Stamicka wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

if ZOS can't fix normal Grey Host performance, then they don't have the capacity to create a whole new system from scratch either. How are people not seeing this?

This doesn't follow though. You're basically arguing that "They can't fix what exists, so they can't create something new", but that doesn't make sense. If you create something and then over time you completely break it till it's no longer usable, how does that mean that you can't create it again? The fresh start gives you a chance to not repeat the same mistakes that caused the gradual breaking last time.

So I'll quote this:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Test Learnings
Throughout the first three tests, we learned with certainty that in order to deliver a performant Cyrodiil, to support a large-scale PvP zone with mass-scale battles, the abilities, procs, passives, etc. must be lighter versions of the ones that exist in the rest of the game.

The set of four graphs below illustrate the differences in population as well as the server frames per second between the Vengeance Cyrodiil campaign and non-Vengeance Cyrodiil campaigns. (On the left of each graph is the non-Vengeance campaigns and on the right are the Vengeance campaigns, on the PC EU and PC NA servers.)



...

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

This makes it clear that the paragraph long Proc Sets, conditional CP passives, status effects, and all the other bloat that they've added over the years has created a scenario where Cyrodiil cannot perform well at scale.

They tried the obvious solution which is removing all the bloat and it worked. They told us that we can't have both scale and all the stuff that makes up normal PvP right now.

That's a big problem. Grey Host population caps are very low which makes the size of Cyrodiil both unjustified and bad for actual PvP. There's not enough action around the map anymore to make it as fun as it used to be. If you like actual PvP under the current rules, I don't understand why you would be attached to the current Cyrodiil map. It is not good for encountering other players considering the current population caps.

A smaller map without stripping the game down to Vengeance levels makes a lot of sense to give people what they want. If they removed Grey Host in favor of that smaller map (but kept current balance), I actually think that would be fair. I don't think ZOS is committed to keeping the Vengeance ruleset, I think that they are seeing that Cyrodiil is too large and a smaller replacement would make sense.

With that being said, there's still an issue. The bloat that makes the game lag also makes the game suck. In my opinion this is a more serious issue because it is causing players to quit the game. It also means that whenever ZOS tries to release new PvP content, it won't be very popular and it will die out because the underlying combat is not good.

This why I'm such a big advocate for keeping Vengeance because it presents a better opportunity if done right. They can keep the original Cyrodiil map (which is great), improve population caps, and improve balance by building on Vengeance.

In my opinion they should be gradually adding more to Vengeance until they reach the right balance of population caps vs complexity. I think they should keep CP, procs, and status effects out. But they should introduce a variety of straightforward pure stat based sets, passives that aren't super conditional and computation intensive, more complex skills, and a removal of the AOE cap. I would bet that they could get all of that stuff in and they could still have higher population caps than Grey Host does and better balance on top of that. PvE balance wouldn't matter at all cause it's a different set of skills. The game would be similar to as it was Pre One Tamriel when PvP was way more popular.

Instead you guys just want to get Vengeance scrapped which would be a big missed opportunity. They can introduce this new smaller zone if they want, but performance is only half of the story for PvP's death, balance is the other. Under the current balance, PvP is in a death spiral. It's too inaccessible for new players and too cheesy for the vets. So people quit, but almost no one replaces them or comes back. I don't understand why people don't get this.

Stamicka wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Love how we are just casually suggesting the smaller map is a viable replacement for normal Cyrodiil, a few comments after you state “I don’t think GH is on the chopping block.” Oh you think that would be “fair”. Sorry, but this is the most asinine back and forth from a so called non white knight non vengeance enjoyer.

What I think is fair has nothing to do with whether or not Grey Host is on the chopping block. I'm not ZOS lol... I can't get rid of it and I don't think they're ready to either.

I don't think what I said was that crazy tbh. I would also tell you that Imperial City is better for pure PvP than Cyrodiil is because Imperial City is smaller (at least the upstairs part). Problem is it's dead. If you actually like to encounter and fight other players (which I call "pure PvP"), it's very reasonable to notice that a poorly populated huge map that requires lots of mount riding to find action isn't great for that objective. A smaller map would lead to more frequent and faster encounters which is better from a pure PvP perspective. This is actually a very pro-PvP argument rather than an anti-PvP argument. I want players to actually fight players, not siege empty keeps.

So from this lens, yea I think it's fair to get rid of current population cap Cyrodiil in favor of a smaller zone that still has keeps.

SneaK wrote: »

If you don’t PvP regularly, why participate in this conversation? You think it’s “fair” to get rid of Cyro, who are you and why should we read beyond that statement? Unbelievable.

I used to spend hours a day in Cyrodiil actually. Eventually the performance got so poor that I preferred dueling, IC, and BGs. Then eventually PvP combat got so unbalanced that I stopped PvP altogether. I eventually came back and I still occasionally log on, but not as much as I'd use to. Obviously, I want the game to be what it was when I enjoyed it more.

I still have plenty of time spent PvPing, probably thousands of hours, all small scale or solo PvP over the span of 11 years now. I don't know where you got the idea that I have no experience with it.

katorga wrote: »

Vengeance is PVE. Pure and simple. Boring, nothing interesting modify...perks and load outs are meh. Skills are unimpactful. And it lacks access to ALL of the cool new game changes. Performance is not good enough over Cyro to warrant the loss.

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

if ZOS can't fix normal Grey Host performance, then they don't have the capacity to create a whole new system from scratch either. How are people not seeing this?

This doesn't follow though. You're basically arguing that "They can't fix what exists, so they can't create something new", but that doesn't make sense. If you create something and then over time you completely break it till it's no longer usable, how does that mean that you can't create it again? The fresh start gives you a chance to not repeat the same mistakes that caused the gradual breaking last time.

So I'll quote this:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Test Learnings
Throughout the first three tests, we learned with certainty that in order to deliver a performant Cyrodiil, to support a large-scale PvP zone with mass-scale battles, the abilities, procs, passives, etc. must be lighter versions of the ones that exist in the rest of the game.

The set of four graphs below illustrate the differences in population as well as the server frames per second between the Vengeance Cyrodiil campaign and non-Vengeance Cyrodiil campaigns. (On the left of each graph is the non-Vengeance campaigns and on the right are the Vengeance campaigns, on the PC EU and PC NA servers.)



...

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

This makes it clear that the paragraph long Proc Sets, conditional CP passives, status effects, and all the other bloat that they've added over the years has created a scenario where Cyrodiil cannot perform well at scale.

They tried the obvious solution which is removing all the bloat and it worked. They told us that we can't have both scale and all the stuff that makes up normal PvP right now.

That's a big problem. Grey Host population caps are very low which makes the size of Cyrodiil both unjustified and bad for actual PvP. There's not enough action around the map anymore to make it as fun as it used to be. If you like actual PvP under the current rules, I don't understand why you would be attached to the current Cyrodiil map. It is not good for encountering other players considering the current population caps.

A smaller map without stripping the game down to Vengeance levels makes a lot of sense to give people what they want. If they removed Grey Host in favor of that smaller map (but kept current balance), I actually think that would be fair. I don't think ZOS is committed to keeping the Vengeance ruleset, I think that they are seeing that Cyrodiil is too large and a smaller replacement would make sense.

With that being said, there's still an issue. The bloat that makes the game lag also makes the game suck. In my opinion this is a more serious issue because it is causing players to quit the game. It also means that whenever ZOS tries to release new PvP content, it won't be very popular and it will die out because the underlying combat is not good.

This why I'm such a big advocate for keeping Vengeance because it presents a better opportunity if done right. They can keep the original Cyrodiil map (which is great), improve population caps, and improve balance by building on Vengeance.

In my opinion they should be gradually adding more to Vengeance until they reach the right balance of population caps vs complexity. I think they should keep CP, procs, and status effects out. But they should introduce a variety of straightforward pure stat based sets, passives that aren't super conditional and computation intensive, more complex skills, and a removal of the AOE cap. I would bet that they could get all of that stuff in and they could still have higher population caps than Grey Host does and better balance on top of that. PvE balance wouldn't matter at all cause it's a different set of skills. The game would be similar to as it was Pre One Tamriel when PvP was way more popular.

Instead you guys just want to get Vengeance scrapped which would be a big missed opportunity. They can introduce this new smaller zone if they want, but performance is only half of the story for PvP's death, balance is the other. Under the current balance, PvP is in a death spiral. It's too inaccessible for new players and too cheesy for the vets. So people quit, but almost no one replaces them or comes back. I don't understand why people don't get this.

If ZOS doesn't have the technical know how to fix the systems they already built, they can't build a new system from scratch without ending up in the same place as the old system.

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

if ZOS can't fix normal Grey Host performance, then they don't have the capacity to create a whole new system from scratch either. How are people not seeing this?

This doesn't follow though. You're basically arguing that "They can't fix what exists, so they can't create something new", but that doesn't make sense. If you create something and then over time you completely break it till it's no longer usable, how does that mean that you can't create it again? The fresh start gives you a chance to not repeat the same mistakes that caused the gradual breaking last time.

So I'll quote this:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Test Learnings
Throughout the first three tests, we learned with certainty that in order to deliver a performant Cyrodiil, to support a large-scale PvP zone with mass-scale battles, the abilities, procs, passives, etc. must be lighter versions of the ones that exist in the rest of the game.

The set of four graphs below illustrate the differences in population as well as the server frames per second between the Vengeance Cyrodiil campaign and non-Vengeance Cyrodiil campaigns. (On the left of each graph is the non-Vengeance campaigns and on the right are the Vengeance campaigns, on the PC EU and PC NA servers.)



...

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

This makes it clear that the paragraph long Proc Sets, conditional CP passives, status effects, and all the other bloat that they've added over the years has created a scenario where Cyrodiil cannot perform well at scale.

They tried the obvious solution which is removing all the bloat and it worked. They told us that we can't have both scale and all the stuff that makes up normal PvP right now.

That's a big problem. Grey Host population caps are very low which makes the size of Cyrodiil both unjustified and bad for actual PvP. There's not enough action around the map anymore to make it as fun as it used to be. If you like actual PvP under the current rules, I don't understand why you would be attached to the current Cyrodiil map. It is not good for encountering other players considering the current population caps.

A smaller map without stripping the game down to Vengeance levels makes a lot of sense to give people what they want. If they removed Grey Host in favor of that smaller map (but kept current balance), I actually think that would be fair. I don't think ZOS is committed to keeping the Vengeance ruleset, I think that they are seeing that Cyrodiil is too large and a smaller replacement would make sense.

With that being said, there's still an issue. The bloat that makes the game lag also makes the game suck. In my opinion this is a more serious issue because it is causing players to quit the game. It also means that whenever ZOS tries to release new PvP content, it won't be very popular and it will die out because the underlying combat is not good.

This why I'm such a big advocate for keeping Vengeance because it presents a better opportunity if done right. They can keep the original Cyrodiil map (which is great), improve population caps, and improve balance by building on Vengeance.

In my opinion they should be gradually adding more to Vengeance until they reach the right balance of population caps vs complexity. I think they should keep CP, procs, and status effects out. But they should introduce a variety of straightforward pure stat based sets, passives that aren't super conditional and computation intensive, more complex skills, and a removal of the AOE cap. I would bet that they could get all of that stuff in and they could still have higher population caps than Grey Host does and better balance on top of that. PvE balance wouldn't matter at all cause it's a different set of skills. The game would be similar to as it was Pre One Tamriel when PvP was way more popular.

Instead you guys just want to get Vengeance scrapped which would be a big missed opportunity. They can introduce this new smaller zone if they want, but performance is only half of the story for PvP's death, balance is the other. Under the current balance, PvP is in a death spiral. It's too inaccessible for new players and too cheesy for the vets. So people quit, but almost no one replaces them or comes back. I don't understand why people don't get this.

Actually you're the one not making any sense.

If ZOS doesn't have the technical know how to fix the systems they already built, they can't build a new system from scratch without ending up in the same place as the old system.

This is really basic technical know how, technical deficit type business basics facts of life stuff.

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

Vengeance seemed pretty busy when I was there an hour ago. PCNA

It's friday night prime time, and people need to get to the golden vendor. They can't do that in pop locked Grey Host.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

what you just described is the opposite of balance, and highlights exactly why its always a single color taking the map, its an unskilled zergfest where the mob wins

Stamicka wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

if ZOS can't fix normal Grey Host performance, then they don't have the capacity to create a whole new system from scratch either. How are people not seeing this?

This doesn't follow though. You're basically arguing that "They can't fix what exists, so they can't create something new", but that doesn't make sense. If you create something and then over time you completely break it till it's no longer usable, how does that mean that you can't create it again? The fresh start gives you a chance to not repeat the same mistakes that caused the gradual breaking last time.

So I'll quote this:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Test Learnings
Throughout the first three tests, we learned with certainty that in order to deliver a performant Cyrodiil, to support a large-scale PvP zone with mass-scale battles, the abilities, procs, passives, etc. must be lighter versions of the ones that exist in the rest of the game.

The set of four graphs below illustrate the differences in population as well as the server frames per second between the Vengeance Cyrodiil campaign and non-Vengeance Cyrodiil campaigns. (On the left of each graph is the non-Vengeance campaigns and on the right are the Vengeance campaigns, on the PC EU and PC NA servers.)



...

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

This makes it clear that the paragraph long Proc Sets, conditional CP passives, status effects, and all the other bloat that they've added over the years has created a scenario where Cyrodiil cannot perform well at scale.

They tried the obvious solution which is removing all the bloat and it worked. They told us that we can't have both scale and all the stuff that makes up normal PvP right now.

That's a big problem. Grey Host population caps are very low which makes the size of Cyrodiil both unjustified and bad for actual PvP. There's not enough action around the map anymore to make it as fun as it used to be. If you like actual PvP under the current rules, I don't understand why you would be attached to the current Cyrodiil map. It is not good for encountering other players considering the current population caps.

A smaller map without stripping the game down to Vengeance levels makes a lot of sense to give people what they want. If they removed Grey Host in favor of that smaller map (but kept current balance), I actually think that would be fair. I don't think ZOS is committed to keeping the Vengeance ruleset, I think that they are seeing that Cyrodiil is too large and a smaller replacement would make sense.

With that being said, there's still an issue. The bloat that makes the game lag also makes the game suck. In my opinion this is a more serious issue because it is causing players to quit the game. It also means that whenever ZOS tries to release new PvP content, it won't be very popular and it will die out because the underlying combat is not good.

This why I'm such a big advocate for keeping Vengeance because it presents a better opportunity if done right. They can keep the original Cyrodiil map (which is great), improve population caps, and improve balance by building on Vengeance.

In my opinion they should be gradually adding more to Vengeance until they reach the right balance of population caps vs complexity. I think they should keep CP, procs, and status effects out. But they should introduce a variety of straightforward pure stat based sets, passives that aren't super conditional and computation intensive, more complex skills, and a removal of the AOE cap. I would bet that they could get all of that stuff in and they could still have higher population caps than Grey Host does and better balance on top of that. PvE balance wouldn't matter at all cause it's a different set of skills. The game would be similar to as it was Pre One Tamriel when PvP was way more popular.

Instead you guys just want to get Vengeance scrapped which would be a big missed opportunity. They can introduce this new smaller zone if they want, but performance is only half of the story for PvP's death, balance is the other. Under the current balance, PvP is in a death spiral. It's too inaccessible for new players and too cheesy for the vets. So people quit, but almost no one replaces them or comes back. I don't understand why people don't get this.

Bruccius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

what you just described is the opposite of balance, and highlights exactly why its always a single color taking the map, its an unskilled zergfest where the mob wins

When you can't rely anymore on the effects from sets or enchants, you automatically need to play with more skill. Let's not act like Gray Host doesn't have zerg groups.

Vengeance has plenty of time where there are large scale battles - and those are actual battles, not the meatball strat you so commonly see in regular PvP.