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Vengeance is awesome!
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Eldovar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some of yas really don't like that people are having fun in vengeance eh?
I'm not opposed to Blackreach coming back as a farm campaign. It was mostly PVD before and will likely still be so still. We could get hundreds of thousands of AP very easily there.
Yeah, it’s wild to see.
People still have their Grey Host, they got Blackreach back, some finally have their IC tel‑var cap dreams fulfilled, and now there’s a progression system for everyone.
Yet somehow a handful of players keep trashing Vengeance anyway and belittling the people who enjoy it or demanding faction locks, even though they’ve said a hundred times they won’t touch the mode themselves.
No idea why some folks get so aggressive about other people having fun in a mode they don’t even play, or why they keep repeating that it’s a “complete failure” when it clearly isn’t if some people have fun.
I like Vengeance too and after eight years in ESO, it’s the first time I’m actually enjoying PvP. I am halfway my Veterancy track.Edited by Eldovar on June 17, 2026 12:16PM4 -
BetweenMidgets✭✭✭✭✭I am very pleased for the folks that love Vengeance and are finally doing some sort of PVP!
PC-NA1 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.3 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.
Its really not though. Ravenwatch was a decent way to introduce people to PvP, it had some semblance of the real thing and got you used to what the actual game would be like. Vengeance doesnt prep you for building at all, you will be stuck in vengeance and a lost lamb even more than usual going from vengeance to greyhost.Edited by BardokRedSnow on June 17, 2026 1:14PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.
Its really not though. Ravenwatch was a decent way to introduce people to PvP, it had some semblance of the real thing and got you used to what the actual game would be like. Vengeance doesnt prep you for building at all, you will be stuck in vengeance and a lost lamb even more than usual going from vengeance to greyhost.
It's mostly about power gaps that are decoupled from raw skill, and those were bigger on any other campaign. What matters for a player starting out is the pace, the readability of what's going on, and constraints on what's available. All that is better in Vengeance.3 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pepegrillos wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.
Its really not though. Ravenwatch was a decent way to introduce people to PvP, it had some semblance of the real thing and got you used to what the actual game would be like. Vengeance doesnt prep you for building at all, you will be stuck in vengeance and a lost lamb even more than usual going from vengeance to greyhost.
It's mostly about power gaps that are decoupled from raw skill, and those were bigger on any other campaign. What matters for a player starting out is the pace, the readability of what's going on, and constraints on what's available. All that is better in Vengeance.
Alright well fair enough if thats what yall want and if thats what new players prefer.
To me though I see this and think, man this is gonna make the gap between vet players and new players way bigger over time but it is what it is.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
Pepegrillos✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.
Its really not though. Ravenwatch was a decent way to introduce people to PvP, it had some semblance of the real thing and got you used to what the actual game would be like. Vengeance doesnt prep you for building at all, you will be stuck in vengeance and a lost lamb even more than usual going from vengeance to greyhost.
It's mostly about power gaps that are decoupled from raw skill, and those were bigger on any other campaign. What matters for a player starting out is the pace, the readability of what's going on, and constraints on what's available. All that is better in Vengeance.
Alright well fair enough if thats what yall want and if thats what new players prefer.
To me though I see this and think, man this is gonna make the gap between vet players and new players way bigger over time but it is what it is.
I see it as a bridge that some new or casual players might eventually want to walk through, getting to the 'real' PvP in the end. If you just throw them into an environment where they get insta killed by a veteran in a second, without knowing how or why, the odds of them sticking around is close to 0. How many players want to spend months getting blasted (while improving) in a niche environment (PvP) of a decade old MMORPG? Probably not many.3 -
Eldovar✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.
Its really not though. Ravenwatch was a decent way to introduce people to PvP, it had some semblance of the real thing and got you used to what the actual game would be like. Vengeance doesnt prep you for building at all, you will be stuck in vengeance and a lost lamb even more than usual going from vengeance to greyhost.
It's mostly about power gaps that are decoupled from raw skill, and those were bigger on any other campaign. What matters for a player starting out is the pace, the readability of what's going on, and constraints on what's available. All that is better in Vengeance.
Alright well fair enough if thats what yall want and if thats what new players prefer.
To me though I see this and think, man this is gonna make the gap between vet players and new players way bigger over time but it is what it is.
That's not really a problem. Pretty sure most players will stay in their own PvP bubble anyway: Vengeance or GH. It's the same in PvE where scorepushing HM trifecta players and casual PUG trial people do their own thing and don't interact much in the game.
With overland difficulty there are also players advocating for separate bubbles based on difficulty as well.
The only place were the bubbles interact with eachother is in the forums, not the game
Edited by Eldovar on June 17, 2026 2:55PM1 -
ceruulean✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.
Its really not though. Ravenwatch was a decent way to introduce people to PvP, it had some semblance of the real thing and got you used to what the actual game would be like. Vengeance doesnt prep you for building at all, you will be stuck in vengeance and a lost lamb even more than usual going from vengeance to greyhost.
Lol live PvP is easy mode compared to Vengeance. On live, your self buffs last for 22-30 seconds like Major Resolve, you have a million scribing skills and every class gets a burst heal. On Vengeance, all buffs last a maximum of 20 seconds, DoTs are on a 6 or 5 second timer and must be refreshed constantly, sustain must be managed unless you play NB but even then you need to heavy attack occasionally. Winning a 1v2 or 1v3 is considered good, which only happens if the opponents literally don't have a self heal slotted and don't know how to block or LA attack weave. I guarantee that if you learn to kill people in Vengeance, you'll be fine in live PvP if you follow a flavor of the month meta build and use the live version of skills.
Meanwhile in live Cyrodiil, DK players press their leap > 3 stack whip combo to delete non-meta classes and believe they're good at the game. In BG the leap > whip combos are not as potent, but the streak dks, infinite sustain streak magsorcs, and unkillable WW are still annoying.Edited by ceruulean on June 17, 2026 3:10PM5 -
Unfadingsilence✭✭✭✭✭
✭Context: I play since 2014; over 3k hours on my main alone. I never did PvP.
I was ever afraid of PvP. All I kept hearing was how broken builds would demolish the fun of us, noobs. So I never did PvP (only exception is PvE quests from the Mayhem and collecting sky shards in Cyrodiil and IC).
Vengeance is my chance of trying PvP. Everybody is on the same level. I will have the same odds as everybody else.
And I'm loving it!
I specially love the build management and how easy everything is to start doing and to understand. (For instance, the potion is endless; You equip a type of weapon and you are good to go).
Plus: Veterancy is awesome. I really like the rewards. And the progression matches Vengeance so nicely!
I would also like to appreciate the team behind these systems (Vengeance and Veterancy). Wow. You put such a great effort into this. And the result is amazing. Things are very polished (
UI, UX, the overall feel...). Awesome work!
God you lost me at only 3k hours on your main.... haha jk jk its ok if you dont play the game alot 3k hours is ok for a new player I think im around 80k hours played now0 -
aetherix8✭✭✭✭✭I believe it is safe to say that Veng PC EU went well beyond just farming veterancy points. The score of all three factions is very close now, AD might soon overtake DC or EP (depending on the time of the day) as the highest score faction. As a DC myself I feel kind of conflicted, but must say: “Keep up the good work AD!”. Sure I would like to see DC win, but seeing 3 factions competing so close is simply the best thing. Unfortunately my ventilators died today so I can’t participate until next week. Back to reading books and some forum while waiting for my new hardware.PC EU - V4hn11 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭I believe it is safe to say that Veng PC EU went well beyond just farming veterancy points. The score of all three factions is very close now, AD might soon overtake DC or EP (depending on the time of the day) as the highest score faction. As a DC myself I feel kind of conflicted, but must say: “Keep up the good work AD!”. Sure I would like to see DC win, but seeing 3 factions competing so close is simply the best thing. Unfortunately my ventilators died today so I can’t participate until next week. Back to reading books and some forum while waiting for my new hardware.
Balancing the factions is one of the bigger hurdles to keep it fun. The defense ticks seem kind of lackluster too, we were holding off DC for like 20+mins and ended up with only a 8k d-tick.
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aetherix8✭✭✭✭✭I believe it is safe to say that Veng PC EU went well beyond just farming veterancy points. The score of all three factions is very close now, AD might soon overtake DC or EP (depending on the time of the day) as the highest score faction. As a DC myself I feel kind of conflicted, but must say: “Keep up the good work AD!”. Sure I would like to see DC win, but seeing 3 factions competing so close is simply the best thing. Unfortunately my ventilators died today so I can’t participate until next week. Back to reading books and some forum while waiting for my new hardware.
Balancing the factions is one of the bigger hurdles to keep it fun. The defense ticks seem kind of lackluster too, we were holding off DC for like 20+mins and ended up with only a 8k d-tick.
We haven't had a 3-1-1 bars situation so far, but if it happens, it would be disastrous and I still think that with 300 per faction, queues should be locked for a faction that has something like 50 more players than the 2nd most populated faction.
Also I agree most def ticks are not spectacular, but on Thursday we got 18k for defending Bleakers when what looked like the entire EP server showed up and opened a postern as well, and some AD joined later in the fight. But keep defense might give smaller ticks if all resources are taken.PC EU - V4hn11 -
Luneca✭✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Vengeance is a fail by every measure. And I will never touch it again. ZOS will fix Grey Host performance or I will find something else to do with my time and money.
They cannot fix GH performance without altering the ruleset. Be it Venegance or some other version of cut down HoTs, DoTs and procs. So what ruleset would you be happy with?
They cannot get the current version of GH to work. Nobody can. Every game that has tried battles on this scale have run into the same problem. They are forced to limit abilities in order to maintain performance.
ZOS are bringing in a medium sized map in the near future to allow for the kind of free-wheeling builds in GH but on a smaller scale, which will mean less of a performance loss.
Not true.
They fixed Grey Host performance with a single maintenance before Mayhem events, then degraded it back down with one maintenance for years to accommodate the Mayhem events. When they replaced the servers performance was better than it had ever been. So ZOS knows exactly what needs to be done to improve performance. They've done it too many times in the past to not know.
Repeating state media propaganda will never solve problems or motivate those not upholding their contractual agreements.
The "medium sized map" is another bait and switch distraction from doing their job of fixing Grey Host, something they swore up and down they've been doing for a decade but only managed to actually achieve during the above mentioned instances.
ZOS built it, they can fix it. They know exactly how but are choosing not to for some reason.
It's also not true because not everyone lags in Gray Host during prime time. During prime time in Gray Host on PC NA my ping is 20-50, never get disconnected, and I never lag even around ball groups.
On PC EU it's 70-110, but I still never get disconnected. 110 ping is way noticeable vs 20-50 in the game though. But I still have no issues using roll as my primary defense either way.
In Vegeance I actually have worse performance and higher ping at 50+ no matter what.
If Vengeance isn't offering a better connection experience, and it ultimately has nothing more to offer than that, then it's pointless for me to ever step into it. And I won't.
Queue too long on Gray Host? I'll play something else or read some medical and law journals. Both can be more entertaining that playing a game and staring at a wall. Wait, I read them even when I'm firing siege anyway.0 -
LalMirchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have no horse in this race as I despise the concept of Cyrodiil. To me it is just a vastly oversized riding simulation.
I have tried Vengeance & normal Cyrodiil a few times but my criticism still stands. My main pain point is that upon death you are forced to ride a very long way back to the objective. That , to me, is the most boring aspect. Massive battles & groups could be fun if one could just respawn very nearby.0 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have no horse in this race as I despise the concept of Cyrodiil. To me it is just a vastly oversized riding simulation.
I have tried Vengeance & normal Cyrodiil a few times but my criticism still stands. My main pain point is that upon death you are forced to ride a very long way back to the objective. That , to me, is the most boring aspect. Massive battles & groups could be fun if one could just respawn very nearby.
That's what camps are for. You're free to set one up almost wherever you want.0 -
aetherix8✭✭✭✭✭I have no horse in this race as I despise the concept of Cyrodiil. To me it is just a vastly oversized riding simulation.
I have tried Vengeance & normal Cyrodiil a few times but my criticism still stands. My main pain point is that upon death you are forced to ride a very long way back to the objective. That , to me, is the most boring aspect. Massive battles & groups could be fun if one could just respawn very nearby.
That's what camps are for. You're free to set one up almost wherever you want.
Talking about camps, I think they should work differently. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that I can only set one camp at any given time, but totally not OK that if I place one, then I cannot place another for like 20 minutes. Camps should be packable just like rams.PC EU - V4hn11 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Pepegrillos wrote: »Vengeance is a campaign for new players and casuals that want to jump in and out of Cyro without getting steamrolled by veterans. It's a decent way to ease some people into PvP.
Its really not though. Ravenwatch was a decent way to introduce people to PvP, it had some semblance of the real thing and got you used to what the actual game would be like. Vengeance doesnt prep you for building at all, you will be stuck in vengeance and a lost lamb even more than usual going from vengeance to greyhost.
A campaign for new and casual players doesnt have to be only an introduction to build pvp but can be fun on their own, even some players who know how to make builds rather play Vengeance than GreyHost.
GreyHost rarely even gives starters feedback if their input during combat is correct because a player with metabuild will kill a block healing starter almost as fast as one who doesnt.
In Vengeance if you make the better input in a duell you win and if you try GreyHost and get suddenly steamrolled you know it must be your build because your input during combat is fine.
Ravenwatch had same builds as Battlegrounds, differed from GreyHost only by missing CP and being empty and was barely better introduction than starting in GreyHost itself. You dont learn how to make builds by playing those campaigns but only get farmed. You only learn how to build by asking other players or googling for builds.
And many of these metaplayers will give starter bad advice. They claim gear doesnt matter and they outplayed the starter with skill and he has to learn how to play even when his input was better than theirs. Or they recommend trash build.
Majority of players who give GreyHost a try will not stay long enaugh to make a good build. They quit fast because they get steamrolled even with right input. And players trying Ravenwatch will get enaugh cp for Greyhost before they get good build.
If you want to prepare players for building than maybe you should give them better advice than to look at alcast while keeping your build secret. Alcast builds are so outdated they might be worse than pve builds and make players get 1vXed even when they are top pvpers normally.
But obviously you consider needing to heavily outnumber others in GreyHost to even have a chance as enaugh for other players (but not for yourself).PC EU3 -
JohnRingo✭✭✭Well, this has been an interesting discussion. This is my take assessment taking a step back here:
The OP states that in Vengeance, "everybody is on the same level" and thus we have presumably achieved PvP parity. This turned out to be the wrong requirement.
The real question was, will enough players choose to play in Vengeance and sacrifice personal build creativity, progression, and years of character investment in exchange for a more equalized PvP environment? The debate is largely academic at this point. Theory had its chance. Vengeance failed. It is clearly "not awesome" to most. Sorry OP, Grey Host has spoken.0 -
Eldovar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, this has been an interesting discussion. This is my take assessment taking a step back here:
The OP states that in Vengeance, "everybody is on the same level" and thus we have presumably achieved PvP parity. This turned out to be the wrong requirement.
The real question was, will enough players choose to play in Vengeance and sacrifice personal build creativity, progression, and years of character investment in exchange for a more equalized PvP environment? The debate is largely academic at this point. Theory had its chance. Vengeance failed. It is clearly "not awesome" to most. Sorry OP, Grey Host has spoken.
And who cares what is popular?
Some people like the card game, others do not. Some like trials, others do not. Some use companions, others loathe them. Some love subclassing, others are against it since day 1.
Both options are there now (and soon three) so everyone can pick what they prefer playing. No idea why people keep seeing this as some kind of battle or token of honour to see which mode 'wins'.
It doesn't matter in the end, because just with all the other stuff I listed, Vengeance will be here to stay whether some people like it or not. People keep being mad that there are options and people can choose their preferred mode.Edited by Eldovar on June 21, 2026 12:42PM4 -
LalMirchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have no horse in this race as I despise the concept of Cyrodiil. To me it is just a vastly oversized riding simulation.
I have tried Vengeance & normal Cyrodiil a few times but my criticism still stands. My main pain point is that upon death you are forced to ride a very long way back to the objective. That , to me, is the most boring aspect. Massive battles & groups could be fun if one could just respawn very nearby.
That's what camps are for. You're free to set one up almost wherever you want.
The camp mechanism is very clunky. I used to set up camps on every run but that got tiresome quickly.0