What I predicted happened. The PvP mode in Vengeance is empty.

Getsugatenso · June 10

Melivar · June 10

It's funny how so many people care that Vengeance is empty when there are so many new things that most of the people who will play that mode are trying out.

It's here to stay and will be as populated at times as the non grey host version so please just go back and wait in your que.

Sylosi · June 10

Not sure why people expect Vengeance to be a success when PvP in this game is a barely populated failure.

IC basically empty for years outside of events.

BGs even when it was 3 teams and people wanted the queues split in various ways, devs said the playerbase was too small to split further. I presume that the number of regular BG players is even smaller now.

Cyrodiil, one "healthy" campaign, which is mostly just varying degrees of dead outside of a few hours of prime. And even prime is laughable, you have a population cap that is a fraction of what it was at the beginning of the game, which is why even when "poplocked" most of the map is dead, because it is far too large for the handful of people left playing.

ESO PvP is a miserable failure that mostly provides low skilled, uncompetitve and boring AF "PvP", which is why virtually no one plays it. Vengeance ain't going to change that failure.

spartaxoxo · June 10

I think it's telling that y'all are comparing it to the only regularly pop locked campaign rather than the campaigns it actually replaced.

It's got more activity than Blackreach or Ravenwatch did. And it's not a bad thing that overflow is breathing some life into IC after the population was killed by the telvar change.

SilverIce58 · June 10

Okay, now what?

Stamicka · June 10

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

ItsNotLiving · June 10

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

People are upset at the queue to get into grey host which is understandable since you can’t play in the IC while you wait now.

Bernz007 · June 10

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

It did take away the opportunity for them to better Cyrodiil as it was. Instead they went all in on Vengeance, which is the most watered down pvp content I've ever seen in any mmorpg (even worse than FFXIV). It's not even a finished product, so why be a guinea pig for them? What's even worse is they anticipate it being so full they may need to have another instance of it, which is comical. It will need players for it to survive, otherwise one faction will control map and make it not fun for any other alliance that lacks the players.

Stamicka · June 10

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

People are upset at the queue to get into grey host which is understandable since you can’t play in the IC while you wait now.

The queue was long even before Vengeance became permanent though.

Even when people had the ability to go to Blackreach while they waited, what was the point? It might’ve been fun for someone who enjoyed Cyrodiil sightseeing, but there was no action on that map. They’re only missing out on riding their mount around an empty map.

There’s not actually that many people who PvP anymore. Maybe ZOS should try to get the Grey Host population caps up by around 50 per alliance or so. That would help a lot.

JustLovely · June 10

Melivar wrote: »

It's funny how so many people care that Vengeance is empty when there are so many new things that most of the people who will play that mode are trying out.

It's here to stay and will be as populated at times as the non grey host version so please just go back and wait in your que.

Easy for you to say knowing there will never, ever, ever be a queue to get into vengeance because it's almost universally hated. Meanwhile, the PvP community gets hosed again if we can't login earlier than 15:00 EST because PvP is pop locked from 15:00-23:00 daily now, during the week, and will be worse on the weekends.

Time to bring back Blackreach.

ItsNotLiving · June 10

Stamicka wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

People are upset at the queue to get into grey host which is understandable since you can’t play in the IC while you wait now.

The queue was long even before Vengeance became permanent though.

Even when people had the ability to go to Blackreach while they waited, what was the point? It might’ve been fun for someone who enjoyed Cyrodiil sightseeing, but there was no action on that map. They’re only missing out on riding their mount around an empty map.

There’s not actually that many people who PvP anymore. Maybe ZOS should try to get the Grey Host population caps up by around 50 per alliance or so. That would help a lot.

I support raising the caps even if it lags. I’m sure we’re all used to the lag by now lol.

JustLovely · June 10

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Okay, now what?

Bring back Blackreach, that's what to do now.

ItsNotLiving · June 10

JustLovely wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Okay, now what?

Bring back Blackreach, that's what to do now.

Everyone on here loves vengeance because of “options” but don’t tell them you want the blackreach option.

JustLovely · June 10

Stamicka wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

People are upset at the queue to get into grey host which is understandable since you can’t play in the IC while you wait now.

The queue was long even before Vengeance became permanent though.

Even when people had the ability to go to Blackreach while they waited, what was the point? It might’ve been fun for someone who enjoyed Cyrodiil sightseeing, but there was no action on that map. They’re only missing out on riding their mount around an empty map.

There’s not actually that many people who PvP anymore. Maybe ZOS should try to get the Grey Host population caps up by around 50 per alliance or so. That would help a lot.

The queue is much longer now because they took away Blackreach.

Stamicka · June 10

Bernz007 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

It did take away the opportunity for them to better Cyrodiil as it was. Instead they went all in on Vengeance, which is the most watered down pvp content I've ever seen in any mmorpg (even worse than FFXIV). It's not even a finished product, so why be a guinea pig for them?

How does that work? What’s stopping them from improving PvP now that Vengeance is in the game?

Also why don’t you consider it a possibility that they can improve PvP by using Vengeance as a foundation? I’ve said it in the past, Vengeance is isolated from PvE, they can balance it however they want without consequences elsewhere. That’s not true of Grey Host.

Vengeance is an opportunity for them to create good, skill based, PvP specific balancing. It doesn’t have to be as it is now. I don’t know why they don’t take more advantage of it.

JustLovely · June 10

Stamicka wrote: »

Bernz007 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

It did take away the opportunity for them to better Cyrodiil as it was. Instead they went all in on Vengeance, which is the most watered down pvp content I've ever seen in any mmorpg (even worse than FFXIV). It's not even a finished product, so why be a guinea pig for them?

How does that work? What’s stopping them from improving PvP now that Vengeance is in the game?

Also why don’t you consider it a possibility that they can improve PvP by using Vengeance as a foundation? I’ve said it in the past, Vengeance is isolated from PvE, they can balance it however they want without consequences elsewhere. That’s not true of Grey Host.

Vengeance is an opportunity for them to create good, skill based, PvP specific balancing. It doesn’t have to be as it is now. I don’t know why they don’t take more advantage of it.

Vengeance gives ZOS, at least in their view, gives ZOS an excuse to ignore normal live cyrodiil for eternity now.

And another problem is, in no way what so ever does vengeance prepare a player for normal live PvP. There are no PvP skills required in vengeance, that's why the PvE community loves it so much.

SkaiFaith · June 10

ok

JustLovely · June 10

SkaiFaith wrote: »

ok

It's misdirection and misrepresenting information to present these two views as though they maintain equal support among the player base.

SeaGtGruff · June 10

Melivar wrote: »

It's funny how so many people care that Vengeance is empty when there are so many new things that most of the people who will play that mode are trying out.

It's here to stay and will be as populated at times as the non grey host version so please just go back and wait in your que.

I went to Cyrodiil-- Grey Host-- for a very brief visit this past weekend just to see what the Golden had for sale, but didn't stay to play at all. And it wasn't that I'm not interested in Cyrodiil, because I usually enjoy it a lot and stay for hours at a time even though I'm not very good at PvP. But with the Night Market being the current "thing" in the game, I've been spending most of my ESO playtime there. When the Night Market goes away next week, I'll go back to my usual activities, which include Cyrodiil.

My home campaign was Grey Host, but it got reset when Vengeance went live fulltime and all other campaigns but Grey Host were removed. I'll probably make Vengeance my home campaign for a month, because I've always been reluctant to spend any amount of time in a campaign that isn't my home campaign-- not that I'll ever be high enough on the leaderboard to have a chance at being crowned "Emperor for a moment," but at least I get some end-of-campaign rewards for earning enough AP in my home campaign. I want to give Vengeance enough of a fair chance to decide whether I'll stay with it or move back over to Grey Host, and if I don't make Vengeance my home campaign for a month then I'll never spend enough time in it to see.

Quoted post has been removed

Alternate spin: Another Vengeance hater in denial that some ESO PvPers prefer Vengeance, and desperate to loudly proclaim Vengeance DOA even though it hasn't been live for a full week yet. Maybe it will fail to draw (and retain) enough players to be viable, but let's give it a few months before trying to hold a funeral for it.

Stamicka · June 10

JustLovely wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Bernz007 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

It did take away the opportunity for them to better Cyrodiil as it was. Instead they went all in on Vengeance, which is the most watered down pvp content I've ever seen in any mmorpg (even worse than FFXIV). It's not even a finished product, so why be a guinea pig for them?

How does that work? What’s stopping them from improving PvP now that Vengeance is in the game?

Also why don’t you consider it a possibility that they can improve PvP by using Vengeance as a foundation? I’ve said it in the past, Vengeance is isolated from PvE, they can balance it however they want without consequences elsewhere. That’s not true of Grey Host.

Vengeance is an opportunity for them to create good, skill based, PvP specific balancing. It doesn’t have to be as it is now. I don’t know why they don’t take more advantage of it.

Vengeance gives ZOS, at least in their view, gives ZOS an excuse to ignore normal live cyrodiil for eternity now.

And another problem is, in no way what so ever does vengeance prepare a player for normal live PvP. There are no PvP skills required in vengeance, that's why the PvE community loves it so much.

I haven’t seen any evidence that ZOS is paying any less attention to normal Cyrodiil now compared to the past. It’s still almost no attention. Vengeance itself is at least an attempt to figure out how far they can push population caps up and what causes lag. That itself is attention to PvP, which is something.

ESO PvP in its current state is extremely low skill and casual anyway so what’s your point? Vengeance is just low skill in a different way. A few skills do transfer over between environments. However, if what you said was true, it wouldn’t matter anyway. If Vengeance is here to stay then they can just play Vengeance. They don’t need to be prepared for Grey Host.

ceruulean · June 10

JustLovely wrote: »

And another problem is, in no way what so ever does vengeance prepare a player for normal live PvP. There are no PvP skills required in vengeance, that's why the PvE community loves it so much.

So how does normal Cyrodiil and BG prepare a player for normal live PvP? You can have a PvP skill of 0 and queue for Greyhost or BGs.

amiiegee · June 10

Ofc it’s empty, it’s dead on arrival

CameraBeardThePirate · June 10

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

People are upset at the queue to get into grey host which is understandable since you can’t play in the IC while you wait now.

Who says you cant play IC while you wait?

The Tel-Var change only prevents you from starting a queue with TV on your person. If you want to play IC while you wait for Grey Host, port to IC, deposit TV, start the Grey Host queue. You can accept the queue when it pops no matter how much TV you have on you.

ItsNotLiving · June 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I somewhat supported Vengeance in the past, but as of now I have no interest because they never added more movement speed or snare removals. They also never lifted the AOE caps, added more complexity to skills, or increased the burst damage/tone down the healing massively.

If ZOS could make some of those changes I’d happily play it, but for whatever reason they don’t.

That being said, I don’t understand why everyone is so focused on how Vengeance never appears to have any bars. It doesn’t take anything away from you by existing. From what I’ve seen, Blackreach and Ravenwatch were dead even on weekends at this point. Blackreach didn’t even always fill during double AP.

Let the people who like Vengeance have their fun. It takes nothing away from you, but it provides them an accessible entry point into PvP.

People are upset at the queue to get into grey host which is understandable since you can’t play in the IC while you wait now.

Who says you cant play IC while you wait?

The Tel-Var change only prevents you from starting a queue with TV on your person. If you want to play IC while you wait for Grey Host, port to IC, deposit TV, start the Grey Host queue. You can accept the queue when it pops no matter how much TV you have on you.

Holy moly I got some bad info

tomofhyrule · June 10

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

Melivar wrote: »

It's funny how so many people care that Vengeance is empty when there are so many new things that most of the people who will play that mode are trying out.

It's here to stay and will be as populated at times as the non grey host version so please just go back and wait in your que.

Average Vengeance user in denial that its dead from th start

Alternate spin: Another Vengeance hater in denial that some ESO PvPers prefer Vengeance, and desperate to loudly proclaim Vengeance DOA even though it hasn't been live for a full week yet. Maybe it will fail to draw (and retain) enough players to be viable, but let's give it a few months before trying to hold a funeral for it.

Out of curiosity, for all Vengeance enjoyers in the chat:
If ZOS had instead released Vengeance along with both Grey Host and Blackreach, would that have been bad?

If people are sitting in GH queues that are 80+ players long, that shows interest in another standard-ruleset Cyrodiil. Or is the hope that those people would be going into Vengeance to boost those numbers?

I do wonder what the knock-on effects of this “new midsize PvP” thing they’ve said very little about will be - so far all we know it it will look like Cyrodiil but only like one keep. I’m sure the expectation is that players who want the standard Cyrodiil experience but without the horse riding simulator will favor that one, and that mode would also reduce the desire for GH since it’s a faster version of that.

…but it doesn’t exist yet.
ZOS really should have kept Blackreach as the “backup GH” until that other thing was ready. The one time Vengeance and GH were active together showed their populations don’t overlap much, so the cutting of the other campaigns came at the expense of GH’s overfill.

xR3ACTORx · June 10

Just here for the mental gymnastics

decairn · June 10

The hope from ZOS was that a decent number of usual Grey Host and Blackreach players would migrate to Vengeance, allowing removal of Blackreach and keep Grey Host levels same or better. Clearly not the case, Grey Host population increased as seen in bigger queues this week.

Melivar · June 10

I would have been fine with them keeping all the other options as well. When I PVP'd in the past it was normally on Blackreach.

While I enjoy Vengeance more, I don't think there is a reason to take things away from anyone. No idea if that was a performance/resource decision or what went into the choice to limit the options to 2.

Gabriel_H · June 10

Taken tonight at 20:30 UTC

This:

Is more players than this:

Gabriel_H · June 10

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Out of curiosity, for all Vengeance enjoyers in the chat:
If ZOS had instead released Vengeance along with both Grey Host and Blackreach, would that have been bad?

Nice strawman you have there. A someone who is not a fan of Vengeance, but who tolerates it so that I don't have to put up with class imbalance, ball groups, rubber banding, disconnects, trying four times to open a postern door (and many many other problems), let me just say: I couldn't care less about the question. The issue isn't, and never has been, that other modes of Cyrodiil exist, it's that they do not work.

I haven't been in Cyro since the release of sub-classing. It was a terrible experience for a pure-class on top of an already terrible experience for both the class and the performance. So why would I care if those campaigns exist or not? I have no opinion on it. Nobody I know who loves/likes/tolerates Vengeance has an opinion on whether there are 1, 2 or 500 standard rule Cyro campaigns. We care the campaign we are in functions.

tomofhyrule · June 10

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Taken tonight at 20:30 UTC

This:

Is more players than this:

Again.

How. Can. You. Guarantee. That?

Let's look at DC first. 1 bar in Vengeance = 0-100 players. Locked in GH is 120 players. Now, I may not be a mathemetician, but I was always under the impression that 120 > 100, so that means there are more DC in GH than Vengeance.

For the other two: 2 bars in Vengeance = 101-200 players. Locked in GH is 120 players. So, it is possible that there are up to 200 players in EP, which is greater than GH. That is true. But is it not also possible that EP in Vengeance has 110 players (so it would show two bars), which happens to be less than 120?

In every post you're making, you're seeing those bars and assuming that there's no way that two bars could mean less than the maximum. "Maximum" means just that - that is the most it will ever be, and it quite possibly means less than that.

That means all together, GH in those screenshots is capped at 360 across three alliances, whereas Vengeance could have anywhere from 201 to 500 across all three alliances, and is likely somewhere in the middle.

Regardless of the populations, the point for a lot of this is that Vengeance and Grey Host have different playerbases that do not really overlap much and The players who like Grey Host and not Vengeance have significantly fewer opportunities to get into Cyrodiil than they did before. No amount of arguments about the populations is going to change those facts. You are just as likely to get those people out of the GH queue and into Vengeance as you are to get the "I only play ESO solo and never do group content!" players to jump into the trial progs a week. If there are 80+ people in the queue for GH for any specific alliance, then those people are not able to play and would leave the game rather than join a mode they despise.
Blackreach needed to have stayed. At least until they released their 'small-scale' PvP mode. But they assumed that they could just force those people into Vengeance because "whatever, it's PvP, right?" which is not the way the players see it.