Class balance

Prionyx · June 24

That's about it. 5/7 classes are totally unplayable. What was the point of nerfing masteries? You could remove battle spirit penalties, double the values of templar's or NB's masteries and they would still be WAY behind DK or WW, while being a lot harder to play. What was the point of intentionally making most of the classes dead? You just wanted to get more feedback on WW by forcing everyone to play it? Well that's a strange way to do things

BXR_Lonestar · June 24

Its no mistake that the "classes" (we'll call a werewolf a class - even though every class can be a werewolf) that are on top are the ones that were most recently reworked. I think they're going to try to bring everything up to the level of the DK and the Werewolf with all the class reworks.

The problem is that it is going to take 2 years for them to do it - so we have to wait 2 years for the game to be more or less "balanced?" So play the meta, or don't bother? That's not healthy for the game either. In PVP, it is especially frustrating where 3-4 DK's can take on a 12 man, and even if the 12 man can/should win, the battle it a sweat fest and inevitably involves running around in circles in a tower. It's just not fun.

Just in general, this latest PVP patch has seemed to suck all the fun out of PVP, and I think this is a contributing factor. And yes, I have tried a werewolf. Yes I have 2 DK's (But no, I don't play them in PVP - I've never been a DK player).

rlindsey912nub18_ESO · June 24

I’ve literally said this before zos released dk that PvP would suck and the fact they they thought it would be ok to do werewolf be classes speaks volumes and that it would be play meta or don’t play at all! Its sucks that I can’t compete on my favorite and only class I play not because the other guy is better but because dks and ww brings guns to a knife fight

Prionyx · June 24

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Its no mistake that the "classes" (we'll call a werewolf a class - even though every class can be a werewolf) that are on top are the ones that were most recently reworked. I think they're going to try to bring everything up to the level of the DK and the Werewolf with all the class reworks.

The problem is that it is going to take 2 years for them to do it - so we have to wait 2 years for the game to be more or less "balanced?" So play the meta, or don't bother? That's not healthy for the game either. In PVP, it is especially frustrating where 3-4 DK's can take on a 12 man, and even if the 12 man can/should win, the battle it a sweat fest and inevitably involves running around in circles in a tower. It's just not fun.

Just in general, this latest PVP patch has seemed to suck all the fun out of PVP, and I think this is a contributing factor. And yes, I have tried a werewolf. Yes I have 2 DK's (But no, I don't play them in PVP - I've never been a DK player).

Sorc isn't reworked but it's strong. They just decided to keep other classes dead even though they admitted other classes(at least for NB that's true) being weak

SneaK · June 24

This is the worst my NB has ever felt.

seventy_kg · June 25

This is very true, but I do want to point out that at least from speaking to the people I know, we want the other classes to be brought up to the power level of DK's and WW's, not simply nerfing Dk and WW down to keep the power level balanced

wolfie1.0. · June 25

The whole point of the class rework is to bring things in line. The most recent ones should be at the top.

I remember when people were complaining about nihhtblades being the top in pvp...or at least the most annoying.

Let zos cook a bit.

Though I do think that they should have focused on the 4 base classes first.

Arunei · June 25

If they'd done all the Classes at once like people have suggested, it would have taken 2 years to release everything and people would complain about how they should have broken it up.

Maybe they could have done like two Classes per update, but then we'd have to wait twice as long and have much the same issue of "X Class is subjectively the worst why isn't it getting updated before Y Class".

It sucks that things have to take a while but people would honestly be mad no matter what ZOS did, and we'd still be waiting no matter what they did.

umagon · June 25

I keep wondering if bolstering darkness will finally get improved. They have had years to work on it, yet every year it gets passed up and ignored.

Luneca · June 25

Arunei wrote: »

If they'd done all the Classes at once like people have suggested, it would have taken 2 years to release everything and people would complain about how they should have broken it up.

No it wouldn't have. If they released masteries, then did all reworks at once, I highly doubt there would be as much complaining.

You're enjoying the game with it's lopsided balance. Great. But let's not try and twist reality.

If you believe otherwise, please start a poll and ask if people would rather have this trickle effect and classes left unbalanced for so long. I think we all know the result, which is why even ZOS won't dare release such a poll.

nightbringer1993 · June 25

Right now we are going to be forced to play refreshed classes, the hateful thing is that that they are refreshing the strong classes first and the weakest like necromancer will be last.

Right now the game is unplayable for me, necromancers getting kicked of PVE contents and trashed in PvP, and ZOS tells us to wait another one and a half year, a class people paid for!

I spent time, efforts and money in this game, and this is how I am being thanked.

I don’t want to play DK!

I don’t want to play werewolf!

I don’t want to play warden( the class I hate the most, especially since the infamous charm)!

I don’t want to play sorcerer!

I want to play with my necromancer in both PvE and PvP, but I can’t because the class is too weak, too nerfed, and too destroyed.

People are leaving the game because of this, and I saw it for the last three weeks I spent in the game after the DK patch, cyro was empty of proper battles and DK roaming the place farming other players, and the map was either full red or full blue. People were rage quitting BGs. When I saw the state of PvP, and how overpowered the DK was when I tried it. I left the game and cancelled eso plus because after over three months, things are not changing, despite those class masteries that are completely lackluster.

Firstmep · June 25

seventy_kg wrote: »

This is very true, but I do want to point out that at least from speaking to the people I know, we want the other classes to be brought up to the power level of DK's and WW's, not simply nerfing Dk and WW down to keep the power level balanced

And it's likely happening. We are seeing, honestly unprecedented levels of power creep this year. The potion changes are another indicator of where the devs are going in terms of power creep.

Mashille · June 25

seventy_kg wrote: »

This is very true, but I do want to point out that at least from speaking to the people I know, we want the other classes to be brought up to the power level of DK's and WW's, not simply nerfing Dk and WW down to keep the power level balanced

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't want this to be the case at all.

The reworked DK skills mean they don't have to worry about resource management, while also having great defence and healing, as well a strong DOTS and AOE burst.

Classes should not exceed at all these things simultaneously and if they make every class just as good then it will remove a lot of the decision making of creating a build as you won't have any downsides that you need to make up for.

Arunei · June 25

Luneca wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

If they'd done all the Classes at once like people have suggested, it would have taken 2 years to release everything and people would complain about how they should have broken it up.

No it wouldn't have. If they released masteries, then did all reworks at once, I highly doubt there would be as much complaining.

You're enjoying the game with it's lopsided balance. Great. But let's not try and twist reality.

If you believe otherwise, please start a poll and ask if people would rather have this trickle effect and classes left unbalanced for so long. I think we all know the result, which is why even ZOS won't dare release such a poll.

...except Mastery Passives are out and people are still complaining. People aren't a hivemind, there are people who would prefer waiting. There are people who'd complain about waiting. There are people who wouldn't care. People WOULD complain no matter what ZOS opted to do. And given how people feel about certain Class Mastery Passives, which is to say there are those people point out as being lackluster or underperforming, there 100% would have been people dissatisfied. Because there ARE people dissatisfied. People are still pointing out how there are Classes that are better than others because they got better Mastery Passives.

And maybe don't put words in peoples' mouths to make a point. Who says I'm enjoying lopsided balance? There's no twisting reality, but there is making assumptions to try and back up an argument going on.

Let's also not sit here and act like polls really mean anything or like it's some sort of gotcha. People have done polls here that have had wildly different results from actual game data. And why would ZOS release ANY poll like that? "They wouldn't dare"...what, not do something they've never done before anyway? When was the last time there was an official poll held here by ZOS that they used for gathering data as opposed to looking at the actual in-game data?

Actually, you're twisting my words by trying to say "people would be unhappy no matter what ZOS opted to do" somehow means "lots of people are satisfied with the current way things are being done". I literally never claimed what you're trying to say I'm saying. I said no matter what they did people would be unhappy and regardless of how they handled it we'd have to wait.

Luneca · June 25

Arunei wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

If they'd done all the Classes at once like people have suggested, it would have taken 2 years to release everything and people would complain about how they should have broken it up.

No it wouldn't have. If they released masteries, then did all reworks at once, I highly doubt there would be as much complaining.

You're enjoying the game with it's lopsided balance. Great. But let's not try and twist reality.

If you believe otherwise, please start a poll and ask if people would rather have this trickle effect and classes left unbalanced for so long. I think we all know the result, which is why even ZOS won't dare release such a poll.

...except Mastery Passives are out and people are still complaining. People aren't a hivemind, there are people who would prefer waiting. There are people who'd complain about waiting. There are people who wouldn't care. People WOULD complain no matter what ZOS opted to do. And given how people feel about certain Class Mastery Passives, which is to say there are those people point out as being lackluster or underperforming, there 100% would have been people dissatisfied. Because there ARE people dissatisfied. People are still pointing out how there are Classes that are better than others because they got better Mastery Passives.

And maybe don't put words in peoples' mouths to make a point. Who says I'm enjoying lopsided balance? There's no twisting reality, but there is making assumptions to try and back up an argument going on.

Let's also not sit here and act like polls really mean anything or like it's some sort of gotcha. People have done polls here that have had wildly different results from actual game data. And why would ZOS release ANY poll like that? "They wouldn't dare"...what, not do something they've never done before anyway? When was the last time there was an official poll held here by ZOS that they used for gathering data as opposed to looking at the actual in-game data?

Actually, you're twisting my words by trying to say "people would be unhappy no matter what ZOS opted to do" somehow means "lots of people are satisfied with the current way things are being done". I literally never claimed what you're trying to say I'm saying. I said no matter what they did people would be unhappy and regardless of how they handled it we'd have to wait.

Maybe it wasn't clear, but I meant that masteries could have come out before any reworks, and then the reworks all come out at once. People are complaining now because, despite the masteries, balance still sucks and the game isn't enjoyable for anyone not playing a small subset of specs.

And that's the case when ZOS is handing nerfs out to other classes that haven't gotten any reworks. As for the rest, please post the poll. Or do you already know the results?

I could never run defense for a poor change just because it benefits my power fantasy in a game. If people didn't complain about the misguided changes on the LIVE server right now, then you better believe everyone on these forums and ZOS would have to be sweating. Because the moment they aren't complaining, guess what it means?

They either no longer care, or are gone or soon to be gone -- either way it means the game is on a death trajectory. I won't bother arguing against the rest you posted, unless you can explain why you posted an attack on anyone that is giving negative feedback in the first place.

Wait, I will counter what else you posted by using the same logic you just used: even though that's what I did, it wasn't what I meant. Wow, what a convienient way to use ambiguity.

rlindsey912nub18_ESO · June 25

People 100% have the right to be mad they paid their hard earned money for a game they should be able to enjoy the way they want to and many like myself have invested 10 plus years in the game and it’s nearly 15 years old so to ask players to wait 2 years on a 15 year old game to fix a broken system no one asked for (subclassing)by doing a class refresh great idea but wrong way to do it one by one horrible decision anyway to ask that of your players is just straight up crazy

BXR_Lonestar · June 25

Prionyx wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Its no mistake that the "classes" (we'll call a werewolf a class - even though every class can be a werewolf) that are on top are the ones that were most recently reworked. I think they're going to try to bring everything up to the level of the DK and the Werewolf with all the class reworks.

The problem is that it is going to take 2 years for them to do it - so we have to wait 2 years for the game to be more or less "balanced?" So play the meta, or don't bother? That's not healthy for the game either. In PVP, it is especially frustrating where 3-4 DK's can take on a 12 man, and even if the 12 man can/should win, the battle it a sweat fest and inevitably involves running around in circles in a tower. It's just not fun.

Just in general, this latest PVP patch has seemed to suck all the fun out of PVP, and I think this is a contributing factor. And yes, I have tried a werewolf. Yes I have 2 DK's (But no, I don't play them in PVP - I've never been a DK player).

Sorc isn't reworked but it's strong. They just decided to keep other classes dead even though they admitted other classes(at least for NB that's true) being weak

But the difference is that Sorc was always strong because of shield stacking and mobility. Nothing about subclassing changed that, and nothing about the class mastery stuff changed that. It was a strong class before and it's still a strong class today. That shouldn't be a shock.

IMO, the way they're approaching this is like Bungie's approach to balancing in Destiny 1 - where they couldn't achieve 1 to 1 balance between weapon classes and player classes, so they said screw it, they're just going to make tweaks and changes to allow every weapon/character class have its day so to speak. That's great if you want to ride the meta like a rented mule, but if you don't, then the game becomes very unpalatable, which is where it is at for me personally.

Daoin · June 25

Prionyx wrote: »

That's about it. 5/7 classes are totally unplayable. What was the point of nerfing masteries? You could remove battle spirit penalties, double the values of templar's or NB's masteries and they would still be WAY behind DK or WW, while being a lot harder to play. What was the point of intentionally making most of the classes dead? You just wanted to get more feedback on WW by forcing everyone to play it? Well that's a strange way to do things

rrrrrrrrrrrrr
all still pretty much fun to play, just because elitist players wont allow them in groups covet score pushing andbasically alk alot and dont attract a ore significant playerbase im not sure what the point your making is

Daoin · June 25

sorry my keyboard went potty as i was typing and still cannot edit

SneaK · June 25

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Its no mistake that the "classes" (we'll call a werewolf a class - even though every class can be a werewolf) that are on top are the ones that were most recently reworked. I think they're going to try to bring everything up to the level of the DK and the Werewolf with all the class reworks.

The problem is that it is going to take 2 years for them to do it - so we have to wait 2 years for the game to be more or less "balanced?" So play the meta, or don't bother? That's not healthy for the game either. In PVP, it is especially frustrating where 3-4 DK's can take on a 12 man, and even if the 12 man can/should win, the battle it a sweat fest and inevitably involves running around in circles in a tower. It's just not fun.

Just in general, this latest PVP patch has seemed to suck all the fun out of PVP, and I think this is a contributing factor. And yes, I have tried a werewolf. Yes I have 2 DK's (But no, I don't play them in PVP - I've never been a DK player).

Sorc isn't reworked but it's strong. They just decided to keep other classes dead even though they admitted other classes(at least for NB that's true) being weak

But the difference is that Sorc was always strong because of shield stacking and mobility. Nothing about subclassing changed that, and nothing about the class mastery stuff changed that. It was a strong class before and it's still a strong class today. That shouldn't be a shock.

IMO, the way they're approaching this is like Bungie's approach to balancing in Destiny 1 - where they couldn't achieve 1 to 1 balance between weapon classes and player classes, so they said screw it, they're just going to make tweaks and changes to allow every weapon/character class have its day so to speak. That's great if you want to ride the meta like a rented mule, but if you don't, then the game becomes very unpalatable, which is where it is at for me personally.

Sorc is strong cause it wound up with strong class masteries on top of an overperforming class skill line. No it’s not a surprise, but it is a miss on ZOS part. The masteries on NB are massive under-performers in PvP, on top of a new mechanic introduced that directly counters stealth in Cyro. U50 is anti NB.

Seraphayel · June 25

I'll just repeat myself, every class getting reworked needs to have an automatic -20% damage debuff. Every new reworked class that's following gets this too. After the last class has been reworked, all of these debuffs get removed.

CAB_Life · June 25

They will never achieve it, because by the time you have “balanced” the last class two years from now, the originally balanced classes will be in need of tuning since so many new sets/ combos/ bugs have been implemented or discovered. You cannot catch a moving target, and this was obvious from the beginning. The only way to effectively balance the classes was to do an all-hands-on deck, everyone in the studio working on this update for a single patch—at best two in succession—then balancing whatever mess comes of that. Then at least you’re moving forward with a stable foundation.

Plus if the industry keeps contracting—and we know MS, Bethesda, possibly ZoS will be announcing more cuts soon, the new Xbox head said so—you can expect their timeline to extend further if even being completed at all.

I’d like to be optimistic, but I think realism is the better choice here.

Prionyx · June 25

Daoin wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

That's about it. 5/7 classes are totally unplayable. What was the point of nerfing masteries? You could remove battle spirit penalties, double the values of templar's or NB's masteries and they would still be WAY behind DK or WW, while being a lot harder to play. What was the point of intentionally making most of the classes dead? You just wanted to get more feedback on WW by forcing everyone to play it? Well that's a strange way to do things

rrrrrrrrrrrrr
all still pretty much fun to play, just because elitist players wont allow them in groups covet score pushing andbasically alk alot and dont attract a ore significant playerbase im not sure what the point your making is

The point is that world strongest NB/plar/necro will lose 100/100 duels to a below average WW. Worst balance I've ever seen in my entire life

AScarlato · June 25

Definitely how I have felt in BGs and that 80 to 90% of people in BGs are WW, DK, and Sorc is in line with this.

BardokRedSnow · June 25

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

In PVP, it is especially frustrating where 3-4 DK's can take on a 12 man, and even if the 12 man can/should win, the battle it a sweat fest and inevitably involves running around in circles in a tower. It's just not fun.

This is true, but counterpoint, this was also true when subclassing was introduced.

I think it was worse really, only problem was everyone could subclass so it was everywhere, and less people were playing than now.

This is the reason Im able to hold out, the game is day and night for participating players between now and that dark day the solstice update dropped. More and more will return with each rework, its at least better than the stagnant boring game we had before. Sooner that warden rework drops the better

illutian · June 25

What do you mean? It's perfectly balanced to see a DK running around with 82k HP, and tanking 12+ enemy players without even dropping below 60% HP.

What they need to do, specifically for PVP...where any of this even matters. Is do what FF14 did and standardize, at the very least, the Resources.

Basically, do what they did for Shields and put a cap on how much HP, MP, and Stamina you can squeeze into a build.

Yo, Zenny, you wanna make bank? Introduce Classic Change tokens so we can reroll our mains to the hot new meta "foundation class" (the one skill line you can't change).

Gunthar · June 25

Sorcerer on A? LOL. My sorc currently quite sucks on the DPS side. Looks more like a tank.

danko355 · June 25

I really hope that each reworked class will be not on par, but stronger than the previous ones so that DKs and werewolves could feel the struggle of other classes right now. I think that’s fair.

Prionyx · June 25

Gunthar wrote: »

Sorcerer on A? LOL. My sorc currently quite sucks on the DPS side. Looks more like a tank.

Build it properly

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 25

rlindsey912nub18_ESO wrote: »

People 100% have the right to be mad they paid their hard earned money for a game they should be able to enjoy the way they want to and many like myself have invested 10 plus years in the game and it’s nearly 15 years old so to ask players to wait 2 years on a 15 year old game to fix a broken system no one asked for (subclassing)by doing a class refresh great idea but wrong way to do it one by one horrible decision anyway to ask that of your players is just straight up crazy

This is a direct result of the broken cherry picking system known as Subclass. Subclass needs to be removed. Everyone who kept saying Subclassing was such a great thing and didn't want it nerfed are responsible for this. If you don't like the new DK, go get your Subclass. If you think the new Werewolf is unfair, go get your Subclass. If you were fed up with 8 dps beamers for over a year in every trial, go get your Subclass.

They sure couldn't take their Subclass off fast enough at U50. I watched all the Subclass lovers run to Evermore so fast there were almost trails of flame behind them. It was never about Subclass with these people, its broken metas. And every time I see these same people in the game, I am obligated to ask, "Where is your Subclass?"

If you're a Necro main and you think another year or 2 is too much, go get your Subclass. If you think some of the Class Mastery passives are inadequate or underwhelming, go get your Subclass. If you're playing characters that aren't your Main character and haven't been for over a year, go get your Subclass.

Subclass CANNOT and WILL NOT ever be balanced. It needs to go. We need a return to a rules based combat order through Classes and a return to sanity in combat. After that, deal with out of control mythics and balance the characters. Balance was not perfect before Subclass but it was 100% better than anything that has transpired since U46 whatsoever.

Daoin · June 25

Prionyx wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

That's about it. 5/7 classes are totally unplayable. What was the point of nerfing masteries? You could remove battle spirit penalties, double the values of templar's or NB's masteries and they would still be WAY behind DK or WW, while being a lot harder to play. What was the point of intentionally making most of the classes dead? You just wanted to get more feedback on WW by forcing everyone to play it? Well that's a strange way to do things

rrrrrrrrrrrrr
all still pretty much fun to play, just because elitist players wont allow them in groups covet score pushing andbasically alk alot and dont attract a ore significant playerbase im not sure what the point your making is

The point is that world strongest NB/plar/necro will lose 100/100 duels to a below average WW. Worst balance I've ever seen in my entire life

then take a class to your duals that could win, i mean the saying goes 'dont take a knife to a guunfight right' ?