wilsonwjesse wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

Broken classes like WW, broken set items like shattered paths signet and builds like the pulse gank are the main things that will kill the game.

I stopped my ESO+ and stopped playing until they nerf WW, DK, and Signet. They've had 2 patches to nerf Signet because we warned them in the 49pts. If they never nerf these, then I'm honestly done with the game. I love the game, but I can't play it if it's not even balanced within one order of magnitude.

It's not even that I can't play it - it's that even a balance issue. Even if everything was balanced by being this OP, then there is no more skill. It's just see if you get lucky first.

Chase0351 wrote: »

Broken classes like WW, broken set items like shattered paths signet and builds like the pulse gank are the main things that will kill the game.

Luneca wrote: »

Imagine being so invested in a single skill being OP that you have to run around everywhere people discuss it and "participate" in the discussion by attempting to bait everyone instead of debate them. I could never be that invested in a change unless it would benefit everyone or fix a problem/bug in the game.

I'm a "real" DK main (typing this made me want to vomit tbh) here and I don't think the change was warranted in the slightest. Most of the DK changes WEREN'T NEEDED in the current context of the game.

DKs survived before inhale was changed, and I'm pretty sure they would after. The crazy part is how people claim that DK couldn't sustain before these changes were made. Are you serious? Are we really playing the same game? DK was one of the easiest classes to sustain on after the hybridization patches, and it was so easy that ZOS had to nerf sustain on the class because they had lowered the cost of skill so much relative to the other classes. So they nerfed the amount of magicka and stamina that combustion was giving -- before the rework even happened.

I've actually followed the changes that have been done on DK because I have 7 of them and they are hybrid builds NOT using cheese like Wretched Vitality, so when ZOS changes sustain it has a more profound negative impact on the builds I use vs. the average META DK like the ones defending the skill claiming it's not OP.

I'm literally not running sustain sets and using heavy attacks, common sense, and alternative methods to balance mag and stam all the time. I can tell you that on those hybrids HoF and SoF are both extremely powerful and make it so that I literally don't have to heavy attack, without even running sustain sets. But here we have someone claiming it's not true. Of course they speak for all builds in the game when they are just running the META and haven't moved beyond it?

The arguement that "ah well everthing will be OP" at some arbitrary time in the future is a poor argument because, again, no one knows the future. From the looks of how ZOS is micromanaging the other classes that haven't gotten reworked (literally nerfing them and providing ZERO buffs to offset these nerfs), I highly doubt ZOS will boost the power of every class in the same way.

Also, saying that HoF/SoF damage is not noticeable is really an insane take. Before DK was reworked, on my Templar I slotted inhale to use with jabs. Inahale + Jabs + Shalks & ult and I used it with great effect in the game at every encounter possible. Then, I got some friends to run around with me and test it together.

And guess what? It was REALLY strong then, and now with the skill changed to give HP%, and resources the way that it does, it's even stronger when running with those friends because we can stack a lot of HP, damage and invest little to nothing in sustain. That also meant that we can put more into things like speed . It also means we can run it in a ball formation since we aren't all bots and know exactly what we are doing. And it's also a result of HP being so easy to stack which is why every HP% heal needs to be cut from the game IMO, but we're not discussing that here.

So we got the ability to add more damage and speed because of a singular skill and it's not OP according to some of the players that keep defending it. Just the removal of needing a target made the skill much more powerful than it was in the past. That's a fact; it's now usable at any point in time vs a restricted one, that's before we get into how it gives multidues more sustain without a target being neeeded vs. previously -- oh and it SCALES

^ Doesn't that above sound familiar? Wow, it's literally a mirror of the WW problem. Something was added to a skill, the skill gained more functionality and the secondary effects scale higher and higher when they did not before, providing a benefit that now allows you to build elsewhere and distribute the power budget of the build in a way that was impossible before the change.

And we still have people coming here and claiming it's not OP, and it's not a problem. If so, then...why are you defending it so hard? It doesn't matter and doesn't do what people say, so why do you need that skill to stay the way it is?

We all know the answer. No one is an elder in this village smarter than anyone else here. No one is an elder in this village wtih a longer beard than anyone else here, except maybe in their imagination. To try and pretend to be a senior player and then insult everyone else to justify a point of view is the worst kind of argumentation I have ever seen on the forums.

Because I'll be honest, even if it were true, when we all know it's not; I don't care and I am sure no one else does. It doesn't change the fact that the skill is OP and it doesn't change that it was ultimately an unwarranted change. And since the future hasn't came and may never come, you cannot cite it in defense of it.

We still don't even know what they are going to do with Wardens. And Warden will be a problem for sure as well because it's already one of the best classes. Right now Warden can still compete with DK, meanwhile all the classes that can't won't get anything until 2027? Wait, I'm getting off topic. No more needs to be said right now.

Chase0351 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This is just a general rant.

Seeing the meta plays out like this isn't surprising at all. Historically, I and many PTS testers have accurately predicted several problematic changes that would result in toxic metas (Vateshraan proc, Hardened Ward change on Sorc, reworked DK, and now reworked WW just to name a few). It always happened exactly as anticipated. When the Hardened Ward buff made Sorc too strong on the PTS, my nerf-Ward threads were met with backlash, yet 3 months later people flooded the forums complaining this exact skill. When 2.0 DK rolled out on PTS, I again attempted to address the infinite sustain of Heart of Flame. People overwhelmingly disagreed with me, only to express distaste for the same issue 1 month later on the live server. Now comes WW, and we will see this pattern repeat.

PTS is there for a reason, and people like me are there to test these changes and provide feedback. Sure, anyone can say that a class is strong because it's just been reworked, but to pin-point exactly what the problem is requires theory-crafting knowledge and PvP experience. 2.0 DK does an insane amount of burst damage and is also extremely tanky, but their combo is predictable and their defense can be exploited. What actually enables them to reach an unprecedented power level is the god-tier sustain from Inhale. When a skill frees up an entire theory-crafting pillar, it allows you to allocate so much resources into other stats and really push it over the edge. HoF alone enables people to use Armor Pots instead of Tripots, drop Orzoga for Sugar Skulls, and drop Sustained By Suffering for a tanky CP like Juggernaut/Fortified/Boundless Vitality. They gain an insane amount of stats that a normal ability would never be able to replicate, and this can easily be proven by comparing stat difference between HoF and say, Netch or Rune Focus. A simple reduction to this ability's sustain would have largely resolved this issue. Likewise, WW is absurdly busted because of its unparalleled 1v1 pressure and infinite sustain, yet when its HP stays at a normal level (30-35k), you can actually one-shot it even if it takes a lot of effort. The correct adjustment would be to first tone down its HP-scaling heals.

But, some people aren't willing to accept this fact. They will openly and willingly go through mental hoops to convince themselves and others that these classes and skills are inherently balanced because they're "needed to counter other things". No, that is not how you balance games. Using the presence of an overperforming class/skill to justify keeping another overperforming one creates a vicious cycle of balance nightmare that's only going to drive away more players.

Perhaps what's most insulting is that some of these players have the audacity to tell other people that they "just have to be patient and wait their turn" and shut down any attempts to balance a revamped class. Sure, that's very easy to say if your main class is the first one to receive the rework. You're not spending 2 years waiting for a spot at the table. To say that to other fellow gamers, who have probably spent real-life money in this product, that they should just wait 1-2 years for their turn while being severely disadvantaged in PvP is spitting directly in their face. It's disingenuous, tone-deaf, and unacceptable. Surely enough, those players would be the first one to complain if their class wasn't reworked first but 1-2 years later instead.

HoF is fine. It’s not the one stop miracle skill some people say it is. You still have to include other forms of sustain into your build if you’re doing any kind of dueling, small scale groups fighting outnumbered, etc. Take it from someone that actually mains the class. You cannot sustain on HoF alone. I was just running around tonight with 3 other guys fighting heavily outnumbered against large Zergs in cyrodiil and if all I had to rely on for sustain was HoF I would’ve ran out of resources and died a lot more than I actually did tonight. All things considered we did well but that wasn’t due to broken skills it was due to positioning, coordination, communication and strategy. We outclassed our opponents. Why do you have such a bone to pick with HoF? I don’t get it. HoF doesn’t allow you to mindlessly spam skills. You still have to manage your resources properly and like I said anyone doing any real fighting for prolonged durations, no one shot balorgh gimmicks, is not being sustained by HoF alone. I run a damage set and a sustain set with a defensive monster and a neutral mythic. If I ran double damage sets, balorgh and a damage mythic I’d run out of gas so fast trying to keep all of my buffs up while dodging multiple ults, bombs and aoe pulls all while counter attacking in between. And everyone that actually PvP’s especially those that do not Zerg and instead go fight Zergs outnumbered can visualize what I’m saying because they experience these same events when they PvP. Your testing in PTS is not the same as real world application by those in the field.

Also, how is HoF any different than dark deal for sorcs, Betty for wardens or any other sustain focused skill in the game? The damage alone for HoF is laughable and the only way you’re doing any meaningful damage with it is by combining it with other skills and timing your burst combo properly. So it’s mainly used for the sustain. I don’t rely on the healing portion when I’m taking any meaningful damage especially against a good opponent because I have actual healing abilities that take care of that much better and using HoF as an actual heal to save your life will get you killed. The healing buff was nice but doesn’t change the tides in fights and neither does any component of the skill for that matter. HoF is supplemental and is working as intended. You gotta step outside the pts lab and actually go test these things in the field before you come on the forums posting your word as gospel. It’s misleading.

Literally just do a tally for all effects between HoF and the other sustain skills you mentioned.
Damage done, resources restored, healing done, resource cost, cast time, and associated buffs. Post the stats you use for the calculation.

If you can not see it then, you are either built extremely poorly or you are not playing the same game. This has nothing to do with PTS. If it means anything to you, I haven't moved that ability off my bar since U49 on any of my DK or subclassed builds.

AFAIK , the wardens betty sustain skill is free and that skill is so good that most subclass builds have been running it. And that’s just one example. As I stated initially, the damage from HoF on its own is laughable. If you ever want to prove to me that you can kill me with HoF alone I’m always down for the 1v1. Then you can see how poorly built my dk is.

Also, HoF has a cost. There are many skills in this game that do a lot and have zero cost. This is a little off topic since it’s not a sustain skill but it does do damage so, ele sus. In today’s status effect effect meta this skill within its 30 second duration will do very good chip damage, like 15-20% of your health on a 40k health target with 35-40k resistances. Now that is over tuned. But I still don’t cry about it because it’s definitely on the lower end of the list for broken stuff in eso. WW’s are much worse. My 4 man group fought an 80k health WW last night and he was almost unkillable. He howled through damage from 4 well built players. Now that’s broken. Get off your soap box and open your eyes. There’s bigger fish to fry than dk’s having a little sustain skill. And in today’s meta we absolutely need every tool we currently have. Or maybe we are just not playing the same game since you seem to frequent these forums mostly.

Lmk about that 1v1

Chase0351 wrote: »

@Vaqual @hoangdz

Tell us your main class please. And what level you PvP. Duel, solo open world, bg, small scale, zergling? Context is very important here.

Goregram1 wrote: »

That's if the game lasts that long lay offs are coming less players then destiny an E6 on the way. a mmorpg needs players an needs those players to spend money if everyone gets frustrated an leaves that's no more game for anyone

hoangdz wrote: »

This is just a general rant.

Seeing the meta plays out like this isn't surprising at all. Historically, I and many PTS testers have accurately predicted several problematic changes that would result in toxic metas (Vateshraan proc, Hardened Ward change on Sorc, reworked DK, and now reworked WW just to name a few). It always happened exactly as anticipated. When the Hardened Ward buff made Sorc too strong on the PTS, my nerf-Ward threads were met with backlash, yet 3 months later people flooded the forums complaining this exact skill. When 2.0 DK rolled out on PTS, I again attempted to address the infinite sustain of Heart of Flame. People overwhelmingly disagreed with me, only to express distaste for the same issue 1 month later on the live server. Now comes WW, and we will see this pattern repeat.

PTS is there for a reason, and people like me are there to test these changes and provide feedback. Sure, anyone can say that a class is strong because it's just been reworked, but to pin-point exactly what the problem is requires theory-crafting knowledge and PvP experience. 2.0 DK does an insane amount of burst damage and is also extremely tanky, but their combo is predictable and their defense can be exploited. What actually enables them to reach an unprecedented power level is the god-tier sustain from Inhale. When a skill frees up an entire theory-crafting pillar, it allows you to allocate so much resources into other stats and really push it over the edge. HoF alone enables people to use Armor Pots instead of Tripots, drop Orzoga for Sugar Skulls, and drop Sustained By Suffering for a tanky CP like Juggernaut/Fortified/Boundless Vitality. They gain an insane amount of stats that a normal ability would never be able to replicate, and this can easily be proven by comparing stat difference between HoF and say, Netch or Rune Focus. A simple reduction to this ability's sustain would have largely resolved this issue. Likewise, WW is absurdly busted because of its unparalleled 1v1 pressure and infinite sustain, yet when its HP stays at a normal level (30-35k), you can actually one-shot it even if it takes a lot of effort. The correct adjustment would be to first tone down its HP-scaling heals.

But, some people aren't willing to accept this fact. They will openly and willingly go through mental hoops to convince themselves and others that these classes and skills are inherently balanced because they're "needed to counter other things". No, that is not how you balance games. Using the presence of an overperforming class/skill to justify keeping another overperforming one creates a vicious cycle of balance nightmare that's only going to drive away more players.

Perhaps what's most insulting is that some of these players have the audacity to tell other people that they "just have to be patient and wait their turn" and shut down any attempts to balance a revamped class. Sure, that's very easy to say if your main class is the first one to receive the rework. You're not spending 2 years waiting for a spot at the table. To say that to other fellow gamers, who have probably spent real-life money in this product, that they should just wait 1-2 years for their turn while being severely disadvantaged in PvP is spitting directly in their face. It's disingenuous, tone-deaf, and unacceptable. Surely enough, those players would be the first one to complain if their class wasn't reworked first but 1-2 years later instead.

Miracle19 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This is just a general rant.

Seeing the meta plays out like this isn't surprising at all. Historically, I and many PTS testers have accurately predicted several problematic changes that would result in toxic metas (Vateshraan proc, Hardened Ward change on Sorc, reworked DK, and now reworked WW just to name a few). It always happened exactly as anticipated. When the Hardened Ward buff made Sorc too strong on the PTS, my nerf-Ward threads were met with backlash, yet 3 months later people flooded the forums complaining this exact skill. When 2.0 DK rolled out on PTS, I again attempted to address the infinite sustain of Heart of Flame. People overwhelmingly disagreed with me, only to express distaste for the same issue 1 month later on the live server. Now comes WW, and we will see this pattern repeat.

PTS is there for a reason, and people like me are there to test these changes and provide feedback. Sure, anyone can say that a class is strong because it's just been reworked, but to pin-point exactly what the problem is requires theory-crafting knowledge and PvP experience. 2.0 DK does an insane amount of burst damage and is also extremely tanky, but their combo is predictable and their defense can be exploited. What actually enables them to reach an unprecedented power level is the god-tier sustain from Inhale. When a skill frees up an entire theory-crafting pillar, it allows you to allocate so much resources into other stats and really push it over the edge. HoF alone enables people to use Armor Pots instead of Tripots, drop Orzoga for Sugar Skulls, and drop Sustained By Suffering for a tanky CP like Juggernaut/Fortified/Boundless Vitality. They gain an insane amount of stats that a normal ability would never be able to replicate, and this can easily be proven by comparing stat difference between HoF and say, Netch or Rune Focus. A simple reduction to this ability's sustain would have largely resolved this issue. Likewise, WW is absurdly busted because of its unparalleled 1v1 pressure and infinite sustain, yet when its HP stays at a normal level (30-35k), you can actually one-shot it even if it takes a lot of effort. The correct adjustment would be to first tone down its HP-scaling heals.

But, some people aren't willing to accept this fact. They will openly and willingly go through mental hoops to convince themselves and others that these classes and skills are inherently balanced because they're "needed to counter other things". No, that is not how you balance games. Using the presence of an overperforming class/skill to justify keeping another overperforming one creates a vicious cycle of balance nightmare that's only going to drive away more players.

Perhaps what's most insulting is that some of these players have the audacity to tell other people that they "just have to be patient and wait their turn" and shut down any attempts to balance a revamped class. Sure, that's very easy to say if your main class is the first one to receive the rework. You're not spending 2 years waiting for a spot at the table. To say that to other fellow gamers, who have probably spent real-life money in this product, that they should just wait 1-2 years for their turn while being severely disadvantaged in PvP is spitting directly in their face. It's disingenuous, tone-deaf, and unacceptable. Surely enough, those players would be the first one to complain if their class wasn't reworked first but 1-2 years later instead.

Definitely understand where you are coming from and can see from your lens.

Personally I'd say this is one of the better patches in awhile. Everything is strong in its own way. WW overall is a little overturned, I think that is mainly due to CLASS MASTERIES. WW form simply should just not have access to class masteries and that fixes the issue. The issue simply is, they have the highest single target dmg/pressure while having infinite sustain and being immortal. But that is only possible with class masteries.

Arc/Necro/Templar seem to be below average overall and could use some skill damage buffs. You mentioned backlash earlier, a skill that carried templar for a long time, now mostly useless. Arc's sustain and survivability pale in comparison to every class. Necro, super tanky now, good damage and sustain, but heavily reliant on procs.

Overall, everything is viable(NoCP) and has its own strengths and weaknesses. Outside of WW abusing class masteries, there isn't anything that's just clearly 10 light years stronger than another in my opinion.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Here is some feedback for ZOS that I hope they can use going forward with future class reworks.

Like Hoang, I agree that giving every reworked class effectively infinite sustain is not a good direction for the game. Doing so removes an active element of gameplay that, in my opinion, made ESO more engaging and rewarded skilled play (think pre-hybridization).

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Here is some feedback for ZOS that I hope they can use going forward with future class reworks.

Like Hoang, I agree that giving every reworked class effectively infinite sustain is not a good direction for the game. Doing so removes an active element of gameplay that, in my opinion, made ESO more engaging and rewarded skilled play (think pre-hybridization).

Necromancer

With the new Class Mastery, Pound of Flesh, Necromancer is actually fairly tanky—at least under the right conditions. If you can consistently maintain Spirit Guardian, Vigor, your armor buff, and coil, the class feels tanky. However, the difference in survivability with and without Coil is significant.

Coil is an extremely finicky skill to use, especially in OW PvP. The skill tends to light up on your bar as if it’s available, but you still can’t cast it because your character is facing slightly the wrong direction. It’s frustrating and unnecessarily clunky. I’d much rather see it changed into an AoE that doesn’t require you to face a specific direction of a corpse.

On the offensive side, I agree with what many others have said: the class simply lacks damage. You can wear three offensive sets and still feel like you’re hitting like a wet noodle. Blastbones should hit significantly harder.

Another reason Necromancer struggles offensively is that it’s an incredibly buff-heavy class. If you don’t keep all of your defensive buffs active, you become noticeably squishier. But if you want to do damage you’ll find the window is very short because it feels like many of the class’s buff durations are too short. You’re constantly refreshing buffs instead of applying pressure.

For the redesign, I’d like to see Necromancer remain true to its thematic identity while making its abilities significantly less clunky to use and its damage feel much more impactful.

Note: I have barely played during the last three or so patches because I haven’t enjoyed the current state of the game, so my testing has been limited. These conclusions are based primarily on playing a burst oriented build. It’s entirely possible that proc/DoT Necromancer performs much better, but personally I find proc and DoT heavy playstyles incredibly boring.

Luneca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Well ZOS just got half its team laid off, so you can kiss goodbye to future class reworks. Either they will be super delayed or they may not be reworked at all. Time to spam nerf DK and WW threads.

Our turn is never coming, as expected tbh.

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Well ZOS just got half its team laid off, so you can kiss goodbye to future class reworks. Either they will be super delayed or they may not be reworked at all. Time to spam nerf DK and WW threads.

Our turn is never coming, as expected tbh.

Well if Necro is to remain unplayable, then I guess I should have left the game two years ago when stalking blastbone got removed.

hoangdz wrote: »

Well ZOS just got half its team laid off, so you can kiss goodbye to future class reworks. Either they will be super delayed or they may not be reworked at all. Time to spam nerf DK and WW threads.

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Well ZOS just got half its team laid off, so you can kiss goodbye to future class reworks. Either they will be super delayed or they may not be reworked at all. Time to spam nerf DK and WW threads.

Our turn is never coming, as expected tbh.

Well if Necro is to remain unplayable, then I guess I should have left the game two years ago when stalking blastbone got removed.