Inconsistent Varen's Legacy Skill Interactions

VoidParticle · June 20

Varen's Legacy 5 pc Set

1206 Max Health
1096 Max Stamina
4% Healing Taken
When you Block, your next direct damage area of effect attack used within 5 seconds deals an additional 3290 damage.
This bonus does not work with channeled effects. This effect can occur once every 2 seconds.

This set will proc damage on Tentacular Dread (arcanist) as it is a direct damage AOE, but will not grant 33% bonus damage per crux. This means the damage calculation is only adding Varen's after crux multiplies the base damage. However, whirlwind execute WILL multiply the damage of Varen's Legacy by the execute percentage. If neither did, I'd admit defeat and realize someone refuses to let the set have a multiplier, but it's just inconsistent. When I test further it seems Ufsild's Contingency with warrior's opportunity (2000 bonus damage) will not multiply either, but will multiply on execute skill bonus multiplier damage.

Is there a reason some skills add flat damage before multiplying while others use their in-built multipliers on only base damage and then add flat additional damage after?

Tentacular Dread: [ Base * ( 1+ ( 0.33 * crux ) ] + Added Dmg

Execute skills: [ ( Base + Added Dmg ) * Execute % ]

The execute skill gets the beneficial math for DPS. Tentacular dread is the opposite. I know this could make tentacular dread get some really crazy damage, but couldn't the skill be built around the payoff of generating crux and stacking damage? I'm a little sad that Inspired Scholarship isn't true flat damage for arcanist skills as well. It's such a small bonus when it's not being added underneath the skill multipliers. I feel like the Herald of the Tome skill line should have been designed around letting any Tome-Bearer's Inspiration morphs buff the crux consuming skills underneath their multipliers. This game likes to take all of my build theory crafting ideas and destroy them.

Urzigurumash · June 20

How about Reverse Slice? I remember it was recently coded to be a True AoE and not Splash Damage. I can't remember if it used to work with Varen's.

What about Draugrkin? If Varen's and Draugkin both work the same with these skills then you could say the problem is whether "Bonus Damage" gets Execute Scaling rather than just Varen's. I don't remember where that term comes from but I'm pretty sure that's the technical term for Varen's Wall.

It's always been an inconsistent set, for instance I believe the Channeled text was added to clarify it shouldn't work with Jabs, but it seems to have a broad definition of Channeled.

VoidParticle · June 20

I've heard reverse slice could work. It's just that when you want to perform an execute, you can't wait to block an attack, otherwise the target will just heal up. So for PVP it isn't good. In terms of PVE, I don't think people want to waste a 5 pc set just to buff 1 or 2 AOE skills unless it's meaningful.

The fact that the set's damage can't even contribute unless you block an attack is why it needs to have a large payoff. Otherwise the set is almost strictly for tanks who plan on taunting enemies and it's helping bring damage up in an obscure way that isn't exactly helping tanks either. In my mind the set would get that large payoff if it allowed crux from tentacular dread to buff it's damage, and it would be acting like a riposte build. Do damage with some other skills, hold onto 3 crux, wait to block an attack, riposte with tentacular dread. It's not even spammable either because it has a 2 second cooldown.

I think ZOS only keeps 10% of the sets in the game actually viable, that way they don't need to worry about as much balance. If a set slips through the cracks they'll neuter it. I'm trying to genuinely build craft and there are limitless roadblocks to making a good non-meta build.

I'm interested in trying to find out how to buff one skill's damage up with 2-3 other skills without a huge DPS loss or at least the benefit of having burst damage for PVP.

Urzigurumash · June 21

Yes that's why you probably will never find anyone besides me to talk to about this set. I assume hardly anyone even knows what it is.

IZZEFlameLash · June 21

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yes that's why you probably will never find anyone besides me to talk to about this set. I assume hardly anyone even knows what it is.

Well, there was a time this set was used for Take Flight bombing by a DC ballgroup. But, by that time, I was already an on and off player. So, never paid attention to what happened to the set except that ZOS 'changed' how it worked. The issue of inconsistent interaction likely to be stemming from that. Or... they did not tag the skills properly with appropriate tags to work with the set.

Gabriel_H · June 21

VoidParticle wrote: »

This set will proc damage on Tentacular Dread (arcanist) as it is a direct damage AOE, but will not grant 33% bonus damage per crux. This means the damage calculation is only adding Varen's after crux multiplies the base damage. However, whirlwind execute WILL multiply the damage of Varen's Legacy by the execute percentage. If neither did, I'd admit defeat and realize someone refuses to let the set have a multiplier, but it's just inconsistent. When I test further it seems Ufsild's Contingency with warrior's opportunity (2000 bonus damage) will not multiply either, but will multiply on execute skill bonus multiplier damage.

Your focus is off. It's not the set, it's the skill.

The damage from Crux consumption isn't a multiplier, it's additional damage. The tooltip on the skill makes it clear the Crux consumption is applied to the base damage.

Urzigurumash · June 21

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yes that's why you probably will never find anyone besides me to talk to about this set. I assume hardly anyone even knows what it is.

Well, there was a time this set was used for Take Flight bombing by a DC ballgroup. But, by that time, I was already an on and off player. So, never paid attention to what happened to the set except that ZOS 'changed' how it worked. The issue of inconsistent interaction likely to be stemming from that. Or... they did not tag the skills properly with appropriate tags to work with the set.

I'm Xbox NA but yeah I used to wear it OW for Take Flight, long ago. I remember I hit a 40k Leap in 2019 I think. It buffed lots of DK skills but TF was the best reason to wear it. Was also good on SapTank and BlazePlar way back before Blazing Shield was destroyed.

Up until the DK Rework it was still effective for the parlor trick with old Inhale which would heal you for the Bonus Damage. I actually tried it for 4v4 Domination in the last year and it wasn't half bad.

But it never worked on Proxy Det, Shalks, or Blastbones, which kind of made sense, or Impulse, which didn't make sense. It worked with old Flames of Oblivion for years, then it didn't.

Way back then and now, if you want to build with complicated damage procs, put in some work testing before you get too comfortable with your idea.

VoidParticle · 12:33AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Your focus is off. It's not the set, it's the skill.

The damage from Crux consumption isn't a multiplier, it's additional damage. The tooltip on the skill makes it clear the Crux consumption is applied to the base damage.

If that's true, these devs are crazy. You'd only know what 33% of a hit is if you multiply the base damage. You'd still need to use multiplication to find 33%, 66%, 99% from the corresponding crux consumed. If you "just add some damage" to the skill, how'd you figure out what 33% additional damage was? lol

VoidParticle · 12:49AM

I think I'm just upset how the devs can't give the community hard and fast rules so we're all on the same page. Give us a hotkey to push when hovering over skills that will show all the information we need. Come up with some unique identifiers so we can quickly know if a set will or will not work with a skill. Build the rules for how things interact AND KEEP THEM like a religious command. Otherwise it's just frustrating to deal with.

When I play games, I always have to find out how everything interacts. Games that can't keep consistent rules tend to annoy me to the point I don't play them, just because I feel I'm wasting my time. I've been theory crafting again because of the new update 50 class masteries. I might as well just throw some generic spell damage and crit set and forget about being creative. Of course I'm used to ARPG's like Path of Exile where builds are very very customizable and unique.

Urzigurumash · 1:12AM

Well it's part of the high skill ceiling in this game, the mysteries behind what works with what. You know the SCER in Discernment is etymologically related to skill.

Luneca · 2:10AM

VoidParticle wrote: »

I think I'm just upset how the devs can't give the community hard and fast rules so we're all on the same page. Give us a hotkey to push when hovering over skills that will show all the information we need. Come up with some unique identifiers so we can quickly know if a set will or will not work with a skill. Build the rules for how things interact AND KEEP THEM like a religious command. Otherwise it's just frustrating to deal with.

When I play games, I always have to find out how everything interacts. Games that can't keep consistent rules tend to annoy me to the point I don't play them, just because I feel I'm wasting my time. I've been theory crafting again because of the new update 50 class masteries. I might as well just throw some generic spell damage and crit set and forget about being creative. Of course I'm used to ARPG's like Path of Exile where builds are very very customizable and unique.

You'd be surprised how much more sets are "viable" than you hear thanks to how broken some interactions are. But that's precisely why in PvP I just fire siege.

Urzigurumash · 2:50AM

Luneca wrote: »

VoidParticle wrote: »

I think I'm just upset how the devs can't give the community hard and fast rules so we're all on the same page. Give us a hotkey to push when hovering over skills that will show all the information we need. Come up with some unique identifiers so we can quickly know if a set will or will not work with a skill. Build the rules for how things interact AND KEEP THEM like a religious command. Otherwise it's just frustrating to deal with.

When I play games, I always have to find out how everything interacts. Games that can't keep consistent rules tend to annoy me to the point I don't play them, just because I feel I'm wasting my time. I've been theory crafting again because of the new update 50 class masteries. I might as well just throw some generic spell damage and crit set and forget about being creative. Of course I'm used to ARPG's like Path of Exile where builds are very very customizable and unique.

You'd be surprised how much more sets are "viable" than you hear thanks to how broken some interactions are. But that's precisely why in PvP I just fire siege.

You know I never tried Varen's with Siege, good thinking! Many of them are AoE Direct Damage

Gabriel_H · 5:01AM

VoidParticle wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Your focus is off. It's not the set, it's the skill.

The damage from Crux consumption isn't a multiplier, it's additional damage. The tooltip on the skill makes it clear the Crux consumption is applied to the base damage.

If that's true, these devs are crazy. You'd only know what 33% of a hit is if you multiply the base damage. You'd still need to use multiplication to find 33%, 66%, 99% from the corresponding crux consumed. If you "just add some damage" to the skill, how'd you figure out what 33% additional damage was? lol

It's just an additional step in the damage formula.

Total Damage = (Base Damage x (1 + M1 + M2 + M3 + M4)) + (Base Damage x (C1 + C2 + C3))

(M being Multiplier, C being Crux Additional)