Guild Mail 3 Days in... Option to opt out please!

DenverRalphy · June 16

Thank you muphyx! You sir are a godsend. Thank you for this update!

decaffeinated · June 16

So, many of my guild members refuse to use Discord, and the MOTD has limited space. Sending a mail is the only way to reliably communicate to everyone.

But hey, if you "opt out" please don't complain when you get kicked from a guild because you didn't know about something important.

*shrug*

DenverRalphy · June 16

decaffeinated wrote: »

So, many of my guild members refuse to use Discord, and the MOTD has limited space. Sending a mail is the only way to reliably communicate to everyone.

But hey, if you "opt out" please don't complain when you get kicked from a guild because you didn't know about something important.

*shrug*

Guild mail came to exist only 8 days ago. I think I'll manage.

SilverBride · June 16

decaffeinated wrote: »

So, many of my guild members refuse to use Discord, and the MOTD has limited space. Sending a mail is the only way to reliably communicate to everyone.

But hey, if you "opt out" please don't complain when you get kicked from a guild because you didn't know about something important.

*shrug*

I'd just let those that refuse to use Discord miss out then. It's the best way to reach all members and if they don't care enough to keep in touch and miss out on things, that is on them.

I've been in my current guild 3 1/2 years and have never received a single guild mail from them. But our members know what is going on because it's all on our Discord.

hiyde · June 17

SilverBride wrote: »

decaffeinated wrote: »

So, many of my guild members refuse to use Discord, and the MOTD has limited space. Sending a mail is the only way to reliably communicate to everyone.

But hey, if you "opt out" please don't complain when you get kicked from a guild because you didn't know about something important.

*shrug*

I'd just let those that refuse to use Discord miss out then. It's the best way to reach all members and if they don't care enough to keep in touch and miss out on things, that is on them.

I've been in my current guild 3 1/2 years and have never received a single guild mail from them. But our members know what is going on because it's all on our Discord.

Except that it isn't. Not everyone uses Discord and a very large percentage of those that do use Discord tend to ignore server notifications because they are in numerous servers and it's overwhelming.

Of all the ways to communicate currently available, Guild Mail hands down has the highest chance of at least getting the subject line in front of the most people.

SilverBride · June 17

hiyde wrote: »

Of all the ways to communicate currently available, Guild Mail hands down has the highest chance of at least getting the subject line in front of the most people.

It also has the highest chance to irritate the most people.

hiyde · June 17

SilverBride wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

Of all the ways to communicate currently available, Guild Mail hands down has the highest chance of at least getting the subject line in front of the most people.

It also has the highest chance to irritate the most people.

And that's really sad that folks don't want to hear from the volunteers running their guild about what's happening in the guild, but, considering all the hireling mails, item sold mails and other system mails we all deal with, I don't think it's a significantly high percentage.

Also, Guild Mail has been around for more than a decade on PC via addons. I've seen no mass exodus or mass complaints about guild mail. Now guild officers don't have to stare at 500 mails being sent, one by one, and risk a social ban over rate limits.

I couldn't be more grateful to have a built-in tool for this.

Those who are annoyed by Guild Mails, should let their leadership know, or use the ultimate opt out: Drop the guild and replace it with one that communicates less.

SilverBride · June 17

hiyde wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

Of all the ways to communicate currently available, Guild Mail hands down has the highest chance of at least getting the subject line in front of the most people.

It also has the highest chance to irritate the most people.

And that's really sad that folks don't want to hear from the volunteers running their guild about what's happening in the guild...

But I do. That's why I check Discord a few times a day to keep up with any new announcements.

hiyde · June 17

SilverBride wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

Of all the ways to communicate currently available, Guild Mail hands down has the highest chance of at least getting the subject line in front of the most people.

It also has the highest chance to irritate the most people.

And that's really sad that folks don't want to hear from the volunteers running their guild about what's happening in the guild...

But I do. That's why I check Discord a few times a day to keep up with any new announcements.

I wasn't speaking about you specifically. I was speaking about overall trends / behavior.

SilverBride · June 17

hiyde wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

Of all the ways to communicate currently available, Guild Mail hands down has the highest chance of at least getting the subject line in front of the most people.

It also has the highest chance to irritate the most people.

And that's really sad that folks don't want to hear from the volunteers running their guild about what's happening in the guild...

But I do. That's why I check Discord a few times a day to keep up with any new announcements.

I wasn't speaking about you specifically. I was speaking about overall trends / behavior.

I know. I just figured others do what I do, too.

AScarlato · June 17

I agree it's best to find guilds that match your communication styles. I'm glad none of my guilds have been sending tons of mail and I'd leave a guild that sends lots of it and threatens removal if I don't read it.

Nordstern · June 17

Idk if it's glitched but the problem for me is that the same old guild mails will pop up again when I log again, even tho I already deleted them. If it's intended that way, it needs to be changed. Makes zero sense.

DragonRacer · June 17

As a donation-based trading guild GM, guild mail has been a wonderful addition to guild management options for me. I was a bit hesitant at first because I don't want to annoy people - and I am on PS NA, so a mass communication method as direct as guild mail is new to us. I do have a Discord server for us, but about half the guild straight up is against Discord in general. And the MOTD - while containing all necessary info and I try not to update it an obnoxious number of times - seems to be ignored by many to the point I have been tempted in the past to offer a million gold prize for finding a hidden out-of-place word in it just to see how many people bother to read it.

I have kept the mail limited and plan to continue to do so. So far I have sent three in total. The first was last Tuesday to announce which trader we had won for the week as a reminder to restock store listings, and also put a consolidated MOTD within that same mail as a weekly guild update reminding of our next auction, the current raffle, and the approaching housing contest deadline. Succinct, bullet points, to the point highlights of the big current happenings for us. That mail seemed to move about five more folks to buy raffle tickets who either had not done so recently or ever at all. The second mail was the day of auction reminding folks of the time it would start that night if they wished to attend. We had about ten more people actively at auction than we've been averaging lately. And the last mail was yesterday to, again, inform of trader bid win for the week and push the current raffle for extra fundraising anticipating Zeal of Zenithar starting next week. That generated four more raffle entries, two absolutely significant ones from folks who had not donated/participated monetarily in quite some time.

So far, it has had direct and measurable impacts on my guild in the names I am seeing responding to the guild mails (i.e. more than just the "usual suspects" who are very supportive and participate frequently) and the extra traffic at last week's auction. It is my hope that the occasional guild mail like this is less annoying than having to see me spam about the current raffle in guild text chat randomly throughout the day because of trying to catch people as they cycle online. One mail to every member means I don't have to spam text chat while they are trying to go about their business because either they have read the mail or deleted it, of which either option is perfectly fine. I have not received any complaints about the guild mail so far and nobody has left the guild since the update, so I presume I am balancing it well. I am quick to go in and delete mail as soon as it is no longer relevant (i.e. auction has now passed or a new trader week has begun).

Of the other four guilds I am in, only two have sent out mails so far - one was a general announcement (I presume to also test the system) and the other was quite literally a test to see what it did and was labeled as such. LOL

frogthroat · June 17

Y'all need the subtle art of not giving a f.

One of my addons messes up with my mails and I usually can't see any text in them. But I need the mail anyway just to receive items or send them, so I am not even going to check what addon it is that messes with the layout.

I just ignore them, like I ignore my Notifications. Notifications go away eventually if you don't look at them.

But even if they wouldn't go away, I would do like I do with my Discord messages I am too lazy to read: ignore them.

SilverBride · June 17

DragonRacer wrote: »

I have kept the mail limited and plan to continue to do so. So far I have sent three in total. The first was last Tuesday to announce which trader we had won for the week as a reminder to restock store listings...

I find it unnecessary for a guild to announce which trader was won because if we open the guild page it shows it right there. And members of a trade guild should already know to restock their listings.

I just feel that members should be more proactive to keep up to date with their guilds and shouldn't need all this mail that can be a real irritant to many.

Destai · June 17

SilverBride wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

I have kept the mail limited and plan to continue to do so. So far I have sent three in total. The first was last Tuesday to announce which trader we had won for the week as a reminder to restock store listings...

I find it unnecessary for a guild to announce which trader was won because if we open the guild page it shows it right there. And members of a trade guild should already know to restock their listings.

I just feel that members should be more proactive to keep up to date with their guilds and shouldn't need all this mail that can be a real irritant to many.

I actually agree with you here @SilverBride. There's a lot of communications that is overkill IMO.

I join a guild so I have people when I need them. I don't mind guilds where people actually talk in chat, asking for help, coordinate trials, whatever. But like when it's noise like reminders, overly excited announcements about the 28th raffle in a week, or things that could otherwise be static information - no thanks.

There's enough ads, reminders, and mailers in real life, I don't need it in a game. I'm sure some people are fine with it, they're not wrong, it's just personal preference. But literally one raffle mail and I'm leaving a guild. I left one last night. I'm sorry the guilds have engagement problems, but I don't think pestering people is going to solve that.

DenverRalphy · June 17

As I stated in my opening OP, I do see a need (or valid use) for the Guild Mail system.

Of course there are reasonable uses for it. That's not in question. However sometimes humans are fallible and sometimes make not so reasonable choices. Leading to the misuse of an otherwise useful service.

I'm not going to leave an otherwise high quality guild just because those at the top send out what I feel are too many fund-raising mailers. That would be a reckless/careless reaction. Instead I'm going to openly wish for a way to mitigate the issue so that I can avoid it when it happens.

And voila.. my wish was granted as someone else seemed to feel the same way, and was kind enough to produce a reasonable drama free solution.

Destai · June 17

DenverRalphy wrote: »

As I stated in my opening OP, I do see a need (or valid use) for the Guild Mail system.

Of course there are reasonable uses for it. That's not in question. However sometimes humans are fallible and sometimes make not so reasonable choices. Leading to the misuse of an otherwise useful service.

I'm not going to leave an otherwise high quality guild just because those at the top send out what I feel are too many fund-raising mailers. That would be a reckless/careless reaction. Instead I'm going to openly wish for a way to mitigate the issue so that I can avoid it when it happens.

And voila.. my wish was granted as someone else seemed to feel the same way, and was kind enough to produce a reasonable drama free solution.

This is just my experience, but when I respectfully brought up the raffle spam issue in one of my guilds, they got very hostile. Glad you had a better experience though.

DragonRacer · June 17

SilverBride wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

I have kept the mail limited and plan to continue to do so. So far I have sent three in total. The first was last Tuesday to announce which trader we had won for the week as a reminder to restock store listings...

I find it unnecessary for a guild to announce which trader was won because if we open the guild page it shows it right there. And members of a trade guild should already know to restock their listings.

I just feel that members should be more proactive to keep up to date with their guilds and shouldn't need all this mail that can be a real irritant to many.

These are all very logical assumptions to make. Yes, people *should* know these things already. Yes, people *should* pay attention to things and not require being spoonfed.

I've been a trading guild GM for roughly 7-8 years now and I can tell you from the kinds of questions I have been asked over those years, making these assumptions is not helpful because... reality simply doesn't play out that way. There are very much people, even supposedly experienced ones, who do not pay attention or forget or will ask things that are literally already answered at the very top of the MOTD.

Sadly, I find this in my daily job as well. It is a people problem. Some pay attention but many, many others do not and instead come to you asking things that *should* be obvious.

Soarora · June 17

I’m in two trade guilds and haven’t actually gotten any mail yet. Well, I have one guild mail but that’s from myself as now I can warn unranked members that if they don’t join discord, they’ll be kicked eventually.

SilverBride · June 17

DragonRacer wrote: »

These are all very logical assumptions to make. Yes, people *should* know these things already. Yes, people *should* pay attention to things and not require being spoonfed.

I've been a trading guild GM for roughly 7-8 years now and I can tell you from the kinds of questions I have been asked over those years, making these assumptions is not helpful because... reality simply doesn't play out that way. There are very much people, even supposedly experienced ones, who do not pay attention or forget or will ask things that are literally already answered at the very top of the MOTD.

Sadly, I find this in my daily job as well. It is a people problem. Some pay attention but many, many others do not and instead come to you asking things that *should* be obvious.

I agree it's a people problem. A lot of guild members are complacent and don't bother to keep up because they know someone will send them reminders. Just don't send reminders for routine things they should already know and if they miss out on things a few times maybe they will start paying more attention. If not then it's all on them.

katanagirl1 · June 18

hiyde wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

decaffeinated wrote: »

So, many of my guild members refuse to use Discord, and the MOTD has limited space. Sending a mail is the only way to reliably communicate to everyone.

But hey, if you "opt out" please don't complain when you get kicked from a guild because you didn't know about something important.

*shrug*

I'd just let those that refuse to use Discord miss out then. It's the best way to reach all members and if they don't care enough to keep in touch and miss out on things, that is on them.

I've been in my current guild 3 1/2 years and have never received a single guild mail from them. But our members know what is going on because it's all on our Discord.

Except that it isn't. Not everyone uses Discord and a very large percentage of those that do use Discord tend to ignore server notifications because they are in numerous servers and it's overwhelming.

Of all the ways to communicate currently available, Guild Mail hands down has the highest chance of at least getting the subject line in front of the most people.

I have a discord account but I only use it under duress, like signing up for trials. I don’t care to “hang out” there and chat with people, especially when I am playing and can chat on PS. I am certainly not going to push notifications to my phone for stuff on discord. If I am not playing, then I am doing something IRL and don’t want to be disturbed.

I’d much rather delete the occasional guild mail I get, like 2 per week.

SilverBride · June 18

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I have a discord account but I only use it under duress, like signing up for trials. I don’t care to “hang out” there and chat with people, especially when I am playing and can chat on PS. I am certainly not going to push notifications to my phone for stuff on discord. If I am not playing, then I am doing something IRL and don’t want to be disturbed.

That isn't how I use Discord at all. I don't hang out and chat with people. I don't have notifications sent to my phone. I don't keep Discord open for more than a minute to check for new posts on it.

We have a lot of channels that are similar to a forum. The GMs can leave announcements, and the lottery winners are announced there, and there are signups for the group activities the guilds run and for guild contests. Also requests for having gear crafted, advice for builds and our crown exchange.

I only see players in chat when the raid team is running or other similar group activities.

Everything I need to know is posted in Discord for us to see at our own leisure.

hiyde · June 18

SilverBride wrote: »

Everything I need to know is posted in Discord for us to see at our own leisure.

The point is that different people pay attention to different things. For every "I'd prefer everything be on Discord" person, there's a person that doesn't use Discord or ignores notifications. If you were the only member of my guild, I'd be happy to tailor communication to your exact preferences! But we're talking about 500 people who all engage in different ways.

First and foremost, Guilds should be able to effectively communicate activities *in* the game. Guild Mail is a terrific tool to have in the toolbox. Other platforms like Discord, Social Media, website, etc are also good to do.

I'm noticing some folks displaying quite a bit of animosity towards GMs & Officers trying to communicate with their guilds, ( I've also not seen one complaint from anyone getting carpet-bombed with overwhelming amounts of Guild Mail.)

GMs and Officers are unpaid volunteers who are donating their time to providing you a great guild and trying to use various tools to let people know what's going on with the guild and to deliver on whatever the guild has promised to it's members. An active Guild & Officer team should be treasured, not treated as an annoyance.

If a guild is sending you multiple raffle mails, it means *they are trying to pay for the bid* that won the kiosk you are selling on. They are trying to get as many people as possible to share the costs of it, instead of relying on a select few big contributors. That's a really good thing.

In exchange for the features the guild is providing, is it really that big of a deal to scan their mails for information that interests you and ignore if it doesn't? I am sad to see some of the responses here.

Also, not everyone is an E-Mail marketing expert. Give them some time to figure out best uses. Provide constructive feedback. If you truly cannot stomach Guild Mail, find a guild that communicates less (or make one!).

SilverBride · June 18

hiyde wrote: »

First and foremost, Guilds should be able to effectively communicate activities *in* the game.

That is fine for a single guild, but the guild I belong to is 1 of 3 sister guilds. Discord allows all 3 guilds to be informed at the same time, and to sign up for activities etc. together, regardless of which particular guild we are in. It brings us together as one community.

hiyde wrote: »

GMs and Officers are unpaid volunteers who are donating their time to providing you a great guild and trying to use various tools to let people know what's going on with the guild and to deliver on whatever the guild has promised to it's members. An active Guild & Officer team should be treasured, not treated as an annoyance.

I am well aware of this. I have been the GM of several guilds in different games throughout my gaming history. I also ran a social guild here right after launch.

I'm not saying that a guild should never send a guild mail, but it should not be a common occurrence.

DragonRacer · June 18

hiyde wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Everything I need to know is posted in Discord for us to see at our own leisure.

The point is that different people pay attention to different things. For every "I'd prefer everything be on Discord" person, there's a person that doesn't use Discord or ignores notifications. If you were the only member of my guild, I'd be happy to tailor communication to your exact preferences! But we're talking about 500 people who all engage in different ways.

First and foremost, Guilds should be able to effectively communicate activities *in* the game. Guild Mail is a terrific tool to have in the toolbox. Other platforms like Discord, Social Media, website, etc are also good to do.

I'm noticing some folks displaying quite a bit of animosity towards GMs & Officers trying to communicate with their guilds, ( I've also not seen one complaint from anyone getting carpet-bombed with overwhelming amounts of Guild Mail.)

GMs and Officers are unpaid volunteers who are donating their time to providing you a great guild and trying to use various tools to let people know what's going on with the guild and to deliver on whatever the guild has promised to it's members. An active Guild & Officer team should be treasured, not treated as an annoyance.

If a guild is sending you multiple raffle mails, it means *they are trying to pay for the bid* that won the kiosk you are selling on. They are trying to get as many people as possible to share the costs of it, instead of relying on a select few big contributors. That's a really good thing.

In exchange for the features the guild is providing, is it really that big of a deal to scan their mails for information that interests you and ignore if it doesn't? I am sad to see some of the responses here.

Also, not everyone is an E-Mail marketing expert. Give them some time to figure out best uses. Provide constructive feedback. If you truly cannot stomach Guild Mail, find a guild that communicates less (or make one!).

Yeah, to be honest the feedback here is very different from the positive feedback I have seen from my guild in-game so I’ve decided not to share anymore past this final post about the amazing response yesterday’s “pointless” mail post-trader bid win netted for our guild as we bulk up for Zeal of Zenithar bidding next week.

I feel like I’ll just have more poo flung at me for daring to use a new tool for guild management that so many GMs have been begging *years* for. Maybe it’s a more of a known annoyance for PC folks, who had add-ons to do this already (but risked automated social bans at times for using them).

But this is brand new for console, I feel I am not overusing it, my guild has not expressed any concerns about its current usage, and instead the response I am seeing from members who never donated before or participated only minimally before is honestly astounding me and giving me hope again (being a GM is a ton of thankless work and sometimes feels like you are screaming into a black hole trying to keep the wheels turning and a trader for 500 people to use without requiring sales minimums or weekly dues, in my case).

This is my last post on it, to register my happiness at the new feature and the positive effects it’s had from a GM standpoint. I’m choosing not to let the negative responses to my anecdotal sharing sway me from engaging with this new tool and instead focus on the feedback my own guild is giving me regarding it, which currently has been nothing but positive thus far.

hiyde · June 18

DragonRacer wrote: »

Yeah, to be honest the feedback here is very different from the positive feedback I have seen from my guild in-game so I’ve decided not to share anymore past this final post about the amazing response yesterday’s “pointless” mail post-trader bid win netted for our guild as we bulk up for Zeal of Zenithar bidding next week.

I feel like I’ll just have more poo flung at me for daring to use a new tool for guild management that so many GMs have been begging *years* for.

The feedback from your guild is what counts.

Also, don't let some of the behavior here silence you. Your voice is important. But yeah, it can be difficult seperating real opinion/feedback from those who are just here to be argumentative and discount any opinion that doesn't match theirs.

hiyde · June 18

SilverBride wrote: »

That is fine for a single guild, but the guild I belong to is 1 of 3 sister guilds. Discord allows all 3 guilds to be informed at the same time, and to sign up for activities etc. together, regardless of which particular guild we are in. It brings us together as one community.

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not saying that a guild should never send a guild mail, but it should not be a common occurrence.

I've run multiple guilds here since the beginning. I don't mind sending mail to both to keep them informed. We don't require Discord to be a member and never will, so we need to reach people wherever they are (including Discord)

In my professional life, I managed e-mail/social relationships with millions of people and learned a lot by monitoring opens/clicks/opt-out rates. The bottom line is frequent (within reason) communication is fine, as long it's *quality* communication / content your audience is interested in.

SilverBride · June 18

If sending a lot of guild mail works for some then that is fine for them. I personally would have to find a way to block it.

hiyde · June 18

SilverBride wrote: »

If sending a lot of guild mail works for some then that is fine for them.

Agreed!