Who Is This Important Person? Dialogue choices that explained things to players who jumped into the middle of the story.

But it also comes up in newer storylines, sadly, that were written long after One Tamriel was introduced.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Now now, even though there is a limit to how much confetti and self-combusting camel meat Master Syldras can get me to eat, I'm certainly not dead! Yet. >.>;

Don't worry. If you ever die, I'll just resurrect you as a thrall!

metheglyn · July 7

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What's the significance of Mannimarco's name in red ink? Also, why emphasize that the document includes his name? Wouldn't a writ of banishment have to include the name of the banished, and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise to find it there? Or is the red-inked Mannimarco related to those indecipherable runes? Which in turn makes me think Mannimarco scrawled those runes over the original text, and they are meant as a curse of some sort on the Psijics.

I might be reaching, but the imagery is reminiscent of Japanese Ofuda, at least to me. They are a sort of sacred talisman used by Shinto priests as vessels for deities, in order to ward off evil. Something about his name being written in red, along with the runes, makes me feel like the document contained a binding spell, or a seal.

A little snippet of the lore off of the wiki that might connect to my theory, perhaps, given that it's weird that the object is here to begin with:

"One method the Order utilizes to fix phenomena such as Time Breaches is through the use of Psijic Seals, arcane anchors created by the ancient Aldmer who sought to bind any wayward spirits or forces in a given place during a time when the veil was thinner,[29] which allow the wielder to stabilize the rifts and harden the walls of time that surround them through the use of "chrononymics".[7] Order members might also use their own ability in Time Magic to manipulate and untangle phenomena such as Time Knots directly.[9] It has been theorized that the Order has the magic to transport beings through time.[30] The experiments the Order conducted on Change, one of the Eleven Forces, had the potential to cause one to enter a synchroseisiac state, becoming scattered across time and space and out of sync with the rest of Aurbis[17] Psijic monks had the ability to use Time Breaches in order to springboard to a different time and place.[7]

There have been cases of mages conducting rituals that caused their surrounding area to "ripple with temporal distortion", connecting different time periods and drawing beings from one into the other. While time was distorted in this manner interacting with objects with a strong link to the different time period had the potential to transport one through time to said period, experiencing that time's events by taking the place of the one the object was tied to originally"

The fact that it's a strangely out of place, and in a realm outside of time, made me think of that particular part of Psijic lore.

If I'm understanding this hypothesis correctly (and it's certainly possible I'm not), it means that someone (unknown) used that writ of banishment to move forward or backward in time and experience the time's events in place of Mannimarco. It's quite an interesting notion, and brings up a wealth of possibilities. Makes me think there's some powerful Psijic with some tangled plans focused on Mannimarco. Then of course I'd want to know the who and why of it all, if that was the case. Also how they lost that writ, and how it ended up in the Night Market. Accidental? Intentional? Was the writ bought and sold along a line of interested parties, the last of whom somehow misplaced it?

Well, now Syldras has it, and I'm sure nothing bad can come of that!

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Some of the dialogue repetitions could be down to 'second screen' writing--saying the same thing over and over because people might not be paying full attention. Some of it, though, I think comes about from the fact that people can stop mid-way through a quest and not get back to it for a long time, and then might benefit from a line or two of refresher dialogue.

I think the repetition is also a relic of the time when we could start a character in any zone we wanted, so there were some Who Is This Important Person? Dialogue choices that explained things to players who jumped into the middle of the story.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that aspect. As someone who has done all the story content, in order, on my main, and who remembers fairly well what's going on in the world of Tamriel, I admit I sometimes don't consider what it's like to be new to this world and game and not know all the details. These days I know I can just skip the dialogue options that have my character ask questions like, "Who's Vivec?", though from a role-playing perspective I'm often slightly bothered by seeing them available in the first place (particularly when my character is a Dunmer who was born and raised in Balmora and hasn't stepped foot off Vvardenfell yet).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

However, I won't be going through the new storylines immediately. Partly this is due to my dislike of questing in a crowd, and partly it is due to other matters taking up most of my time just now. But I am looking forward to the new content and even the Sheogorath questline, even though I don't like Sheogorath, because story and lore and questing is what I love most about this game. Besides, my main character likes to thwart Daedric Princes if he can, and so maybe I can interpret the Sheogorath quest to read as him thrusting a spoke in the wheel of whatever shenanigans Sheogorath intends.

Oh, actually I'm also someone who prefers to wait for a while after releases, until the initial rush of people is gone (Generally, the atmosphere or theme I mostly enjoy when questing in an rpg is basically that of being a lone explorer - well, actually it's not much different than when travelling in real life, I despise all group activities, and want, at most, one person with me, if necessary; of course having masses of other people run around doesn't help with that. Of course I'm aware this is an MMO, but it's fine if I can organize my playtimes myself so I won't come across masses of other players).

The "problem" (or not, depending on if one cares for it or not) is that I think there will be a Golden Pursuit starting with the release of the new questline, rushing us through the new content - again. I already disliked it the past few times they did that, not allowing us to play story content (which has generally become scarce) in our own pace. I think the first time it happened was when they released Scribing? It really wasn't fun rushing through it in those 2 weeks after release or so, with all places being extremely crowded like some mass tourism spot, when I actually had other plans.

I honestly wonder why it is necessary? Yes, surely they want to "motivate" people to play the new content, but does it need to be pushed like that, I wonder? As someone interested in quest content, an info that there is new content is enough for me - I will check it out on my own. As for people demanding rewards: These could just be included as quest rewards (or through the achievement lists, if they want that), no need for another task list on top of that - a time-limited one, of all things.

That's another issue: FOMO. We were told they understand people hate FOMO, but now we have lots of time-gated FOMO chores instead of giving us rewards earnable at any time through playing the game. Even ads sometimes rely on FOMO now - I've seen several different ones telling people to buy the Tome "fast, before it's gone!!!!" - and the same with the Night Market too, by the way. (Oh, I notice I actually took a note about one of these ad texts; it was literally "The countdown is running out! Get the rewards for Season Zero as long as you still can!") - what's that if not extreme FOMO marketing?

Was there a Golden Pursuit with scribing? I don't remember. I don't think I did that quest right away, because scribing just wasn't that interesting to me. Regardless of those details, I understand your point: why do they feel the need to pair new story content with a Golden Pursuit? I don't know. It's possible it's just another marketing thing, a way to hype up the content. I'd heard there was going to be a Pursuit for the Thieves Guild story, but didn't pay it much mind. Depending on how long it lasts, I may or may not get it done--if it's only a week-long thing, I won't; if it's around for a couple of months, I might. The Pursuit for the Night Market ran for a long time, didn't it? For myself, I'd prefer to not have Pursuits tied to story content, but it's possible ZOS is trying to give people a wider variety of Pursuits/rewards instead of just having them tied to events/systems.

As far as FOMO goes, they're never going to get rid of it entirely. Regarding the Season Zero ad text: in a charitable light, you could see it as reminding people to claim their rewards before the season ends (since the strange auto-claim feature doesn't, in fact, claim everything), but most likely it's to urge anyone who might have been tempted to purchase the upgrade to do so because this is their last chance. It's very much FOMO marketing in that regard.

Syldras wrote: »

Anyway, now that I know we'll keep discussing story content here, I will keep that in mind during my playthrough (no matter when it will take place), and take some notes!

You'd better! And they better be the best notes you've ever taken! (Would use a smiley-guy of some variety here to indicate tone if the smilies weren't so very large and frightening.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I understand ESO fatigue--I get it sometimes, too, and take a bit of a break.

I never had ESO fatigue to that extent before - there really was something exhausting and frustrating about the Night Market (and interestingly, I talked to several people who felt exactly the same; usually no problems with fatigue - but the Night Market somehow made them lose interest for the game for a whole while, which I think is an interesting phenomenon; I also didn't bother to watch that big Xbox stream, by the way, knowing there's no new ESO chapter coming anyway).

Of course, it was my decision to partake in the Night Market for the achievements/rewards, so it's my own fault; all I'm saying is that forcing myself through group content despite absolutely disliking grouping with random people was somehow generally taking away my fun for this game (and it even messed up my usual playstyle for a while, I think - I got so used to just running past mobs in the Night Market, from marker to marker, fast-paced, so I somehow did the same in all other locations afterwards when doing daily quests and such - it's not a good habit; I'm slowly returning to my old playstyle now, but it made me think about how certain types of content might change players way of interacting with the game altogether, and how that could cause possibly cause difficulties/problems in other parts of the game?).

And the following content additions and announcements also didn't manage to really fascinate me, on top of that. Well, next thing are the questlines now, I'm curious how I'm going to like those!

I think I spent all of two hours in the Night Market the first day it was available, and since that small bit of time fatigued me, I could see how spending weeks in there could do it.

It is interesting how certain game components/features can alter our playstyles. I find myself sometimes speedrunning through content because I've just been speedrunning through my crafting dailies or event quests, and I have to actually check myself and slow down, because I don't actually like speedrunning through content. It's like the brain kicks into automation very easily, and overrides your own personal preferences.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also wasn't quite sure what to make of the Sages Vault after watching the stream that included more information about it. I guess I'll see if it's for me after I give it a try.

Ah, right, the stream(s). To be honest, there wasn't that much of interest lately for me personally. Lots of things that might be improvements in a way (and of course I'm happy for people who like these things), but not actual content. Like that option to reorganise the UI, for example - some people will love it, but it's not actually playable content. And for me personally, it's absolutely desinteresting - I don't want to spend my little free time on shoving around parts of a UI, I want to play the actual game. (Also, I'm a little concerned it might break lots of addons, but that's a different topic). But now, plans and priorities might have changed anyway - we'll see.

I know UI reorginization is a big plus for some players, so it's nice they'll be able to fiddle with it to their heart's content. LotRO has always had the ability to reorganize their UI in such a way, and it's nice to be able to put elements exactly where you want them, but I've never messed with it too much. I can't say I've ever been bothered by the UI layout of ESO, so I don't see myself using this new feature. What I want them to do is add a mini-map. I know there's an add-on for it, and I used it for a long time, but I much prefer for things like that to be part of the game itself. But, considering the new reality of the team, who knows what they'll be able to do regarding QOL updates, or anything, really. I really liked that ZOS had a team devoted to QOL/pain points, because those small things are valuable additions to the overall feel of the game. As you said: we'll have to see what the remaining team members are able to do.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now that is a bit of interesting lore/flavor. I have some questions.
1. Is this the first we've learned that there was official documentation about his banishment? I'd always thought it was just Iachesis sending him away and never mentioning the matter again.

Yes. The first official mention of his banishment being recorded. Then again, I'm not really surprised; I somehow just assumed they'd probably have records about more or less anything there. Mer (well, except for Bosmer) seem to love bureaucracy, after all.

They seem to love bureaucracy, but have very poor organizational skills, since they never seem to be able to locate information they need when they need it. If the Vault of Moawita is anything to go by, they also lose important things quite easily. So now my question is: was this writ supposed to be in their archives and somehow went missing, or was this a copy given to Mannimarco as they kicked him out (assuming they write out copies of their edicts)?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

3. Why are the runes "bizarre and illegible"? Does that mean someone scribbled on top of this document? That is, that the banishment bit is written in whatever language the Psijics use for their official documents, but then somewhere along the line someone else wrote those runes over the original text?

To me it felt a little trope-y. Of course the old, reclusive mages on some hidden island write things "bizarrely" and "illegibly" - too wise, old and reclusive to be understood by The Normal Person™ or so - except for the name of The Evil One, of course written in a different, eye-catching color (Red - danger, death, blood!) somewhere inbetween the chaotic scribblings, so it immediately catches the reader's attention.

The fact that the name was written in a different color is what made me think of someone writing over the original document--that the illegible runes were also written in red. Or maybe when the Psijic scribe was drawing up the writ, they ran out of regular ink just when they got to the name and had to use their back-up ink, which happened to red.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

3. What's the significance of Mannimarco's name in red ink? Also, why emphasize that the document includes his name? Wouldn't a writ of banishment have to include the name of the banished, and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise to find it there? Or is the red-inked Mannimarco related to those indecipherable runes? Which in turn makes me think Mannimarco scrawled those runes over the original text, and they are meant as a curse of some sort on the Psijics.

I, personally, was first reminded of the tradition in some Asian cultures to write names of dead people in red (it's such a taboo until today that writing or printing a text including someone's name with red ink is seen as extremely distasteful, basically bringing bad luck or even wishing that person death). I'm not sure though if it's likely that the person who wrote that flavor text is aware of this tradition, so perhaps it was just meant to be some signal color here.

I think I'll double-down on my supposition that someone used ancient runes scribbled over the original document to invoke a spell of some variety with Mannimarco as its focus. Now I just have to figure out who was doing that, and why.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Some of the dialogue repetitions could be down to 'second screen' writing--saying the same thing over and over because people might not be paying full attention. Some of it, though, I think comes about from the fact that people can stop mid-way through a quest and not get back to it for a long time, and then might benefit from a line or two of refresher dialogue.

It's a bit much, and I have the impression that the writing, or more precisely the phrasing, has generally become more simple over the years, with little info to actually think about. But anyway, I found it concerning to learn that "background shows" are even an established thhing, as it just sounds sad to me to produce media with the expectation that it was just babbling somewhere in the background with people not really paying much attention to it.

Well, as we've seen plenty of times, creative endeavors are often harmed by the decisions of the people whose job it is to make the creativity profitable. Someone probably read a study or something about how people these days engage with media in a different way (multiple screens) and drew certain conclusions about what media had to be like going forward in order to succeed in this new way of consumption.

Syldras wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Oddly enough, I also ran into this concept recently, in regards to an infamous streaming company I won't name here. I read that article, and immediately thought of some of the event quests we've had. As if they were written to be skipped over, rather than interacted with. The recent valentines event comes to mind. I know that one was fairly popular, but you know how picky I am when it comes to the depiction of Sanguine (I did enjoy the outfit we got, though :P )

In terms of Sanguine lore, that was... well, not quite it. But the strangest to me was that choices were given, but in the end, nothing really made any difference. And even if something bad was supposed to happen, no npc really seemed to care anyway. Why have choices if there are no consequences?

I do think the Hearts Week event had potential, but it was odd that there were no consequences to what our characters might have chosen. I specifically took a character through who would want to work with Sanguine, and it wasn't meaningfully different from the character who went through the quests with the idea of thwarting Sanguine. As to what, precisely, Sanguine wanted our characters to do, I can't say if that fit with the Sanguine character or not--the most I know of Sanguine was their Skyrim appearance, and that was just...well, I didn't care for it. I can say that ESO Sanguine doesn't seem all that much different to me than Skyrim Sanguine, but I'm sure there are details I'm missing.

Syldras wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I feel like the term background show also connects to the idea that players who do the quests to be entertained (like watching a movie, without any story/rp feedback from their own mind) and players who do the quests to roleplay, are two very different types of players. We're often looking for content to play a character off of, to have something to go on or motivate further story telling. And I don't think the current writers have been taking that into account. They've been writing more for the "movie watchers". Then there's the "grab the quest and get to the action" players as well.

Indeed. Getting entertained by big visual effects, action and quips is a more passive thing, in contrast to actually immersing, contemplating the events of the story, thinking further about it, building one's own character stories based on the things happening on screen. I wish players who enjoy the latter would be taken more into consideration. I think TES games, also ESO in its earlier years, provided a lot for that type of player.

I have found it harder in recent years to figure out why my character would be doing some of the things that come up in the quests. And even in the quests where the decisions do fit my character, I can see how they wouldn't work for others. One recent example is all the support and help we give Darien in the Solstice quests. It seems to take for granted that the player character is invested in and cares about Darien's past/present/future and mental state. I know he's a popular NPC, but I also know there are people who don't care for him, and for those players, there's no way around being the super-supportive helpful Darien side-kick/buddy.

But on the other side there was at least one side-quest where the player could choose how to approach the NPC's demand, and I found that one quite satisfying. (It was the one with the guy who wanted the animal hides and said his partner had died to animal attack). So there is still some of that role-player perspective in some of the writing; it's not as much as I would like, but since the game has to serve a variety of playstyles, I think that might be the best we can hope for.

Syldras wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Now now, even though there is a limit to how much confetti and self-combusting camel meat Master Syldras can get me to eat, I'm certainly not dead! Yet. >.>;

Don't worry. If you ever die, I'll just resurrect you as a thrall!

Something to look forward to, for sure!

emilyhyoyeon · July 7

Syldras wrote: »

So, first of all, I'm sorry for the long absence! I've been ill, then busy, then ill again; now it's not even 2 days anymore until the next story release - the Thieves Guild questline - , and later this month, there will also be the Sheogorath storyline, plus some few smaller releases that will probably have some kind of narrative background (hoping it will be more than what we've seen in the Night Market, which was barely anything when it comes to actual background story and lore, and which also gave me some kind of general ESO fatigue, to be honest - though that really wasn't the reason I had been absent).

Considering the bad news from earlier today (What news to return to these forums to!), I'm wondering: Do we want to continue discussing the writing and story content here? As in going through the new storylines, which are coming soon, together and discussing what comes to our mind?

Even if we keep it positive, as in voicing what we liked, and what we'd love to see, I'm honestly not even sure anymore if there will be any future narrative content releases? Just being honest about my current thoughts.

(Side note: Why ESO fatique? The lack of story of the Night Market, and the way how what we got presented there in terms of worldbuilding/lore felt so strangely random. The grind. The focus on so many chore-like activities, including the tome and golden pursuits. Overland difficulty also not interesting me. Also becoming a bit wary about the Sages Vault, since it sounded like searching for levers or buttons or similar was a big part of it, which isn't my idea of "puzzles" = things that actually make me use my brain, not just run around searching things. But anyway, when it comes to future content - what we might still get and when - we're not really in the situation to be able to discuss these things now anyway, anymore.)

Really happy to see you're back. And I hope you were doing ok during the crazy heat the past month.

I've been having the same thought, honestly, about not being sure there's even going to be any more story content. Even before the news the other day, I've been worried about it. It started with the official announcement of chapters to seasons or whatever because, although I don't think chapters are necessary for new stories, I did not have faith that it would mean anything else for ESO.

And the layoffs were disturbing to say the least. Someone posted an image list of the ESO devs in another thread here, and 6 of the 9 writers are confirmed gone. I've seen people throw around the idea that maybe there's going to be a shift towards AI written stories which would be disgusting and sad. Etc etc. So, yeah, it does feel like it would be silly to discuss this stuff at all anymore (but I like reading your insights regardless, so I don't want to suggest you stop lol, or anyone). I also feel this way about any kind of ESO suggestion at the moment, honestly, since everything about the game is seeming grim.

RE the ESO fatigue: I'm feeling the same way too. I've been enjoying overland difficulty and redoing old zone quests, but all the actual new content is just not it. I've definitely played the least amount this year as I ever have since I started playing this game. Also the Sages Vault, from what I saw during the stream a few weeks ago, is, yeah, a pass from me. I'm just not interested in a platform (?) style game-within-a-game. It gives off the arcade vibe like the Night Market. I don't want to play that stuff.
Some of my favorite posts from you, Syldras, are when you described what you're looking for in ESO, mentioning the stuff like wanting to expierence a world of different peoples and learn about their cultures, especially from perspective of people in those cultures and all that kind of thing. That's exactly what I want as well. It doesn't seem like the Sages Vault is anywhere near there.

Syldras · July 9

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, now Syldras has it, and I'm sure nothing bad can come of that!

I've already planned experiments! I can say it has some sort of magic aura emanating from it, but I'm not sure which kind specifically (probably Ancient Mysterious Psijic Magic). As I also conveniently have a certain guest in a marble box in my basement, I'll test if there's any reciprocal reactivity.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that aspect. As someone who has done all the story content, in order, on my main, and who remembers fairly well what's going on in the world of Tamriel, I admit I sometimes don't consider what it's like to be new to this world and game and not know all the details. These days I know I can just skip the dialogue options that have my character ask questions like, "Who's Vivec?", though from a role-playing perspective I'm often slightly bothered by seeing them available in the first place (particularly when my character is a Dunmer who was born and raised in Balmora and hasn't stepped foot off Vvardenfell yet).

It should be taken into consideration if a player character has done certain quests before or not. I mean, sometimes this game does that (they've even changed some base game Hermaeus Mora dialogue to be different in case a character has finished Necrom before those quests) - but often, sadly, not.

And when it comes to native Dunmer player characters asking about the Tribunal - there'd always be the possibility to word dialogues in a more vague way or to just make those questions an optional side branch of a dialogue.

metheglyn wrote: »

Was there a Golden Pursuit with scribing? I don't remember. I don't think I did that quest right away, because scribing just wasn't that interesting to me. Regardless of those details, I understand your point: why do they feel the need to pair new story content with a Golden Pursuit? I don't know. It's possible it's just another marketing thing, a way to hype up the content. I'd heard there was going to be a Pursuit for the Thieves Guild story, but didn't pay it much mind. Depending on how long it lasts, I may or may not get it done--if it's only a week-long thing, I won't; if it's around for a couple of months, I might. The Pursuit for the Night Market ran for a long time, didn't it? For myself, I'd prefer to not have Pursuits tied to story content, but it's possible ZOS is trying to give people a wider variety of Pursuits/rewards instead of just having them tied to events/systems.

I need to correct myself: The new Thieves Guild questline didn't get a Golden Pursuit (at least I didn't see a new one yesterday) - according to some monthly roadmap I've seen now it's the Sheogorath questline at the end of July that will get one (lasting 2 weeks). Thieves Guild did get related seasonal chores in the chore book, through, also only lasting for 2 weeks. Though in that case, if one doesn't do them, the only thing "lost" are tome points, at least, and those aren't exactly scarce (last season I stopped doing chores immediately when I had unlocked everything, and still ended up with about 14k extra points at the end of the season - they were converted into gold, which was a useful plus). It will be different with Sheogorath, especially since I read that those Golden Pursuit rewards will thematically be closely related to the questline's theme, so people might really want to get those.

In case of Scribing, it wasn't a Golden Pursuit, but one needed to complete achievements (from that achievement menu) to be able to claim a few items from the crown store for free. And these achievements were about reaching certain stages of the Scribing questline. So if one wanted to claim those items, one needed to rush through the questline right after release. It wasn't exactly pleasant.

I do understand they probably do that so there are high engagement numbers they can present somewhere (basically to show how much of a success the new content was), but for questers who want to immerse and experience stories in peace, it's really not fun. I'd go so far to say it's off-putting in a way.

metheglyn wrote: »

As far as FOMO goes, they're never going to get rid of it entirely. Regarding the Season Zero ad text: in a charitable light, you could see it as reminding people to claim their rewards before the season ends (since the strange auto-claim feature doesn't, in fact, claim everything), but most likely it's to urge anyone who might have been tempted to purchase the upgrade to do so because this is their last chance. It's very much FOMO marketing in that regard.

It had a "Buy now!" button, so it clearly wasn't just a well-meaning reminder for people who already participated in it to claim their stuff. I just find it ironic that this is more extreme FOMO marketing than we ever had seen in old ESO ads, and that this has started right after they told us in a stream that they heard the playerbase's wish and reduced FOMO. It just doesn't match.

metheglyn wrote: »

You'd better! And they better be the best notes you've ever taken! (Would use a smiley-guy of some variety here to indicate tone if the smilies weren't so very large and frightening.)

I really hope the sudden forum problems (Isn't it weird how they just started one day?) will get fixed soon. The invisible edit button is also slightly annoying.

metheglyn wrote: »

I think I spent all of two hours in the Night Market the first day it was available, and since that small bit of time fatigued me, I could see how spending weeks in there could do it.

In my case, it was 2 weeks (which doesn't even sound that long). The thing ran for 7 weeks in total, I think. I did wonder how busy it might still have been in the last few weeks, or if people struggled finding people to group with then, and I had initially thought about checking it on the last day or so - but once I've left the Night Market, I somehow had zero interest in ever seeing it again and also somehow forgot about it after a few days.

metheglyn wrote: »

It is interesting how certain game components/features can alter our playstyles. I find myself sometimes speedrunning through content because I've just been speedrunning through my crafting dailies or event quests, and I have to actually check myself and slow down, because I don't actually like speedrunning through content. It's like the brain kicks into automation very easily, and overrides your own personal preferences.

I also think it's a factor that possibly needs to be considered when designing things. How encouraging one specific type of behavior in one heavily hyped event activity could change behavior in other parts of the game, or also shape the expectations and feelings of the players - for the better or for the worse. After fastly running through the Night Market maps and getting into more difficult fights all the time, I also could see some players suddenly finding all other parts of ESO boring in comparison, for example, even if they had been totally okay with them before. As in: Overland fights having felt easy before, but after playing the Night Market for a while, they might feel super-easy now (and yes, I know, we have difficulty options now). But it's also the way one moves through the maps. It's obvious there's a big difference not only in difficulty, but also in pace between the Night Market and most other ESO content. Compared to the Night Market playstyle, all other content feels slow in a way. I enjoy that much more than the constant running, but I did wonder if the Night Market experience could have made all other content feel bland to some players now. Of course I appreciate ESO offering different kinds of content to the very diverse playerbase, but I still wonder.

metheglyn wrote: »

I know UI reorginization is a big plus for some players, so it's nice they'll be able to fiddle with it to their heart's content. LotRO has always had the ability to reorganize their UI in such a way, and it's nice to be able to put elements exactly where you want them, but I've never messed with it too much. I can't say I've ever been bothered by the UI layout of ESO, so I don't see myself using this new feature. What I want them to do is add a mini-map. I know there's an add-on for it, and I used it for a long time, but I much prefer for things like that to be part of the game itself. But, considering the new reality of the team, who knows what they'll be able to do regarding QOL updates, or anything, really. I really liked that ZOS had a team devoted to QOL/pain points, because those small things are valuable additions to the overall feel of the game. As you said: we'll have to see what the remaining team members are able to do.

What would be important to me is, if new UI items get added, they should be optional. I like my UI as minimal as possible (the way it is right now is okay for me). I personally would absolutely hate having a mini map on my screen. I can easily navigate by opening the normal map for the fraction of a second while riding (or mostly I just pin a location upon arriving in a zone and then just follow the compass marker), I just don't need it, and having it on my screen would take away visibility of my surroundings, especially since I don't have a super huge screen.

I fully understand the dislike for using add-ons, though. After every update, something breaks. It was okay for me when we had those 4 yearly updates - which meant not having to update all add-ons that often. Now, with more frequent smaller updates... Well, I am getting a little annoyed. Sometimes an add-on creator barely get their add-on updated before the next update drops that messes everything up again.

metheglyn wrote: »

They seem to love bureaucracy, but have very poor organizational skills, since they never seem to be able to locate information they need when they need it. If the Vault of Moawita is anything to go by, they also lose important things quite easily. So now my question is: was this writ supposed to be in their archives and somehow went missing, or was this a copy given to Mannimarco as they kicked him out (assuming they write out copies of their edicts)?

I don't think Mannimarco received any documents when leaving - at least it never sounded that way. So I'd assume it was something for the Psijic archives, that miraculously got lost somehow. Like many loot/contraband items. Or perhaps it's even fake?

metheglyn wrote: »

The fact that the name was written in a different color is what made me think of someone writing over the original document--that the illegible runes were also written in red. Or maybe when the Psijic scribe was drawing up the writ, they ran out of regular ink just when they got to the name and had to use their back-up ink, which happened to red.

My first thought went to the tradition of writing the name of the dead in read particularly because it was a name - but honestly, I'm not even sure if it has such a special meaning. In medieval manuscripts, it wasn't that uncommon to write some words or phrases in a different color (usually red, while the rest was black) to emphasize them. Today, bold or italic text is used, which obviously wasn't really possible with the handwritten letters back then. Underlining also wasn't always feasible. So they needed to use colors if they wanted to emphasize something. A bit more on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubrication
And putting emphasis on a name in a bureaucratic document, so everyone can immediately see whom it is about, would absolutely make sense.

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, as we've seen plenty of times, creative endeavors are often harmed by the decisions of the people whose job it is to make the creativity profitable. Someone probably read a study or something about how people these days engage with media in a different way (multiple screens) and drew certain conclusions about what media had to be like going forward in order to succeed in this new way of consumption.

I wonder if usually, people are hired exactly for this kind of writing, or if "normal" writers are pushed by directives to write like this. I clearly know I couldn't, and I wouldn't want to. The whole idea of writing for people who don't actually read or listen just seems so absurd to me. Like a waste of time, somehow. In any way, it's a weird development we see in mainstream media now.

metheglyn wrote: »

As to what, precisely, Sanguine wanted our characters to do, I can't say if that fit with the Sanguine character or not--the most I know of Sanguine was their Skyrim appearance, and that was just...well, I didn't care for it. I can say that ESO Sanguine doesn't seem all that much different to me than Skyrim Sanguine, but I'm sure there are details I'm missing.

I just know that the background lore is much more intense, usually very tragic for the people involved, and often even outright brutal. The actual depiction in game then being light-hearted and funny feels off to me. It's basically the absolute opposite to what Sanguine stands for lore-wise: He's not the funny party guy, he's the demon seducing people into addiction, and into an increasingly extreme moral decline (beginning harmlessly, until they end up at absolutely despisible acts - imagine it starting with a bit of overeating and ending with cannibalism, or starting with a bit of flirtyness and ending with assault and murder; Sanguine's theme as shown in background lore is basically always a downwards spiral from the maybe sometimes not entirely morally correct but still harmless fun, to the utterly horrid). I can even understand, of course, that they don't want to graphically depict the most horrible things in game. But acting like it all was just harmless fun and there were no consequences at all feels like it completely ignores the central point of his theme.

Which made me wonder if they did this deliberately because they might think people today don't enjoy any grim stories anymore, but want only light-hearted and funny content? I mean, there's a general shift in tone when it comes to ESO, or at least it feels like that to me; I have the feeling the older chapter stories were usually more mature and more serious.

metheglyn wrote: »

I have found it harder in recent years to figure out why my character would be doing some of the things that come up in the quests. And even in the quests where the decisions do fit my character, I can see how they wouldn't work for others. One recent example is all the support and help we give Darien in the Solstice quests. It seems to take for granted that the player character is invested in and cares about Darien's past/present/future and mental state. I know he's a popular NPC, but I also know there are people who don't care for him, and for those players, there's no way around being the super-supportive helpful Darien side-kick/buddy.

Yes, I absolutely don't like the game defining my character's stance towards other characters for me. A more vague and open depiction would be what I prefer over that. Or, now that there is a dialogue choice system, actually getting decent choices there. There had been some, yes, but too often they did not matter much. As I had been writing earlier: The choice of being either "funny" or "friendly" towards an npc isn't really interesting. Interesting would be options that are vastly different and actually portray a very different stance towards a character.

metheglyn wrote: »

Something to look forward to, for sure!

At least it's never getting boring here.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Really happy to see you're back. And I hope you were doing ok during the crazy heat the past month.

It wasn't exactly pleasant, but I was more worried about my plants, to be honest. I'm not killed that easily.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I've been having the same thought, honestly, about not being sure there's even going to be any more story content. Even before the news the other day, I've been worried about it. It started with the official announcement of chapters to seasons or whatever because, although I don't think chapters are necessary for new stories, I did not have faith that it would mean anything else for ESO.

Yes, it's the whole tendency. Ending the chapter concept and concentrating on cosmetics as the main source of revenue looked bad. The concept of the Night Market with completely random tasks, and the minimal lore and story only serving as some kind of backdrop, looked particularly bad (especially because I know that concepts often get reused, so if we see one thing coming up, it will usually come up again - more about that later). And now the next problem... It's disheartening.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

And the layoffs were disturbing to say the least. Someone posted an image list of the ESO devs in another thread here, and 6 of the 9 writers are confirmed gone. I've seen people throw around the idea that maybe there's going to be a shift towards AI written stories which would be disgusting and sad. Etc etc. So, yeah, it does feel like it would be silly to discuss this stuff at all anymore (but I like reading your insights regardless, so I don't want to suggest you stop lol, or anyone). I also feel this way about any kind of ESO suggestion at the moment, honestly, since everything about the game is seeming grim.

I'm not exactly positive about all this either. Especially since the writer I had most hope for - who wrote Zerith-var's story and Corelanya Manor, which were for me the best stories in the past few years, that still conveyed the "typical TES spirit" that I love about this fictional world - also lost her job.

But maybe it's a small comfort to remember that ESO only had a handful of writers and lore people when it started. The number went up, almost doubled, in the later years. And despite it having been a very small team in the beginning, those stories are often still considered ESO's best ones until today. So even with a small team, something great could be written, potentially. It would just take more time.

I'm more concerned about possible directives from decision-makers above. If the directive is to focus on cosmetics for sale, or on more or less lore-less replayable arcade-like content,... Well.

I've decided I'll still continue writing here, just for fun. Maybe until it all ends - though of course I hope ESO still has a future and many years ahead!

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

RE the ESO fatigue: I'm feeling the same way too. I've been enjoying overland difficulty and redoing old zone quests, but all the actual new content is just not it. I've definitely played the least amount this year as I ever have since I started playing this game. Also the Sages Vault, from what I saw during the stream a few weeks ago, is, yeah, a pass from me. I'm just not interested in a platform (?) style game-within-a-game. It gives off the arcade vibe like the Night Market. I don't want to play that stuff.

They said they want to try new things, different approaches (Wasn't there something in their latest trial preview that reminded of some old Nintendo racing game?!)... And I think that's valid; But indeed, I now often miss what makes TES typical TES. Running around randomly killing enemies for points in some remote world isn't it. Solving random puzzles for whatever in some remote world isn't it easier. What motivation would my character have to do these things? How is this related to Tamriel, which should be a vast living world with so many different cultures and their individual ways of living, struggles and conflicts? I don't need a TES game to randomly shoot things or push levers. I wish there was a bigger focus on the strong points of The Elder Scrolls again. The world and the huge amount of background lore spanning several millenia has been what attracted so many people to the series. If it's about running around and earning points, there are enough other games for that.

So. I wanted to write a bit about my experiences on day 1 of Season 1.

First I checked the new Tome - and found nothing of interest for me at all (sure, I'll pick up the currencies and the crown crates, but there's not a single thing I really, really not want to miss). Now, such things are always subjective, but I somehow generally expected something more grand, after they had emphasized that this was the real start (being Tome 1), and the last one as Tome 0 was just some... Well, prelude to it, in a way, but not really it? I honestly even had the feeling that Tome 0 had better items than the new one. Generally, I'm not sure if trying to gain all revenue from this will work well. Not sure if most people just want random collectibles enough to be willing to spend that amount of money for them. I know I personally would only buy a Tome (ignoring the current chaos about how long ESO might or might not still last for a moment) if the items absolutely fit my taste. Which means of the hundreds of possibilities they could come up with - most are likely something I don't care for enough to be willing to spend any money on it. And even if there's something interesting, if it's just one or two things, I'd also find the price too high since I'd need to buy the whole bundle. But since battle passes seem to work for other games - I don't know.

The seasonal bazaar offers... I got 2 pets, a costume and 3 statuettes I was still missing. Also, there's 3 things I'm not interested in. Except for that, I already had everything. At least the currency doesn't expire, so I can save it for next season or when the Impresia returns or something.

Then I did the weekly chores, which were the same as last season. Dolmens, difficult enemies, collect mats. It was easily done - luckily, as it's just boring filler content. I'll only do those until I have bought everything I want, obviously.

Then, I wanted to try one of these new dynamic event things. I arrived at the one in Auridon, but unfortunately, except for masses of people standing around, there wasn't actually anything I could interact with - I think it had just ended. And I was told that these started only once every 30 minutes, and obviously I had better things to do than to wait there, so I left again (and didn't bother with it again the rest of the evening). That somehow reminded me of the Night Market skirmishes, just that the new things are missing a visible timer (unless I've missed that). I wonder why the respawn time was set to every 30 minutes and not about 5 minutes like dolmens and world bosses? A 5-minute wait I can justify, a 30-minute wait - no. I have limited free time for playing ESO, I don't want to spend a big amount of it just waiting somewhere.

After that, I looked into Favors. The writ boards are easy to find, but having that vampire quest guy standing next to it and babbling all the time was annoying. That npc could need a better placement - somewhere far, far away from that spot.

The tasks themselves were underwhelming, to be honest. It were two random "kill 1 delveboss in zone x" tasks, and one delivery task (basically like a fetch quest, but the other way round). I had expected the tasks to be more specific, and most of all something that really fits the character we're supposed to do these tasks for. This way, it just felt absolutely random again.

There's also absolutely no npc interaction. I had heard there was a courier so I thought there was specific dialogue at least; or maybe at the end of the delivery quest, having to take the item to an npc who would have a bit lore/flavor text - but nothing! You pick up the task from the writ board, it even always has the same text (the actual task text only shows up in the quest log), then you go kill whatever or take item whatever to location whoknowswhere, in case of the delivery quest, there's not even a npc you need to deliver the stuff to, but you also just throw it into another box at the target location - and then you run back to the writ board to click on the box there to get the reward. It claims you were "leaving proof" that you've done the task in that box, though it's never specified what that proof would be, and in case of the delivery quest, there's not really anything our character could have brought back anyway.

It's basically another iteration of the random Night Market daily zone quests: Take task from note, do random thing, get reward from random box. Fully unvoiced, no npc interaction at all. Despite one of the strong points of ESO always having been having so many npcs, fully voiced dialogues, and always at least some story/lore around quests, instead of just running from a to b, doing some random thing, and then having some random text displayed that you've done it and received whatever for it.

Now, we were promised thank you letters at least. So I had hoped those would be more interesting. The first one each was just an introduction of each character (Lady Arabelle, Urcelmo, Holgunn) - but I already noticed they're all written like we had never met that person before, despite our characters having worked extensively with all of them in earlier quests. Urcelmo's could at least be read as a general thank you letter and as if he simply doesn't know who has done the task, but the other ones somehow felt like they were trying to be personal,... so it felt particularly off. It was disappointing.

And if it feels rewarding to do random boring daily chores just to get a small letter (comparable to those short hireling letters) as the only story bit for doing them? Let alone getting a story snippet as a reward instead of actually playing a story feels like a weird concept to me.

metheglyn · July 9

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, now Syldras has it, and I'm sure nothing bad can come of that!

I've already planned experiments! I can say it has some sort of magic aura emanating from it, but I'm not sure which kind specifically (probably Ancient Mysterious Psijic Magic). As I also conveniently have a certain guest in a marble box in my basement, I'll test if there's any reciprocal reactivity.

Well, do let me know how that works out. Whatever 'that' might be....

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that aspect. As someone who has done all the story content, in order, on my main, and who remembers fairly well what's going on in the world of Tamriel, I admit I sometimes don't consider what it's like to be new to this world and game and not know all the details. These days I know I can just skip the dialogue options that have my character ask questions like, "Who's Vivec?", though from a role-playing perspective I'm often slightly bothered by seeing them available in the first place (particularly when my character is a Dunmer who was born and raised in Balmora and hasn't stepped foot off Vvardenfell yet).

It should be taken into consideration if a player character has done certain quests before or not. I mean, sometimes this game does that (they've even changed some base game Hermaeus Mora dialogue to be different in case a character has finished Necrom before those quests) - but often, sadly, not.

And when it comes to native Dunmer player characters asking about the Tribunal - there'd always be the possibility to word dialogues in a more vague way or to just make those questions an optional side branch of a dialogue.

They are optional side branches. That's why I can choose to not select them and still progress the quest. What I really dislike is when the "dummy" response is the only way you can advance the quest. It becomes a case of: ask the most blindingly obvious question or don't finish the quest. Ideally ZOS would have the time and ability to have every branch of dialogue track player character progress, so the player isn't met with frustrating dialogue options like that, but I honestly don't know how feasible that ever was.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Was there a Golden Pursuit with scribing? I don't remember. I don't think I did that quest right away, because scribing just wasn't that interesting to me. Regardless of those details, I understand your point: why do they feel the need to pair new story content with a Golden Pursuit? I don't know. It's possible it's just another marketing thing, a way to hype up the content. I'd heard there was going to be a Pursuit for the Thieves Guild story, but didn't pay it much mind. Depending on how long it lasts, I may or may not get it done--if it's only a week-long thing, I won't; if it's around for a couple of months, I might. The Pursuit for the Night Market ran for a long time, didn't it? For myself, I'd prefer to not have Pursuits tied to story content, but it's possible ZOS is trying to give people a wider variety of Pursuits/rewards instead of just having them tied to events/systems.

I need to correct myself: The new Thieves Guild questline didn't get a Golden Pursuit (at least I didn't see a new one yesterday) - according to some monthly roadmap I've seen now it's the Sheogorath questline at the end of July that will get one (lasting 2 weeks). Thieves Guild did get related seasonal chores in the chore book, through, also only lasting for 2 weeks. Though in that case, if one doesn't do them, the only thing "lost" are tome points, at least, and those aren't exactly scarce (last season I stopped doing chores immediately when I had unlocked everything, and still ended up with about 14k extra points at the end of the season - they were converted into gold, which was a useful plus). It will be different with Sheogorath, especially since I read that those Golden Pursuit rewards will thematically be closely related to the questline's theme, so people might really want to get those.

I'm guessing those rewards will be cheese-themed or something, in which case: I can do without. But regardless of how nice the Golden Pursuit rewards are, they aren't going to be nice enough to get me to rush through one of the few quest lines we're getting this year.

Syldras wrote: »

In case of Scribing, it wasn't a Golden Pursuit, but one needed to complete achievements (from that achievement menu) to be able to claim a few items from the crown store for free. And these achievements were about reaching certain stages of the Scribing questline. So if one wanted to claim those items, one needed to rush through the questline right after release. It wasn't exactly pleasant.

I do understand they probably do that so there are high engagement numbers they can present somewhere (basically to show how much of a success the new content was), but for questers who want to immerse and experience stories in peace, it's really not fun. I'd go so far to say it's off-putting in a way.

I find it off-putting, too. When I log into the game to play, I generally have a plan or a goal of what I want to accomplish with my time. Sometimes I have time to just wander about, but generally I need to be careful with my game time, and doing content at someone else's behest doesn't sit well with me. Hah, I sound kind of like a grump here, don't I?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As far as FOMO goes, they're never going to get rid of it entirely. Regarding the Season Zero ad text: in a charitable light, you could see it as reminding people to claim their rewards before the season ends (since the strange auto-claim feature doesn't, in fact, claim everything), but most likely it's to urge anyone who might have been tempted to purchase the upgrade to do so because this is their last chance. It's very much FOMO marketing in that regard.

It had a "Buy now!" button, so it clearly wasn't just a well-meaning reminder for people who already participated in it to claim their stuff. I just find it ironic that this is more extreme FOMO marketing than we ever had seen in old ESO ads, and that this has started right after they told us in a stream that they heard the playerbase's wish and reduced FOMO. It just doesn't match.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was an innocent and well-meaning reminder. I just meant it could, if it you looked at it charitably, also be considered that. It was definitely utilizing FOMO as a selling point. But as to it not matching their stance, they didn't say they were getting rid of all FOMO (something they couldn't even do, since FOMO is very much a person's own thing), just that they were going to cut out some things that might induce it. The ad didn't bother me--I was never going to purchase the tome--but I do see how it could be considered a bit much.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You'd better! And they better be the best notes you've ever taken! (Would use a smiley-guy of some variety here to indicate tone if the smilies weren't so very large and frightening.)

I really hope the sudden forum problems (Isn't it weird how they just started one day?) will get fixed soon. The invisible edit button is also slightly annoying.

If the problems haven't been fixed by now, I doubt they will be. Whoever is in charge of keeping the forum infrastructure sound isn't doing their job very well. I understand it's not under ZOS' control, so I just live with the inadequate forum tools.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is interesting how certain game components/features can alter our playstyles. I find myself sometimes speedrunning through content because I've just been speedrunning through my crafting dailies or event quests, and I have to actually check myself and slow down, because I don't actually like speedrunning through content. It's like the brain kicks into automation very easily, and overrides your own personal preferences.

I also think it's a factor that possibly needs to be considered when designing things. How encouraging one specific type of behavior in one heavily hyped event activity could change behavior in other parts of the game, or also shape the expectations and feelings of the players - for the better or for the worse. After fastly running through the Night Market maps and getting into more difficult fights all the time, I also could see some players suddenly finding all other parts of ESO boring in comparison, for example, even if they had been totally okay with them before. As in: Overland fights having felt easy before, but after playing the Night Market for a while, they might feel super-easy now (and yes, I know, we have difficulty options now). But it's also the way one moves through the maps. It's obvious there's a big difference not only in difficulty, but also in pace between the Night Market and most other ESO content. Compared to the Night Market playstyle, all other content feels slow in a way. I enjoy that much more than the constant running, but I did wonder if the Night Market experience could have made all other content feel bland to some players now. Of course I appreciate ESO offering different kinds of content to the very diverse playerbase, but I still wonder.

One of the things I didn't like about Night Market was how hectic and frenetic it was. That is completely opposite to how I prefer to play. I don't mind that places like that exist in game for people who enjoy that kind of gameplay--like has been mentioned, players have wildly differing things they like in this game--but I'm not going to partake of it and I hope that style of encouraged gameplay doesn't start to become part of everything they design.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know UI reorginization is a big plus for some players, so it's nice they'll be able to fiddle with it to their heart's content. LotRO has always had the ability to reorganize their UI in such a way, and it's nice to be able to put elements exactly where you want them, but I've never messed with it too much. I can't say I've ever been bothered by the UI layout of ESO, so I don't see myself using this new feature. What I want them to do is add a mini-map. I know there's an add-on for it, and I used it for a long time, but I much prefer for things like that to be part of the game itself. But, considering the new reality of the team, who knows what they'll be able to do regarding QOL updates, or anything, really. I really liked that ZOS had a team devoted to QOL/pain points, because those small things are valuable additions to the overall feel of the game. As you said: we'll have to see what the remaining team members are able to do.

What would be important to me is, if new UI items get added, they should be optional. I like my UI as minimal as possible (the way it is right now is okay for me). I personally would absolutely hate having a mini map on my screen. I can easily navigate by opening the normal map for the fraction of a second while riding (or mostly I just pin a location upon arriving in a zone and then just follow the compass marker), I just don't need it, and having it on my screen would take away visibility of my surroundings, especially since I don't have a super huge screen.

I fully understand the dislike for using add-ons, though. After every update, something breaks. It was okay for me when we had those 4 yearly updates - which meant not having to update all add-ons that often. Now, with more frequent smaller updates... Well, I am getting a little annoyed. Sometimes an add-on creator barely get their add-on updated before the next update drops that messes everything up again.

Options are always nice, and since they have made the UI so customizable, I would hope that anything else they might add in future would be equally so. But honestly, if they have gone this long without adding a mini-map, I doubt it's on their radar. I'll have to use your pin a location method and see how that works for me--I never considered that. I mean, I'll probably still get lost a lot, but it might help as a general guide.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They seem to love bureaucracy, but have very poor organizational skills, since they never seem to be able to locate information they need when they need it. If the Vault of Moawita is anything to go by, they also lose important things quite easily. So now my question is: was this writ supposed to be in their archives and somehow went missing, or was this a copy given to Mannimarco as they kicked him out (assuming they write out copies of their edicts)?

I don't think Mannimarco received any documents when leaving - at least it never sounded that way. So I'd assume it was something for the Psijic archives, that miraculously got lost somehow. Like many loot/contraband items. Or perhaps it's even fake?

Ok, so going on the idea that Mannimarco wasn't given a copy of his writ of banishment, here's what I think could have happened. Mannimarco knew the document existed, and he wanted it. Why did he want it? To use in a scheme of revenge against the Psijics, of course! (Dude loves his revenge). He convinced someone to steal it for him (and then probably killed that person, because why not) and, once he had it, experimented with it, hence the indecipherable and bizarre runes. He never got to the end point of his revenge before other matters took his attention, however, and that's why we never learned about it before now. How did it then end up in the Night Market? Well, Mannimarco spent a lot of time in Coldharbour, so he probably had the writ there as he was conducting his experiments with it. Then, after he got sidelined by the Vestige and chained up by Molag Bal, his Coldharbour castle likely got plundered by any manner of daedra, one of whom took the writ as loot. At some point, that daedra ended up in the Night Market and lost the writ, and you found it. Case closed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, as we've seen plenty of times, creative endeavors are often harmed by the decisions of the people whose job it is to make the creativity profitable. Someone probably read a study or something about how people these days engage with media in a different way (multiple screens) and drew certain conclusions about what media had to be like going forward in order to succeed in this new way of consumption.

I wonder if usually, people are hired exactly for this kind of writing, or if "normal" writers are pushed by directives to write like this. I clearly know I couldn't, and I wouldn't want to. The whole idea of writing for people who don't actually read or listen just seems so absurd to me. Like a waste of time, somehow. In any way, it's a weird development we see in mainstream media now.

If you're a staff writer on a show, and the directive comes down to write a certain way, whether or not you fall in with that would likely depend on a number of factors, one of which being: you need this job. But I don't really know how writers' rooms work and how much interference from the executives is tolerated. I guess it depends on the show and the people involved in creating it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to what, precisely, Sanguine wanted our characters to do, I can't say if that fit with the Sanguine character or not--the most I know of Sanguine was their Skyrim appearance, and that was just...well, I didn't care for it. I can say that ESO Sanguine doesn't seem all that much different to me than Skyrim Sanguine, but I'm sure there are details I'm missing.

I just know that the background lore is much more intense, usually very tragic for the people involved, and often even outright brutal. The actual depiction in game then being light-hearted and funny feels off to me. It's basically the absolute opposite to what Sanguine stands for lore-wise: He's not the funny party guy, he's the demon seducing people into addiction, and into an increasingly extreme moral decline (beginning harmlessly, until they end up at absolutely despisible acts - imagine it starting with a bit of overeating and ending with cannibalism, or starting with a bit of flirtyness and ending with assault and murder; Sanguine's theme as shown in background lore is basically always a downwards spiral from the maybe sometimes not entirely morally correct but still harmless fun, to the utterly horrid). I can even understand, of course, that they don't want to graphically depict the most horrible things in game. But acting like it all was just harmless fun and there were no consequences at all feels like it completely ignores the central point of his theme.

Which made me wonder if they did this deliberately because they might think people today don't enjoy any grim stories anymore, but want only light-hearted and funny content? I mean, there's a general shift in tone when it comes to ESO, or at least it feels like that to me; I have the feeling the older chapter stories were usually more mature and more serious.

If Sanguine is as brutal as you describe, there are ratings reasons they can't depict some of it. But also, if Sanguine is as brutal as you describe, I've never seen it depicted in the Elder Scrolls--or if I have, I don't remember it. I do remember Skyrim Sanguine, and he wasn't brutal at all. More of a trickster than anything else, it seemed. But, again, perhaps I'm misremembering.

As far as whether or not people want grim stories, I've seen nothing to indicate that they don't. I think ESO's stories are plenty grim, even the more recent ones. I will say I don't want to be met on all sides with grim-dark depressing stories. What I want are stories that fit the world of the Elder Scrolls and the people and cultures in it.

Syldras wrote: »

So. I wanted to write a bit about my experiences on day 1 of Season 1.

First I checked the new Tome - and found nothing of interest for me at all (sure, I'll pick up the currencies and the crown crates, but there's not a single thing I really, really not want to miss). Now, such things are always subjective, but I somehow generally expected something more grand, after they had emphasized that this was the real start (being Tome 1), and the last one as Tome 0 was just some... Well, prelude to it, in a way, but not really it? I honestly even had the feeling that Tome 0 had better items than the new one. Generally, I'm not sure if trying to gain all revenue from this will work well. Not sure if most people just want random collectibles enough to be willing to spend that amount of money for them. I know I personally would only buy a Tome (ignoring the current chaos about how long ESO might or might not still last for a moment) if the items absolutely fit my taste. Which means of the hundreds of possibilities they could come up with - most are likely something I don't care for enough to be willing to spend any money on it. And even if there's something interesting, if it's just one or two things, I'd also find the price too high since I'd need to buy the whole bundle. But since battle passes seem to work for other games - I don't know.

I'm also not interested in the cosmetics/pet/mount from the paid portion of the tome, but the free track has plenty of items I want. I've seen people on the forum mention they are getting one or the other of the paid versions of the tomes, so there is definitely a market for it. I have no idea if there will ever be a tome offering that will tempt me to buy it, but so far there hasn't been.

Syldras wrote: »

The seasonal bazaar offers... I got 2 pets, a costume and 3 statuettes I was still missing. Also, there's 3 things I'm not interested in. Except for that, I already had everything. At least the currency doesn't expire, so I can save it for next season or when the Impresia returns or something.

I haven't yet checked the bazaar, but since one of the main reasons it was implemented was to allow people to get things they might have missed in the past, I don't expect many of the items to appeal to me. That's fine--I can just save my trade bars for when something does show up. They don't have a cap and don't expire, which is really nice.

Syldras wrote: »

Then I did the weekly chores, which were the same as last season. Dolmens, difficult enemies, collect mats. It was easily done - luckily, as it's just boring filler content. I'll only do those until I have bought everything I want, obviously.

The tasks are never going to be exciting, at least not for me. They'll be things I do until I'm finished buying from the tome, and then any points that I accrue after that will just be a bit of bonus gold. Really hoping ZOS will refine the auto-buy feature to let us opt out, because if I don't buy a collectible, it's because I don't want it. I promise to never come here and cry about missing a tome item if they let me opt out of auto-buy.

Syldras wrote: »

Then, I wanted to try one of these new dynamic event things. I arrived at the one in Auridon, but unfortunately, except for masses of people standing around, there wasn't actually anything I could interact with - I think it had just ended. And I was told that these started only once every 30 minutes, and obviously I had better things to do than to wait there, so I left again (and didn't bother with it again the rest of the evening). That somehow reminded me of the Night Market skirmishes, just that the new things are missing a visible timer (unless I've missed that). I wonder why the respawn time was set to every 30 minutes and not about 5 minutes like dolmens and world bosses? A 5-minute wait I can justify, a 30-minute wait - no. I have limited free time for playing ESO, I don't want to spend a big amount of it just waiting somewhere.

I happened to be in Stonefalls when that one was starting up. It was so crowded with people spamming laser beams and other aoe that I literally could not see what was supposedly going on. If the npcs didn't have huge green arrows over their heads showing their location, I wouldn't have known what we were following along the road. At some point I realized there were chests to loot as we went along--I might have missed one along the way--and then at the end there was a fight with a mob I couldn't see other than it's rapidly dwindling health bar, and the npcs were talking a bit, but I really didn't know what the story was meant to be. "Sorry I gave you a fright," one of them said. I do know I was helping to escort someone named Bilsa and there was a grandmother involved in some way. I would like to experience the encounter again in less-crowded conditions, so perhaps in a week or two it won't be so crowded. Then again, it might become a big-time farming thing for whatever the chests drop. All in all, it wasn't fun or engaging--it was just there. But that's on me for participating in any new content on day of release--I know better than that.

Syldras wrote: »

After that, I looked into Favors. The writ boards are easy to find, but having that vampire quest guy standing next to it and babbling all the time was annoying. That npc could need a better placement - somewhere far, far away from that spot.

Now, we were promised thank you letters at least. So I had hoped those would be more interesting. The first one each was just an introduction of each character (Lady Arabelle, Urcelmo, Holgunn) - but I already noticed they're all written like we had never met that person before, despite our characters having worked extensively with all of them in earlier quests. Urcelmo's could at least be read as a general thank you letter and as if he simply doesn't know who has done the task, but the other ones somehow felt like they were trying to be personal,... so it felt particularly off. It was disappointing.

And if it feels rewarding to do random boring daily chores just to get a small letter (comparable to those short hireling letters) as the only story bit for doing them? Let alone getting a story snippet as a reward instead of actually playing a story feels like a weird concept to me.

I haven't yet done any of the favor quests, but I have a couple of thoughts on them based on what you said.

Story/lorewise, since the NPCs are handing out these quests via a third party, it makes sense that the initial letter is pretty basic, as they don't necessarily know who is going to pick it up. (I'm assuming the letter was written to give to you upon completion of the task before you ever picked up the task). In gameplay terms, since anyone can do these at any time, they're likely covering the bases with an introductory letter so players who never met these NPCs get to know who they are.

From what I understand, these favor quests take place over twenty days, so hopefully the letters get more story-driven or have a stronger narrative focus. An article likened them to the hireling letters, and those always started out fairly basic with a "Hi, I'm the person providing you with materials," and eventually worked up to create a full story about the hireling's life. I much enjoyed the hireling stories, so if these letters follow a similar trajectory, I won't feel let down.

I'll try to find time to do one today and see how it feels in game.