Templar's damage in pvp is unacceptable

Firstmep · July 4

Ive been playing since launch and Templar has been my main for most it, and I don't think the class ever had this little damage in pvp as now.
Compared werewolf and dk it's insane just how little damagenit does, but frankly it sits behind pretty much every class at this point.

Doing full 6 seconds of damage on a squishy sorc with onslaught active for full pen just for backlash to crit for 3k is just not acceptable.
On my necro with 50k hp I'm throwing out 10k blastbones, venom skulls and corpseburster procs, and necro isn't even a top pvp class atm.
Molten whip takes 3 globals to charge up and does 8-10k non crit.

Both class sets are an absolute joke, if any devs reads this please just take 2 seconds to look at wrathsun vs pyrebtand or aeries cry.
Wrathsun takes 40 seconds to build and removes half your magicka to gain 10% class damage? Really? Aries gives 10% all damage done and a powerful dot.

Aetheric lancer, if it ever dies hit in pvp(it doesnt), deals like 3-4k damage. That's nothing these days.
I remember a dev comment on class sets and not every set needing to be good in all content, but I know for a fact that lancer isn't even good in pve, aside from completely stationary dummy parsing.

Jabs is an absolute joke of a spammable, freaking VENOM SKULL has better burst potential.

I'm sorry for the rant but I don not understand how even after so.much feedback on the u50 pts about just how insanely weak plar masteries are, you guys still released them like that.

Major_Mangle · July 4

Meanwhile ZOS announces that templar is getting a unique group armor buff.......as if templar need any more survivability in any context in the game (goes for PvE as well). They're so out of touch with templar the last few updates. Making beam dodgeable was the last straw that made me bench my main class. ZOS apparently want templar to be a damage sponge support class (which isn't even a good support class and gets outperformed by both sorc and arcanist) with zero damage.

reazea · July 4

I know people who have left the game because they were templar mains and didn't want to change and ZOS gutted the class so hard.

Firstmep · July 4

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Meanwhile ZOS announces that templar is getting a unique group armor buff.......as if templar need any more survivability in any context in the game (goes for PvE as well). They're so out of touch with templar the last few updates. Making beam dodgeable was the last straw that made me bench my main class. ZOS apparently want templar to be a damage sponge support class (which isn't even a good support class and gets outperformed by both sorc and arcanist) with zero damage.

It's not even particularly tanky. In this meta you need mobility and sustain. You can have 20 different hots running and 1-2 high damage players will still easily outpace you in seconds.

For the removal of minor sorcery, I mean it's par for the course that dks get to keep their wpd buff and Templar will get some tiny armor.

Dodgeable beam I mean yeah, heavens forbid we can do damage to someone at least in execute range.

High aoe burst and infinite sustain in one skill is okay, but not a functioning execute for plar!

Bluestin · July 4

reazea wrote: »

I know people who have left the game because they were templar mains and didn't want to change and ZOS gutted the class so hard.

This is/was me; I'm watching from the side-lines hoping something positive happens for Templar in PvP. For some reason they keep adding "survivability" (it's not particularly superior nor hurting in that regard) to the class, but as shown with the Class Masteries seem averse to giving Templar any damage output.

Templar's damage skills have been repeatedly gutted over multiple balance patches and now the class at best can stall a fight for a protracted period of time. Puncturing Sweeps in either morph just does nothing anymore; Biting Jabs is paltry damage and the magicka variant does no damage coupled with no healing.

Unfortunate that the class reworks are also happening one at a time over a year or so instead of as one consolidated big refresh.

nightbringer1993 · July 4

And people wonder why I say that classes that are being refreshed next year should have been refreshed this year.

ZOS is refreshing strongest class first to make them even stronger while in the mean time weakest classes are being made weaker as a result, and those class masteries didn't help a thing.

ESO is unplayable for necros these days, and I do believe templars might feel the same, looking at all these nerfs over the years.

Ocelot9x · July 4

Yeah they totally messed up reworks batches, weakest classes last lol

Firstmep · July 4

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

And people wonder why I say that classes that are being refreshed next year should have been refreshed this year.

ZOS is refreshing strongest class first to make them even stronger while in the mean time weakest classes are being made weaker as a result, and those class masteries didn't help a thing.

ESO is unplayable for necros these days, and I do believe templars might feel the same, looking at all these nerfs over the years.

As far reworks it's good that there are more usable skills, and reworked functionality for some skills.
What i don't get is the numbers behind it. Why does both morph of whip has to hit harder than most ultimates? Why does heart of flame has close to aoe ult level damage on top of providing massive healing and infinite sustain?

And on my ww rip and tear regularly heals me for over 10k a pop. Like can I get that on jabs please?

Luneca · July 4

Didn't even need to read, just agree. Just wait until ZOS nerfs templars even more by pushing an armor buff no one asked for, that has no real use besides making a ball group stronger. Despite the noise from supposed PvE templar tanks claiming the change is great (even though damage and buffing the damage is already argued about being a tanks role all the time in this game's discussion spaces, go figure).

The balance in PvP is an absolute joke when 3 classes aren't seen at all for a majority of PvP. I mean, you can not see an arcanist for days.

I honestly haven't seen any offensive templars on PC NA. And if they are, they aren't slotting the templar skills...ha!

Firstmep · July 5

Luneca wrote: »

Didn't even need to read, just agree. Just wait until ZOS nerfs templars even more by pushing an armor buff no one asked for, that has no real use besides making a ball group stronger. Despite the noise from supposed PvE templar tanks claiming the change is great (even though damage and buffing the damage is already argued about being a tanks role all the time in this game's discussion spaces, go figure).

The balance in PvP is an absolute joke when 3 classes aren't seen at all for a majority of PvP. I mean, you can not see an arcanist for days.

I honestly haven't seen any offensive templars on PC NA. And if they are, they aren't slotting the templar skills...ha!

Watch them nerf bastion of light beacuse of the remembrance spamming plays out there.
I know for a fact quite a few do it out out of sheer spite for the state of plar offense.

Luneca · July 5

Firstmep wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Didn't even need to read, just agree. Just wait until ZOS nerfs templars even more by pushing an armor buff no one asked for, that has no real use besides making a ball group stronger. Despite the noise from supposed PvE templar tanks claiming the change is great (even though damage and buffing the damage is already argued about being a tanks role all the time in this game's discussion spaces, go figure).

The balance in PvP is an absolute joke when 3 classes aren't seen at all for a majority of PvP. I mean, you can not see an arcanist for days.

I honestly haven't seen any offensive templars on PC NA. And if they are, they aren't slotting the templar skills...ha!

Watch them nerf bastion of light beacuse of the remembrance spamming plays out there.
I know for a fact quite a few do it out out of sheer spite for the state of plar offense.

If it's templar, it needs a nerf. The silly part about the people complaining is that rememberence isn't even a good ult. It heals and gives defense to some extent, but it's still nowhere near as good as subclassing and using Warden tree (which allows you to take other actions) + stack more HoTs + use budding seeds. Though maybe it can be argued it takes more "skill" to do that, though it doesn't for me.

If the idea is that a defensive ult is a problem because it gives defense, or a healing ult is a problem because it heals, then we have a bigger issue.

if a mastery is a problem because it lets you do one thing more often, then they need to look at the classes that benefitted from them the most in the first place. Those classes aren't templar ...

CameraBeardThePirate · July 6

Firstmep wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Didn't even need to read, just agree. Just wait until ZOS nerfs templars even more by pushing an armor buff no one asked for, that has no real use besides making a ball group stronger. Despite the noise from supposed PvE templar tanks claiming the change is great (even though damage and buffing the damage is already argued about being a tanks role all the time in this game's discussion spaces, go figure).

The balance in PvP is an absolute joke when 3 classes aren't seen at all for a majority of PvP. I mean, you can not see an arcanist for days.

I honestly haven't seen any offensive templars on PC NA. And if they are, they aren't slotting the templar skills...ha!

Watch them nerf bastion of light beacuse of the remembrance spamming plays out there.
I know for a fact quite a few do it out out of sheer spite for the state of plar offense.

What's funny is the remembrance spamming isn't even a good build. It puts out a lot of healing but cant survive through being focused down. Anyone that knows what they're doing will just burst down the templar during the ult.

Firstmep · July 6

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Didn't even need to read, just agree. Just wait until ZOS nerfs templars even more by pushing an armor buff no one asked for, that has no real use besides making a ball group stronger. Despite the noise from supposed PvE templar tanks claiming the change is great (even though damage and buffing the damage is already argued about being a tanks role all the time in this game's discussion spaces, go figure).

The balance in PvP is an absolute joke when 3 classes aren't seen at all for a majority of PvP. I mean, you can not see an arcanist for days.

I honestly haven't seen any offensive templars on PC NA. And if they are, they aren't slotting the templar skills...ha!

Watch them nerf bastion of light beacuse of the remembrance spamming plays out there.
I know for a fact quite a few do it out out of sheer spite for the state of plar offense.

What's funny is the remembrance spamming isn't even a good build. It puts out a lot of healing but cant survive through being focused down. Anyone that knows what they're doing will just burst down the templar during the ult.

Ikr. Sorc shielder is way more output and you can use other skills in between.

ceruulean · July 6

Luneca wrote: »

I honestly haven't seen any offensive templars on PC NA. And if they are, they aren't slotting the templar skills...ha!

Moved to Venegance because plars have a fighting chance there. Although even there they are kinda weak and only "do well in groups," although every class does well in a group. Still, javelin-meteor combo and execute are giga nerfed in Vengeance. When you cast meteor, there seems to be a specially coded delay and you can't cast javelin or cc until an extra second later.

Firstmep · July 6

Dont want to spam too much here just one last thing. After doing some more testing i am now confident that subclassing into ardent/strom calling is far better than any combination of our masteries.
With ardent you get insane damage and sustain so the extra 600 spell damage from bright harbinger isn't even missed.

ceruulean · July 6

Firstmep wrote: »

Dont want to spam too much here just one last thing. After doing some more testing i am now confident that subclassing into ardent/strom calling is far better than any combination of our masteries.
With ardent you get insane damage and sustain so the extra 600 spell damage from bright harbinger isn't even missed.

I agree. I don't actually play a plar anymore. I have Aedric, ardent, and animal companion/gravelord depending on my goals. The only plar skill I have slotted is toppling charge, javelin, or crescent sweep for the 10% crit dmg passive. It's the only good offensive line for plar because of the passives, but the actual spammable, jabs is too weak.

Highwayman · July 6

I get it ZOS, you think templar should be tanky. If that's what you want, it needs regen, not more armor. Definitely no more half armor/half damage that does neither well enough to use.

A unique group regen buff would help them as healers too.

In pvp, to be tanky on templar even with all the heals and armor buffs, you still need to give up 2 sets. One for regen and one for defense. If you want their identity to be tanky, give me enough regen I can spec into 2 or 3 offensive sets.

They need more bar space too. Any other class making this claim in comparison is a joke. To be functional in pvp you have spec at least half healer, you give up any chance of real pressure or burst just to stay alive a minute longer.

Jabbs_Giggity · July 9

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Meanwhile ZOS announces that templar is getting a unique group armor buff.......as if templar need any more survivability in any context in the game (goes for PvE as well). They're so out of touch with templar the last few updates. Making beam dodgeable was the last straw that made me bench my main class. ZOS apparently want templar to be a damage sponge support class (which isn't even a good support class and gets outperformed by both sorc and arcanist) with zero damage.

Their minor sorcery buff will be removed in u51, leading to less damage on templar. Been a trash class since u35 and I dont see it getting better...

dark_hunterxmg · July 11

Interesting that you said Werewolf and Dragon Knight damage when Dragon Knight and Sorcerer are both hitting harder than a Werewolf. Templar unfortunately seems to be a healer only class at the moment. They are quite hard to kill when standing within the circles of safety.

BXR_Lonestar · July 14

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Meanwhile ZOS announces that templar is getting a unique group armor buff.......as if templar need any more survivability in any context in the game (goes for PvE as well). They're so out of touch with templar the last few updates. Making beam dodgeable was the last straw that made me bench my main class. ZOS apparently want templar to be a damage sponge support class (which isn't even a good support class and gets outperformed by both sorc and arcanist) with zero damage.

When built right, templars are crazy strong small group support healers. I made an experimental build built to grant group defensive buffs and ended up in a last emp keep defense one night and ended up healing on the back flag tucked in the corner, pumping out heals like nothing else, keeping a couple of my group members alive and a few stalwart blues holding onto the back flag and we held out for maybe 30-45 minutes with holes open in the keep everywhere, and once they were finally able to get an angle to hit me with seige, I went down, and we lost the keep shortly thereafter. But the defensive prowess of the build and survivability I granted to my group members was absolutely insane.

I don't know if the templar rework will fix the plar's damage abilities or if it is simply going to be a class that is better for tanking/healing than it is for damage. That could just be the vision for the class.

I know I've been struggling to find a satisfactory build for my Plar brawler, and the only thing I can find that is adequate is a torc brawler build. Plar just seems to lack the "wombo combo" 2-3 hit kill combo that sorcs, DK's, NB's and other classes have. Their fighting philosophy seems to be build around the idea that you keep constant pressure on them and they eventually fold, but the class damage abilities just are not really well set up for that.

The OG plar combo of javelin to get them on their back, toppling charge to close the gap, jabs, and then finish with sweeps before they can get up just doesn't work anymore because jabs are hitting for half what they used to, and the plar just doesn't have the tools to fill that gap with something else.

BXR_Lonestar · July 14

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Interesting that you said Werewolf and Dragon Knight damage when Dragon Knight and Sorcerer are both hitting harder than a Werewolf. Templar unfortunately seems to be a healer only class at the moment. They are quite hard to kill when standing within the circles of safety.

The problem right now is Werewolves have an innate weakness - hit them with enough fighters guild abilities and they'll go down because they're weak to them (20% extra damage).

DK's are a different matter. They're super tanky on their back bar, which is fine, most builds are. The problem is that when they pivot to go offensive, corrosive renders them nearly invulnerable in their offensive window. They get insane burst, survivability, and very little risk by going offensive, and your only defense is to flee from them. There's not a great visual tell for corrosive so that you can identify it amidst the chaos, and there's no way to know when a corrosive is coming because you don't see when the player has ulti up.

Those are IMO the biggest problems with the DK right now, and it could be very easily remedied by just removing the damage reduction while corrosive is active. Leave that bonus for the defensive morph.

Luneca · July 15

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Interesting that you said Werewolf and Dragon Knight damage when Dragon Knight and Sorcerer are both hitting harder than a Werewolf. Templar unfortunately seems to be a healer only class at the moment. They are quite hard to kill when standing within the circles of safety.

The problem right now is Werewolves have an innate weakness - hit them with enough fighters guild abilities and they'll go down because they're weak to them (20% extra damage).

DK's are a different matter. They're super tanky on their back bar, which is fine, most builds are. The problem is that when they pivot to go offensive, corrosive renders them nearly invulnerable in their offensive window. They get insane burst, survivability, and very little risk by going offensive, and your only defense is to flee from them. There's not a great visual tell for corrosive so that you can identify it amidst the chaos, and there's no way to know when a corrosive is coming because you don't see when the player has ulti up.

Those are IMO the biggest problems with the DK right now, and it could be very easily remedied by just removing the damage reduction while corrosive is active. Leave that bonus for the defensive morph.

Yep the damage reductio on Corrosive needed to be removed around 2021 and it's long overdue. I have no idea why ZOS hasn't done it yet. But hey, if they do, a lot of "skilled" DKs will come here and get angry on the forums and claim the chage is bad for the game, even though ZOS has nerfed other skills for far less "attack and defense" capability.

ADarklore · July 15

As a Templar main... with the ESO team being gutted, this doesn't bode well for the class refreshes going forward. I wonder how they plan to deal with this going forward? While I had once again stepped away from ESO, I always returned after a brief time, but after this reason loss... and no announcement yet about the future... it makes me want to uninstall ESO and just treat it like New World during its final year.

BXR_Lonestar · July 15

Luneca wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Interesting that you said Werewolf and Dragon Knight damage when Dragon Knight and Sorcerer are both hitting harder than a Werewolf. Templar unfortunately seems to be a healer only class at the moment. They are quite hard to kill when standing within the circles of safety.

The problem right now is Werewolves have an innate weakness - hit them with enough fighters guild abilities and they'll go down because they're weak to them (20% extra damage).

DK's are a different matter. They're super tanky on their back bar, which is fine, most builds are. The problem is that when they pivot to go offensive, corrosive renders them nearly invulnerable in their offensive window. They get insane burst, survivability, and very little risk by going offensive, and your only defense is to flee from them. There's not a great visual tell for corrosive so that you can identify it amidst the chaos, and there's no way to know when a corrosive is coming because you don't see when the player has ulti up.

Those are IMO the biggest problems with the DK right now, and it could be very easily remedied by just removing the damage reduction while corrosive is active. Leave that bonus for the defensive morph.

Yep the damage reductio on Corrosive needed to be removed around 2021 and it's long overdue. I have no idea why ZOS hasn't done it yet. But hey, if they do, a lot of "skilled" DKs will come here and get angry on the forums and claim the chage is bad for the game, even though ZOS has nerfed other skills for far less "attack and defense" capability.

Its a classic example of them not understanding their own game and how players play or set up their character in order to be successful. If they actually played their game and understood it, they would see why it is so problematic. And it is such an easy fix because there should be an offensive option and a defensive option here - Magma Shell can keep the damage reduction (Actually, go ahead and enhance it if you want to because magma shell isn't that great of an ult), and remove the damage reduction from Corrosive. That way, DK's are vulnerable when they go offensive.

They'll still have an advantage due to armor stripping and constant pressure from the DOT damage. It just won't make it so that the DK is virtually invulnerable in a fight.

Either that, or tone down the DK's offensive tools (flame lash and power lash are overperforming right now) so that fights are more fair and it doesn't feel like a fight has already been decided because they chose to be a DK.