What I predicted happened. The PvP mode in Vengeance is empty.

virtus753 · June 13

CAB_Life wrote: »

Just as an aside to this convo: Why are people assuming that the 3X the size population cap is true when world shards cap at 200 and I’m highly circumspect that ZOS has developed some new sharding tech given their, uh, display of past technical prowess? Feels like marketing buzz and PR gaslighting to obscure for unpopular decisions. Has anyone actually recorded a 450 vs 450 battle in any of the playtests, which would’ve seen the largest player counts? I believe Cyro caps at 150 per side? Or is it 200? I can’t recall.

ZOS said explicitly during testing that non-Vengeance Cyrodiil is capped at 360 (120 per faction). They said Vengeance is capped at 900 total (300 per faction), their original goal for Cyrodiil.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

The charts in the first post there are labeled with those figures.

The 900 cap for Vengeance was repeated in this news post, meaning they’re on record as formally advertising it that way to the public:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69939

So the “3x” is indeed rather generously rounded, probably from 2.5, thus suggesting ~20% more than what you’re actually getting. (They have rounded figures in other patch notes, regarding sets and whatnot, though 20% is bigger than I’m used to seeing.) But to show the 360 and 900 they’ve told us are not actually correct would take some proving, and claiming the 900 figure in particular is wrong with no evidence to support that would violate several forum rules (which is why you’re less likely to find such claims here on the official forums than on other platforms). Anecdotally, when Vengeance was full I saw fights there several times the size of even the largest I’d seen before Vengeance (going back to 2017). I did not line everyone up on my alliance for a specific headcount, admittedly.

I’ve never seen a 450 vs 450 fight, but I would expect not to see one with a population cap of 900 evenly divided among three factions. Even asking for close to 300 vs 300 is a lot, since what I saw in testing was that the larger caps allow for serious action to be spread across the map, at multiple major keep fights, rather than being concentrated at one or two battles with only some small engagements or PvDoor elsewhere. There are add-ons that can track the number of players around, and they may be more useful in showing approximately how many are a keep fight, but disproving the official figure of 900 is a tall order.

React · June 14

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

reazea · June 14

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

This is starting to feel like a kick to the crotch. There is no way ZOS didn't know this is what would happen. And if they didn't, that would be even worse than if they did. Triple digit queues during the week now. And if we don't log in before noon we don't get in now.

Vengeance is a fail. It's not the game we purchased and have supported for over a decade now. Vengeance is trash and shouldn't even be referred to as PvP.

What are queues going to be like when Night Market shuts down?

ESO seems like it's on life support now. The Night Market is just like a bigger version of IA with no new assets except the "games". And we haven't had any new zones, chapters or anything like that in almost 2 years now. So what is ZOS doing with all that money we've been giving them all these years anyway?

jirusan · June 14

On EU vengeance yesterday evening there were 2 bars for each faction and it was a lot of fun, there were fights everywhere.

Iriidius · June 14

L_Nici wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Just go into the game, press J -> Leaderboards -> PvP -> Current campaign if you are in vengeance or home campaign if for whatever rerason you actually play that. You can see the active number of players up to a maximum of 500 there and compare pure numbers instead of bars.

Not sure how it is now, but on Tuesday afternoon Vengeance had 199 active players, while GH had 500+ (the list maxed out there) after everyones home campaign got reset on monday. So those 199 and 500+ actively chose those campaigns to be their home.

Those numbers does not give any information on the number of players playing on a campaign at a specific time. It shows the number of people who have the respective campaign as home campaign!

I am using Miats addon which give you a desent estimate on the number of people in a combat. From what I have seen, the biggest fights so far on primetime PC/EU are quite similar.

Yes and played it actively, because you only get listet, if you made at least 1 AP in that campaign. Also usually people set the campaign as home, they play on. So if way less people are listed on Vengeance as their home campaign, less people play Vengeance.

Also on its own that is true, the list shows everyone who played since the beginning of the campaign (or in GH case since Monday, as the individual Leaderboard got reset), which actually makes it even sadder that Venegance didn't even reach 500 individual players, but together with the bars constantly only at 1 so 0-99 in Vengeance terms, you can pretty confidently say, Vengeance is dead.

This is not a fair comparision. Greyhost started on 1st June 7 days before Vengeance started on 08.06 giving GreyHost players 7 days more to join the ranklist than Vengeance players which was more than thrice as long when you made that comparision and is still twice as long.

While players who had a removed campaign set as home campaign have not set their home campaign after update and could choose either GreyHost or Vengeance for Free, Vengeance supporters who in absence of Vengeance set GreyHost as their home campaign can only change to Vengeance for free after this month ends. When they change now, they loose their progress and have to pay 100k ap for every character. When they choose to play another character that had not set GreyHost as home campaign and leave characters set to GreyHost set to GreyHost, they stay on GreyHost leaderboard.
It doesnt matter if you get your end of campaign reward from Vengeance or from GreyHost, so few players will pay 100k AP to change home campaign now.

sulima · June 14

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

SeaGtGruff · June 14

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

BardokRedSnow · June 14

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

Pretty irrelevant when the entire map is always nearly one single color. Lots of players doesnt matter when you're looking at 3-1 odds and the main way to progress is zerging. No counterplay at all.

When people say its empty they mean that its not competitive because most players are on one faction zerging down the rest.

Its only week one, people will get tired of that and the numbers will get even lower. Not being able to get a single bar on the weekend for controller ui, or two bars for pc ui is doa.

tldr the ratios matter, vengeance is blackreach minus everything that makes eso, eso.

amiiegee · June 14

Ofc this happened, i think a lot of us predicted it but some few people acted like vengeance is the new thing and zos rather listened to few noises who supported the path where they were on. people rather log off then playing Vengeance. I’m in two pvp guilds and nobody of us would step a feet in that number down game mode

Orbital78 · June 14

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

PC-NA has been fairly active, though lacking faction lock is an issue. It is impossible to get people into GH on the weekend so we have opt'd for Vengeance and had a good time. It is refreshing to not have the cheaters and broken carry sets.

Lokiator · June 14

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

Yeah, it was really slow the first few days after the update (at least for AD), but the past 3 days have been busy. There are usually three or more 12-player squads active and you have to fight defending players to get most keeps, as opposed to Player vs Door like it was earlier in the week.

I'd say there's at least 40-50 active players per side most of the time plus however many PVE players are roaming around. Probably more during peak hours. I saw a few battles yesterday that seemed like they had at least 30-40 players on each side, and there were multiple sieges going on at the same time. Yesterday was also the first time I completed a "kill 150 enemies" daily in under an hour.

So Vengeance isn't dead, but it's not quite up to the population levels of GH.

MRAW · June 15

sulima wrote: »

I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

Speaking for me, the enjoyment is mostly achievement hunting. I kill 500 goblins on vestige not because it would be “fun” but there is an achievement for it. I spent days to get the trophy hunter. I would conquer 50000 keeps because there are achievements with the alliance rank and the grind is high for the last levels. I also assume the achievement hunters are a much bigger group than the people who are real PvPers, and we enjoy that we can get alliance points without being ganked.

olsborg · June 15

I prefer Vengeance over the now normal laggy, ballgroupy meta-mess with unkillable builds and proccy gankers cyrodiil. I would prefer ravenwatch nocp/noprocc, but sadly that got deleted.

Blood_again · June 15

If the Vengeance is empty, then who are all those people who obstruct me from placing both my treb and ballista nearby?
It happens every second siege this weekend.

L_Nici · June 15

Iriidius wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Just go into the game, press J -> Leaderboards -> PvP -> Current campaign if you are in vengeance or home campaign if for whatever rerason you actually play that. You can see the active number of players up to a maximum of 500 there and compare pure numbers instead of bars.

Not sure how it is now, but on Tuesday afternoon Vengeance had 199 active players, while GH had 500+ (the list maxed out there) after everyones home campaign got reset on monday. So those 199 and 500+ actively chose those campaigns to be their home.

Those numbers does not give any information on the number of players playing on a campaign at a specific time. It shows the number of people who have the respective campaign as home campaign!

I am using Miats addon which give you a desent estimate on the number of people in a combat. From what I have seen, the biggest fights so far on primetime PC/EU are quite similar.

Yes and played it actively, because you only get listet, if you made at least 1 AP in that campaign. Also usually people set the campaign as home, they play on. So if way less people are listed on Vengeance as their home campaign, less people play Vengeance.

Also on its own that is true, the list shows everyone who played since the beginning of the campaign (or in GH case since Monday, as the individual Leaderboard got reset), which actually makes it even sadder that Venegance didn't even reach 500 individual players, but together with the bars constantly only at 1 so 0-99 in Vengeance terms, you can pretty confidently say, Vengeance is dead.

L_Nici wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Just go into the game, press J -> Leaderboards -> PvP -> Current campaign if you are in vengeance or home campaign if for whatever rerason you actually play that. You can see the active number of players up to a maximum of 500 there and compare pure numbers instead of bars.

Not sure how it is now, but on Tuesday afternoon Vengeance had 199 active players, while GH had 500+ (the list maxed out there) after everyones home campaign got reset on monday. So those 199 and 500+ actively chose those campaigns to be their home.

Those numbers does not give any information on the number of players playing on a campaign at a specific time. It shows the number of people who have the respective campaign as home campaign!

I am using Miats addon which give you a desent estimate on the number of people in a combat. From what I have seen, the biggest fights so far on primetime PC/EU are quite similar.

Yes and played it actively, because you only get listet, if you made at least 1 AP in that campaign. Also usually people set the campaign as home, they play on. So if way less people are listed on Vengeance as their home campaign, less people play Vengeance.

Also on its own that is true, the list shows everyone who played since the beginning of the campaign (or in GH case since Monday, as the individual Leaderboard got reset), which actually makes it even sadder that Venegance didn't even reach 500 individual players, but together with the bars constantly only at 1 so 0-99 in Vengeance terms, you can pretty confidently say, Vengeance is dead.

This is not a fair comparision. Greyhost started on 1st June 7 days before Vengeance started on 08.06 giving GreyHost players 7 days more to join the ranklist than Vengeance players which was more than thrice as long when you made that comparision and is still twice as long.

While players who had a removed campaign set as home campaign have not set their home campaign after update and could choose either GreyHost or Vengeance for Free, Vengeance supporters who in absence of Vengeance set GreyHost as their home campaign can only change to Vengeance for free after this month ends. When they change now, they loose their progress and have to pay 100k ap for every character. When they choose to play another character that had not set GreyHost as home campaign and leave characters set to GreyHost set to GreyHost, they stay on GreyHost leaderboard.
It doesnt matter if you get your end of campaign reward from Vengeance or from GreyHost, so few players will pay 100k AP to change home campaign now.

Why is everyone constantly not reading that all home campaigns and Grey Hosts individual player AP got reset on Monday...everyone had to chose new on Monday and lost all progress up that point in Grey Host. So it is indeed a fair comparison, while the alliance points are 7 days ahead, individual player points are not. If I would be place 23 overall across all three alliances with 290k AP after 7 days, I would be worried.

Vulkunne · June 15

sulima wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

Ok and and what about the exploits? Vengeance is not around because ZOS is trying to force everyone into a box. Vengeance is here because 'others' in the PvP scene are abusing group mechanics. Ball groups going on and on without dying, one time at Arrius we had at least 20 people on siege, about a quarter of them was coldifre and didn't leave a scratch.

You guys talk all high about progression and value proposition and all these colorful, wonderful terms but let me explain how it really be. What is the value in not even me, but casuals and even veterans getting cheated out of a fight? What proposition allows one group to endlessly and mindlessly wipe 2 factions on a server? Where is the value in that to those of us on the receiving end?

And the answer, there is none. Because it's not right what they're doing. The people making up these ball groups and even some PvP Guilds, they don't care about any of the things that you're talking about. And they prob hate me. Butr they don't care, they don't want a fair fight, they don't even want a fight, they want to win. They want to look good. They want to bring people down who are not part of 'their' little club.

And that's Vengeance is real. Its real. And I hope it stays for as long as it possibly can. Because understand, people are tied of not what you're saying, but the way things actually are. And what you're saying here sounds wonderful, all you guys who are making these same arguments sound great, but I have yet to see one of you address the severe lack of equity in PvP and horribly people are getting cheated and screwed over by these computer groups.

Until one of you steps out, comes down from your mountain and admits there's a probl;em I cannot take any of your arguments seriously. But now's the time... anyone else have a conscience? lol It's funny when people like me are left to be the voice of reason. That's how bad its gotten. I'm talking about actual reason, not just sounding 'smart' and using flowerdy words.

And my experience with Vengeance is it's really determined by skill. Not necessarily faction numbers. Unless you're saying those people in the numbers have no skill. Which I'd believe it. However, I remember my DK and a few with me, say no more than maybe 5 or 6 of us totally wiped out at least 4 times as many AD while the holding them back at the beach at Fare one night. So, no its not always about the numbers. Vengeance also encourages battle lines, which is something that's been part of warfare since warfare existed. Current PvP, there are no battles lines, only bombers which seems rather immature if you ask me. It's like a gotcha kind of thing, a grief-bomber kind of thing, instead of a medieval warfare kind of thing.

In fact, anytime ball groups and bombers come around, really PvP comes to an end. Ever seen an intense siege get completely cleaned out by a ball-group? I have. That's not PvP. I dunno what that is, but that's not what we're here for. You can all say what you like.

LadyGP · June 15

Melivar wrote: »

It's funny how so many people care that Vengeance is empty when there are so many new things that most of the people who will play that mode are trying out.

It's here to stay and will be as populated at times as the non grey host version so please just go back and wait in your que.

Narrator: "They are, in fact, waiting in their 2 - 3 hour queue".

SaffronCitrusflower · June 15

LadyGP wrote: »

Melivar wrote: »

It's funny how so many people care that Vengeance is empty when there are so many new things that most of the people who will play that mode are trying out.

It's here to stay and will be as populated at times as the non grey host version so please just go back and wait in your que.

Narrator: "They are, in fact, waiting in their 2 - 3 hour queue".

Or we just log off and do something else.

BardokRedSnow · June 15

Orbital78 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

PC-NA has been fairly active, though lacking faction lock is an issue. It is impossible to get people into GH on the weekend so we have opt'd for Vengeance and had a good time. It is refreshing to not have the cheaters and broken carry sets.

In greyhost a cheater is anyone thats better than you, just added context for the pvers.

BardokRedSnow · June 15

Vulkunne wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

Ok and and what about the exploits? Vengeance is not around because ZOS is trying to force everyone into a box. Vengeance is here because 'others' in the PvP scene are abusing group mechanics. Ball groups going on and on without dying, one time at Arrius we had at least 20 people on siege, about a quarter of them was coldifre and didn't leave a scratch.

You guys talk all high about progression and value proposition and all these colorful, wonderful terms but let me explain how it really be. What is the value in not even me, but casuals and even veterans getting cheated out of a fight? What proposition allows one group to endlessly and mindlessly wipe 2 factions on a server? Where is the value in that to those of us on the receiving end?

And the answer, there is none. Because it's not right what they're doing. The people making up these ball groups and even some PvP Guilds, they don't care about any of the things that you're talking about. And they prob hate me. Butr they don't care, they don't want a fair fight, they don't even want a fight, they want to win. They want to look good. They want to bring people down who are not part of 'their' little club.

And that's Vengeance is real. Its real. And I hope it stays for as long as it possibly can. Because understand, people are tied of not what you're saying, but the way things actually are. And what you're saying here sounds wonderful, all you guys who are making these same arguments sound great, but I have yet to see one of you address the severe lack of equity in PvP and horribly people are getting cheated and screwed over by these computer groups.

Until one of you steps out, comes down from your mountain and admits there's a probl;em I cannot take any of your arguments seriously. But now's the time... anyone else have a conscience? lol It's funny when people like me are left to be the voice of reason. That's how bad its gotten. I'm talking about actual reason, not just sounding 'smart' and using flowerdy words.

And my experience with Vengeance is it's really determined by skill. Not necessarily faction numbers. Unless you're saying those people in the numbers have no skill. Which I'd believe it. However, I remember my DK and a few with me, say no more than maybe 5 or 6 of us totally wiped out at least 4 times as many AD while the holding them back at the beach at Fare one night. So, no its not always about the numbers. Vengeance also encourages battle lines, which is something that's been part of warfare since warfare existed. Current PvP, there are no battles lines, only bombers which seems rather immature if you ask me. It's like a gotcha kind of thing, a grief-bomber kind of thing, instead of a medieval warfare kind of thing.

In fact, anytime ball groups and bombers come around, really PvP comes to an end. Ever seen an intense siege get completely cleaned out by a ball-group? I have. That's not PvP. I dunno what that is, but that's not what we're here for. You can all say what you like.

Cyrodiil is a war simulator, its not supposed to be about equity at all, which is why zos doesn't force you to play another faction to keep the numbers balanced etc... and thank Shor because Im not aiding cats and soft anuic elves. I barely deal with our dunmer and pet lizards lol.

Anyway, none of the stuff you're talkin about is valid here because the map is always determined by who is zerging it harder, and you can't even try to hold the more populated factions back by back sieging because siege is limited.

There's no counterplay, rule of law in vengeance is if you cant beat em, swap toons and join em.

Pass. I would rather zos increase greyhost's player count again and deal with the bad performance than help people in vengeance that couldnt take the heat in gh. The whole conversation around this is so annoying because it feels like zos pitted the community against one another by introducing something no one asked for rather than fix their game.

edward_frigidhands · June 15

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Out of curiosity, for all Vengeance enjoyers in the chat:
If ZOS had instead released Vengeance along with both Grey Host and Blackreach, would that have been bad?

Nice strawman you have there. A someone who is not a fan of Vengeance, but who tolerates it so that I don't have to put up with class imbalance, ball groups, rubber banding, disconnects, trying four times to open a postern door (and many many other problems), let me just say: I couldn't care less about the question. The issue isn't, and never has been, that other modes of Cyrodiil exist, it's that they do not work.

I haven't been in Cyro since the release of sub-classing. It was a terrible experience for a pure-class on top of an already terrible experience for both the class and the performance. So why would I care if those campaigns exist or not? I have no opinion on it. Nobody I know who loves/likes/tolerates Vengeance has an opinion on whether there are 1, 2 or 500 standard rule Cyro campaigns. We care the campaign we are in functions.

That isn't a straw man. He is asking a legitimate question.

ceruulean · June 15

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Out of curiosity, for all Vengeance enjoyers in the chat:
If ZOS had instead released Vengeance along with both Grey Host and Blackreach, would that have been bad?

Nice strawman you have there. A someone who is not a fan of Vengeance, but who tolerates it so that I don't have to put up with class imbalance, ball groups, rubber banding, disconnects, trying four times to open a postern door (and many many other problems), let me just say: I couldn't care less about the question. The issue isn't, and never has been, that other modes of Cyrodiil exist, it's that they do not work.

I haven't been in Cyro since the release of sub-classing. It was a terrible experience for a pure-class on top of an already terrible experience for both the class and the performance. So why would I care if those campaigns exist or not? I have no opinion on it. Nobody I know who loves/likes/tolerates Vengeance has an opinion on whether there are 1, 2 or 500 standard rule Cyro campaigns. We care the campaign we are in functions.

That isn't a straw man. He is asking a legitimate question.

Keeping Blackreach, Greyhost, and Vengeance as campaigns would be fine. It wouldn't be bad to give customers more options.

Now from a management perspective, I'd be wondering why we are keeping an expensive and nearly dead server alive. I would observe that Blackreach still has capacity for 100 more players, but 100 players are clogging up the queue system for GH instead, so why do we have BR when there's a 900-player campaign that could be filled?

SaffronCitrusflower · June 15

Vulkunne wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

Ok and and what about the exploits? Vengeance is not around because ZOS is trying to force everyone into a box. Vengeance is here because 'others' in the PvP scene are abusing group mechanics. Ball groups going on and on without dying, one time at Arrius we had at least 20 people on siege, about a quarter of them was coldifre and didn't leave a scratch.

You guys talk all high about progression and value proposition and all these colorful, wonderful terms but let me explain how it really be. What is the value in not even me, but casuals and even veterans getting cheated out of a fight? What proposition allows one group to endlessly and mindlessly wipe 2 factions on a server? Where is the value in that to those of us on the receiving end?

And the answer, there is none. Because it's not right what they're doing. The people making up these ball groups and even some PvP Guilds, they don't care about any of the things that you're talking about. And they prob hate me. Butr they don't care, they don't want a fair fight, they don't even want a fight, they want to win. They want to look good. They want to bring people down who are not part of 'their' little club.

And that's Vengeance is real. Its real. And I hope it stays for as long as it possibly can. Because understand, people are tied of not what you're saying, but the way things actually are. And what you're saying here sounds wonderful, all you guys who are making these same arguments sound great, but I have yet to see one of you address the severe lack of equity in PvP and horribly people are getting cheated and screwed over by these computer groups.

Until one of you steps out, comes down from your mountain and admits there's a probl;em I cannot take any of your arguments seriously. But now's the time... anyone else have a conscience? lol It's funny when people like me are left to be the voice of reason. That's how bad its gotten. I'm talking about actual reason, not just sounding 'smart' and using flowerdy words.

And my experience with Vengeance is it's really determined by skill. Not necessarily faction numbers. Unless you're saying those people in the numbers have no skill. Which I'd believe it. However, I remember my DK and a few with me, say no more than maybe 5 or 6 of us totally wiped out at least 4 times as many AD while the holding them back at the beach at Fare one night. So, no its not always about the numbers. Vengeance also encourages battle lines, which is something that's been part of warfare since warfare existed. Current PvP, there are no battles lines, only bombers which seems rather immature if you ask me. It's like a gotcha kind of thing, a grief-bomber kind of thing, instead of a medieval warfare kind of thing.

In fact, anytime ball groups and bombers come around, really PvP comes to an end. Ever seen an intense siege get completely cleaned out by a ball-group? I have. That's not PvP. I dunno what that is, but that's not what we're here for. You can all say what you like.

Sorry, no skill involved in vengeance. Only thing that matters in vengence is the size of the zerg. Vengeance is for the PvE mains. PvP mains won't touch it almost without exception.

Vengeance is the worst move ZOS has made since ESO was released to the public.

SaffronCitrusflower · June 15

ceruulean wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Out of curiosity, for all Vengeance enjoyers in the chat:
If ZOS had instead released Vengeance along with both Grey Host and Blackreach, would that have been bad?

Nice strawman you have there. A someone who is not a fan of Vengeance, but who tolerates it so that I don't have to put up with class imbalance, ball groups, rubber banding, disconnects, trying four times to open a postern door (and many many other problems), let me just say: I couldn't care less about the question. The issue isn't, and never has been, that other modes of Cyrodiil exist, it's that they do not work.

I haven't been in Cyro since the release of sub-classing. It was a terrible experience for a pure-class on top of an already terrible experience for both the class and the performance. So why would I care if those campaigns exist or not? I have no opinion on it. Nobody I know who loves/likes/tolerates Vengeance has an opinion on whether there are 1, 2 or 500 standard rule Cyro campaigns. We care the campaign we are in functions.

That isn't a straw man. He is asking a legitimate question.

Keeping Blackreach, Greyhost, and Vengeance as campaigns would be fine. It wouldn't be bad to give customers more options.

Now from a management perspective, I'd be wondering why we are keeping an expensive and nearly dead server alive. I would observe that Blackreach still has capacity for 100 more players, but 100 players are clogging up the queue system for GH instead, so why do we have BR when there's a 900-player campaign that could be filled?

Because PvP players despise vengeance. It was a lie that it was a test to learn how to improve performance in Grey Host. Everything about vengeance has been a betrayal of the PvP community. Most of us will never touch vengeance again just out of principle.

This is what I think of when I see posts supporting vengeance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIZoVO8ZyyQ

SeaGtGruff · June 15

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

Pretty irrelevant when the entire map is always nearly one single color. Lots of players doesnt matter when you're looking at 3-1 odds and the main way to progress is zerging. No counterplay at all.

When people say its empty they mean that its not competitive because most players are on one faction zerging down the rest.

Its only week one, people will get tired of that and the numbers will get even lower. Not being able to get a single bar on the weekend for controller ui, or two bars for pc ui is doa.

tldr the ratios matter, vengeance is blackreach minus everything that makes eso, eso.

So your argument is that people are using "empty" to mean "empty in spirit," or something like that, but then you end up by talking about population numbers again?

The map has not been mostly one color when I've played Vengeance. There are times when one faction has dominated, and times when a different faction has dominated, but except for certain times of the day or night when there are apparently many more players of one faction and too few players of other factions, the map has been pretty dynamic.

And that was always my experience in Grey Host, too-- sometimes one faction has the other two factions completely gated and have all six scrolls, and it isn't even possible to capture resources without them being quickly flipped back to whichever color has overwhelmed the entire map. I also saw that happening in Blackreach, although I rarely visited that campaign except when I couldn't get into Grey Host. It's going to happen in any campaign, including Vengeance.

But there are also lots of times in any campaign when the population balance between the factions isn't heavily skewed in favor of one particular faction, and there are dynamic battles going on in various portions of the map. Time of day seems to be a huge factor in this, with any of the campaigns I've ever played in.

Orbital78 · June 15

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

PC-NA has been fairly active, though lacking faction lock is an issue. It is impossible to get people into GH on the weekend so we have opt'd for Vengeance and had a good time. It is refreshing to not have the cheaters and broken carry sets.

In greyhost a cheater is anyone thats better than you, just added context for the pvers.

Har har, deflect all you want. I have personally witnessed the players using trainers or memory injection. Flying around on mounts and meshing though walls. Some have injected their defense stats so high that they actually cannot be killed. I witnessed some sus players in vengeance last night, but nothing blatant like flying and anti-collision.

SneaK · June 15

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Pass. I would rather zos increase greyhost's player count again and deal with the bad performance than help people in vengeance that couldnt take the heat in gh. The whole conversation around this is so annoying because it feels like zos pitted the community against one another by introducing something no one asked for rather than fix their game.

I believe this is the mindset of most PvPers.

Balance, then player count, then performance.

I have lagged out of PvE more than PvP this year. And even when it was at its worst I could remember back in 2020ish, I didn’t mind the game crashing cause we were having fun.

sulima · June 15

Vulkunne wrote: »

sulima wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

Ok and and what about the exploits? Vengeance is not around because ZOS is trying to force everyone into a box. Vengeance is here because 'others' in the PvP scene are abusing group mechanics. Ball groups going on and on without dying, one time at Arrius we had at least 20 people on siege, about a quarter of them was coldifre and didn't leave a scratch.

You guys talk all high about progression and value proposition and all these colorful, wonderful terms but let me explain how it really be. What is the value in not even me, but casuals and even veterans getting cheated out of a fight? What proposition allows one group to endlessly and mindlessly wipe 2 factions on a server? Where is the value in that to those of us on the receiving end?

And the answer, there is none. Because it's not right what they're doing. The people making up these ball groups and even some PvP Guilds, they don't care about any of the things that you're talking about. And they prob hate me. Butr they don't care, they don't want a fair fight, they don't even want a fight, they want to win. They want to look good. They want to bring people down who are not part of 'their' little club.

And that's Vengeance is real. Its real. And I hope it stays for as long as it possibly can. Because understand, people are tied of not what you're saying, but the way things actually are. And what you're saying here sounds wonderful, all you guys who are making these same arguments sound great, but I have yet to see one of you address the severe lack of equity in PvP and horribly people are getting cheated and screwed over by these computer groups.

Until one of you steps out, comes down from your mountain and admits there's a probl;em I cannot take any of your arguments seriously. But now's the time... anyone else have a conscience? lol It's funny when people like me are left to be the voice of reason. That's how bad its gotten. I'm talking about actual reason, not just sounding 'smart' and using flowerdy words.

And my experience with Vengeance is it's really determined by skill. Not necessarily faction numbers. Unless you're saying those people in the numbers have no skill. Which I'd believe it. However, I remember my DK and a few with me, say no more than maybe 5 or 6 of us totally wiped out at least 4 times as many AD while the holding them back at the beach at Fare one night. So, no its not always about the numbers. Vengeance also encourages battle lines, which is something that's been part of warfare since warfare existed. Current PvP, there are no battles lines, only bombers which seems rather immature if you ask me. It's like a gotcha kind of thing, a grief-bomber kind of thing, instead of a medieval warfare kind of thing.

In fact, anytime ball groups and bombers come around, really PvP comes to an end. Ever seen an intense siege get completely cleaned out by a ball-group? I have. That's not PvP. I dunno what that is, but that's not what we're here for. You can all say what you like.

The ongoing debate surrounding the Vengeance campaign highlights a deeper conflict regarding developer accountability in Cyrodiil. As I noted previously, removing horizontal progression and deep theorycrafting destroys the core endgame value proposition. Gear sets are a pivotal tool in a developer's arsenal, and discovering powerful combinations to break stalemates is the lifeblood of MMORPG PvP. In a war simulator, all is fair, and players cannot be blamed for optimizing to win. However, I have deep empathy for Vulkunne's response to my post. I have been at the receiving end of these organized group loops more times than I can count, and the sheer frustration of watching a hard-earned defense instantly erased by an unkillable group is completely draining. The issue arises because developers rely solely on itemization rather than structural map rules to manage the physical flow of the campaign. The introduction of Dark Convergence is a prime example. While intended to counter group stacking, it was weaponized by high-end groups and birthed an oppressive meta. To allow impactful gear sets and theorycrafting to thrive in the open field, developers must look to the physical environment to resolve structural bottlenecks inside keeps. What if we look at how the game already links map control to environmental win conditions at the Elder Scroll Artifact Gates, and apply that same structural logic to our home keeps? In Cyrodiil, Artifact Gates do not lock automatically. The lethal environmental barrier only activates when defenders expend the effort to recapture one of the two specific keeps tied to that gate. Once those keeps are secured, the gate locks, and the game triggers an absolute environmental hazard to declare a definitive end to that engagement. It is a map-driven mechanic that uses structure control to progress the campaign. We need a variation of that exact same structural mechanic applied directly to the vital tri-keeps.
What if, the moment a keep becomes unflagged after a successful defense, a 5-minute countdown begins? This creates a high-pressure, clear-cut objective window for both sides. The attacking force has exactly 5 minutes to launch an immediate, aggressive push to breach the inner door and reflag the keep. If their build synergy and coordination successfully breach that inner door before the timer runs out, the countdown halts, and the siege is officially back on. Meanwhile, the defending faction must actively hold the bottleneck and protect that inner door for the full 5 minutes to solidify their victory.
If the defenders successfully hold the line and the 5-minute timer hits zero, a localized Cleansing Pulse activates inside the inner structure, dealing massive true damage that ignores cross-healing to clear out any remaining trespassers.
To prevent an immediate, repetitive engagement after a successful defense, what if that protective environmental buff remains active on the inner walls for an additional 30 minutes? Enemy factions can still siege the outer walls, drop forward camps, and wage a coordinated battle in the outer courtyard. If they flag the outer wall, the Transitus line will correctly flag and shut down as intended, which is perfectly fair. However, they are mechanically barred from breaching the inner sanctum for half an hour.
This 30-minute lock gives defenders a meaningful, lasting victory. It stops the cycle of immediate re-sieging the second the main defense force leaves the inner structure. It forces accountability back onto the physical map rules rather than blaming player behavior, allowing the campaign to progress organically while still giving attackers a fair, high-stakes window to turn the tide.
Praise Iskra, the un-vengeful, for always keeping the faith. For the Queen and the Eagle, victory belongs to the Aldmeri Dominion.

Jeremy · June 16

sulima wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'll update this post again at 9PM EST and again at 10PM EST if I'm still on

PC NA, 6/13, 8PM EST Saturday. GH Pop locked with a queue of 90. Vengeance empty. This is probably a 2 hour long queue.

9PM EST, queue down to 41 from 90.

10PM EST, Queue down to 4 from 90. Over two hours to get into Grey Host. Vengeance empty the entire time.

The introduction of the Vengeance campaign highlights a fundamental disconnect between technical server health and actual player engagement. While reducing server latency is a valid goal, stripping away gear sets and theorycrafting removes the very core of what makes combat enjoyable. Without unique builds and mechanical variety, gameplay quickly becomes a repetitive war of attrition dominated entirely by faction numbers.My choice to unsubscribe isn't a retaliatory boycott; it is a straightforward consumer decision. An MMO requires a massive investment of time, and when the core systems that provide fun and horizontal progression are removed, the value proposition disappears. I simply do not get enjoyment from a standardized, homogenized combat loop, and it makes no financial sense to pay a monthly subscription for a game that no longer offers a fun endgame experience.

They always delete every cool build I came up with in PvP anyway, which just wastes my time and annoys me (I have quit the game in the past over it). So honestly I don't mind and like the idea of Vengeance. Unique builds and gameplay are meaningless if they are just going to delete them every time a player comes up with something good (which is exactly what they do in my experience).

So I'd rather have a more stable foundation for PvP where I'm not constantly worried my build and all my time and effort I put into it are just going to be vaporized because some PvPers are upset they can't instantly kill me.

BardokRedSnow · June 16

Orbital78 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

PC-NA has been fairly active, though lacking faction lock is an issue. It is impossible to get people into GH on the weekend so we have opt'd for Vengeance and had a good time. It is refreshing to not have the cheaters and broken carry sets.

In greyhost a cheater is anyone thats better than you, just added context for the pvers.

Har har, deflect all you want. I have personally witnessed the players using trainers or memory injection. Flying around on mounts and meshing though walls. Some have injected their defense stats so high that they actually cannot be killed. I witnessed some sus players in vengeance last night, but nothing blatant like flying and anti-collision.

I too saw something sus once, thought I saw a ufo fly past me when i was recording the night sky. Turns out it was just a dragonfly.

For every legitimate case of cheating in this game there's hundreds if not thousands of non legitimate cases. Its not even worth mentioning, especially when ep was calling me a cheater for climbing the gates and killing them up there when theyre destroyed and dc was calling me a cheater for sieging glade from the rocks and farming them too lol.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Whenever I've gone into Vengeance while a given faction has just 1 bar, I've encountered large groups of players from that faction-- it hasn't been "empty" at all.

Pretty irrelevant when the entire map is always nearly one single color. Lots of players doesnt matter when you're looking at 3-1 odds and the main way to progress is zerging. No counterplay at all.

When people say its empty they mean that its not competitive because most players are on one faction zerging down the rest.

Its only week one, people will get tired of that and the numbers will get even lower. Not being able to get a single bar on the weekend for controller ui, or two bars for pc ui is doa.

tldr the ratios matter, vengeance is blackreach minus everything that makes eso, eso.

So your argument is that people are using "empty" to mean "empty in spirit," or something like that, but then you end up by talking about population numbers again?

The map has not been mostly one color when I've played Vengeance.

Think my arguments pretty clear- its a zergfest. When 80 percent of the population is on one faction because they know its an easy way to get ap, xp for veterency mode etc, it may as well be empty. Its "virtually" empty if you wanna be technical. This is exactly how ravenwatch and blackreach were also. There's always players there to take keeps back n forth but if you actually wanna fight people not walls, yea its empty. Your cut of cyrodiil is empty, minus all the zerglings coming for ya.

Its been like this in vengeance since the second test. At first they made the excuse that it was the pve events but those passed and nothing changed. After the novelty of vengeance wore off and it did the damage it did, making a lot of players quit and not return... it never saw more than a bar on controller ui filled. And more importantly it never saw even ratios or even close to even. It never will until zos at least faction locks the place.

So be coy if you like but the threads, the reddit posts and youtube videos stating it is so wont cease because of a wordy forum post denying reality.