Ok, So lets say we got every single Daedric prince to fight to the death...

DarkStrifeYT · June 5

So if we got every single Daedric prince to fight to the death who would win? Like no immortality its last one standing. What do you think would win and how?

Soarora · June 5

Sheogorath, no contest. He has won every battle he’s had with other Princes except against Jyggalag but that’s no contest since yk… Sheogorath isn’t there for that. He is too unpredictable to strategize against.

BlueRaven · June 5

If Jyggalag is in it they win. They are canonically almost unstoppable.

If not, my top four is:

Hircene, Meridia, Malacath, and Mehrunes Dagon.

Although I am leaning into Merida beating Mehrunes Dagon, in the final. Since their sphere of light directly works against other princes.

Gabriel_H · June 5

Classic Elder Scrolls: Jyggalag - Can predict every outcome

Elder Scrolls Online: Ithelia - Can alter reality. Even a prince who can predict outcomes can't do so if they are not a prince.

AetherialXL · June 5

Hermaeus Mora has a pretty good chance since he probably knows what the other prince is going to do.

katanagirl1 · June 6

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Gabriel_H · June 6

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Jyggalag can calculate the future, Hermaeus Mora remembers the future, and Ithelia can change the future.

heimdall14_9 · June 6

Ithelia would just make sure she won 😂

SilverBride · June 6

My vote is also for Sheogorath.

spartaxoxo · June 6

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Yes. Mora knows about future timelines which is how he's able to defeat Ithelia. He can't walk them and change in and out like she can. But he can see them ahead of time and get a good sense of what he should in any given one. The two of them had an all out war and he smoked her in almost all the timelines.

Gabriel_H · June 6

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Yes. Mora knows about future timelines which is how he's able to defeat Ithelia. He can't walk them and change in and out like she can. But he can see them ahead of time and get a good sense of what he should in any given one. The two of them had an all out war and he smoked her in almost all the timelines.

That isn't what happened. Firstly there aren't multiple timelines for Mora. There is one and Mora, existing outside of time, seeks to enure that timeline unfolds as he wants. He is not omniscient though, and random chance is a thing that exists that can derail his plans and change the future he has seen and wants.

Ithelia was a direct threat to the timeline as she could unravel everything, as she unlike Mora, could see multiple futures, and bring about any of them. The confrontation that Mora had with Ithelia was not a 1 on 1. It took the combined armies of 4 princes - Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala - just to subdue her so they could drain her of her power.

Zodiarkslayer · June 6

The question here is what are the rules are.
Can two or more princes team up to defeat another? That would make a key difference to a simple power ranking.
Canonically Jyggalag could only be defeated and warped into Uncle Sheo by all other Princes working together.
It also took three princes to take down Ithelia, not just Moron Hermaeus.

heimdall14_9 · June 6

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

The question here is what are the rules are.
Can two or more princes team up to defeat another? That would make a key difference to a simple power ranking.
Canonically Jyggalag could only be defeated and warped into Uncle Sheo by all other Princes working together.
It also took three princes to take down Ithelia, not just Moron Hermaeus.

even still Ithelia would just par up with Jyggalag and end up winning as you cant foresee something as its changing lol 😂

Toanis · June 6

Depends on the battlefield, the weapons and the winning condition.

It also depends on whether worship increases the power of a prince, and whether a soul given willingly or even unknowingly into the hands of a prince weighs more than one being ripped out on an altar. Sanguine might actually have the right idea...

I'm inclined to give the win to Namira. She is to Sithis what Auriel is to Anuiel and eventually time will run out and everything will again be eternal all-consuming darkness. Anything the other princes can do will only hasten the inevitable. Maybe it'll be a tie between her and Hermaeus Mora with them ending up bickering for the rest of eternity whether darkness or fate has won.

If we're talking about a Marvel-style wrestling match, though, then no matter how many pairs of biceps the others have, the final battle will between an endless mass of tentacles and an endless horde of putrid skeevers.

Zodiarkslayer · June 6

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

even still Ithelia would just par up with Jyggalag and end up winning as you cant foresee something as its changing lol 😂

You are missing my point. When one contender is so strong, that it takes two or more to defeat him, then the only strategy for any of the other contenders is to ally against the strongest and take them out collectively. The lore supports my argument, because this is what happened to both Ithelia and Jyggalag. Which, btw. did not get erased, but altered, for lack of a better word.

Also, Daedric Princes aren't immortal because they gulped down some potion or consumed the heart of a real god, like the Tribunal did (bloody cheaters). No. They are part of the very fabric of reality. They are the spirits that helped to create the Elder Scrolls Universe. In their realms their will is absolute.
The physical forms, like in Mora's case the slob of tentacles, are just a housing for the spirit. And the spirit that is Hermaeus Mora is not just immortal, it is eternal. As are all his brethren. To which also the Aedra count. They are all et-Ada.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods

Even the one god that is mortal, Shor, is still eternal and keeps coming back in various forms, known to scholars as Shezzarines.

heimdall14_9 · June 6

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

even still Ithelia would just par up with Jyggalag and end up winning as you cant foresee something as its changing lol 😂

You are missing my point. When one contender is so strong, that it takes two or more to defeat him, then the only strategy for any of the other contenders is to ally against the strongest and take them out collectively. The lore supports my argument, because this is what happened to both Ithelia and Jyggalag. Which, btw. did not get erased, but altered, for lack of a better word.

Also, Daedric Princes aren't immortal because they gulped down some potion or consumed the heart of a real god, like the Tribunal did (bloody cheaters). No. They are part of the very fabric of reality. They are the spirits that helped to create the Elder Scrolls Universe. In their realms their will is absolute.
The physical forms, like in Mora's case the slob of tentacles, are just a housing for the spirit. And the spirit that is Hermaeus Mora is not just immortal, it is eternal. As are all his brethren. To which also the Aedra count. They are all et-Ada.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods

Even the one god that is mortal, Shor, is still eternal and keeps coming back in various forms, known to scholars as Shezzarines.

i get all this but IF THEY could die

DarkStrifeYT wrote: »

So if we got every single Daedric prince to fight to the death who would win? Like no immortality its last one standing. What do you think would win and how?

your missing that this is fake and taken under the impression that everyone had only 1 life and could die , im not going to argue IF'S with facts but anyway have a great day/night
Ithelia and Jyggalag still my last two standing with Ithelia being faster at changing the future than Jyggalag foreseeing it

agelonestar · June 6

Meridia is the one true god and they won’t stand for this blasphemy!

spartaxoxo · June 6

Gabriel_H wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Yes. Mora knows about future timelines which is how he's able to defeat Ithelia. He can't walk them and change in and out like she can. But he can see them ahead of time and get a good sense of what he should in any given one. The two of them had an all out war and he smoked her in almost all the timelines.

That isn't what happened. Firstly there aren't multiple timelines for Mora. There is one and Mora, existing outside of time, seeks to enure that timeline unfolds as he wants. He is not omniscient though, and random chance is a thing that exists that can derail his plans and change the future he has seen and wants.

Ithelia was a direct threat to the timeline as she could unravel everything, as she unlike Mora, could see multiple futures, and bring about any of them. The confrontation that Mora had with Ithelia was not a 1 on 1. It took the combined armies of 4 princes - Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala - just to subdue her so they could drain her of her power.

Yeah. It is. He saw the "threads of fate" and knew he'd need the Vestige to do their thing to win. Just as he saw the need for an alliance with other Daedric princes before. He can see things, he just can't alter or change paths the way she can.

As the One Who Knows and Ur-Daedra, Hermaeus Mora is said to be able to see all the infinite paths of possibility arrayed before his gaze, though even he doesn't necessarily always know the "final path".

Gabriel_H · June 6

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Yes. Mora knows about future timelines which is how he's able to defeat Ithelia. He can't walk them and change in and out like she can. But he can see them ahead of time and get a good sense of what he should in any given one. The two of them had an all out war and he smoked her in almost all the timelines.

That isn't what happened. Firstly there aren't multiple timelines for Mora. There is one and Mora, existing outside of time, seeks to enure that timeline unfolds as he wants. He is not omniscient though, and random chance is a thing that exists that can derail his plans and change the future he has seen and wants.

Ithelia was a direct threat to the timeline as she could unravel everything, as she unlike Mora, could see multiple futures, and bring about any of them. The confrontation that Mora had with Ithelia was not a 1 on 1. It took the combined armies of 4 princes - Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala - just to subdue her so they could drain her of her power.

Yeah. It is. He saw the "threads of fate" and knew he'd need the Vestige to do their thing to win. Just as he saw the need for an alliance with other Daedric princes before. He can see things, he just can't alter or change paths the way she can

Like I said, he can only see one future, not multiple ones like Ithelia. He can work to change that future, but that doesn't alter he can only see one.

He didn't see a need for other Daedric princes, he knew he couldn't take her on his own, which is definitely not:

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The two of them had an all out war and he smoked her in almost all the timelines.

spartaxoxo · June 6

Gabriel_H wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Yes. Mora knows about future timelines which is how he's able to defeat Ithelia. He can't walk them and change in and out like she can. But he can see them ahead of time and get a good sense of what he should in any given one. The two of them had an all out war and he smoked her in almost all the timelines.

That isn't what happened. Firstly there aren't multiple timelines for Mora. There is one and Mora, existing outside of time, seeks to enure that timeline unfolds as he wants. He is not omniscient though, and random chance is a thing that exists that can derail his plans and change the future he has seen and wants.

Ithelia was a direct threat to the timeline as she could unravel everything, as she unlike Mora, could see multiple futures, and bring about any of them. The confrontation that Mora had with Ithelia was not a 1 on 1. It took the combined armies of 4 princes - Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala - just to subdue her so they could drain her of her power.

Yeah. It is. He saw the "threads of fate" and knew he'd need the Vestige to do their thing to win. Just as he saw the need for an alliance with other Daedric princes before. He can see things, he just can't alter or change paths the way she can

Like I said, he can only see one future, not multiple ones like Ithelia. He can work to change that future, but that doesn't alter he can only see one.

He didn't see a need for other Daedric princes, he knew he couldn't take her on his own, which is definitely not:

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The two of them had an all out war and he smoked her in almost all the timelines.

Outsmarting her so that she is always defeated is smoking her. He always had a plan that left her back against the wall and her forces defeated. In multiple timelines.

Described as the ever-seeing-eyes that constantly scry fate to see what is destined to happen next, Mora is likened to a great eye either suspended above or always submerged in fate's ocean, gazing into the depths to track the currents of fate. Thus he is called the "Master of the Tides of Fate", not because he controls fate, but because he knows its every possibility and outcome intimately, perceiving all that may come to pass. As the One Who Knows and Ur-Daedra, Hermaeus Mora is said to be able to see all the infinite paths of possibility arrayed before his gaze, though even he doesn't necessarily always know the "final path". . . Mora's reach and gaze even extend beyond the veil of reality and what is and into possibilities that may be or might have been.

Hermaeus Mora, like Ithelia, can perceive the Many Paths, and is even able to locate specific realities with the qualities he's looking for within them. As Ur-Daedra and the One Who Knows, Hermaeus Mora is said to be able to see all the infinite paths of possibility arrayed before his gaze, though even he can't always see the "final path".

Seriously Mora was THE Prince of Fate in the franchise before ESO. But he was never depicted as controlling it to the same degree as her but rather as an all seeing eye that could gaze on all the possibilities of fate. He can see them but can't change them in the way that Ithelia can.

Quotes are from UESP

FlameDark · June 6

I have made a list of the 3 most likely candidates. Two of which I have chosen due to their station as Ur-dra. What is an Ur-dra? Well they are the oldest and most powerful of the daedric princes. The title is not bequeathed to just any daedric prince, and the title must be acknowledged by the other princes.

I- Hermaous Mora: Is titled as an Ur-dra according to the Khajiit. In a fight I doubt he would actually do much as his nature is more collecting then conflict. I think everyone so far has explained why he is a contender very well.

II- Jygalagg: We all know his story and how he turned into Sheogorath as the threat from his realm was so great. This was the first act in which every Daedric Prince worked together under a common cause. However, he relies on mathematical certainty and cold logic. So unpredictable elements such as the Prisoner of Prophecy is basically his achilles heel. But it is considered correct that the other Princes feared his growing influence.

III- Nocternal I am going to go more in depth with the actual lore around Nocternal, as I feel like ESO's portrayal did not do her justice. Firstly... Nocternal was the first and oldest of the daedric princes and is actually apart of the original void. She was around before all others. Yes I know that ESO did her dirty with her... absolutely terrible Summerset arc. But in the lore she really doesn't care much about Nirn or her even her own followers. So please excuse that... terrible storyline that made her out to be a cartoon villain.

Nocturnal is accorded the title Ur-dra by nearly all the Royalty of Oblivion. As the mother of night, she claims to be an aspect of the original Void itself, and it is generally deemed best to fortify this declaration in one’s evening prayers.

Secondly... She is also helped Reman explore beyond the Mundus without any interference by any of the other Daedric Princes, by basically telling them all to sit down and shut up, as she's the oldest, and she gets what she wants.

The Sixteen-Plus Princes of Tumult lent their nymic oaths in their first display of coalition since the Fall of Lyg in the previous kalpa. Conjecture points to some machinations of Nocturnal, who took on her mantle of Ur-Dra of Oblivion, and it was by her primogeniture that Reman was able to pursue his cosmic acquisitions without further censure.

What's interesting about it is that 1) it's the first time the Daedric Princes did something together since cursing Jyggalag and it was Nocternal that forced them. 2) Primogeniture means: the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn legitimate child to inherit all or most of their parent's estate, as well as succeed their parent as the ruler of a state. If the tales are true, then the "parent's estate" is the primordial void.

Also keep in the mind her realm encompasses ALL shadows, including those in other Prince's realms. Yet unlike Jygalagg she does not have any inclination or insatiable urge to conquer them.

So those are my 3. Tbh most daedric princes wouldn't care for fighting each other anyways. So even if you put them all in a room (except Jygalagg) most would probably shrug and leave anyways. Or eat popcorn while watching the others who are willing to fight, throw hands.

NoticeMeArkay · June 6

In a fight to death with no immortality involved?

Boethia.

I don't understand how apparently nobody even dropped their name yet. It's Boethia.

Arcturus · June 6

Everyone casually forgets that Ithelia is the only one truly capable of killing them. They're not independent beings with free will, they're fundamental parts of reality itself.

As long as reality exists, so do they. Ithelia alone has the power to force reality to collapse, causing them to cease to exist entirely.

Additionally, Mora didn't "smoke" anybody. He literally had to ask for help and assemble a coalition of Princes just to deal with Ithelia. On his own, all he could do was foresee the catastrophe and he was completely incapable of stopping it without outside assistance.

We even get a Mora vs. Ithelia fight in the story, and Mora couldn't do anything to her. The narrative makes it pretty clear that he wasn't operating on her level. If Mora could have handled Ithelia by himself, there would have been no need for him to recruit half the Daedric roster to contain her in the first place.

I think it's fair to say that a lot of people are just picking their favorite Prince here without really thinking through the implications or applying any consistent logic.

BardokRedSnow · June 6

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I thought Hermaeus Mora could see many possibly futures, or I am I confusing him with Ithelia now.

Jyggalag can calculate the future, Hermaeus Mora remembers the future, and Ithelia can change the future.

Ithelia lost already to a handful of daedric princes. If her power was fully realized sure but we've already seen that scenario play out lol.

BardokRedSnow · June 6

Arcturus wrote: »

Everyone casually forgets that Ithelia is the only one truly capable of killing them. They're not independent beings with free will, they're fundamental parts of reality itself.

As long as reality exists, so do they. Ithelia alone has the power to force reality to collapse, causing them to cease to exist entirely.

Additionally, Mora didn't "smoke" anybody. He literally had to ask for help and assemble a coalition of Princes just to deal with Ithelia. On his own, all he could do was foresee the catastrophe and he was completely incapable of stopping it without outside assistance.

We even get a Mora vs. Ithelia fight in the story, and Mora couldn't do anything to her. The narrative makes it pretty clear that he wasn't operating on her level. If Mora could have handled Ithelia by himself, there would have been no need for him to recruit half the Daedric roster to contain her in the first place.

I think it's fair to say that a lot of people are just picking their favorite Prince here without really thinking through the implications or applying any consistent logic.

I think that the prince's sphere of influence, who they can gain the favor of and manipulate etc considering this is how daedra operate counts. Saying oh he had help etc doesn't make this less fair of a fight, especially in a free for all scenario. The fact that Hermaeus Mora can rope in other Daedric Princes shows despite her power her sphere has shorter reach than the Abyssal Cephaliarch, and there's a reason he's so feared and respected.

BardokRedSnow · June 6

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

In a fight to death with no immortality involved?

Boethia.

I don't understand how apparently nobody even dropped their name yet. It's Boethia.

Because while powerful as all daedric princes are she/he isn't quite a force of nature on a metaphysical level in comparison to someone like Jyggalag/Sheogorath whose sphere is aligned with that of the Aurbis itself, namely order vs chaos, anu vs padomay etc. Not to say Boethiah isn't strong, but Boethiah is one of the daedra who I believe gained their true nature by observing the creation of Nirn as suggested in a book I can't recall completely, but its obvious when you look at their spheres.

For instance beings like Molag Bal, that encompasses concepts like dominance, the r word I probably can't say here, slavery. These things wouldn't have originally existed until Nirn was created, and individually would be used by the elves as concepts to describe what Lorkhan did to create the world. How they describe him and his followers as demons, this world a prison etc. Then there's Boethiah whose sphere is a combination of both sides of the story of Lorkhan. Shor/Lorkhan and everything inbetween.

On one hand Boethiah is a he, masculine, represented as a warrior clad in armor, fierce and without mercy. He holds tournaments and tests all the races in an arena in their domain and awards that warrior goldbrand, a sword forged in dragonfire which many here know pieces of akatosh, or the greater aka spirit of many names, are tied to Lorkhan. This is referenced in c0da, the idea of time and space being the same and he being the other side of the coin of akatosh. But also the marukhati selective even grafted on lorkhan in place of Auri-El during a dragonbreak because they didnt want no frilly elf nonsense on their dragon god lol. Im not kidding.

Remember also that the ghosts of Shor, Shezarrine are often Dragonborn. Wulfarth and Talos at the least (yes I know about the book that claims he wasn't originally, Arcturian Heresy), arguably Pelinal Whitestrake though he claims he wasn't Shezarrine for what that's worth, arguably the Dragonborn who "walks like Talos" and many think will mantle him. At the very least two of his most famous examples certainly were, and we do stand and observe to learn a thu'um similarly to how Wulfarth does in old legend of how Nords lost their years.

Anyway, if that sounds like a stretch, the other half of Boethiah, the she, feminine, is a cunning figure, dark and clad in cloth with a great sword and awards those who betray their closest friend the black armor of ebony, the blood of Shor. This is the other half of the legend.

Boethiah embodies both Shor and Lorkhan, both betrayer/imprisoner and the honorable warrior chieftain of the Nords. Lorkhan/Shor was originally a snake in concept before eso decided he was a fox, Michael Kirkbride referenced that in his Shor son of Shor before it was retconned. So the rebellious fist with a snake on it as her symbol is fitting. This, the ebony mail and the dragon flame sword shows who Boethiah is, is wrapped up in the creation of Nirn itself.

If anyone still doubts this, remember the story of how Trinimac became Malacath, yet another example of a daedric prince whose sphere puts them beneath others; Boethiah literally made him who he is because of he and his people's different perspective and story of how Lorkhan tricked the gods into making this Prison. She deceived him and consumed Trinimac, literally or figuratively who knows and told his people a different story of Lorkhan. Simultaneously leading to the creation of orsimer, trinimac's followers, and chimer, followers of Veloth.

All simply because Trinimac was talking *** about her man lol.

Boethiah is my favorite daedric prince because of her close tie to Shor/Lorkhan as a Nord fan and in game priest of Lorkhan. But her sphere and those daedra whose spheres can be tied to Nirn's story so closely are why I believe they are lesser of the Daedric Princes. Those like Nocturnal, and even Namira who Im surprised to not see mentioned here much since she has so much overlap with Nocturnal and is also a primordial force within the void itself, are imo far above the likes of Hircine, Mephala, Molag Bal, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon and so on.

The more primordial they are the more likely they are to exist at the top of the food chain. Or, exclude themselves from the food chain entirely.

Soarora · June 7

Every time I’ve seen this argument, I see people say it’s Hermaeus because he has a lot of knowledge. But that doesn’t mean he knows everything by default. All the knowledge in the world can’t let you predict Madness incarnate.

What I have not seen is other Princes and Ithelia. I admit, I block out Ithelia from my brain. I suppose unless we get more lore saying otherwise (I hope we do because so far she seems overpowered?) then sure, full power Ithelia could win if she’s able to control other Princes in her weaving of Fate. Jumping through timelines sideways I’m not sure would help against Sheogorath though, since he very well could have vastly different actions in each as opposed to variations of the same thing.

Jyggalag cannot predict the future on his own. That was a part of his Library. That’s like saying someone who works out complex simulations using a super computer could do it on their own.

Edit: Do remember that Jyggalag ALSO had to be taken down by multiple Princes but because he was winning against them, conquering their realms, not because they were just scared of him like with Ithelia. Sheogorath is just the inverse of the same person, so I would think he is also powerful enough to do that and just doesn’t want to. As long as Jyggalag’s conquering was a property of his strength and not a property of Order versus the other spheres.

Toanis · June 7

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The more primordial they are the more likely they are to exist at the top of the food chain. Or, exclude themselves from the food chain entirely.

The thing is quantifying the power that comes with seniority, and whether there are other sources of power. And of course evening the playing field. How do you "kill" the very essence of nothingness?

If we give everyone a club and HP equal to their power level (and only alow 1vs1 of course) we still have to determine their current power level.

Meridia started as a splinter of Magnus who is on the same innate power level as Namira. So she started as a far lesser being and lost some of her essence to the creation of Nirn. Did the power she gained since then from worship push her level beyond that of Namira who only ever was worshipped by a few wackos? And what counts as worship? Is every thief hiding in the dark giving power to Nocturnal? Is every drink, every song, every dance actually a prayer to Sanguine?

If worship has no benefit besides stroking their ego, Namira will win with 1 HP left against Nocturnal or Hermaus Mora. Otherwise, Sanguine will likely have farmed far more HP than anyone else and actually had fun doing so.

But looking at the sheer madness of the whole setup and the essays we write about it, maybe Sheogorath has already won.