It's that time of year again (Begging once more for a racial passive revamp)

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD · June 11

It has officially been 10 years since the last major update to racial passives. The recovery focused races (Redguard, Breton, and Bosmer) have gotten the short of end of the stick with hybridization since their regen passives were never hybridized, pigeonholing them significantly more than all the other races. Redguard passives are especially garbage as they are simultaneously the squishiest race and offer no bonuses to damage. Their sustain passive Adrenaline Rush is useless in the one game mode where sustain actually matters (PvP) since it doesn't proc when playing defensively. Weapon skills make up very few of the skills on the average build's skillbar, and they are typically cheap to begin with, rendering their weapon skill cost reduction passive mostly worthless. They are underwhelming dps, tanks, and healers. There exists no niche in which they are BiS. The 15% snare reduction is a joke.

A change is long past overdue.

Gabriel_H · June 11

Racial Passives are flavour text.

Any differences can be overcome by skill and builds.

Luneca · June 11

Being a Redguard is a disappointment, but at least NO ONE ever says anything mean when they lose.

ZOS_Hadeostry · June 11

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AScarlato · June 11

I'm going to be contrarian and ask that they leave them alone. They are playing around with too much IMO and I don't need even more random changes. I'll probably end up with another armor buff or something I don't want and they'd have to just give us all racial change tokens for free.

Alaztor91 · June 11

It's weird that they apparently decided to leave the Racial Passives in an unfinished state when they are addressing the other stuff like Potions and Buffs.

Why do Bretons have Spell Resistance, but Nords have Armor?
Why do Bosmer have Stam Regen, but Khajiit have Health/Stam/Mag Regen?
Why do Redguards have Weapon Abilities Cost Reduction, but Imperials have All Abilities Cost Reduction?

Lore can no longer be used as an excuse since the last rework made it clear that it's no longer a concern for ZOS.

AScarlato · June 11

Alaztor91 wrote: »

It's weird that they apparently decided to leave the Racial Passives in an unfinished state when they are addressing the other stuff like Potions and Buffs.

Why do Bretons have Spell Resistance, but Nords have Armor?
Why do Bosmer have Stam Regen, but Khajiit have Health/Stam/Mag Regen?
Why do Redguards have Weapon Abilities Cost Reduction, but Imperials have All Abilities Cost Reduction?

Lore can no longer be used as an excuse since the last rework made it clear that it's no longer a concern for ZOS.

If RP/Lore is not a good reason, then just remove them entirely rather than make them nonsensical for gameplay reasons.

I prefer they keep them, and keep them flavorful.

PeacefulAnarchy · June 11

Just make them selectable independent of race and call them regional passives. Then my Argonian who grew up in wrothgar can take the "orc" passives, or my Breton from Morrowind can take the "dark elf" passives. Anyone who wants to keep things the same can do so, but anyone who doesn't can swap to a different set. The sets would be the same so there's no balancing issues, just more flexibility.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 11

Id hate to see them make any changes to this. We are finally somewhat getting out characters back after a year and changing this is not a good idea right now.

There is 1 exception - The Argonian swimming speed. Since we now have mount swimming, that seems a little pointless now, or perhaps speed it up when swimming as an Argonian.

Hapexamendios · June 11

No thanks. I'm fine with my characters as is.

old_mufasa · June 11

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Racial Passives are flavour text.

Any differences can be overcome by skill and builds.

That's factually inaccurate. No amount of skills or builds overcomes certain racial perks. An example is khajiit their innate crit buffs will always make them better in crit builds no other race is going to be able to compensate with their build, skills or gear because a khajiit player can do the same with their build and gear and will still be better.

They're not overcoming the racial they can try to mitigate as much as possible but the top end races are the top end races for a reason not just for flavor.

Gabriel_H · June 11

old_mufasa wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Racial Passives are flavour text.

Any differences can be overcome by skill and builds.

That's factually inaccurate. No amount of skills or builds overcomes certain racial perks. An example is khajiit their innate crit buffs will always make them better in crit builds no other race is going to be able to compensate with their build, skills or gear because a khajiit player can do the same with their build and gear and will still be better.

They're not overcoming the racial they can try to mitigate as much as possible but the top end races are the top end races for a reason not just for flavor.

In organised group, the whole group is at the critical damage cap of 125%. The passive is redundant.

Apollosipod · June 12

I've always thought giving the player the ability to choose a background for their chats would allow for me flexibility. Hell, even taking the existing passives and spreading them in different ways across the backgrounds. Ie. Wood Orcs are fast get perks with bows and less fall damage. Imperial Colovian vs Niben could give better passives for tank or magic. There could be many ways to shake it up

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD · June 12

In organised group, the whole group is at the critical damage cap of 125%. The passive is redundant.[/quote]

There's no cap for weapon or spell damage though. Altmer/Dunmer/Orsimer all get a whole extra infused jewelery enchantment's worth of damage for free. Arguably the difference between races is most apparent with high end players because they can exploit every little bonus to its utmost.

Gabriel_H · June 12

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD wrote: »

There's no cap for weapon or spell damage though. Altmer/Dunmer/Orsimer all get a whole extra infused jewelery enchantment's worth of damage for free. Arguably the difference between races is most apparent with high end players because they can exploit every little bonus to its utmost.

An absolutely amazing DD with perfect weaving, timing, and the ability to predict the future to maximise damage output on as many mobs as possible will benefit from the passive, compared to playing with a different passive.

For the rest of us mere mortals it makes no discernable difference.

Kalle_Demos · June 12

Last time y'all asked for a Racial Passive overhaul the Bosmer went extinct! LEAVE IT ALONE!

Peace_Walker · June 12

Yes, I agree. Racial passives indeed need some changes.

Heydan_Seegil · June 12

I agree, there should be a rework so that Imperials get 10000 points of damage reduction and 10000 points of additional damage to all attacks because Imperials are the best.

Zodiarkslayer · June 12

The last set of changes occurred in Feb2019. I believe it was patch 4.3.5, for anyone who likes to google specifics.
Back then, the situation was similar in that there were obvious racial choices for certain roles and playstyle. And the changes focused on a balance between adhering to the lore and providing practical benefits to playstyle. And it worked.

The problem now is that the game has changed so much that the previously found balance has been toppled. Completely.

But I feel like racials shouldn't be a priority right now. They still somehow work, even if some fall a little short.
There are other projects to focus on. Projects, that would have an immediate impact on a future balance anyway. Class refresh and finishing hybridization, to name the big ones.

old_mufasa · June 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Racial Passives are flavour text.

Any differences can be overcome by skill and builds.

That's factually inaccurate. No amount of skills or builds overcomes certain racial perks. An example is khajiit their innate crit buffs will always make them better in crit builds no other race is going to be able to compensate with their build, skills or gear because a khajiit player can do the same with their build and gear and will still be better.

They're not overcoming the racial they can try to mitigate as much as possible but the top end races are the top end races for a reason not just for flavor.

In organised group, the whole group is at the critical damage cap of 125%. The passive is redundant.

That's 100% irrelevant because to get to cap quicker meaning you can put points someplace else mean you still have more resources to put in a location plus the game doesn't revolve around just organize PVE so that argument is completely invalidated

Nissowolf · June 12

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Just make them selectable independent of race and call them regional passives. Then my Argonian who grew up in wrothgar can take the "orc" passives, or my Breton from Morrowind can take the "dark elf" passives. Anyone who wants to keep things the same can do so, but anyone who doesn't can swap to a different set. The sets would be the same so there's no balancing issues, just more flexibility.

that would not be the smart move as a lot of passive are depending on the genetic, or blood, or ascendancy specific to the race. You can't say an argonian should get the magical resistance of a breton because he grew up in glenumbra. That's not how it works.

Daoin · June 12

Alaztor91 wrote: »

It's weird that they apparently decided to leave the Racial Passives in an unfinished state when they are addressing the other stuff like Potions and Buffs.

Why do Bretons have Spell Resistance, but Nords have Armor?
Why do Bosmer have Stam Regen, but Khajiit have Health/Stam/Mag Regen?
Why do Redguards have Weapon Abilities Cost Reduction, but Imperials have All Abilities Cost Reduction?

Lore can no longer be used as an excuse since the last rework made it clear that it's no longer a concern for ZOS.

because of where the are from ? if i am a nord i want to pack plenty of arour only in my passive

Daoin · June 12

how can a person even consider balancing thier own skill level by comparing it to others and call it balancing ?

Daoin · June 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD wrote: »

There's no cap for weapon or spell damage though. Altmer/Dunmer/Orsimer all get a whole extra infused jewelery enchantment's worth of damage for free. Arguably the difference between races is most apparent with high end players because they can exploit every little bonus to its utmost.

An absolutely amazing DD with perfect weaving, timing, and the ability to predict the future to maximise damage output on as many mobs as possible will benefit from the passive, compared to playing with a different passive.

For the rest of us mere mortals it makes no discernable difference.

but in the bigger picture if we include every individual player in eso, then results on stuff like dps or healing and tanking are AWLAYS going to differ so the passives effect each individul in a different way

Jestir · June 12

Linking a literal shower thought I had on this subject before
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691796/an-idea-on-how-to-redo-racial-passives#latest

"Current racial passives are both not the best balanced, restrictive and honestly forgettable but the new class passives have inspired me a bit to brainstorm something

What if that first basic passive that doesn't cost any points we had now stayed pretty much the same, tiny % of XP or a niche resist, small things that don't really matter but the 3 actual passives that needed investment into were replaced by something more like an "origin" where you could only pick 1.

Obviously for game play reasons they would still need to be built roughly around the games tank, healer, dps roles but instead of a Breton being a healer and okay mag dps they had an origin around being from a "knightly" background that was tanking focus, a healing focused druid (pretty much the current lines) and a DPS origin based around the elf heritage.

One of the stronger examples I thought of would be argonians having origins about being born under the sign of the shadow getting a crit focus, a simple hist follower origin that works like the current and a born slave origin around tanking.

Clearly the names and the exact bonuses are just me spit balling but the idea should get across. I just feel like this would definitely help with the "play how you want" idea the devs say they want while both balancing it for those who want it and adding a small RP aspect to those it doesn't really matter to

This was literally a shower thought and thank you for reading if for some reason you did"

Apollosipod · June 12

Jestir wrote: »

Linking a literal shower thought I had on this subject before
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691796/an-idea-on-how-to-redo-racial-passives#latest

"Current racial passives are both not the best balanced, restrictive and honestly forgettable but the new class passives have inspired me a bit to brainstorm something

What if that first basic passive that doesn't cost any points we had now stayed pretty much the same, tiny % of XP or a niche resist, small things that don't really matter but the 3 actual passives that needed investment into were replaced by something more like an "origin" where you could only pick 1.

Obviously for game play reasons they would still need to be built roughly around the games tank, healer, dps roles but instead of a Breton being a healer and okay mag dps they had an origin around being from a "knightly" background that was tanking focus, a healing focused druid (pretty much the current lines) and a DPS origin based around the elf heritage.

One of the stronger examples I thought of would be argonians having origins about being born under the sign of the shadow getting a crit focus, a simple hist follower origin that works like the current and a born slave origin around tanking.

Clearly the names and the exact bonuses are just me spit balling but the idea should get across. I just feel like this would definitely help with the "play how you want" idea the devs say they want while both balancing it for those who want it and adding a small RP aspect to those it doesn't really matter to

This was literally a shower thought and thank you for reading if for some reason you did"

As someone who has also thought of this along similar lines, I've always thought it would be a great opportunity for ZOS to incorporate some cool new options (though admittedly it's a big pipedream) across the races for RP elements and better customization for characters. When's the last time you saw a Bosmer tank? But what if all the existing passives could just be jumbled based on role preference? With more options you could do things like the following options while keeping the as-is races as a normal choice:

Khajiit
- Palmer-Raht Khajiit: Larger Khajiit variant - all it takes is a s aled up model. No need to remodel for any existing armors, but it could give Khajiit a tanking option.

Altmer
- Maomer: Melee- focused form of the High Elf with more stamina-based passives (also a race people have clamored to play for years)

Argonian
- Sithis-Touched: Better damage dealing perks for damage dealers
- Treemender: More healing focused

Bosmer
- Bark-Skin: Passives focused on tanking

Just a few ideas that could be a lot of fun

PeacefulAnarchy · June 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD wrote: »

There's no cap for weapon or spell damage though. Altmer/Dunmer/Orsimer all get a whole extra infused jewelery enchantment's worth of damage for free. Arguably the difference between races is most apparent with high end players because they can exploit every little bonus to its utmost.

An absolutely amazing DD with perfect weaving, timing, and the ability to predict the future to maximise damage output on as many mobs as possible will benefit from the passive, compared to playing with a different passive.

For the rest of us mere mortals it makes no discernable difference.

Of course it does, the numerical difference is there all the same. The only difference is that if I can parse say 120 on dark elf and only 105 on argonian you can respond "git good 120 is certainly possible on argonian", which is true but if I were good enough to get 120 on argonian I'd be getting 130+ on dark elf. The gap is always there and it is noticeable for anyone making an effort to optimize even of they are not at the top.

PrinceShroob · June 12

I'd just leave the first passive, cut all the rest, and slightly increase everyone's base stats to compensate.

They're pretty much completely arbitrary, anyway. Traditional stronghold Orcs have wise women but have never had any bonuses to magicka. Bosmer Spinners can functionally alter history, but don't have a Spell Damage bonus. Why do Altmer have nothing to represent their aristocratic dueling tradition, and why are Bretons repeatedly played up as being Machiavellian politicians but only have bonuses to magic skills? Across 30 years of the series, we've seen all the playable races in every role and there's a lore justification for practically any bonus imaginable, so it's stupid to keep this outdated system where certain characters are objectively better at certain things, especially since the game already has plenty of other customization options and build choices elsewhere.

I'd rather not have some over-complicated system of picking origins or whatever that'd just end up with meta picks anyway when the problem can just be solved by axing this nonsense.

ceruulean · June 12

I feel like races should only have RP passives and not have any sustain, damage, defense, or combat resource-related passives. Like redguards getting more duration from food, nords getting more from drink, argonians swimming faster, bosmer fall dmg reduction.

Gabriel_H · June 12

old_mufasa wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Racial Passives are flavour text.

Any differences can be overcome by skill and builds.

That's factually inaccurate. No amount of skills or builds overcomes certain racial perks. An example is khajiit their innate crit buffs will always make them better in crit builds no other race is going to be able to compensate with their build, skills or gear because a khajiit player can do the same with their build and gear and will still be better.

They're not overcoming the racial they can try to mitigate as much as possible but the top end races are the top end races for a reason not just for flavor.

In organised group, the whole group is at the critical damage cap of 125%. The passive is redundant.

That's 100% irrelevant because to get to cap quicker meaning you can put points someplace else mean you still have more resources to put in a location plus the game doesn't revolve around just organize PVE so that argument is completely invalidated

Which brings us full circle to what I said at the start.

Racial Passives are flavour text.

Any differences can be overcome by skill and builds.

Gabriel_H · June 12

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD wrote: »

There's no cap for weapon or spell damage though. Altmer/Dunmer/Orsimer all get a whole extra infused jewelery enchantment's worth of damage for free. Arguably the difference between races is most apparent with high end players because they can exploit every little bonus to its utmost.

An absolutely amazing DD with perfect weaving, timing, and the ability to predict the future to maximise damage output on as many mobs as possible will benefit from the passive, compared to playing with a different passive.

For the rest of us mere mortals it makes no discernable difference.

Of course it does, the numerical difference is there all the same. The only difference is that if I can parse say 120 on dark elf and only 105 on argonian you can respond "git good 120 is certainly possible on argonian", which is true but if I were good enough to get 120 on argonian I'd be getting 130+ on dark elf. The gap is always there and it is noticeable for anyone making an effort to optimize even of they are not at the top.

Your looking at a spreadsheet. I'm talking about playing in actual content. They are very different things. The difference is negligible in the latter.