WW heal should NOT scale off health

Triipzzz · June 27

For the record I actually like the WW rework but think they have this part completely wrong. We have been here before with Warden. No heals at all should be based of health, perhaps just shields. There is simply not enough burst to take them out even with a decent combo unblocked and stunned. This play style encourages building with a ridiculous amount of health which would typically result in no damage since they are forgoing max mag and stam except these 45-50k health WW's running around endlessly actually hit super hard with the broken Shattered Paths Signet and Serpents Disdain setup. A reminder they also generate stam from the heal, do not have to apply major buffs and get a flat movement speed passive so all they do is kite a tower with 50k health until they can kill a few casuals. Do you really think casual players will put up with this?

dark_hunterxmg · June 27

Triipzzz wrote: »

For the record I actually like the WW rework but think they have this part completely wrong. We have been here before with Warden. No heals at all should be based of health, perhaps just shields. There is simply not enough burst to take them out even with a decent combo unblocked and stunned. This play style encourages building with a ridiculous amount of health which would typically result in no damage since they are forgoing max mag and stam except these 45-50k health WW's running around endlessly actually hit super hard with the broken Shattered Paths Signet and Serpents Disdain setup. A reminder they also generate stam from the heal, do not have to apply major buffs and get a flat movement speed passive so all they do is kite a tower with 50k health until they can kill a few casuals. Do you really think casual players will put up with this?

Werewolf has always had a health scaled burst heal. Now it has a weapon damage variant, but it sucks even more than the health version. The new heal is %33 less than U49. I would still run 40k+ health even if it didn't scale on health because of the high burst damage available to human players. We all know about the boring Shattered Path's Signet/Disdain/whatever builds. They're good on human builds too. This sounds more like a complaint about not being able to kill something than there being an actual problem. Have you fought a good Sorcerer or Dragon Knight lately?

Luneca · June 27

No heal should scale off health. It's the least investment stat in the game and provides the most benefit. No more heals on health. No more shields on health.

Foxtrot39 · June 28

No max health scaling healing directly hurt tanks in trials that don't have a group full of +150k dps to nuke boss before it even start doing damage when in HM prog groups

Dalsinthus · June 28

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

No max health scaling healing directly hurt tanks in trials that don't have a group full of +150k dps to nuke boss before it even start doing damage when in HM prog groups

But doesn't it help cement the importance of the healer role?

brtomkin · June 29

The WW burst heal scales off health, but it costs magicka. Not many WW players are spec'ing into mag and mag recovery, so the burst heal has limited use. The healing is coming from the offensive skills or class passives if they're a sorc (or maybe a set like gorethief).

DK and Warden have burst heals that also scale off health (or missing health) and are every bit as powerful as the WW burst heal.

Elendildur · June 29

brtomkin wrote: »

The WW burst heal scales off health, but it costs magicka. Not many WW players are spec'ing into mag and mag recovery, so the burst heal has limited use. The healing is coming from the offensive skills or class passives if they're a sorc (or maybe a set like gorethief).

DK and Warden have burst heals that also scale off health (or missing health) and are every bit as powerful as the WW burst heal.

Every class has at least one Max Health scaling heal. Arcanist has Runic Defense and Runespite Ward, Dragonknight has Dragon Blood and Heart of Flame, Necromancer has Death Scythe and Bitter Harvest, Nightblade has Dark Cloak, Sorcerer has Summon Unstable Clannfear, Regenerative Ward and Blood Magic, Templar has Rune Focus, and Warden has Arctic Wind

brtomkin · June 29

Elendildur wrote: »

brtomkin wrote: »

The WW burst heal scales off health, but it costs magicka. Not many WW players are spec'ing into mag and mag recovery, so the burst heal has limited use. The healing is coming from the offensive skills or class passives if they're a sorc (or maybe a set like gorethief).

DK and Warden have burst heals that also scale off health (or missing health) and are every bit as powerful as the WW burst heal.

Every class has at least one Max Health scaling heal. Arcanist has Runic Defense and Runespite Ward, Dragonknight has Dragon Blood and Heart of Flame, Necromancer has Death Scythe and Bitter Harvest, Nightblade has Dark Cloak, Sorcerer has Summon Unstable Clannfear, Regenerative Ward and Blood Magic, Templar has Rune Focus, and Warden has Arctic Wind

Thanks for adding that list! So, reinforcing my point: why shouldn't a werewolf be allowed a health scaling heal?

Chrlynsch · June 29

The problem is that the new werewolf's damage doesn't really come max resources like regular classes do. So they can stack health without giving up much damage.

brtomkin · June 29

Many highly effective PVP players are building with 40k+ health, especially DKs, wardens, and now sorcs... it's not just WWs. How many PVP players aren't putting 64 points into health? The ones that aren't are enabling the vicious death procs and pulse ganks. It might change with today's nerf to the new mythic, but I'll believe it when I see it.

aLi3nZ · June 30

Agree, ww rework is excellent. Keep everything as is besides the heal. The heal is overturned.

Foxtrot39 · June 30

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

No max health scaling healing directly hurt tanks in trials that don't have a group full of +150k dps to nuke boss before it even start doing damage when in HM prog groups

But doesn't it help cement the importance of the healer role?

Sometime you get hit by such a combo (massive health absorb + DoT + initial attack damage and potentially a healing received debuff like in Cloudrest execution phase) that a healer simply can't out heal it in time and any extra healing helps between dying and loosing the boss or surviving and beating it

Then doing portal rotation when the healer would get peppered by 10k projectile the tank can't do anything about while being put under pressure itself by both the projectile and Zmaja's beam and ball spam would mean if the healer dies the trial auto fails

As tank to aggro and survive is the foundation of the role, self heal make a good chunk of the "survive" part, what the tank can't do is effectively blanketing an area with good heals to keep the team alive and sustaining those self heals under pressure for a long period of time depending on the class

Healer role ain't appreciated or needed enough most of the time I know that but making the healer another auto fail state factor if dead for just a few moments during boss fights isn't changing things for the better either

Wuuffyy · June 30

This is post Shattered nerf ofc but more to your point OP-

If they consider max health scaling in PvP as an issue then they should also consider Blood Magic, sorc shield, warden Polar, Gore, and more -+ the resolution should honestly be in favor of wep/spell scaling ‘under battle spirit’ (to avoid unnecessary PvE tanking nerfs).

That is to say werewolf healing should remain strong when stacking wep/spell + stam/mag in that scenario and, as mentioned, that type of adjustment shouldn’t just be targeted at werewolf specifically if they were to actually feel the need to make these types of changes.

—-

I’ll say that just swapping from Fortitude to Rage, the healing lost feels significant. I couldn’t see this level of healing being feasible if they ever touched health-stack also. (zos pls implement a health cap outside of transformations that aren’t werewolf via Battle Spirit 0.o)

More to the point directly above, I believe that the average player severely underestimates the amount of healing received from healing soul+vigor on command just by themselves… and then everything else healing-wise you can get on a DK, for example, that you are barred from completely on werewolf.

*edit: also, armor pots (which DK and WW can make use of far more easily than other specs) should legitimately just not exist anymore. Again these are based off old armor buff values… and even then they didn’t really make sense

Palumtra · June 30

Heal /Shield based on health should be tank exclusive, but the tank build also has so much damage it doesn't matter.

IZZEFlameLash · July 1

brtomkin wrote: »

Many highly effective PVP players are building with 40k+ health, especially DKs, wardens, and now sorcs... it's not just WWs. How many PVP players aren't putting 64 points into health? The ones that aren't are enabling the vicious death procs and pulse ganks. It might change with today's nerf to the new mythic, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Tbh, a solution to 40k+ health would be to impose damage done reduction that begins at 35k health and 1% per every 1k additional health. But, eh... damage in general is high and no one really survives being surrounded by 2-4 decent players unless they are exploiting some mechanic or full on tank with little to no damage. So, I am not 100% on it.

Usureki · July 1

I think no heal should be based on max health and I think no generalised offensive stat should empower heals on this level. I'm really fed up with these 'one stat for everything' direction we have nowadays, I think it makes zero sense and abolishes character customisation with no-tradeoff go-to nonsense builds.

dark_hunterxmg · July 3

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Tbh, a solution to 40k+ health would be to impose damage done reduction that begins at 35k health and 1% per every 1k additional health. But, eh... damage in general is high and no one really survives being surrounded by 2-4 decent players unless they are exploiting some mechanic or full on tank with little to no damage. So, I am not 100% on it.

Healing ability should scale inversely with damage output. High damage and high healing output at the same time should not be a thing.

IZZEFlameLash · July 3

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Tbh, a solution to 40k+ health would be to impose damage done reduction that begins at 35k health and 1% per every 1k additional health. But, eh... damage in general is high and no one really survives being surrounded by 2-4 decent players unless they are exploiting some mechanic or full on tank with little to no damage. So, I am not 100% on it.

Healing ability should scale inversely with damage output. High damage and high healing output at the same time should not be a thing.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to attach healing done debuff for sure after certain threshold...

Wuuffyy · July 3

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Tbh, a solution to 40k+ health would be to impose damage done reduction that begins at 35k health and 1% per every 1k additional health. But, eh... damage in general is high and no one really survives being surrounded by 2-4 decent players unless they are exploiting some mechanic or full on tank with little to no damage. So, I am not 100% on it.

Healing ability should scale inversely with damage output. High damage and high healing output at the same time should not be a thing.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to attach healing done debuff for sure after certain threshold...

Sure. Attach it to all health-based heals though or find another solution. How dare werewolf have DK level sustain- amirite?

Firstmep · July 3

I understand that the devs want ww players to be able to tank and giving health scaling heals seems like a good idea, but some of the values are outright insane. Rip and tear is a spammable and I regularly get 10k+ heals off of it. In pvp.
Imagine if templars puncturing sweeps healed for that much.
Health scaling heals in general are an issue in pvp right now, and a lot of masteries have hp scaling built in too.

On my templar bastion of light, another hp scaling heal, is almost always at least 35% of my total healing.
Maybe a cap on their scaling while under the effects of battle spirit could help.

Triipzzz · July 14

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This is post Shattered nerf ofc but more to your point OP-

If they consider max health scaling in PvP as an issue then they should also consider Blood Magic, sorc shield, warden Polar, Gore, and more -+ the resolution should honestly be in favor of wep/spell scaling ‘under battle spirit’ (to avoid unnecessary PvE tanking nerfs).

That is to say werewolf healing should remain strong when stacking wep/spell + stam/mag in that scenario and, as mentioned, that type of adjustment shouldn’t just be targeted at werewolf specifically if they were to actually feel the need to make these types of changes.

—-

I’ll say that just swapping from Fortitude to Rage, the healing lost feels significant. I couldn’t see this level of healing being feasible if they ever touched health-stack also. (zos pls implement a health cap outside of transformations that aren’t werewolf via Battle Spirit 0.o)

More to the point directly above, I believe that the average player severely underestimates the amount of healing received from healing soul+vigor on command just by themselves… and then everything else healing-wise you can get on a DK, for example, that you are barred from completely on werewolf.

*edit: also, armor pots (which DK and WW can make use of far more easily than other specs) should legitimately just not exist anymore. Again these are based off old armor buff values… and even then they didn’t really make sense

I am 100% in favor of a health cap. Everyone stacking health in PvP is turning it into vengeance. 35k is plenty if you intend to do damage or stack heals. Anything above that nearly always requires a good sized group to kill which feels endless and disengaging. We have been losing good fights when outnumbered simply because the other team has a ton of WWs and tanks with brainless build and no strategy on top of us. This play style has not strategy, group synergy or skill. Even when our group is comped out with correct sets to benefit one another in the form of enemy debuffs and increased damage it is not always enough.

Triipzzz · July 14

Firstmep wrote: »

I understand that the devs want ww players to be able to tank and giving health scaling heals seems like a good idea, but some of the values are outright insane. Rip and tear is a spammable and I regularly get 10k+ heals off of it. In pvp.
Imagine if templars puncturing sweeps healed for that much.
Health scaling heals in general are an issue in pvp right now, and a lot of masteries have hp scaling built in too.

On my templar bastion of light, another hp scaling heal, is almost always at least 35% of my total healing.
Maybe a cap on their scaling while under the effects of battle spirit could help.

To be fair I'm not sure the devs or atleast that guy Brian in charge of combat has any idea what balance is. The fact one whip morph on DK is a single target increased damage no heal and the other is 5 aoe increased damage with a big heal tells you what you need to know.

IZZEFlameLash · July 14

Triipzzz wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I understand that the devs want ww players to be able to tank and giving health scaling heals seems like a good idea, but some of the values are outright insane. Rip and tear is a spammable and I regularly get 10k+ heals off of it. In pvp.
Imagine if templars puncturing sweeps healed for that much.
Health scaling heals in general are an issue in pvp right now, and a lot of masteries have hp scaling built in too.

On my templar bastion of light, another hp scaling heal, is almost always at least 35% of my total healing.
Maybe a cap on their scaling while under the effects of battle spirit could help.

To be fair I'm not sure the devs or atleast that guy Brian in charge of combat has any idea what balance is. The fact one whip morph on DK is a single target increased damage no heal and the other is 5 aoe increased damage with a big heal tells you what you need to know.

Same had been said when Wrobel was in charge too. So... it's been the question unanswered for a decade and won't be answered even after the eventual demise of the game.