Where is the incentive to push Vestige?

Radiate77 · June 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What mental gymnastics did I wake up to?
Let’s not put words in people’s mouths now. 😁

This thread is feedback, not complaints, not whining, not attacking anyone, it is my honest criticism of the reward structure provided by Challenge Difficulty. My feedback is that the new slider does not adhere to the same risk-vs-reward structure that the rest of the game follows.

Saying that Challenge Slider was added just “for thrills” is a bold assumption, there are a plethora of reasons why this was needed, one such reason is that for over a decade we have had a push for a more rewarding game.

Rewards throughout Overland have been notoriously stingy, and while this has been remedied in the last few Chapters, we still have plenty of old zones that do not reward anything.

Let’s also keep in mind that Fin has said that the team is still working on the reward structure for this, and that the slider is a work in progress.

Instead of creating some weird narrative about people complaining (this thread is not that) why don’t you amazing constructive people come up with your own feedback regarding your own experience?

The Challenge system isn't designed to be risk/reward. It's designed to be player choice on how hard they want to nerf themselves.

Show me one developer saying that.

Gabriel_H · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What mental gymnastics did I wake up to?
Let’s not put words in people’s mouths now. 😁

This thread is feedback, not complaints, not whining, not attacking anyone, it is my honest criticism of the reward structure provided by Challenge Difficulty. My feedback is that the new slider does not adhere to the same risk-vs-reward structure that the rest of the game follows.

Saying that Challenge Slider was added just “for thrills” is a bold assumption, there are a plethora of reasons why this was needed, one such reason is that for over a decade we have had a push for a more rewarding game.

Rewards throughout Overland have been notoriously stingy, and while this has been remedied in the last few Chapters, we still have plenty of old zones that do not reward anything.

Let’s also keep in mind that Fin has said that the team is still working on the reward structure for this, and that the slider is a work in progress.

Instead of creating some weird narrative about people complaining (this thread is not that) why don’t you amazing constructive people come up with your own feedback regarding your own experience?

The Challenge system isn't designed to be risk/reward. It's designed to be player choice on how hard they want to nerf themselves.

Show me one developer saying that.

Radiate77 · June 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What mental gymnastics did I wake up to?
Let’s not put words in people’s mouths now. 😁

This thread is feedback, not complaints, not whining, not attacking anyone, it is my honest criticism of the reward structure provided by Challenge Difficulty. My feedback is that the new slider does not adhere to the same risk-vs-reward structure that the rest of the game follows.

Saying that Challenge Slider was added just “for thrills” is a bold assumption, there are a plethora of reasons why this was needed, one such reason is that for over a decade we have had a push for a more rewarding game.

Rewards throughout Overland have been notoriously stingy, and while this has been remedied in the last few Chapters, we still have plenty of old zones that do not reward anything.

Let’s also keep in mind that Fin has said that the team is still working on the reward structure for this, and that the slider is a work in progress.

Instead of creating some weird narrative about people complaining (this thread is not that) why don’t you amazing constructive people come up with your own feedback regarding your own experience?

The Challenge system isn't designed to be risk/reward. It's designed to be player choice on how hard they want to nerf themselves.

Show me one developer saying that.

If the goal is to tailor our experience, where does that say anywhere that a harder experience shuts us out from greater rewards?

You can tailor your experience in dungeons, arenas, and trials too.

Gabriel_H · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What mental gymnastics did I wake up to?
Let’s not put words in people’s mouths now. 😁

This thread is feedback, not complaints, not whining, not attacking anyone, it is my honest criticism of the reward structure provided by Challenge Difficulty. My feedback is that the new slider does not adhere to the same risk-vs-reward structure that the rest of the game follows.

Saying that Challenge Slider was added just “for thrills” is a bold assumption, there are a plethora of reasons why this was needed, one such reason is that for over a decade we have had a push for a more rewarding game.

Rewards throughout Overland have been notoriously stingy, and while this has been remedied in the last few Chapters, we still have plenty of old zones that do not reward anything.

Let’s also keep in mind that Fin has said that the team is still working on the reward structure for this, and that the slider is a work in progress.

Instead of creating some weird narrative about people complaining (this thread is not that) why don’t you amazing constructive people come up with your own feedback regarding your own experience?

The Challenge system isn't designed to be risk/reward. It's designed to be player choice on how hard they want to nerf themselves.

Show me one developer saying that.

If the goal is to tailor our experience, where does that say anywhere that a harder experience shuts us out from greater rewards?

You can tailor your experience in dungeons, arenas, and trials too.

Do I have to repeat everything I've said thus far? Ok:

Vestige is the incentive and reward. It's entirely a sense of self-accomplishment.

Hardmode dungeons are increased difficulty.
Vestige is a self-imposed nerf that makes things more difficult (and in some cases nigh impossible).

The former is specifically tuned, especially the newer content, with mechs that require precise co-ordination.
The latter is a sledgehammer that you can achieve the same result on just by taking off all weapons and armour.

The Challenge system isn't designed to be risk/reward. It's designed to be player choice on how hard they want to nerf themselves.

There can never be substantial rewards while the zones are mixed difficulty. ZOS intend to keep zones mixed.

SilverBride · June 12

It didn't take long for the focus to change from "want overland to feel dangerous" to "Vestige isn't being rewarded for the difficulty". I wish I could say I'm surprised by this.

Radiate77 · June 12

Repeat yourself all you want, @Gabriel_H you are not the designer of this Slider, neither have you worked on the game at any point.

Even if you had, this is a system driven by feedback, here I am giving more feedback.

It is obvious that there is an intent to reward more based on difficulty by the XP and Gold slider, it just isn’t enough.

If you complete a Chapter end-boss with a small group of friends on Vestige, you should get something cool from it.

Tra_Lalan · June 12

The reward for me is fun,

the game finally feels like it should feel and because of that it is fun to play it.

One shoting everything while also beeing immortal is not my wibe in an rpg game.

Radiate77 · June 12

SilverBride wrote: »

It didn't take long for the focus to change from "want overland to feel dangerous" to "Vestige isn't being rewarded for the difficulty". I wish I could say I'm surprised by this.

Who’s focus? Wasn’t mine. 😁

Last I checked you were on EVERY page of that overland thread pushing back against Challenge Difficulty.

Can you quote me over there saying that I wanted a “for thrills” system that doesn’t incentivize you to play it? Matter of fact, can you quote me AT ALL over there?

SilverBride · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Repeat yourself all you want, @Gabriel_H you are not the designer of this Slider, neither have you worked on the game at any point.

Even if you had, this is a system driven by feedback, here I am giving more feedback.

It is obvious that there is an intent to reward more based on difficulty by the XP and Gold slider, it just isn’t enough.

If you complete a Chapter end-boss with a small group of friends on Vestige, you should get something cool from it.

I completely agree with @Gabriel_H.

It is more than enough. And no Vestige shouldn't get anything cool from doing what everyone else was already doing the way the game was set up to be played. Choosing Vestige is OPTIONAL. The satisfaction of making the game more immersive is what was asked for and that is reward enough.

SilverBride · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It didn't take long for the focus to change from "want overland to feel dangerous" to "Vestige isn't being rewarded for the difficulty". I wish I could say I'm surprised by this.

Who’s focus? Wasn’t mine. 😁

Last I checked you were on EVERY page of that overland thread pushing back against Challenge Difficulty.

Can you quote me over there saying that I wanted a “for thrills” system that doesn’t incentivize you to play it? Matter of fact, can you quote me AT ALL over there?

I wasn't on every page. I even stopped replying to it for quite awhile.
I fought back against a separate veteran overland, but I supported an optional system.

The most prevalent reason given for players wanting this was so overland felt dangerous and more immersive. Now that they have difficulty levels better rewards are being requested.

My feedback to this is "No".

Gabriel_H · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

If you complete a Chapter end-boss with a small group of friends on Vestige, you should get something cool from it.

You already do. The same reward as everyone else. If you chose to do it on Vestige, that was your choice. If you found it difficult you could've made it easier any time.

Soarora · June 12

I'm all fine with gatekeeping people based on skill from group instanced PvE achievements (in other words, HMs and trifectas do not need to be achievable by the majority of people), but gatekeeping overland rewards based on skill level feels weird. I think the current achievements added are good-- the plethora of "kill at seasoned or higher" introduces people to the system whilst there's only one or two vestige-mode specific achievements, which can be done with help. Maybe my perspective is just because overland has been so easy for so long, it's hard to imagine it being considered its own difficult content, so keep that in mind with this comment as well.

Truly, for me, the achievements pushed me to try it sooner rather than later and the enjoyment of playing the game on Vestige is what keeps me there. I didn't even think I'd be able to play Vestige mode on my main but apparently I can. Haven't tried solo quest instances though.

Vonnegut2506 · June 12

Since this is evidently just a thread for giving feedback according to the thread creator, here is mine. The harder difficulty levels are great for making the content seem more challenging. There does not need to be any additional rewards.

CalamityCat · June 12

I think the current rewards for vestige are fine. If they add something later I don't really care. I don't do vet content in ESO for the loot. The usual "good" rewards for vet content are items I never use because they're ugly or neon.

Vestige is the sort of challenge I'm happy to do because it's there and I haven't done it yet.

Muizer · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

It is obvious that there is an intent to reward more based on difficulty by the XP and Gold slider, it just isn’t enough.

Or they added it to compensate for players being slowed down as they realized that otherwise a flat reward structure would actively work against the adoption of the feature.

Maythor · June 12

I am sure there is enough room in the community for varying opinions on this, but I seem to remember it being said in the ESO live that they might look into rewards possibly being added later, so it would not seem to be tied up in a developer's red bow as to how the system will look in the future, no matter how emphatically some people have responded to the OP here!

I must admit that the title of "Vestige of.." made me try out the vestige difficulty today, and more rewards in the future might well encourage me to again dip my toe into the system, so I would not be opposed to ZOS doing that!

Nemesis7884 · June 12

Why does anything need a reward beyond your own entertainment? If you dont find the fun in something then dont do it...

bmnoble · June 12

Wouldn't that be the most easily exploitable achievements to get though, not like your on your own in overland nor can you claim a duel with a world boss or dragon and drive everyone else away, your going to get a load of people on other difficulties show up and trivialise any difficult fight.

Worst case we might get overland carry groups, when someone who want some new shiny but keeps dying, is willing to fork over hundreds or thousands or even a few million gold to get.

Vaqual · June 13

There is really no need to make this a controversial topic. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty is a simple enough concept. I even feel giving tiny rewards might have been a mistake, because people are already getting their expectations up.

SkillzMFG · June 13

Again, the same 'no fun allowed' crowd that was against the difficulty system in the first place, that is against fixing the companion difficulty issue, is also against better rewards for Vestige.

People who are bad at the game trying to keep everyone else down just because they can't be bothered to play and get better at the game they claim to love.

This is why ESO has gotten in a state in which it currently is, and why the population keeps declining.

AlexanderDeLarge · June 13

SilverBride wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It didn't take long for the focus to change from "want overland to feel dangerous" to "Vestige isn't being rewarded for the difficulty". I wish I could say I'm surprised by this.

Who’s focus? Wasn’t mine. 😁

Last I checked you were on EVERY page of that overland thread pushing back against Challenge Difficulty.

Can you quote me over there saying that I wanted a “for thrills” system that doesn’t incentivize you to play it? Matter of fact, can you quote me AT ALL over there?

I wasn't on every page. I even stopped replying to it for quite awhile.
I fought back against a separate veteran overland, but I supported an optional system.

The most prevalent reason given for players wanting this was so overland felt dangerous and more immersive. Now that they have difficulty levels better rewards are being requested.

My feedback to this is "No".

And I was right there alongside you fighting every step of the way and you're blatantly misrepresenting what was said by many of us: These challenge mode modifiers are going to be expensive to upkeep, it's broken gear, potions and food, it's an economic disadvantage and the 200% gold gain doesn't come close to sustaining the losses.

Many of us also said that veteran dungeons, trials and arenas had purple/gold gear and it makes no sense for this to be the exception to the general rule of 'more difficulty = more rewards'.

AlexanderDeLarge · June 13

Vaqual wrote: »

There is really no need to make this a controversial topic. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty is a simple enough concept. I even feel giving tiny rewards might have been a mistake, because people are already getting their expectations up.

I agree. It's completely inoffensive, in the opposite direction. Dungeons, arenas and trials get enhanced rewards in their difficulty modes. Why should overland breakaway from the reward structure/philosophy of more difficulty = more rewards? One side is asking for consistency in game design. The other is asking for a deviation.

Bit strange how the ones asking for consistency are labelled as whiners and beggars on these forums.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Funny, I was told for years that we were a vocal minority and ZOS had data that proved that I was just an idiot that didn't know what I was talking about. Very much a case of 'don't believe your lying eyes' when I'd scroll through steam reviews and comment sections on Facebook and YouTube and MassivelyOP comment sections directly attributing a lack of difficulty as to why they're not playing.

Luneca · June 13

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There is really no need to make this a controversial topic. Difficulty for the sake of difficulty is a simple enough concept. I even feel giving tiny rewards might have been a mistake, because people are already getting their expectations up.

I agree. It's completely inoffensive, in the opposite direction. Dungeons, arenas and trials get enhanced rewards in their difficulty modes. Why should overland breakaway from the reward structure/philosophy of more difficulty = more rewards? One side is asking for consistency in game design. The other is asking for a deviation.

Bit strange how the ones asking for consistency are labelled as whiners and beggars on these forums.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Funny, I was told for years that we were a vocal minority and ZOS had data that proved that I was just an idiot that didn't know what I was talking about. Very much a case of 'don't believe your lying eyes' when I'd scroll through steam reviews and comment sections on Facebook and YouTube and MassivelyOP comment sections directly attributing a lack of difficulty as to why they're not playing.

Well no one really knows how they determine that or how true of a statement it is for the player base. I can tell you that 0 of my 100 friends cared about it, it hasn't caused those that left to feel like returning, and the only one that praised it was my brother because he hated killing story mode bosses easily.

But he said he would NEVER use it to grind trash mobs. So there's that. But, get this, he still hasn't logged into the game for over a month. Seriously.

The only guy that I know, that wanted it, still hasn't logged into the game for a month. I think I'd like to know how they determined it was the "most requested feature." Had I been the one writing the article, I would have cited how that conclusion was reached.

If they claim it was player surveys (you know the one most players never get), then I wonder who really got to answer it and by what margin this request trumped things like...you know...actually fixing buggy and incompleteable content? Or was that not even an option?

The statement that it's "most requested" does not inspire confidence or belief when reality quickly proves the opposite in a sample I can find. So I would like to know exactly where and how it was concluded.

Gabriel_H · June 13

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Funny, I was told for years that we were a vocal minority and ZOS had data that proved that I was just an idiot that didn't know what I was talking about. Very much a case of 'don't believe your lying eyes' when I'd scroll through steam reviews and comment sections on Facebook and YouTube and MassivelyOP comment sections directly attributing a lack of difficulty as to why they're not playing.

Most-requested and vocal minority are not mutually exclusive, just saying.

AlexanderDeLarge · June 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Most-requested and vocal minority are not mutually exclusive, just saying.

Well according to the people who rabidly fought against this feature for years, ZOS has the data, so that argument works both ways. Exclusively pandering to the people already playing your game, a buy2play game no less, is not how you operate a live service. Destiny 2 made that mistake. TESO was making that mistake for a long time, fortunately ZOS changed course and focused on the health of their game over the last two or so years.

Is enhancing rewards in a way that is consistent with the rest of the game going to cost them players? No. Why would it? This is such an arbitrary line being drawn in the sand.

Gabriel_H · June 13

SkillzMFG wrote: »

Again, the same 'no fun allowed' crowd that was against the difficulty system in the first place, that is against fixing the companion difficulty issue, is also against better rewards for Vestige.

People who are bad at the game trying to keep everyone else down just because they can't be bothered to play and get better at the game they claim to love.

This is why ESO has gotten in a state in which it currently is, and why the population keeps declining.

I've solo'd everything in overland. I've done all the World Events on Vestige and several of the harder world bosses (took me 2 attempts to work out how to tank Oblivion Portals without dying, and 3 attempts on how not to die on the Dragons).

I also hold my own in PvP. I have ~68,000 achievement points, and I run end-game dungeon and trial trifectas.

I've done all of that on one character, without sub-classing.

Vestige rewards are fine as is. They don't need anything unique adding. But please, do tell me more about how I'm "bad at the game".

SilverBride · June 13

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Many of us also said that veteran dungeons, trials and arenas had purple/gold gear and it makes no sense for this to be the exception to the general rule of 'more difficulty = more rewards'.

The enemies in dungeons and trials loot tables reflect the difficulty of these enemies, and these rewards are the same for everyone that engages in the content.

Overland difficulty does not change a single thing about the overland enemies. It does not make them any more difficult. It is a debuff on the character that chooses to use it, to make the fight (not the enemy) more difficult for just them. That would not have any effect on the loot tables.

Arunei · June 13

SkillzMFG wrote: »

Again, the same 'no fun allowed' crowd that was against the difficulty system in the first place, that is against fixing the companion difficulty issue, is also against better rewards for Vestige.

People who are bad at the game trying to keep everyone else down just because they can't be bothered to play and get better at the game they claim to love.

This is why ESO has gotten in a state in which it currently is, and why the population keeps declining.

This feels like a bait post more than anything. There was hardly anyone against an opt-in system, and pretty much everyone who was against it were people who thought it would be a great idea to force everyone into playing on harder difficulty just because THEY wanted it. But hey, if you have proof of more than maybe one or two people saying we shouldn't have an opt-in harder Overland difficulty for people who wanted it, by all means prove me wrong. Until then this claim is blatantly untrue.

The second claim is just to insult people for no reason and adds nothing to the conversation. Plenty of people like myself are quite competent and can do harder content, we just don't want to. It's called preference, not being bad at the game. Insulting people to try and prop up your point only brings it down.

Same for the final thing. Implying "bad" players are making others leave the game is laughable at best. People don't have to be bad to not care about doing harder content, sorry to tell ya. It's no ones' business but our own what we want to spend our time doing.

BardokRedSnow · June 13

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

not that deep, its to make the game harder in pve for those of us like myself that have found the game way too easy for years.

Its fun. Thats all I need.

The title was just a bonus

Gabriel_H · June 13

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Many of us also said that veteran dungeons, trials and arenas had purple/gold gear and it makes no sense for this to be the exception to the general rule of 'more difficulty = more rewards'.

The enemies in dungeons and trials loot tables reflect the difficulty of these enemies, and these rewards are the same for everyone that engages in the content.

Overland difficulty does not change a single thing about the overland enemies. It does not make them any more difficult. It is a debuff on the character that chooses to use it, to make the fight (not the enemy) more difficult for just them. That would not have any effect on the loot tables.

That ^^.

The difference between a normal, veteran and hardmode is down to more than just mob health and how much damage they do. They have increasing layers of mechs and co-ordination that is required to complete them.

If you want to complete a dungeon you can choose to do it on any difficulty, but if you want to complete the hardmode (the advanced mechs) you have to do it on hardmode. Heck, there are even bosses in the game that have entirely different fights depending on the mode. Bashei is the one that springs to mind the most. On Normal/Veteran it a relatively simplistic tank and spank, laying the AoEs and dealing correctly with the curse is about as complex as it gets. On hardmode it is an entirely different fight. It's not just more difficult content, it is additional content that requires precise co-ordination between 4/12 players.

None of that can be said for Vestige difficulty. It's the exact same complexity as Adventurer. The mobs do more damage and the fights take longer but that is where the similarity to dungeons/trials end. There are no additional layers of mechs to deal with. Heck, any mechs that do exist are no more complex than a base game normal dungeon. And to complete the content you can switch down the mode from Vestige to a lower one. Not to mention get help from anyone, up to whatever the instance cap is (what 150+?), who can be on the lowest difficulty.

The shorthand that is used "increased difficulty should give increased rewards" is being misunderstood. The difficulty referred to is the complexity of the encounters, not the damage, not the boss health.