What a joke of a balance update patch

React · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way.

Anyone being objective about the game's balance should be coming to the conclusion that current WW is too strong. Same for the shattered paths signet and some of the builds it enables. That seems to be a huge problem for some people though.

Speaking as someone who mains a DK at tbe moment and does his own (extensive) testing, heart of flame is objectively overperforming after the u50 change. It was the best skill in the entire game before u50, but I was okay with it precisely because of the "reworked classes will be powercrept" context. Now that it heals you for 15% of your health every tick instead of 15% of your missing HP, it is the strongest HOT ability in the entire game on top of the infinite sustain, AOE burst, and interrupt it provides.

This patch I pushed my HP up to 37k, and in the right (cyrodiil) conditions, I've seen HOF heal me for 8k. It is objectively doing too much.

Chase0351 · June 18

React wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

You sound like you just don't think 1bar builds in general should be allowed to be viable.

In an environment where you are directly competing against other players, something with 50% of the mechanical complexity of everything else should not be producing similar, or in current ww's case, better results. It's as simple as that. One bar builds are fine as a simplified version of the game for people that want it, but they should not be outperforming two bar setups.

WW is dramatically outperforming everything that isn't a DK or a status sorc, and it is still edging out both of those specs at the highest levels on the "meta" builds. It has unparalleled survivability, great mobility, excellent sustain, and the highest DPS you can achieve. The dramatically reduced complexity of one bar means WAY less GCDs spent on buffing, and way more GCDs spent damaging or healing (or in rip and tear's case, both).

Something's gotta give.

This sums it up perfectly. There is no need for further rebuttal or argument. @zos needs to read this and take action. Furthermore, they need to stop releasing things that are out of balance since all it does is create turmoil within the community which leads to us fighting among each other. We’re all here for the love of the game so we shouldn’t be hating on each other because this is entirely the developers fault and they’ve done this nonsense since launch. It’s a toxic ritual they insist on repeating.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

React wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way.

Anyone being objective about the game's balance should be coming to the conclusion that current WW is too strong. Same for the shattered paths signet and some of the builds it enables. That seems to be a huge problem for some people though.

Speaking as someone who mains a DK at tbe moment and does his own (extensive) testing, heart of flame is objectively overperforming after the u50 change. It was the best skill in the entire game before u50, but I was okay with it precisely because of the "reworked classes will be powercrept" context. Now that it heals you for 15% of your health every tick instead of 15% of your missing HP, it is the strongest HOT ability in the entire game on top of the infinite sustain, AOE burst, and interrupt it provides.

This patch I pushed my HP up to 37k, and in the right (cyrodiil) conditions, I've seen HOF heal me for 8k. It is objectively doing too much.

I am thinking objectively, which is why I see this statement say that werewolves are outperforming everyone (imo they aren’t, dk is still in every PvP mode) and I think, now why wouldn’t I want hof being as strong as it is if this is the case.

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them:

If you’re saying you want all of these things nerfed together because they’re all too strong then fine I see your point of view but again I’d rather see where the class reworks go first before nerfs start flying.

Because objectively I’m thinking there’s no point nerfing anything yet when we know every class rework they introduce is gonna be stupid strong despite the pts participants commentary.

In a perfect world each rework would come with a balanced change but that’s not happening, mainly because the ceiling they’re going for, subclassing, is already unbalanced and they don’t wanna remove it entirely.

hoangdz · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

React wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way.

Anyone being objective about the game's balance should be coming to the conclusion that current WW is too strong. Same for the shattered paths signet and some of the builds it enables. That seems to be a huge problem for some people though.

Speaking as someone who mains a DK at tbe moment and does his own (extensive) testing, heart of flame is objectively overperforming after the u50 change. It was the best skill in the entire game before u50, but I was okay with it precisely because of the "reworked classes will be powercrept" context. Now that it heals you for 15% of your health every tick instead of 15% of your missing HP, it is the strongest HOT ability in the entire game on top of the infinite sustain, AOE burst, and interrupt it provides.

This patch I pushed my HP up to 37k, and in the right (cyrodiil) conditions, I've seen HOF heal me for 8k. It is objectively doing too much.

I am thinking objectively, which is why I see this statement say that werewolves are outperforming everyone (imo they aren’t, dk is still in every PvP mode) and I think, now why wouldn’t I want hof being as strong as it is if this is the case.

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them:

If you’re saying you want all of these things nerfed together because they’re all too strong then fine I see your point of view but again I’d rather see where the class reworks go first before nerfs start flying.

Because objectively I’m thinking there’s no point nerfing anything yet when we know every class rework they introduce is gonna be stupid strong despite the pts participants commentary.

In a perfect world each rework would come with a balanced change but that’s not happening, mainly because the ceiling they’re going for, subclassing, is already unbalanced and they don’t wanna remove it entirely.

You're not thinking objectively at all. You keep using the argument that "since you're killing bad players therefore it isn't broken", but that is not an objective stance. That is exactly why we have so many bad patches. I could kill the majority of subclassed players when subclassing was meta, yet it was objectively also broken. U49 and U50 are essentially identical. Like, if a group of Pelicans showed up instead of some average WWs, your DK group will absolutely be obliterated lol.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

React wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way.

Anyone being objective about the game's balance should be coming to the conclusion that current WW is too strong. Same for the shattered paths signet and some of the builds it enables. That seems to be a huge problem for some people though.

Speaking as someone who mains a DK at tbe moment and does his own (extensive) testing, heart of flame is objectively overperforming after the u50 change. It was the best skill in the entire game before u50, but I was okay with it precisely because of the "reworked classes will be powercrept" context. Now that it heals you for 15% of your health every tick instead of 15% of your missing HP, it is the strongest HOT ability in the entire game on top of the infinite sustain, AOE burst, and interrupt it provides.

This patch I pushed my HP up to 37k, and in the right (cyrodiil) conditions, I've seen HOF heal me for 8k. It is objectively doing too much.

I am thinking objectively, which is why I see this statement say that werewolves are outperforming everyone (imo they aren’t, dk is still in every PvP mode) and I think, now why wouldn’t I want hof being as strong as it is if this is the case.

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them:

If you’re saying you want all of these things nerfed together because they’re all too strong then fine I see your point of view but again I’d rather see where the class reworks go first before nerfs start flying.

Because objectively I’m thinking there’s no point nerfing anything yet when we know every class rework they introduce is gonna be stupid strong despite the pts participants commentary.

In a perfect world each rework would come with a balanced change but that’s not happening, mainly because the ceiling they’re going for, subclassing, is already unbalanced and they don’t wanna remove it entirely.

You're not thinking objectively at all. You keep using the argument that "since you're killing bad players therefore it isn't broken", but that is not an objective stance. That is exactly why we have so many bad patches. I could kill the majority of subclassed players when subclassing was meta, yet it was objectively also broken. U49 and U50 are essentially identical. Like, if a group of Pelicans showed up instead of some average WWs, your DK group will absolutely be obliterated lol.

And yet again here’s the flaw of your premise, there isn’t any group of pelicans, there’s just pelican and copycats, and the copycats I’ve fought and did just fine. For something to need a nerf imo it needs to be a widespread problem. Idk guess some of us adapt better, but if you ask me good players should be rewarded and be allowed to shine not have their builds nerfed every other cycle. I find it weird that’s even a thing tbh why would you want to be punished for being good and building better than others

Also “bad” players is very subjective, not being at the top 1% doesn’t make them bad and if anything, if they were so strong, werewolves etc, they’d be killing me despite being “bad”. I’m thinking objectively, I just disagree with your clique.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Again, if werewolves were nerfed below the level they are at now, who would even play them. You and I both know they’d go back to being totally irrelevant in PvP again like they have been for dang near covid times or more, and you’d only see them in open world pve. Maybe a dungeon.

Sorry boys I find that boring and lame as hell. Variety is good, they’ve been nerfing things for years and the game never got more balanced, just less interesting

BXR_Lonestar · June 18

Balance is going to be bad for a while guys. They've only released TWO reworks now - the Werewolf and the DK. It won't technically be "balanced" until they've done ALL the reworks and all classes have been updated - which is going not going to happen for two years.

And even when they're all out, things won't really be "balanced." It'll just be closer to balanced than it is now because all classes will have had their updates.

This is why what they've done to try to dial back subclassing was the worst way to do things. They should have just undone subclassing altogether and THEN looked at reworking the classes and releasing a global rework where all the classes are reworked at once. Even if it took some time to do, it'd be better than dripfeeding it this way.

React · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I am thinking objectively, which is why I see this statement say that werewolves are outperforming everyone (imo they aren’t, dk is still in every PvP mode) and I think, now why wouldn’t I want hof being as strong as it is if this is the case.

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them:

If you’re saying you want all of these things nerfed together because they’re all too strong then fine I see your point of view but again I’d rather see where the class reworks go first before nerfs start flying.

Because objectively I’m thinking there’s no point nerfing anything yet when we know every class rework they introduce is gonna be stupid strong despite the pts participants commentary.

In a perfect world each rework would come with a balanced change but that’s not happening, mainly because the ceiling they’re going for, subclassing, is already unbalanced and they don’t wanna remove it entirely.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and these two things happen to be over-performing for the exact same reason; health scaling heals.

This is the crux of the issue with WW and heart of flame. Health scaling heals (and wards) should not exist in PVP in any form. Literally every single historical example of a health scaling heal or shield you can find was problematic in the exact same way. Rip & tear and the burst heal, heart of flame, old polar wind, current scribing shields, reworked hardened ward, pre-nerf impervious runeward, pre-nerf crimson twilight, current blood magic w/conservation of energy, and the list goes on.

Before the current patch, HOF was still insane but it wasn't also the strongest heal over time in the entire game. You know what changed? They made it a health scaling heal instead of scaling on missing health. This should have never happened, the skill was fine before this recent buff.

When they nerf the shattered path signet, WW DPS will be reigned in to a reasonable level (if you can call it that, given it is a one bar build that will be matching the DPS of most two bar builds). But the issue still remains that they maximize their healing efficiency by building 45-50k HP. This is the part of WW that needs to be changed. It's fine for them to do competitive single target DPS if they're killable while doing it, because that is a reasonable trade off for the lack of AOE damage. It is not fine for them to do competitive single target DPS whilst being unkillable. Change the health scaling heals and this problem should be resolved.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Balance is going to be bad for a while guys. They've only released TWO reworks now - the Werewolf and the DK. It won't technically be "balanced" until they've done ALL the reworks and all classes have been updated - which is going not going to happen for two years.

And even when they're all out, things won't really be "balanced." It'll just be closer to balanced than it is now because all classes will have had their updates.

This is why what they've done to try to dial back subclassing was the worst way to do things. They should have just undone subclassing altogether and THEN looked at reworking the classes and releasing a global rework where all the classes are reworked at once. Even if it took some time to do, it'd be better than dripfeeding it this way.

Exactly what I’ve been saying, but people are impatient.

Vaqual · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Again, if werewolves were nerfed below the level they are at now, who would even play them. You and I both know they’d go back to being totally irrelevant in PvP again like they have been for dang near covid times or more, and you’d only see them in open world pve. Maybe a dungeon.

Sorry boys I find that boring and lame as hell. Variety is good, they’ve been nerfing things for years and the game never got more balanced, just less interesting

This is the same logic that is applied to all types of overpowered tools. This is what is creating this vicious cycle of balance breaking combat changes. "X has to be OP, because Y is, too".
If the Devs would have listened to the insightful feedback (throughout the last several years) about

1) Delayed burst lock outs with subclassing
2) Non-stacking class passives for crit damage / ult gen with subclassing
3) Adjustment of powercrept mythics
4) Reworking of the Crit Res system
5) Norm-shattering ability reworks, like HoF
6) Generally overpowered sets
7) Cross Healing
8) Mitigation stacking

then most of the current issues could have been nipped in the bud. There wouldn't be a need for WW to be grossly overtuned just to make it viable.
But for every blatantly overpowered problem, they found a more problematic answer. And somehow, the player base still finds a way to blame actually good and actionable player feedback for it.

Sure, the standard level of power we use to make assessments has been nearly fully eroded by now. Many older sets and many abilities have been made completely obsolete. At this point we might as well move to a new standard. But keeping up this pace, we will blow past the next threshold anyway. And this isn't without consequences. We are not just seeing standards shift, we see entire aspects of combat collapse. Sustain and passive heals are being handed out like candy.

I see your point about keeping WW viable. But the way this is being achieved is damaging way more things than it fixes.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Sustain was handed out when they introduced subclassing and everyone ran animal companion. Again that’s the standard, people basically had infinite resources well before the dk rework.

Vaqual · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Sustain was handed out when they introduced subclassing and everyone ran animal companion. Again that’s the standard, people basically had infinite resources well before the dk rework.

And that could have been fixed then and there.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Vaqual wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Sustain was handed out when they introduced subclassing and everyone ran animal companion. Again that’s the standard, people basically had infinite resources well before the dk rework.

And that could have been fixed then and there.

Sure, it could have. Wasn’t though and Zos refuses to delete anything from the game, so we get nerfs or power creep. We’ve had nerfs for years, and people complained about them for years. For one year I’d like to see the opposite, the games been more fun and interesting than it has been for a long time, all the returning players shows that also

s3dulo · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

React wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way.

Anyone being objective about the game's balance should be coming to the conclusion that current WW is too strong. Same for the shattered paths signet and some of the builds it enables. That seems to be a huge problem for some people though.

Speaking as someone who mains a DK at tbe moment and does his own (extensive) testing, heart of flame is objectively overperforming after the u50 change. It was the best skill in the entire game before u50, but I was okay with it precisely because of the "reworked classes will be powercrept" context. Now that it heals you for 15% of your health every tick instead of 15% of your missing HP, it is the strongest HOT ability in the entire game on top of the infinite sustain, AOE burst, and interrupt it provides.

This patch I pushed my HP up to 37k, and in the right (cyrodiil) conditions, I've seen HOF heal me for 8k. It is objectively doing too much.

I am thinking objectively, which is why I see this statement say that werewolves are outperforming everyone (imo they aren’t, dk is still in every PvP mode) and I think, now why wouldn’t I want hof being as strong as it is if this is the case.

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them:

If you’re saying you want all of these things nerfed together because they’re all too strong then fine I see your point of view but again I’d rather see where the class reworks go first before nerfs start flying.

Because objectively I’m thinking there’s no point nerfing anything yet when we know every class rework they introduce is gonna be stupid strong despite the pts participants commentary.

In a perfect world each rework would come with a balanced change but that’s not happening, mainly because the ceiling they’re going for, subclassing, is already unbalanced and they don’t wanna remove it entirely.

You're not thinking objectively at all. You keep using the argument that "since you're killing bad players therefore it isn't broken", but that is not an objective stance. That is exactly why we have so many bad patches. I could kill the majority of subclassed players when subclassing was meta, yet it was objectively also broken. U49 and U50 are essentially identical. Like, if a group of Pelicans showed up instead of some average WWs, your DK group will absolutely be obliterated lol.

And yet again here’s the flaw of your premise, there isn’t any group of pelicans, there’s just pelican and copycats, and the copycats I’ve fought and did just fine. For something to need a nerf imo it needs to be a widespread problem. Idk guess some of us adapt better, but if you ask me good players should be rewarded and be allowed to shine not have their builds nerfed every other cycle. I find it weird that’s even a thing tbh why would you want to be punished for being good and building better than others

Also “bad” players is very subjective, not being at the top 1% doesn’t make them bad and if anything, if they were so strong, werewolves etc, they’d be killing me despite being “bad”. I’m thinking objectively, I just disagree with your clique.

What matters is not how the average player is playing something, what matters is what the upper potential of that thing and the upper potential of WW is a notch above and beyond anything that ever existed in ESO. Sooner rather than later, most players will figure out the best way to build and play WW and that will be a wrap. WW is still new so you're beating players who simply haven't figured out how to build it yet. WW meta really only works on only 2 classes.

Yesterday I put together my own meta WW sorc build, because it's a bad idea to form opinions on things you haven't even tried, and it's just silly.

The key problem with werewolf is easy infinite sustain. The skills are so cheap and the buffs always on for free, that if you run it on a sorc, you can run Bewitch Sugar Skulls and armor pots with 64 points into health and all health armor glyphs and the Lord Mundus. In the end, you end up with +45k health, 30k resist with 100% major protection on top of extraordinary damage. The build I made has 7k weapon damage, infinite sustain, constant healing, and then 20k burst heals if I need it. The build isn't even properly min-maxed and it performs at an unprecedented level. The DPS potential is better than any non-WW build you could put together without sacrificing everything defensive.

If you ever fight a min-maxed WW run by a competent player, you will lose. Or you'll turn on the DK block mastery and just hold it while hammering HoF until they give up. But you won't beat them.

I was like you at first because the WWs i encountered weren't that hard to fight against. But once I dueled the meta, I understood. And then I made the build myself and now I really understand. It's overtuned and needs to be adjusted.

Stamicka · June 18

Yea I’m not a fan of this patch at all. There’s nothing I despise more in this game’s combat than rewarding players for doing almost nothing at all. This is why I have such a big problem with procs and status effects in PvP.

This patch has managed to allow the combination procs and status effects with extremely tanky high health werewolves which are low effort/skill high reward themselves.

I’m not surprised to see such a passionate defense of the current state of werewolves. When something is this easy and this strong it often makes players who normally don’t perform well in PvP feel like winners for the first time ever. They don’t want it taken away. In this case, the people who insist werewolf is balanced are a sign that it needs a big adjustment.

Apollosipod · June 18

It's going to be a long ride to 2028 when every one of these kinds of posts come with whatever was reworked last

BardokRedSnow · June 18

s3dulo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

React wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way.

Anyone being objective about the game's balance should be coming to the conclusion that current WW is too strong. Same for the shattered paths signet and some of the builds it enables. That seems to be a huge problem for some people though.

Speaking as someone who mains a DK at tbe moment and does his own (extensive) testing, heart of flame is objectively overperforming after the u50 change. It was the best skill in the entire game before u50, but I was okay with it precisely because of the "reworked classes will be powercrept" context. Now that it heals you for 15% of your health every tick instead of 15% of your missing HP, it is the strongest HOT ability in the entire game on top of the infinite sustain, AOE burst, and interrupt it provides.

This patch I pushed my HP up to 37k, and in the right (cyrodiil) conditions, I've seen HOF heal me for 8k. It is objectively doing too much.

I am thinking objectively, which is why I see this statement say that werewolves are outperforming everyone (imo they aren’t, dk is still in every PvP mode) and I think, now why wouldn’t I want hof being as strong as it is if this is the case.

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them:

If you’re saying you want all of these things nerfed together because they’re all too strong then fine I see your point of view but again I’d rather see where the class reworks go first before nerfs start flying.

Because objectively I’m thinking there’s no point nerfing anything yet when we know every class rework they introduce is gonna be stupid strong despite the pts participants commentary.

In a perfect world each rework would come with a balanced change but that’s not happening, mainly because the ceiling they’re going for, subclassing, is already unbalanced and they don’t wanna remove it entirely.

You're not thinking objectively at all. You keep using the argument that "since you're killing bad players therefore it isn't broken", but that is not an objective stance. That is exactly why we have so many bad patches. I could kill the majority of subclassed players when subclassing was meta, yet it was objectively also broken. U49 and U50 are essentially identical. Like, if a group of Pelicans showed up instead of some average WWs, your DK group will absolutely be obliterated lol.

And yet again here’s the flaw of your premise, there isn’t any group of pelicans, there’s just pelican and copycats, and the copycats I’ve fought and did just fine. For something to need a nerf imo it needs to be a widespread problem. Idk guess some of us adapt better, but if you ask me good players should be rewarded and be allowed to shine not have their builds nerfed every other cycle. I find it weird that’s even a thing tbh why would you want to be punished for being good and building better than others

Also “bad” players is very subjective, not being at the top 1% doesn’t make them bad and if anything, if they were so strong, werewolves etc, they’d be killing me despite being “bad”. I’m thinking objectively, I just disagree with your clique.

What matters is not how the average player is playing something, what matters is what the upper potential of that thing and the upper potential of WW is a notch above and beyond anything that ever existed in ESO. Sooner rather than later, most players will figure out the best way to build and play WW and that will be a wrap. WW is still new so you're beating players who simply haven't figured out how to build it yet. WW meta really only works on only 2 classes.

Yesterday I put together my own meta WW sorc build, because it's a bad idea to form opinions on things you haven't even tried, and it's just silly.

The key problem with werewolf is easy infinite sustain. The skills are so cheap and the buffs always on for free, that if you run it on a sorc, you can run Bewitch Sugar Skulls and armor pots with 64 points into health and all health armor glyphs and the Lord Mundus. In the end, you end up with +45k health, 30k resist with 100% major protection on top of extraordinary damage. The build I made has 7k weapon damage, infinite sustain, constant healing, and then 20k burst heals if I need it. The build isn't even properly min-maxed and it performs at an unprecedented level. The DPS potential is better than any non-WW build you could put together without sacrificing everything defensive.

If you ever fight a min-maxed WW run by a competent player, you will lose. Or you'll turn on the DK block mastery and just hold it while hammering HoF until they give up. But you won't beat them.

I was like you at first because the WWs i encountered weren't that hard to fight against. But once I dueled the meta, I understood. And then I made the build myself and now I really understand. It's overtuned and needs to be adjusted.

I fought a few of these who i could tell were running pelicans build, on my dk. Like I said before they just run away when I pop corrosive and I get corrosive fast. 1v1 they are strong yea but they have to roll around and move a lot. I can just sit in one spot and dps them down til they panic or someone comes and finishes them off, them running away isnt an issue. HoF blocking and building ult till you corrosive is a viable strategy, killed plenty doing just that.

Even in the case I do lose a 1v1 to them, what does that hurt. There's been many patches for instance where no one was touching sorcs 1v1. There's always those. My werewolf build is similar to yours, very, aside from being what I assume is a sorc, and I found that being a werewolf in group content gets you focused a lot and you need multiples to compete with other groups. Generally speaking picking off individual targets is easy, but crossheals are still stronger than what you have alone, and group focused damage is much higher than what you can do alone.

Duels is what theyre especially good at, everything else, its not a problem. Min maxed dk team with the same skill as a min maxed werewolf team is smoking the puppers. Thats why you see the youtubers in bgs have already gone back to pure dk and dk subclassed builds, I see less puppers in bgs every day.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Stamicka wrote: »

Yea I’m not a fan of this patch at all. There’s nothing I despise more in this game’s combat than rewarding players for doing almost nothing at all. This is why I have such a big problem with procs and status effects in PvP.

This patch has managed to allow the combination procs and status effects with extremely tanky high health werewolves which are low effort/skill high reward themselves.

I’m not surprised to see such a passionate defense of the current state of werewolves. When something is this easy and this strong it often makes players who normally don’t perform well in PvP feel like winners for the first time ever. They don’t want it taken away. In this case, the people who insist werewolf is balanced are a sign that it needs a big adjustment.

I dont even use my werewolf most of the time, am a DK main, I still think it shouldnt be nerfed, same with shattered paths signet on gankers. I never gank, unless you count using invis on someone with a dk brawler to surprise corrosive whip them lol.

Im not coming from that standpoint, Ive killed youtubers and streamers till they offline whisper me in my dms, and ive been killed by youtubers and streamers. Im not salty, no chip on my shoulder, nor do I crutch off the latest and greatest. I am a dk enthusiast, been playing it since beta when it was legendary and when it was trash. Even with subclassing I still kept my dk leaps at least.

I do not agree nerfs is the way to go, I'd rather see everyone have viable classes and playstyles than have a small group of people within an already small community dictate who is eating at any given time simply based on duels.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Now when I see a group of werewolves in cyrodiil farm people endlessly in a keep without the zerg getting them, I might change my tune. As it stands the only thing that needs to be nerfed across the board is shield stacking and heal stacking.

Would at least like to see someone actually 1vX with werewolf. I dont consider fearing and running around til you're zerged 1vXing and thats all I've seen from most of them, aside from picking off a few squishy pvers. Thats nothing new either.

hoangdz · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

React wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way.

Anyone being objective about the game's balance should be coming to the conclusion that current WW is too strong. Same for the shattered paths signet and some of the builds it enables. That seems to be a huge problem for some people though.

Speaking as someone who mains a DK at tbe moment and does his own (extensive) testing, heart of flame is objectively overperforming after the u50 change. It was the best skill in the entire game before u50, but I was okay with it precisely because of the "reworked classes will be powercrept" context. Now that it heals you for 15% of your health every tick instead of 15% of your missing HP, it is the strongest HOT ability in the entire game on top of the infinite sustain, AOE burst, and interrupt it provides.

This patch I pushed my HP up to 37k, and in the right (cyrodiil) conditions, I've seen HOF heal me for 8k. It is objectively doing too much.

I am thinking objectively, which is why I see this statement say that werewolves are outperforming everyone (imo they aren’t, dk is still in every PvP mode) and I think, now why wouldn’t I want hof being as strong as it is if this is the case.

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them:

If you’re saying you want all of these things nerfed together because they’re all too strong then fine I see your point of view but again I’d rather see where the class reworks go first before nerfs start flying.

Because objectively I’m thinking there’s no point nerfing anything yet when we know every class rework they introduce is gonna be stupid strong despite the pts participants commentary.

In a perfect world each rework would come with a balanced change but that’s not happening, mainly because the ceiling they’re going for, subclassing, is already unbalanced and they don’t wanna remove it entirely.

You're not thinking objectively at all. You keep using the argument that "since you're killing bad players therefore it isn't broken", but that is not an objective stance. That is exactly why we have so many bad patches. I could kill the majority of subclassed players when subclassing was meta, yet it was objectively also broken. U49 and U50 are essentially identical. Like, if a group of Pelicans showed up instead of some average WWs, your DK group will absolutely be obliterated lol.

And yet again here’s the flaw of your premise, there isn’t any group of pelicans, there’s just pelican and copycats, and the copycats I’ve fought and did just fine. For something to need a nerf imo it needs to be a widespread problem. Idk guess some of us adapt better, but if you ask me good players should be rewarded and be allowed to shine not have their builds nerfed every other cycle. I find it weird that’s even a thing tbh why would you want to be punished for being good and building better than others

Also “bad” players is very subjective, not being at the top 1% doesn’t make them bad and if anything, if they were so strong, werewolves etc, they’d be killing me despite being “bad”. I’m thinking objectively, I just disagree with your clique.

That is not a flaw of my premise. You are actually conflating a combat design failure with PvP skill gap. Yes, the majority of the playerbase will not perform as well on WW as someone like Pelican, but it DOES NOT need to be overpowered for every player to be an accepted issue. The toolkit of WW acts as a force multiplier, and while it may only increase the strength of an average player by 1x-2x, it is certainly amplifying the power of top tier players by at least 5x compared to other specs. That itself is a design failure.

When we look at the game from a combat design perspective we need to ask 2 questions:

1) When all else equals, is a spec/build performing significantly better than others?
2) When uncertainty is introduced, is it still performing at the same level?

In a 1v1 at equal skill level and on the best possible general PvP setup (not geared strictly for dueling), WW has been found to perform significantly better than a reworked DK. When other variables are introduced, such as an openworld PvP environment or an enclosed GvG battleground, WW has also been observed to perform significantly better than other specs.

Yes, the only specific scenario in which WW does not perform as well as a DK is large-scale PvP, which is what you have been using to argue. However, the problem with your premise is that you are using that single game mode as the defacto PvP mode for the entire game. No, it does not work like that. If WW is overperforming in 1v1s, BGs, 1vXing, and smallscale PvP, then that class HAS to get the nerf hammer to some parts of its toolkit.

Luneca · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Now when I see a group of werewolves in cyrodiil farm people endlessly in a keep without the zerg getting them, I might change my tune. As it stands the only thing that needs to be nerfed across the board is shield stacking and heal stacking.

Would at least like to see someone actually 1vX with werewolf. I dont consider fearing and running around til you're zerged 1vXing and thats all I've seen from most of them, aside from picking off a few squishy pvers. Thats nothing new either.

It's funny you say that shield and heal stacking need nerfing, when both are nothing without damage reduction -- which is a bigger issue in and of itself. Remember it was ZOS that decided to have shields inherit reduction and it was unpopular at first until players found out that it was much more powerful than the old shields that just resisted crit, but otherwise fell off like paper.

And what's funny is that you state that heal stacking and shielding is the problem, but here we're talking about werewolf which apparently needs none of that as long as it can reach enough damage reduction and stacked HP, while sustaining it.

You want one path that doesn't affect you nerfed, and not the other? Really?

Before ZOS nerfs any healing or shielding, they need to take a look at damage reduction. Having coldfire siege tick on people for 450 damage is a joke. Having people hold block and take 40-50 damage ticks is also a joke.

And it needs addressing because that in and of itself isn't balanced, and what will happen when heals and shields get nerfed without damage reduction being addressed first is that the guys barely taking damage now won't be affected because they don't need to stack heals -- they already over heal the damage being input.

What it will do is nerf the majority of Cyrodiil and other PvP modes that don't want to hold block, don't want to run a bunch of damage reduction, and don't want to stack a large amount of resistances. When that happens the META will shift even harder to tank-like builds yet again, and we will have people complaining about Elder Tanks Online again.

ZOS did nerf shields and heals in the past and what happened was that people just ran to damage reduction. ZOS refuses to address damage reduction and sources of it seriously, even though there's more damage reduction buffs than there are offensive ones. Especially unnamed. And they also have a higher uptime across the board.

That might be an intentional design decisions, but that decision is harming balance and we can see that not just with healing and shielding, but WW is also a prime example.

ZOS if you're reading please adjust damage reduction and things like riposte before you touch anything else. Because those have needed a nerf for a VERY long time in the game tbh. As long as someone's taking 50 damage from a glass build in PvP, then how much they are healing for doesn't matter.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Luneca wrote: »

You want one path that doesn't affect you nerfed, and not the other? Really?

Id argue that overhealing and overshielding affects way more people than some annoying werewolves. Werewolves dont make the game lag or bring pvp to a screeching halt like ballgroups do. It certainly affects more than just me.

Stamicka · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I do not agree nerfs is the way to go, I'd rather see everyone have viable classes and playstyles than have a small group of people within an already small community dictate who is eating at any given time simply based on duels.

Werewolf is the worst type of broken in ESO, so at the very least it needs changing. A lot of people here are arguing that DK is just as broken if not more broken as werewolf. They are different types of broken, but werewolf is the unacceptable kind.

I think that ESO PvP is most healthy when it is centered around burst. Players should be able to get 100-0 kills on others and they should be able to be 100-0 killed themselves. This is how the game originally was.

I actually think that DK is very well designed when it comes to PvP. It's a bit too strong relative to other classes, but it is at least a burst based class. Players usually have to be able to line up some combination of Incinerate, Heart of Flame, and a whip to get rewarded for a kill against a player with a build and some experience. Making petrify telegraphed and rollable was a great move too. There's quite a bit of counterplay against a DK. Blocking or rolling at the right times allows you to avoid getting bursted. From the DKs end there's a lot of ways for them to mix things up to still secure a kill as well. There's lots of opportunities for skill expression on both sides there.

The problem with DK is the values on skills and passives, not the design of the class itself. Heart of Flame shouldn't heal and the level of resource restore could be toned down a bit. Some other things about it could be toned down as well. DKs in damage builds can also usually be bursted, although this recent patch started rewarding DKs with high health pools which should be reverted. I have much less of a problem with DK, especially if other reworks bring classes up to its level.

Werewolf on the other hand is not really a burst class, nor can it be 100-0 bursted because most have over 40k health. It's one of those things where you just gradually tick down while fighting it. Blocking or rolling won't help all that much which means it just bypasses most counterplay.

I won't just single out werewolf either. The Vateshran staff, maarselok, relequen, masters duel wield, and status effects all contribute to these tick down metas. IMO tick down metas are the least fun to play in and the least skill based. They've appeared many times over the years, way back it was Durok's Bane builds, for awhile it was Jerall's builds... they all ruin the game and ZOS needs to stop allowing these metas to happen.

IMO werewolf should be reworked to have some burst and delayed burst. It should also stop rewarding ridiculously high health pools. I think it's possible to keep it viable and in line with a healthy burst meta without it being a representation of the worst parts of ESO PvP in one build. As a whole though, it's time for these mega tank tick down builds to stop.

Tommy_The_Gun · June 18

The thing is that high burst combined with delayed burst & players going more tanky is a vicious cycle where one is propelling the other.

The OG WW design (when game launched) was clearly a PvP oriented brawler type (a mix of damage dealer & tank). It had weaknesses like high healing cost, no CC removal tool (which meant that it was slow) and no access to purge (and those wekneses for the most part are still there). With later updates WW was kinda converted into PvE type with some DPS potential, but as soon as it became even close to being relevant it was nerfed with a sledge hammer. Same thing happened later on when Alessian Order set build became a thing. Even though it was only working in IC environment - WW was once again nerfed with a sledge hammer.

So for years WW was a meme. It was so bad at everything that it became funny. Before they added option to changed difficulty, quite literally, if you wanted content to be more challenging - you were playing WW.

So.. just one update later WW went from a meme-class, the worst spec in a game to a broken OP level ? Is that what happened ? Aside from Warden WW build (which I agree, that one particular build is busted) I am not really sure if most of those claims are from people who are simply still "attuned" to WW being a "free kill" (cuz for the most part, for a very long time it was the case).

Anyway, current situation looks dangerously similar to WW's past (a story of record sledge hammer nerfs). As soon as it became useful, month later it was a useless meme joke.

Major_Mangle · June 18

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The thing is that high burst combined with delayed burst & players going more tanky is a vicious cycle where one is propelling the other.

The OG WW design (when game launched) was clearly a PvP oriented brawler type (a mix of damage dealer & tank). It had weaknesses like high healing cost, no CC removal tool (which meant that it was slow) and no access to purge (and those wekneses for the most part are still there). With later updates WW was kinda converted into PvE type with some DPS potential, but as soon as it became even close to being relevant it was nerfed with a sledge hammer. Same thing happened later on when Alessian Order set build became a thing. Even though it was only working in IC environment - WW was once again nerfed with a sledge hammer.

So for years WW was a meme. It was so bad at everything that it became funny. Before they added option to changed difficulty, quite literally, if you wanted content to be more challenging - you were playing WW.

So.. just one update later WW went from a meme-class, the worst spec in a game to a broken OP level ? Is that what happened ? Aside from Warden WW build (which I agree, that one particular build is busted) I am not really sure if most of those claims are from people who are simply still "attuned" to WW being a "free kill" (cuz for the most part, for a very long time it was the case).

Anyway, current situation looks dangerously similar to WW's past (a story of record sledge hammer nerfs). As soon as it became useful, month later it was a useless meme joke.

Alessian WW was objectively overtuned in every single piece of PvP content there was not just IC (aside from maybe ballgrouping but using that as an argument is disingenuous af) . I could probably ask around and find clips of 2-3 man WW groups holding half an alliance hostage at a keep during the Alessian era. As someone who had the privilege to play with some of the most competent WW theorycrafters on PCEU at the time (Aznox, Rouder, Qbiken, Chrlynsch who´s PCNA just to name a few) , even they couldn´t defend how overtuned WW was during certain patches (Elsweyr, Murkmire, Wolfhunter, Dragon Bones and Markath patches are probably the most notorious patches where WW had some insane powerspikes). The current WW makes older WW metas look balanced in comparison. The common theme to previous WW metas is that once again they make WW too easy to survive and sustain (HP scaling survivability in PvP HAS NEVER BEEN HEALTHY FOR THE GAME!!!). If ZOS had actually listened to the feedback during last PTS instead of allowing a clearly overtuned spec to go live, we wouldn´t have this discussion.

Stamicka · June 18

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The thing is that high burst combined with delayed burst & players going more tanky is a vicious cycle where one is propelling the other.

This wasn't a problem back when not much was in the game to make yourself a tank without giving up your damage completely. Even then the tanks were killable.

nightbringer1993 · June 18

The game will just become more and more unplayable as those class refresh go, so therefore classes like necromancer, nightblade and arcanist will suffer greatly from this.

Necromancer is a destroyed class, and I don't understand why this paid class has not been remastered this year due to how destroyed it is.

Nightblade is currently still "strong" in pvp, but from what I have heard, the class lacks power in pve.

Arcanist is already very strong pve wise, but as those class refresh goes on, then the class will also become unplayable because other classes that got refreshed would have been made stronger.

Classes that are refreshed last will depend on subclassing to remain playable, but as the refresh cycle goes on, and the class masteries buffing pure classes, then people will be forced into other classes, the same way necromancers got forced into other classes with the removal of stalking blastbone and the corpses limitation system, and all the other nerfs that were placed on this class. I bet the beam build from arcanists will become dead as refreshes goes on, and maybe another strong build could be created for this class, but I doubt, and therefore this paid class might become unplayable too.

Right now I was forced to leave the game, and I remain on these forum to have the devs see reason and to refresh nerfed class first and make the already playable classes viable through the masteries, but necromancer will remain trash unfortunately, and therefore I will not be playing the game as a result.

Something the devs forgot, is that by forcing people out of the game due to class balance can make those players attached to other games and even if their class got refreshed, then those players might not come back to ESO because they got used to another game. I saw what happened to pvp when the DK refresh went live, and people left pvp, and that werewolf refresh apparently created the same effect.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Major_Mangle wrote: »

If ZOS had actually listened to the feedback during last PTS instead of allowing a clearly overtuned spec to go live, we wouldn´t have this discussion.

We also wouldnt have people using it a week later

Chase0351 · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them

Rolling bad players isn’t really a good sample of the population. You and your group obviously haven’t ran into any good ww’s or it would’ve been stalemate or your entire group got taken out one by one. The ww’s you took out aren’t 1vXing Zergs. Also, zerging down individuals with a coordinated group is also not a baseline for testing combat metrics in PvP specifically related class tuning.

I’m also curious if you don’t play ww why are you being so argumentative and in their favor? They were much more balanced last patch and if you watch streams from u49 you’ll notice in bg’s and cyro the ww howls in the background which tells you there was no shortage of them last patch but their power and capabilities were more balanced. All they needed to do was tune down dk and release the class mastery passives. The ww class really did not need to be buffed like it did because historically speaking when you look online you can find old forum posts throughout the years of players bringing up the fact that they’ve always been over tuned in relation to the other classes since WW has been around. Let’s keep this thread honest and not pretend like WW’s are not over tuned going forward please and thank you.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Chase0351 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If werewolf is the best at everything, which I again disagree on after my group folded so many of them in Cyrodiil and bgs, why on earth would you want to nerf things that can help deal with them

Rolling bad players isn’t really a good sample of the population. You and your group obviously haven’t ran into any good ww’s or it would’ve been stalemate or your entire group got taken out one by one. The ww’s you took out aren’t 1vXing Zergs. Also, zerging down individuals with a coordinated group is also not a baseline for testing combat metrics in PvP specifically related class tuning.

I’m also curious if you don’t play ww why are you being so argumentative and in their favor? They were much more balanced last patch and if you watch streams from u49 you’ll notice in bg’s and cyro the ww howls in the background which tells you there was no shortage of them last patch but their power and capabilities were more balanced. All they needed to do was tune down dk and release the class mastery passives. The ww class really did not need to be buffed like it did because historically speaking when you look online you can find old forum posts throughout the years of players bringing up the fact that they’ve always been over tuned in relation to the other classes since WW has been around. Let’s keep this thread honest and not pretend like WW’s are not over tuned going forward please and thank you.

because i know names and I have fought good ww players, and I think its silly people assume because i dont agree with yall that the players we fight in bgs or cyrodiil must be trash, and also coming from a dk main, im tired of people complaining about dk so much, so for me its beneficial to have others like werewolves and sorcs etc be competitive with DK, I'd rather that than once again being forced to subclass or just be tanky on DK. Its more fun when there is variety.

I played bgs in u49, there was rarely ever a werewolf, and the only time i died to one was experimental builds. I played bgs here also and aside from getting focused by yourself you're not dying to the werewolf alone unless you are squishy.

Apparently people build very differently than us Carried by StamDK types.