What I predicted happened. The PvP mode in Vengeance is empty.

master_vanargand · June 16

Greyhost is a cheat simulator.
Ball groups can use anything to become invincible.
Ball groups use asynchronous tools.
Without them, players are affected by the high load placed on the server by ball groups.
Conversely, it can freeze most players who don't use asynchronous tools.
This is cheat.

xR3ACTORx · June 16

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greyhost is a cheat simulator.
Ball groups can use anything to become invincible.
Ball groups use asynchronous tools.
Without them, players are affected by the high load placed on the server by ball groups.
Conversely, it can freeze most players who don't use asynchronous tools.
This is cheat.

And now let's repeat the mantra.

Yadadadadada.

Guess some folks are just angry because they never get invited into groups.

sulima · June 16

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greyhost is a cheat simulator.
Ball groups can use anything to become invincible.
Ball groups use asynchronous tools.
Without them, players are affected by the high load placed on the server by ball groups.
Conversely, it can freeze most players who don't use asynchronous tools.
This is cheat.

The most frustrating part is that this is entirely a developer lack of will. ZOS does not need to resort to sterile, watered-down ghost towns like the Vengeance campaign to fix this. They could easily implement smart heal overwriting so identical spells stop stacking and instantly delete thousands of server calculations. They could optimize conditional proc checks to run on flat internal cooldowns instead of every single microsecond tick. They could even introduce severe area damage scaling that multiplies incoming damage based on how many players occupy the exact same coordinate link, forcing groups to split up or wipe.ZOS knows these fixes exist. Instead of fixing their core server math and combat code, they chose the lazy route of funneling everyone into a lag-choked Grey Host or offering a lobotomized template campaign. The lag is not an unfixable technical mystery. It is a design choice they choose to tolerate.

Lucasl402 · June 16

sulima wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greyhost is a cheat simulator.
Ball groups can use anything to become invincible.
Ball groups use asynchronous tools.
Without them, players are affected by the high load placed on the server by ball groups.
Conversely, it can freeze most players who don't use asynchronous tools.
This is cheat.

The most frustrating part is that this is entirely a developer lack of will. ZOS does not need to resort to sterile, watered-down ghost towns like the Vengeance campaign to fix this. They could easily implement smart heal overwriting so identical spells stop stacking and instantly delete thousands of server calculations. They could optimize conditional proc checks to run on flat internal cooldowns instead of every single microsecond tick. They could even introduce severe area damage scaling that multiplies incoming damage based on how many players occupy the exact same coordinate link, forcing groups to split up or wipe.ZOS knows these fixes exist. Instead of fixing their core server math and combat code, they chose the lazy route of funneling everyone into a lag-choked Grey Host or offering a lobotomized template campaign. The lag is not an unfixable technical mystery. It is a design choice they choose to tolerate.

ZOS built it, ZOS can fix it if they put in the effort. They just have to choose to do what they told us for a decade they were doing, working on improving performance in Cyrodiil.

Anyone who believes differently isn't aware of ZOS' history. They've fixed Cyrodiil performance in the past. It used to improve very noticeably for Midyear Mayhem events and people noticed big time. So the question became and remains, how was ZOS able to improve performance in Cyrodiil with a single maintenance. And how were they able to revert it back to horrible performance the first maintenance after Mayem event was over? When people started posting multiple times about this observation, ZOS decided to quit making whatever changes they were making to get this result. They also radically improved performance in Cyrodiil by replacing server hardware. So we know it's well within ZOS' ability to fix performance in Cyrodiil. The question is why they're choosing not to do so and instead making up this vengeance affront.

Poor performance in Grey Host is a choice ZOS makes. Not something beyond their ability to resolve. There still has been no effort to limit heal or shield stacking. Why not? This solution would limit calculations AND improve performance at the same time balancing ball groups against solos and more casual groups. Never once has ZOS told us what they're doing to improve performance in Grey Host, and repeatedly, disrespectfully, went with simply lowering access to the zone instead of making an effort to actually fix the problem.

@ZOS_Kevin

Does ZOS really think we are totally oblivious to what we've lived through as players who've been in game for 12 years now? Just do what ZOS has always said it was doing. That's all we're expecting. Nobody ever asked for vengeance, but at least the company named it appropriately I guess.

Vulkunne · June 16

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greyhost is a cheat simulator.
Ball groups can use anything to become invincible.
Ball groups use asynchronous tools.
Without them, players are affected by the high load placed on the server by ball groups.
Conversely, it can freeze most players who don't use asynchronous tools.
This is cheat.

And now let's repeat the mantra.

Yadadadadada.

Guess some folks are just angry because they never get invited into groups.

Computer group is not the same thing as a regular group of casuals or even veterans.

Furthermore, in all my years playing ESO I cannot think of one instance in which a ball group or exclusive Guild Group invited anyone else. In fact, I left a PvP Guild cause I was always having to leave the group to make room for either a Guild Officer or the GM. Which, I don't mind doing that once in a while but it became problematic and always on me, or other people like me who were there.

In fact, over time, I can provide numerous instances of ball groups promising to support Scroll/Hammer runs and blatantly lying or only supporting their friends; despite claiming they would provide the support itself. Vengeance is a symptom of a much larger issue. Instead of trying to 'wish Vengeance would go away' why not admit we have a problem in especially Cyropdiil PvP and fix the problem(s).

Vulkunne · June 16

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

Ok and and what about the exploits? Vengeance is not around because ZOS is trying to force everyone into a box. Vengeance is here because 'others' in the PvP scene are abusing group mechanics. Ball groups going on and on without dying, one time at Arrius we had at least 20 people on siege, about a quarter of them was coldifre and didn't leave a scratch.

You guys talk all high about progression and value proposition and all these colorful, wonderful terms but let me explain how it really be. What is the value in not even me, but casuals and even veterans getting cheated out of a fight? What proposition allows one group to endlessly and mindlessly wipe 2 factions on a server? Where is the value in that to those of us on the receiving end?

And the answer, there is none. Because it's not right what they're doing. The people making up these ball groups and even some PvP Guilds, they don't care about any of the things that you're talking about. And they prob hate me. Butr they don't care, they don't want a fair fight, they don't even want a fight, they want to win. They want to look good. They want to bring people down who are not part of 'their' little club.

And that's Vengeance is real. Its real. And I hope it stays for as long as it possibly can. Because understand, people are tied of not what you're saying, but the way things actually are. And what you're saying here sounds wonderful, all you guys who are making these same arguments sound great, but I have yet to see one of you address the severe lack of equity in PvP and horribly people are getting cheated and screwed over by these computer groups.

Until one of you steps out, comes down from your mountain and admits there's a probl;em I cannot take any of your arguments seriously. But now's the time... anyone else have a conscience? lol It's funny when people like me are left to be the voice of reason. That's how bad its gotten. I'm talking about actual reason, not just sounding 'smart' and using flowerdy words.

And my experience with Vengeance is it's really determined by skill. Not necessarily faction numbers. Unless you're saying those people in the numbers have no skill. Which I'd believe it. However, I remember my DK and a few with me, say no more than maybe 5 or 6 of us totally wiped out at least 4 times as many AD while the holding them back at the beach at Fare one night. So, no its not always about the numbers. Vengeance also encourages battle lines, which is something that's been part of warfare since warfare existed. Current PvP, there are no battles lines, only bombers which seems rather immature if you ask me. It's like a gotcha kind of thing, a grief-bomber kind of thing, instead of a medieval warfare kind of thing.

In fact, anytime ball groups and bombers come around, really PvP comes to an end. Ever seen an intense siege get completely cleaned out by a ball-group? I have. That's not PvP. I dunno what that is, but that's not what we're here for. You can all say what you like.

Sorry, no skill involved in vengeance. Only thing that matters in vengence is the size of the zerg. Vengeance is for the PvE mains. PvP mains won't touch it almost without exception.

Vengeance is the worst move ZOS has made since ESO was released to the public.

This has not been my experience. What you are seeing is the concept of battlelines put into practice. In Vengeance, battle lines are the rule not the exception. I understand how it must seem. But the reason you would never see this in regular Cyrodiil is because of the bombers or computer/exploit groups wipining everyone. It's a different kind of warfare, a more realistic approach to war. Which is no surprise some aren't fond of such things but that is what it is.

And I'm not being coy, I'm being real. I don't care if this whole world goes insane and everyone just mass logs in and collectively bows down to the very groups and bad actors who have themselves, because of their actions, albeit unintentionally (and perhaps unwillingly), brought Vengeance into being. Although people like me can and should also take credit for Vengeance. In fact, I'm one of the first to openly start pushing back against things like how weak overland difficulty 'used to be' as well as how computer/exploit groups were abusing people in Cyrodiil on a mass scale and very noticeable way.

I don't have to read it only, I was there among so many others who are tired of this. We're done with it. We're not done with ESO as ESO is still a great game and play/login every day. But many I know are happy ZOS has listened and is trying to provide a means to PvP without continuing to enable those who got us here to start with. Sometimes when we try to make things right, everyone is not going to like it, everyone is not going to want it. But all I know is, I would rather embrace a new possibility, something different, than sit here and look back and how bad things were. That's in my opinion, worse than having to deal with the exploit groups and that element to start with.

And so, I'll leave you with this...

I will not spend any more time worrying about what they think, how they can no longer hold us all hostage with their exploits and I am a free man. Not an AP slave. Not with them. Do as you will but don't hold me back or others of similar opinion. Furthermore, I would love to know, where were my 'betters' at when all this was going on? To some, I'm the villain. I'm the big bad. And I'm the one, talking about equity and fairness and trying to stop abuses in Cyrodiil at least and wanting a more immersive game. But where are the good people at? You, see? Where are they... where are the big mouths with big hearts when others needed them to be a voice for change? This was and still is a genuine righteous cause. But where were they? And the answer is they were silent. Silence protected their image, silence kept them from saying something that might 'offend' their friends. Silence was comfort and it is speaking up for what is right and is something people higher on the ladder of society than myself should have cried foul over, but they did nothing. So let them hide in their silence and but I have found peace and foundation from saying what needed to be said. I'll be silent in the glory I now possess but don't look to 'them' for help for they are not on your side or mine. Let them stay silent, let them remain that way now and let my actions prove vindication for myself, standing in both wealth and glory now having freed myself from their inconveniences, lies and hateful treatment that was returned for my former kindness and good effort no longer on their part and wanting nothing from them.

Vulkunne · June 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

Ok and and what about the exploits? Vengeance is not around because ZOS is trying to force everyone into a box. Vengeance is here because 'others' in the PvP scene are abusing group mechanics. Ball groups going on and on without dying, one time at Arrius we had at least 20 people on siege, about a quarter of them was coldifre and didn't leave a scratch.

You guys talk all high about progression and value proposition and all these colorful, wonderful terms but let me explain how it really be. What is the value in not even me, but casuals and even veterans getting cheated out of a fight? What proposition allows one group to endlessly and mindlessly wipe 2 factions on a server? Where is the value in that to those of us on the receiving end?

And the answer, there is none. Because it's not right what they're doing. The people making up these ball groups and even some PvP Guilds, they don't care about any of the things that you're talking about. And they prob hate me. Butr they don't care, they don't want a fair fight, they don't even want a fight, they want to win. They want to look good. They want to bring people down who are not part of 'their' little club.

And that's Vengeance is real. Its real. And I hope it stays for as long as it possibly can. Because understand, people are tied of not what you're saying, but the way things actually are. And what you're saying here sounds wonderful, all you guys who are making these same arguments sound great, but I have yet to see one of you address the severe lack of equity in PvP and horribly people are getting cheated and screwed over by these computer groups.

Until one of you steps out, comes down from your mountain and admits there's a probl;em I cannot take any of your arguments seriously. But now's the time... anyone else have a conscience? lol It's funny when people like me are left to be the voice of reason. That's how bad its gotten. I'm talking about actual reason, not just sounding 'smart' and using flowerdy words.

And my experience with Vengeance is it's really determined by skill. Not necessarily faction numbers. Unless you're saying those people in the numbers have no skill. Which I'd believe it. However, I remember my DK and a few with me, say no more than maybe 5 or 6 of us totally wiped out at least 4 times as many AD while the holding them back at the beach at Fare one night. So, no its not always about the numbers. Vengeance also encourages battle lines, which is something that's been part of warfare since warfare existed. Current PvP, there are no battles lines, only bombers which seems rather immature if you ask me. It's like a gotcha kind of thing, a grief-bomber kind of thing, instead of a medieval warfare kind of thing.

In fact, anytime ball groups and bombers come around, really PvP comes to an end. Ever seen an intense siege get completely cleaned out by a ball-group? I have. That's not PvP. I dunno what that is, but that's not what we're here for. You can all say what you like.

Cyrodiil is a war simulator, its not supposed to be about equity at all, which is why zos doesn't force you to play another faction to keep the numbers balanced etc... and thank Shor because Im not aiding cats and soft anuic elves. I barely deal with our dunmer and pet lizards lol.

Anyway, none of the stuff you're talkin about is valid here because the map is always determined by who is zerging it harder, and you can't even try to hold the more populated factions back by back sieging because siege is limited.

There's no counterplay, rule of law in vengeance is if you cant beat em, swap toons and join em.

Pass. I would rather zos increase greyhost's player count again and deal with the bad performance than help people in vengeance that couldnt take the heat in gh. The whole conversation around this is so annoying because it feels like zos pitted the community against one another by introducing something no one asked for rather than fix their game.

Ok it's a war simulator, we agree. But how is one group, whether that be like a ball group, or a computer/exploit group, wiping everyone, entire sieges during/off primetime, or a group of bombers switching off between two factions, harassing the same people sieging over and over again, with some of these same people promising support, then in reality running deception, leaving people in need to get stomped by AD, while their happy DC group literally sat and watched it happen... I mean... does this sound like war to you? hah

I'm just, what are we 'simulating' here? When I was in the military, honor wasn't something we just passively agreed on. And for some of what's been going on, this isn't war and isn't honorable. I'll let you decide for yourself.

fizzybeef · June 17

No worries, ZOS even reopening BR because people rather sit in queues then playing vengeance. So we are still safe of being forced to play that game mode

xR3ACTORx · June 17

Vulkunne wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greyhost is a cheat simulator.
Ball groups can use anything to become invincible.
Ball groups use asynchronous tools.
Without them, players are affected by the high load placed on the server by ball groups.
Conversely, it can freeze most players who don't use asynchronous tools.
This is cheat.

And now let's repeat the mantra.

Yadadadadada.

Guess some folks are just angry because they never get invited into groups.

Computer group is not the same thing as a regular group of casuals or even veterans.

Furthermore, in all my years playing ESO I cannot think of one instance in which a ball group or exclusive Guild Group invited anyone else. In fact, I left a PvP Guild cause I was always having to leave the group to make room for either a Guild Officer or the GM. Which, I don't mind doing that once in a while but it became problematic and always on me, or other people like me who were there.

In fact, over time, I can provide numerous instances of ball groups promising to support Scroll/Hammer runs and blatantly lying or only supporting their friends; despite claiming they would provide the support itself. Vengeance is a symptom of a much larger issue. Instead of trying to 'wish Vengeance would go away' why not admit we have a problem in especially Cyropdiil PvP and fix the problem(s).

OK. Got it . You never get invited to groups.

What's a "computer group"? If you mean that groups play with addons,then I can assure you we played in Ballgroups on consoles without any addons for years.

You wanna know how I found my guilds and ball groups? I was invited.

I also never had to leave a group because someone joining. But well that's your personal issue anyway and that is not representative for group behavior.

So thanks for proving my point. I think many of those complaints about ball groups result from hurted egos.

If Ballgroups don't have a place in Cyro then Zerglings don't either.

Since I noticed how your world view divided people into the good ones and and the bad ones I assume that you play on PCNA servers. They are known for being emotional.