Solantris wrote: »

I wrote this for another thread elsewhere but im dumping here cause relevant. Its based on being a game designer myself (not an mmo combat designer, but still)

I'll be frank, the BG MMR algorithm itself isnt the real problem with balancing teams. Its a symptom, not the cause. The real issue is that ESO lacks the systems and constraints that usually underpin how an mmr algorithm works.

To put it succinctly, our current BG ecosystem doesnt define a consistent definition of success. As a result, any single MMR algorithm will struggle to produce a reliable estimate of player skill, because a win means different things from game to game

Deathmatch primarily rewards combat dominance. Domination primarily rewards space control and speed. Crazy King primarily rewards rotations and timing. CTR and ball boy primarily reward movement, escorting and survival. In most of them, any kind of prolonged fight is directly detrimental to the objective, and each of them asks players to optimise for something completely different.

Somebody with a high win rate at domination probably does perform equally well in crazy king, but neither of those wins means mean anything in a deathmatch. Because in ESO, our objective modes do not fundamentally require combat for effectiveness. Mechanically, we can often bypass combat and still be really effective.

In games like MOBAs, macro decisions (map rotations, objectives, vision) are constrained by combat competency (micro decisions). If you lose every fight, you will generally lose map control. Avoiding fights will put you at an objective disadvantage, but so will fighting uneccesarily: they're designed in harmony, interdependent. But In ESO, our objective mechanics are much less dependent on combat performance, and the most efficient thing is often slapping on some running shoes and avoiding combat completely. Objective sucess does not follow or honestly even require combat sucess.

This means, from an algorithmic perspective, two players can have identical win rates while possessing incredibly different actual combat ability. The wins just aren't comparable.

This is especially the case with deathmatch. It meassures something substantially different from the other modes completely. But has the same impact on a winrate (im all for splitting off deathmatch completely, fwiw)

In most games win rate is often one of the most reliable indicators, because a win is comparable to other wins. But in ESO, it's just... not.

Regardless of implementation, an MMR algorithm fundamentally asks 'on average, which players consistently outperform others?' The problem we have is that our wins don't represent consistent or comparable performances. Sometimes it reflects combat dominance, sometimes objective play, sometimes rotation or escorting, sometimes building like a brick and holding block on an objective. It's... random

When the definition of success changes from match to match, a single rating just cant converge on a single measure of skill. And thats why the mmr system feels so chaotic and unbalanced. Mathematically, I imagine it actually is creating a balanced match on paper behind the scenes: it's just that the data it bases that decision on doesnt actually mean anything specific in our context.

Tldr: MMR systems estimate skill from outcomes. Outcomes need systemic consistency to be meaninful. Our bg wins represent different things, and thus, we have no consistency. So, regardless of the actual formula used, this means our mmr systems struggle to mathematically represent meaningful player brackets

To make it an anlogy, some players are throwing shot put. Some players are jumping hurdles. Some players are playing football, some are in a sprint, some a marathon. All of them are in the same matches. Probably on average the shot put guy wins the shotput games ... but he's assessed on his overall win rate.

imPDA wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

BGs definitely do have active MMR. All you have to do is watch the notice in the upper right hand corner of the screen when / if someone on your team drops; it alerts you that you’ve lost a team member and that any MMR loss will be reduced.

It is just a leftover, there are tons of these across the game, not all text accurately represents what is going on, even new rule with 100 TV in IC has incorrect description atm. I probably saw a confirmation what it is not what it mentions - it was added with PTS with MMR and when MMR disabled - it just stayed, but I have no links, so you either have to believe or search on the forum

UI also has leftovers like these



it is meant to show MMR on BG selection screen (when you choose 4x4 or 8x mode), but it is hidden. I can even log in and show how it should look like, I am in addon development for 2 years and I learned everything related and vanilla UI pretty much to the point I know almost every part by heart.

As I said, it can have some balancing mechanism under the hood, but most likely it is far from MMR we (or I) are expecting to see, otherwise why would they hide it? Even API has everything set and ready to show it.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Lot of misconceptions here that some people just state without nay real knowledge. All MMR RESETS are soft resets, not hard resets. You will very likely still match up with the exact same people at higher MMR that you always did, even if you the MMR gets reset, the other players that were high MMR play matches, and you do nothing for a month, when you decide to que, your chances of matching with them should be very high.

The main issue with MMR is not only that it should exist, per player, and per team, based MAINLY on win/loss, with some small percentage of it being performance, ideally, but solely win/loss is fine as well, but the main part that would make it not only more enjoyable for people who actually enjoy the system, but more clear. MAKE A REAL LADDER BASED ON MMR, MAKE IT PUBLIC FOR TOP PLAYERS. You can exclude all the lower rated players who would have their feelings hurt, but please, for the love of all that is holy, stop making every single PvP leaderboard tied to AMOUNT OF TIME PLAYED and not a real MMR system. All the real PvP players have wanted this for a long time, and if you only display the highest rated players, the lower rated ones will not suffer. Implement this, and properly. Thanks.