Arcanist has decent damage as a status effect build because the main class skills are clunky. With signet nerfed you can't do a status effect build that competes with DK and werewolf, and pure sorc has stupid good sustain and damage too. Arc usually relies on proc sets and dot like the masters dual wield.


Whirling Blades has not been a good skill for a while. Whenever I see someone use that skill I assume they're an easy kill, lol.

arcanist has consistently been the worst class in PvP since its release.
and dk is first rework class,the build power must close meta subclass build
and pvp/pve is a different game
like necro got 20% wd and 25% dmg buff ,in pve is tier 0 now,but in pvp still is a bad class
arcanist was pve op class, so class got lowest buff from class mastery,should very weak in pvp

I think the rework may solve the GH issue concerning the Arcanist. Its not an issue in Vengeance. There is too much damage in GH and it happens way too fast. And the Arcanist is reliant on Crux which is too slow for that much damage.

I think people are tired of the Arcanist as its been the PvE dps leader for the last 4 years. I personally dont like them due to our being forced into that with the destruction of HA builds in U35. And the second disaster at U46. Everyone should have access to ranged cleave, not just the Arcanist. Or, it needs to be taken off of the Arcanist for the sake of fairness, especially after the last year of every dps in every trial being a beamer for over a year with the Subclass train wreck. I hope I never see another Arcanist ever again due to U46. And I certainly do not ever want to play one again.

I dont like the idea of every Class getting a beam. And it seems like that is the path we are on. If people feel like there are too many buttons to press, they need to eliminate light attack weaving, not force us all into a beam.

The issues that exist in GH are larger than just 1 Class, 1 mythic or 1 specific easy solution. Every attempt at trying to solve any of them has resulted in more problems. Its not fair or true PvP. Its Build vs. Build and it has been for some time. 99% of them are from streamers too so its not "their build" in the first place. Its somebody else's. You're fighting sets, not people. And someone else's build.

Zos themselves even admitted GH cant be fixed. While some people may not like that reality, Vengeance is the only future especially with cross platform coming. I would rather see them just combine PS and Xbox too btw. Im saying this as an 11 year player. Also my entire PvP build I just made was ruined the other day too. I will not rebuild my Warden for GH again. It was already unfair enough that my main character was specifically targeted concerning the new mythic and now its just been completely swept under the rug again. Just like with Subclass.

There was a time that GH was fun. A very long time ago. We talk about it with the new players and they don't believe us as we describe how it used to be😂 Vengeance is the building block to return PvP to that once again. Slowly and in a calculated way. Most people will be happier for it. Some people will not. With what is happening now, it's time to focus on the majority of everyone in the game. What's better in the long run for the bigger overall picture and the absolute long run.

Kalthea wrote: »

Not voting because there is no neutral option, just two extremes for "agree with me or give me rage bait".

I'm also here to denounce the PvP players complaining on the forums yet again about the balance of a PvP mode that should be shelved once Vengeance comes out where they can actually balance the classes.

And if you complain about not being able to create your own builds for PvP after reading the above, then you dont actually want balance. You want YOUR balance. The amount of treadmill work that goes into balancing every set in the game for PvP is quite literally endless as they continue to update the game, on top of the class reworks going on at the same time.

My wording in the poll might be a bit too radical but I tbh don't really care about 'neutral' opinions here for they contain no information and make no difference thus they have no value for my cause.

I also don't care about you denouncing a great deal of players from the ESO community for whatever arrogant reason you've just described. Vengance is not at all any answer to Battleground issues and is also a lame force-fed abandonment of everything Cyrodiil was about in the past decade: customizing your character via hard earned gear, monster set, mythic, enchantments, traits, potions, champion points, attributes, ability morphs etc. It is a game in a game, but segregated from everything that makes the game this game, unlike ToT, which integrates nicely.

If you enter Vengance now not only the population is extremely low, but most of the NPCs are just dead hollow shells of what they were all about: their wares mean nothing, you receive a sometimes bugged amount of supply and you can join the Clone Wars with almost meaningless modifiers. The skill 'reworks' are interesting and I also have to confess that the combat gameplay itself is more fair. But that is not my character, that is a MOBA-level nonsense, that might be more balanced but only because it is so primitive and so stupid that even a five year old is capable of "balancing" it. That is not the ESO I wanna play, and if Clone Wars is the future of ESO PvP, then I'm out. Until then here I am providing feedback to a hopefully listening community of developers and players.

And sorry if I offend you, but I also really don't care about your outright demagogy and I refuse your accusation of me wanting MY balance. I adore complexity and strategy, depth and meaning, options and excitement and I also enjoy a fight I lose when I know that the rules were fair, my opponent was more competent or I've messed up something I can learn from. All these are totally abandoned in Vengance.

Nah, Vengance is not my stuff and neither the stuff of the PvP community it supposed to save. I also kindly remind you that the class rework you've mentioned is already late on schedule and will take by end of 2027 to complete. Arcanist is at the end of the line as you might have guessed from reading my story above, so that is no reason at all to "just chill" and accept what I've described in my post.

EDIT: ps. here I am writing a 4 paragraph answer describing 3 times how 'I don't care'. this is me not caring

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

It won't be as worst as what necro are having right now because we lost our main source of damage two years ago, stalking blastbone, and we got nerfed again and again, and the corpse limitation destroyed the class. But if arcanists were to loose their beam, or that beam was to be "transformed" into a trash skill the same way blastbone got removed in favor of this grave lord sacrifice trash, then I would say that arcanist would be some sort of destroyed.

Dude, coming from a day 1 Necro main, you gotta stop with the complaints about Necro.

I'll be the first to say it: Necro is actually good now. They have some of the highest parses in PvE and in PvP they've been given an actual identity with the class masteries and Corpseburster buffs.

Are they the best PvP class? No, of course not; but they can easily hold their own now with extremely high burst combos (Blastbones>Venom Skull>Graveyard to proc Corpseburster dealing anywhere from 20k to 40k total damage against a player) and extremely good survivability now between Nothing Wasted and Pound of Flesh.

Look, I get it, what ZOS did to Stalking Blastbones is inexcusable (I still rock a Stalking Blastbones guild tabbard for crying out loud, #NeverForget), but the class masteries have made Necro the strongest it's been since the good old Harmony Graverobber days.

Usureki wrote: »

My wording in the poll might be a bit too radical but I tbh don't really care about 'neutral' opinions here for they contain no information and make no difference thus they have no value for my cause.

I also don't care about you denouncing a great deal of players from the ESO community for whatever arrogant reason you've just described. Vengance is not at all any answer to Battleground issues and is also a lame force-fed abandonment of everything Cyrodiil was about in the past decade: customizing your character via hard earned gear, monster set, mythic, enchantments, traits, potions, champion points, attributes, ability morphs etc. It is a game in a game, but segregated from everything that makes the game this game, unlike ToT, which integrates nicely.

If you enter Vengance now not only the population is extremely low, but most of the NPCs are just dead hollow shells of what they were all about: their wares mean nothing, you receive a sometimes bugged amount of supply and you can join the Clone Wars with almost meaningless modifiers. The skill 'reworks' are interesting and I also have to confess that the combat gameplay itself is more fair. But that is not my character, that is a MOBA-level nonsense, that might be more balanced but only because it is so primitive and so stupid that even a five year old is capable of "balancing" it. That is not the ESO I wanna play, and if Clone Wars is the future of ESO PvP, then I'm out. Until then here I am providing feedback to a hopefully listening community of developers and players.

And sorry if I offend you, but I also really don't care about your outright demagogy and I refuse your accusation of me wanting MY balance. I adore complexity and strategy, depth and meaning, options and excitement and I also enjoy a fight I lose when I know that the rules were fair, my opponent was more competent or I've messed up something I can learn from. All these are totally abandoned in Vengance.

Nah, Vengance is not my stuff and neither the stuff of the PvP community it supposed to save. I also kindly remind you that the class rework you've mentioned is already late on schedule and will take by end of 2027 to complete. Arcanist is at the end of the line as you might have guessed from reading my story above, so that is no reason at all to "just chill" and accept what I've described in my post.

EDIT: ps. here I am writing a 4 paragraph answer describing 3 times how 'I don't care'. this is me not caring

Outright ignoring neutral opinions is how you get to these points in the first place. Zero compromise, only extreme alterations and changes that "make a difference".

You are free to ignore my denouncement, I don't view my opinions as the be-all-end-all of the game's development. However, you have to admit that there are far too many posts on the forums demanding alterations to entire game mechanics simply because they don't function how people want them to in specifically PvP scenarios.

You literally admitted Vengeance is more balanced, so I can't really say much more on that topic.

As for the your balance statement: This is true of anyone who posts on the forums, even myself. Everybody wants things to function THEIR way, it wasn't necessarily a statement meant only for you, though the word 'YOUR' certainly makes it seem that way. The point of the statement is that no matter what ZoS does, nobody will be happy until the changes allow them to be on top and have their fun, and ultimately the 'Treadmill of Balance' will never end. Pointing out bugs and unintended interactions is understandable, but every single day I see more and more posts demanding X set be brought up, Y spec be nerfed, DK get nerfed because it's the brand new thing in a large class change that is planned for everyone and we can't wait for the rest to get fixed and brought up to par, we need it nerfed NOW.

Arcanist will receive its changes in due time. You don't need to have their changes now, especially since Arcanist has been the most prominent class since it launched. You want buffs to it so that you can win against DKs, that's literally what this post is about. You went against a DK that had a super strong build against what you had, and if I hear you complain once about Meta builds I am just going to point you back to Vengeance for your balance because you obviously cannot handle any amount of difference in class power. Wait your turn, you've had years on top, and now that DK is on top due to its changes it has been nothing but complaints on the forums.

Yes, the updates have been delayed. That is the nature of live service unfortunately. But everyone will eventually be brought into the new balance however far into the future, and it will hopefully have everyone in a good spot. Wait for the Warden rework and see where they sit, I will happily eat my words if ZoS screws up the balance so bad that Warden ends up worse than before.

Firstmep wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Arcanist, templar, and necros are just food at this point. Sure you can use a niche build to get them to work, but you're literally fighting against a mountain. Fighting against the current. Fighting against a siege weapon in human form.

It's why you won't see many of those three classes. Amazingly, look at where those 3 are on the refesh schedule.

Necro has some funny builds you can do with nothing wasted. I'm pulling 1.5-2 mil dmg in bgs with 50k+ hp build. It's not quite dk or ww, but it definetly works to some extent.

I see they have gotten better, but I still think they can adjust the amount of buffing needed on the class vs. every other. It's still too easy to be pushed in scenario where your buffs are off and you're caught between buff, heal, or die. <-- That problem actually cuts the offensive window of the class down considerably if the opponent knows what they are doing.

Kalthea wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

My wording in the poll might be a bit too radical but I tbh don't really care about 'neutral' opinions here for they contain no information and make no difference thus they have no value for my cause.

I also don't care about you denouncing a great deal of players from the ESO community for whatever arrogant reason you've just described. Vengance is not at all any answer to Battleground issues and is also a lame force-fed abandonment of everything Cyrodiil was about in the past decade: customizing your character via hard earned gear, monster set, mythic, enchantments, traits, potions, champion points, attributes, ability morphs etc. It is a game in a game, but segregated from everything that makes the game this game, unlike ToT, which integrates nicely.

If you enter Vengance now not only the population is extremely low, but most of the NPCs are just dead hollow shells of what they were all about: their wares mean nothing, you receive a sometimes bugged amount of supply and you can join the Clone Wars with almost meaningless modifiers. The skill 'reworks' are interesting and I also have to confess that the combat gameplay itself is more fair. But that is not my character, that is a MOBA-level nonsense, that might be more balanced but only because it is so primitive and so stupid that even a five year old is capable of "balancing" it. That is not the ESO I wanna play, and if Clone Wars is the future of ESO PvP, then I'm out. Until then here I am providing feedback to a hopefully listening community of developers and players.

And sorry if I offend you, but I also really don't care about your outright demagogy and I refuse your accusation of me wanting MY balance. I adore complexity and strategy, depth and meaning, options and excitement and I also enjoy a fight I lose when I know that the rules were fair, my opponent was more competent or I've messed up something I can learn from. All these are totally abandoned in Vengance.

Nah, Vengance is not my stuff and neither the stuff of the PvP community it supposed to save. I also kindly remind you that the class rework you've mentioned is already late on schedule and will take by end of 2027 to complete. Arcanist is at the end of the line as you might have guessed from reading my story above, so that is no reason at all to "just chill" and accept what I've described in my post.

EDIT: ps. here I am writing a 4 paragraph answer describing 3 times how 'I don't care'. this is me not caring

Outright ignoring neutral opinions is how you get to these points in the first place. Zero compromise, only extreme alterations and changes that "make a difference".

You are free to ignore my denouncement, I don't view my opinions as the be-all-end-all of the game's development. However, you have to admit that there are far too many posts on the forums demanding alterations to entire game mechanics simply because they don't function how people want them to in specifically PvP scenarios.

You literally admitted Vengeance is more balanced, so I can't really say much more on that topic.

As for the your balance statement: This is true of anyone who posts on the forums, even myself. Everybody wants things to function THEIR way, it wasn't necessarily a statement meant only for you, though the word 'YOUR' certainly makes it seem that way. The point of the statement is that no matter what ZoS does, nobody will be happy until the changes allow them to be on top and have their fun, and ultimately the 'Treadmill of Balance' will never end. Pointing out bugs and unintended interactions is understandable, but every single day I see more and more posts demanding X set be brought up, Y spec be nerfed, DK get nerfed because it's the brand new thing in a large class change that is planned for everyone and we can't wait for the rest to get fixed and brought up to par, we need it nerfed NOW.

Arcanist will receive its changes in due time. You don't need to have their changes now, especially since Arcanist has been the most prominent class since it launched. You want buffs to it so that you can win against DKs, that's literally what this post is about. You went against a DK that had a super strong build against what you had, and if I hear you complain once about Meta builds I am just going to point you back to Vengeance for your balance because you obviously cannot handle any amount of difference in class power. Wait your turn, you've had years on top, and now that DK is on top due to its changes it has been nothing but complaints on the forums.

Yes, the updates have been delayed. That is the nature of live service unfortunately. But everyone will eventually be brought into the new balance however far into the future, and it will hopefully have everyone in a good spot. Wait for the Warden rework and see where they sit, I will happily eat my words if ZoS screws up the balance so bad that Warden ends up worse than before.

You speak like a radical centrist, yet you only react to parts of my arguments that fits into your view - we may agree to disagree. I don't know what else to tell you, I envy your content way of approaching things, I don't feel that its okay to wait until almost 2 years for ZOS to get their stuff together and I also feel Vengance is a lame solution, as it is 'balanced' as a primitive game like tic tac toe - there are not many things to mess up, but I've already described what I think.

I've also described step by step what happened with what build and I have yet to receive a single tip, guide or reference to the situation, so I kinda regret posting this here as I've learnt nothing so far. I don't yet see what I could have done better, and I feel that the DK bro was not 'super strong' build, it simply has a class with power oversights.

The current situation is like in poker we have added more combinations to one suit and not to the other three, then we talk about how 'it's okay, by the end of next year the stone suit will also get extra combos and then it will be really good, damn it, don't complain now, because it's worth waiting, in the meantime you can play your clearly disadvantaged suit calmly, don't let the fact that the most recently pimped suit is objectively stronger be an issue.'

There is not a single person from the cc hundred people I've talked to about PvP telling me that 'wow u can't make arca work? arca so powerful damn here's what u have to do'. On the contrary I see people say a lot 'wow u don't have a dk to play pvp since u50? how do u preserve ur sanity bro?'

Sad story.

DK can simply stand still and hold block, cast vigor and heart of flame. Maybe dragon blood. They can easily tank the damage on a decent build. Even my average oakensoul dk build which isn’t at 30k resist caps. More like 25 can tank 2-3 players. Although more like 1-2 good players and requires some dodge rolling. All I need to do is get my whip procced for power lashes and activate corrosive armour and most enimeies will all die together in aoe whips. 1-2 whips and they dead. I don’t find it very fun to play thoguh. Currently least favorite toon to play.

Addendum to my earlier suggestion for building Resists against a DK: I was reminded that Corrosive Armor on DK lets you bypass resits. In turn, the best way to build against that is Health/Shields, Health Recovery and a touch of Healing.

Kalthea wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

You speak like a radical centrist, yet you only react to parts of my arguments that fits into your view - we may agree to disagree. I don't know what else to tell you, I envy your content way of approaching things, I don't feel that its okay to wait until almost 2 years for ZOS to get their stuff together and I also feel Vengance is a lame solution, as it is 'balanced' as a primitive game like tic tac toe - there are not many things to mess up, but I've already described what I think.

I've also described step by step what happened with what build and I have yet to receive a single tip, guide or reference to the situation, so I kinda regret posting this here as I've learnt nothing so far. I don't yet see what I could have done better, and I feel that the DK bro was not 'super strong' build, it simply has a class with power oversights.

The current situation is like in poker we have added more combinations to one suit and not to the other three, then we talk about how 'it's okay, by the end of next year the stone suit will also get extra combos and then it will be really good, damn it, don't complain now, because it's worth waiting, in the meantime you can play your clearly disadvantaged suit calmly, don't let the fact that the most recently pimped suit is objectively stronger be an issue.'

There is not a single person from the cc hundred people I've talked to about PvP telling me that 'wow u can't make arca work? arca so powerful damn here's what u have to do'. On the contrary I see people say a lot 'wow u don't have a dk to play pvp since u50? how do u preserve ur sanity bro?'

Sad story.

Radical Centrist? What an odd way of saying "observing the information that I have and going off of that", especially after you have entirely admitted that you DELIBERATELY chose a dichotomy for your Poll specifically because you "tbh don't really care about 'neutral' opinions here for they contain no information and make no difference thus they have no value for my cause". You are fighting for a "cause", and that "cause" is a an increase in Arcanist specific power scaling or DK specific nerfs to match up with how you view the balance should be based off of a single interaction with one DK in an arena.

I have given you plenty off non-neutral opinions, you have simply chosen to ignore them. I pointed out the issue with the line of thinking you have about the class balance, I have pointed out the problems with continually posting about how powerful the NEWLY BUFFED class is, and I have posted about the issues with posting a Poll that holds only a dichotomy. But because you don't want to even consider the "neutral opinion" that you seem to think I have on all fronts, you are ignoring those points seemingly entirely.

The reason you haven't received any tips is because you have not said what the DK was doing. At all. You just said:

"5. Bro DK survived all the above by casting whatever DK stuff and standing in place
6. Bro DK then jumped around, did some other DK stuff (whipwhipwhip) and then I'm dead"

From the looks of it, you don't even know what you were going up against, you couldn't even state what effect you saw or how the DK moved, or what party members were around. Nobody on this forum post was there in your fight, so we can only go off of what YOU have stated. And from the sounds of it? You were outplayed, plain and simple. For all we know the DK put down their banner and made it so they couldn't take more than a % of their health in damage, thus reducing all of the damage output you did to extremely low amounts.

Fun fact about Poker, there is a reason that Holding is a viable strategy, because you don't know what your opponent has and you have an opportunity to come out ahead. On top of that, you can also Hold as a bluff, hoping to scare the other players out of the game and win the hand with a worse one than they had. Not a great analogy.

On the prevalence of DK: I agree, they are everywhere, and I can see why by looking through their skill sets and playing with them. They offer a lot of Damage Resistance options, Crit build options, good AOE along with some Shielding and Healing. They are, in fact, more powerful than they used to be. But here's a fun fact: You don't need to play one if you don't want to. You don't HAVE to play a DK. If you want to get better with Arcanist, I would recommend going for an off-meta build that focuses on the destruction of Shields. OR, look into different set options to boost your own resistances OVER the 33k threshold so that you can attempt to offset the Penetration values from enemies. Not everything needs to be a damage setup, and often times a lot of the tougher builds to go against go for a balance.

Sad story indeed.

I appreciate the rapid-fire backtrack on the resistance advice once you realized Corrosive Armor exists, but your new suggestion is just as bad.

You’re telling me the solution is to build Health, Shields, Recovery, and 'a touch of healing.' Did you actually read my original post? I literally stated I was running 30k Health/Armor, and cycled Evolving Runemend + Resolving Vigor + Rapid Regeneration + Blocking while trying to survive. I was using multiple heals, recovery, and defensive layers, and it still didn't matter because of the raw output disparity.

Your advice boils down to: 'To survive a DK standing still and pressing three buttons, you just need to re-spec your entire character into a pure tank, throw away your damage, and pray.' That is the literal definition of a broken meta.

Also, your poker analogy is still completely backward. 'Holding' isn't a mechanic, and bluffing doesn't work when the cards are face-up on the table—everyone knows the current power scaling of the DK kit.

We can agree to disagree on whether a 2-year balancing timeline is acceptable, but telling players to just 'wait their turn' while the math is objectively stacked against them is still a wild take.

Take care.

Syiccal wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Kalthea wrote: »

Addendum to my earlier suggestion for building Resists against a DK: I was reminded that Corrosive Armor on DK lets you bypass resits. In turn, the best way to build against that is Health/Shields, Health Recovery and a touch of Healing.

Imagine suggesting Building health recovery to counter Corrosive lol
The only counter Is to install the addon since its on consoles too and start running the moment you see It popping

What add-on?

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info4444-DKcorrosiveAlert.html

Kalthea wrote: »

I'm not oblivious that patience is severely lacking in any gaming community, but waiting is very much sound advice. You don't need to play PvP. You don't need to play this game, full-stop. You can take a break and come back after more updates, go do new content you haven't done, or whatever else. You have options. Complaining that the classes that haven't been updated are worse than the un-updated classes is like polishing a car halfway and complaining that the un-polished side isn't as shiny as the polished side. Correct! The work has yet to be done.

So the people that don't like it don't need to play the game, therefore they should keep quiet? What exactly are you trying to state here beyond faulty logic and bait?

Also the analogy is faulty. Ler's correct that.

Who is the polisher that left the car polished half way? It's ZOS. @Usureki is the customer that asked for their car to get polished and recieved one half-polished. You are the person sitting on the side in the chair at the polisher business telling them to stop being angry that the business didn't meet their expectations and that they can take their business elsewhere.

Wow, amazing. After correcting the analogy, it sounds just like bait. Where's the moderator?

Luneca wrote: »

So the people that don't like it don't need to play the game, therefore they should keep quiet? What exactly are you trying to state here beyond faulty logic and bait?

Also the analogy is faulty. Ler's correct that.

Who is the polisher that left the car polished half way? It's ZOS. @Usureki is the customer that asked for their car to get polished and recieved one half-polished. You are the person sitting on the side in the chair at the polisher business telling them to stop being angry that the business didn't meet their expectations and that they can take their business elsewhere.

Wow, amazing. After correcting the analogy, it sounds just like bait. Where's the moderator?

I have no idea how you pulled "people that don't like it don't need to play the game, therefore they should keep quiet" from a suggestion that you can go and do something else, that's a completely different sentence. If you want to play ESO, then keep playing, I'm not going to stop you nor tell you to stop. What I'm against is the repeated discussions from specifically PvP players on the forums discussing how they're getting killed by the newfangled thing that literally just got altered when we're in the middle of a massive alteration to several game systems over time.

You have been told, SEVERAL TIMES, that this is going to be an extremely long process. It is going to take a while to get to all of the classes, it is going to be a change to many different weapon types, it is going to be a change to every class, they are altering the classes in ways that bring them up to par with how powerful Arcanist has been since it launched. Sure, they are going to be powerful, and we might stumble. But instead of offering valid criticism and changes to how the class can be fixed or brought more in line with suggestions such as adding a cooldown time to guaranteed crits or AoE procs, or other suggestions that make sense, these posts are usually just complaints that the class is overpowered because they lost in a 1v1 with a one-sided view into the actual fight.

Yes, let's fix the analogy.

You bought a polish. You were told it would take a week. You wait ONE DAY, and start complaining that the polish isn't finished. Then you demand that they speed up the polish. And you know what happens when they speed it up? They deliver it in 3 days, and you get a horribly waxed surface with obvious blemishes and markings all over it. That is exactly where this is going to end up if people keep demanding alterations to literally every class at the same time after ZOS has stated that they're going to be going slow with it and doing one class at a time.

Stop calling out bait every time you see a dissenting opinion.

I also like that you ignored the rest of the entire discussion we were having. You know, the discussion where I tried to provide feedback, I pointed out the flaw in OPs requests considering they haven't said what was going on in the entire arena and we weren't there to see it happen. Funny how when you add entire context to everything you suddenly get a broader picture and it's not just 'bait'. On top of that, all of the suggestions and discussion I have offered up to this point have been completely ignored, or laughed at because they aren't the current meta, or people don't like them, or they would have to 'change' (goodness forbid). THIS is exactly why I said what I said. Nobody in the PvP discussions wants actual, de-facto balance. They want THEIR balance.

Usureki wrote: »

So let me get this straight. You say that:

1. We aren't supposed to give negative feedback on a game area that is under development, since it is under development.
2. Other classes have to be brought up to the power level of Arcanist with the Class Refresh
3. You are okay with others waiting over 1,5 years to get their classes revamped
4. People do not accept your bad advice, so they just want 'THEIR' balance to be approved

These are serious fallacies. You are starting to give me the feeling that you just copy-paste everything to an LLM and upload the answer without even thinking it through. But regardless, let me react:

1. Everything is under development in ESO, everything can be subject to change, so.. your argument is invalid. Also I don't really understand if you are fed up with forum posts like this, why do you invest the effort of commenting half-baked stuff in the thread in the first place.
2. If you really think DK was supposed to be brought up to be on par with Arcanist in U50, you most certainly don't play any PvP content in this game or just have zero idea of what is going on with the meta. Arcanist was strong when it was introduced and then was also continuously got nerfed terribly through 3 consecutive updates. Since then, for PvP, it is the weakest class. For PvE, it is quite competent, but check the leaderboards - they aren't filled with just Arcanists, there is a great diversity of classes there. But considering PvP... really, I invite you to take a tour on top PvP guides on YouTube or guide websites and try searching for a pure Arcanist build that is recommended by pros. Then in comparison, check the number of videos on DK in the past 3 months. Really, it's gonna be an educative experience. ;3
3. 1,5 years. We are talking one tenth of the whole lifespan of this whole game. Agile software development encourages early and quick deliveries, but nevertheless the aim should be to maintain a working software for the end users. ZOS is clearly failing this objective with this strategy, the current state is a half-baked excuse of an implementation. 1,5 years. Geez.
4. The original intention of this post to represent that a class is clearly overpowered while others are clearly underpowered. You gave bad advice before, that does not help the situation and believe me, there is a long list of other approached those did not work against former mentioned overpowered class. I enjoy a fair fight lost that I can learn from, and believe me my past months have been nothing about but changing my approaches on PvP, trying myriads of strategies and I can feel myself improving month by month. The fact that I still see in BGs that EVERY SINGLE MATCH IS WON BY THE TEAM WITH MORE DKS AND WWS kinda points me to the conclusion, that they are broken. It is not about 'my' balance. It is factual.

Joy, an accusation of being AI. On your first list:

1) Where did I say to not give negative criticism? Why does everyone keep assuming that I'm saying that? Am I typing it in a way that is difficult to understand? I literally said in the post you are responding to that there are ways of providing constructive criticism. I even provided a couple suggestions, like adding internal cooldowns to passive effects on the class to prevent an overload of Crit Procs and the like. Heck, I just blasted the animations in the game in another forum thread. The problem I have with these discussions is that they lack any form of substance. This whole thread was started by someone complaining that they lost in a PvP match. That's it, and that's all we have to go off of.
2) I never said that they had to be? Heck, I even said earlier that if the Warden changes cause them to be worse than before, I'd happily eat my words. But from what we have to go off of so far, DK is very powerful, and Werewolf is very powerful. Both off the big changes they have done so far have been buffs, so I'm making an assumption from what we have that they are trying to bring everything up to a specific level of power.
3) The other classes have been given Masteries as a temporary placeholder to compensate for the wait time and to encourage pure classing, but also: Yep. I am, in fact, okay with waiting, because I have been told several times by the devs that they want to do it a certain way. What am I supposed to do, give them a Blizzard budget and have them add more developers to the team? I'm not on the board, I don't have that kind of money or influence, so I can't really do that. So, I choose to be patient and wait. Regardless of whether or not I want them sooner (and I do, I would love to see everything brought up to a level playing field with cool new changes!), I cannot change what has been done so far.
4) I couldn't help but notice that you picked one of several things that I listed out. Not all advice is good advice, and I accept that. But when I offer advice, and the reaction is "You're telling me I have to change my build?" then the only thing I can conclude from that is that they don't want to change, at all. And I can't help people who don't want to change.

On your second list:

1) It's not half-baked, please read through the whole forum. You've seemingly skimmed my comments from what I can tell, and that doesn't mean that I haven't thought things through, though perhaps I am forgetting to include my thought processes and I apologize if that's causing confusion. As to why: Because you offer a dichotomy in a discussion that requires nuance. I'm not a fan of black/white polls, and the original post doesn't have much in the way of actual criticism on DK. It reads as a hit piece against DK, providing it with no courtesy nor offering up alterations to bring it back in line. The post is inherently reactive: You lost in a fight, you came on here to complain about losing in the fight and proclaim that DK is too powerful.
2) You are correct, I don't keep up with a lot of PvP. But I do know one thing: You never fight alone, regardless of what game mode you are in. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, or how weak an enemy may seem. You are in a TEAM game, doing TEAM things, and you should be doing things with your TEAM. Also: Requiring that I find, VERY SPECIFICALLY, a Pure Arcanist build that suits your criteria isn't really going to be possible considering the potency of mixing Skill Lines. I'm more than aware of how powerful DK is, and as I said before, I offered some suggestions to help with nerfing it.
3) I...you can't be serious? The software IS working. There is nothing wrong with it except that one class is powerful compared to the rest. Balance complaints don't mean the game is broken, it just means it's unbalanced. Whether or not they deliver on the balance in 1.5 years being a good amount of time is a different argument. For the record, and let me emphasize this: I do not think it IS a good amount of time, and I would like to see it sooner. But we know what our time frame is and we can't really change that, can we?
4) Yep, the advice I gave was bad. But does me giving bad advice mean that you have to ignore everything else that I've said? I understand that the new changes to DK and Werewolf have brought them up to a new level of power. I understand that they are extremely powerful. I understand that other classes feel extremely weak in comparison, TRUST ME I DO. I play every class in the game, and I main a Magicka Warden, which has been at the bottom of every chart in the game except healing for a very, VERY long time.

What would make you satisfied? At what point would you be okay with the game's balance? If Warden is brought up to a point where it matches DK and Werewolf as they are now, what would your opinion be then?

I also...don't see any fallacy? Where have I said anything false, or used a falsehood to develop an argument? Sure, you can view my opinion on PvP posts like this as radical, and I wouldn't mind, as has happened already. But that is an opinion, based around my own observations. I do not present it as a fact, because there are plenty of folks who take posts like this to heart. If I HAVE presented anything using a falsehood, please let me know.

I don't really appreciate the libel you have given me. "Radical Centrist", "using an LLM", "serious fallacies", and yet I offer up discussion, advice where I can and am willing to accept where I am wrong. I understand that I hold differing opinions from you, and it may seem like I'm attacking you, but I'm only going after arguments and presentation. I haven't once gone after you (unless you consider me pointing out the seeming avoidance of parts of my responses as an attack for some reason?), and I would appreciate receiving the same respect in turn.

If you only read a tiny bit of this post, please make it this section: I hold a contrarian opinion, I am aware of that. But I ultimately want balance in the game, like many folks do. So let's turn the discussion to more constructive thoughts:

1) What do you think would improve Arcanist?
2) What would you do to bring current DK into line?
3) Where do you want Arcanist to sit compared to current DK and Werewolf?